Aamzing to put so much of a thought process into this as issue instead of other issues. I enjoy all Hard Rocks in the state. I do not play table games and enjoys slots and the locations. Who cares if it it has poker-blackjack -even if added roulette or sports betting. It helps the state it does not bring the excessive crime people cry about. The problem in Florida is so sad it has a house that sits and can not bring itself to the new world thinking. While Jersey and Deleware think what we can do to bring in more money for our budget our state thinks this is what????

Even thought we have brought several industries into Florida, our economy is still based on tourism. A lot of those visitors want to be able to gamble on their vacations. This is especially true for people from Europe. As long as the gambling is limited to Casinos and controlled, it is a good idea. It will provide more revenue to the state, counties and cities where the casinos are. The increased amount of visitors who are attracted to Florida with casinos will also help the other attractions that the state has to offer in the daytime.
The need for additional law enforcement is paid for with the gambling revenue with plenty of money to spare to increase funding for the rest of the states needs not to mention that the additional law enforcement is additional jobs for local residents along with the jobs in the casinos.

i agree with steve

i agree with steve

i agree with steve

Good thoughts, folks.

We should compare what we do with other states. (Hope the Miami paper isn't reading.)

Good thoughts, folks.

We should compare what we do with other states. (Hope the Miami paper isn't reading.)

Class III gaming was voted for in Miami/Dade and Broward counties before the Seminoles had class III. If Seminoles can have class III table games how is it parimutals in south Florida can not, after it was actually voted in ? If class III is tables as Seminoles claim. Let others in Florida have table games and State will make much more money than from Seminoles, those figures are a drop in the bucket compared to other casinos and parts of the country. Seven casinos and they want to give the State how much ? Check and see how much Conn. gets from casinos ?

For starters, fair would be the bozos in the FL legislature making the pari-mutual taxes reasonable. It's like Orlando and the N. Florida bible thumpers wanted to punish the pari-mutuals for our county residents voting for Class III slots.

When a reasonable tax is established, part of the Seminole Compact should include taxing the Seminoles on slots at the same rate.

I believe the Dept. of the Interior says that in order to have a compact with any tribe, some type of exclusivity is included - that's why the Seminoles were given the card games.

You could continue to allow the Seminoles the card games and perhaps allow the pari-mutuals as well, with a max bet of $5. The Seminoles minimum stake is $10 on slow days, so a $5 max at the pari-mutuals would hardly be competition, but should give the pari-mutuals additional revenue. Heck $10 minimum is rare at Hard Rock anyway, so maybe even a $10 max for the pari-mutuals.

I think it's all a moot point anyway. Regardless of what Florida thinks, the Dept. of the Interior okayed and published the Compact and I don't think you will see them void the agreement.

It wasn't fair for the legislature to expect the Seminoles to wait until 2009 to discuss a compact. They should keep the tables, and the state should work on getting a better deal if the $100M is too low.

As for the parimutuels, they promised us $1B for education if we voted for slots. They never asked us to vote on table games, so there's no reason to give them that.

I think the state should work out something with the slot taxes that encourages the tracks to make a bigger investment in the area and generate more money for the state. Maybe a flat tax, or a tiered system where the tracks keep more profits over a certain threshold.

Whatever they do, I don't think the current situation is unfair to the parimutuels. It's not our fault that racing and jai alai have declined in popularity.

I think the law reads that the Seminoles are entitled to the same games as the State is allowed, that is why they were going to be allowed slots by the Feds. The only way the State could get any type of payment was for eclusivity of some type, they can not be taxed. As for the pari-mutuals, yes they were hurting before, that was the whole Idea of voting for the slots in the first place to keep the tracks in operation.Now we are just going to let them go under ? There is no way they can pay the State what they want and still compete the way it is set up now.
And all they money the Seminoles are taking in why is it that they are not hiring the dealers full time, most of them are part time status. Well I guess benefits would be less expensive if you have all part timers.

I really don't think any of us that voted for the pari-mutuals to have slots did it solely because it was going to generate revenue for the state. Sure the revenue is a legit factor, but it's the same argument that I voted for the lottery for education money as well, lol!

As residents we still have to face the fact that our economy is primarily generated from tourism. Jai-alai is a unique sport almost to Florida only and well Gulfstream at one time hosted several premier horse racing events. I think part of the decline is the availability of so many forms of gambling now. If both Jai-alai and Gulfstream offered slots, poker and card games, then the tourism draw is also there for the races.

Casinos aren't the big draw that they used to be, since so many states allow gambling now. However pari-mutuals like Jai-alai and Gulfstream should have an advantage to offer games and races - something Hard Rock can't do. It's a matter of them promoting themselves correctly.

On the other hand Hard Rock has the advantage of name recognition and hotels on site. So both Hard Rock and pari-mutuals have a unique competitive edge.

What would happen if Las Vegas taxed every hotel at a different rate? Just doesn't make sense. They need an equal playing field and then let the smartest management decide who survives. It's certainly a fact that Hard Rock isn't known for their customer hospitality.

As soon as class III slots were approved in Broward, the Seminoles were entitled under Federal law to the same class III slots. They did not need to cut a deal with the state for slots anymore or pay any taxes, since you cannot tell the Seminoles they can't have a form of gambling that the state allows. People who think a "slots-only" deal with the tribe will work do not understand the laws. The tribe will say F-U to a slots-only deal. They are automatically entitled to that much. For a deal where the state gets a cut the tribe needs to get something they don't already automatically get. And what they want and cut the deal with the givernor on is table games. That's why we will never have a "level playing field" as people say. The Federal laws were set up this way intentionally to benefit the tribes. And if you allowed table games at the pari-mutuels then again, the tribe is entitled to them automatically. They would not even need a deal with the state at that point to run their table games and would have no reason to cut the state in for a cent. To get tax revenue from the tribe they must have something the other don't have.

The pari-mutuel's tax should be lowered, 50% is ridiculous.

Just for the record seven slot parlors in PA. HAD $1.6 billion in gross rvenue last year, paid state 55 percent tax rate $888.6 million last year. W.V. Casinos pay state 42 percent rate. Two casinos in Conn.paid more than $427 million in 2006.

Seminole slot parlors took in $1.6 BILLION in 2006

festis,
very good, now count how many indian casinos are in PA.....zero. If there were, the STATE casinos would be making less.
The tax rate, whether it be tribe or state run casinos, is negotiated by that state and the private company/tribe. The rate at which the seminoles paid prior to the compact was due to the fact the state didn't want to negotiate (Jeb Bush)...now look where you're at. You're looking at the racinos thinking "you promised us X when we voted for you" now they're complaining about THEIR deal and laying people off left and right. What does that have to do with the seminoles? Zero.

The thing about the compact that was signed by Crist, Supreme Court ruled was not valid. Years ago when Florida and California attempted to close tribal gaming operations, tribes sued in Federal court, Seminole vs Butterworth (1979) and California vs Cabazon Band (1987). In both rulings the courts said if state law criminally prohibits a form of gambling, then the tribes within the state may not engage in that form. However if state law regulates a form of gambling, then the tribes within the state may engage in that gaming free of state control. To this date it is still illegal to have Black Jack in the State of Florida

Festis,

When Broward County approved "Las Vegas" slots, that is Class III gaming. Even though once again the whackos in N. Florida thought we were idiots and meant the Class II video pull tabs. Luckily even being a poorly worded amendment the rest of the FL legislature knew "Las Vegas" meant Class III.

Class III encompasses full scale gaming, making it legal in the eyes of the Feds for the tribe to have blackjack.

Personally if I were the Seminole tribe, I would say screw the state at this point (since they are trying to humor the Feds and negotiate) and put in full scale gaming. That would send the idiots in FL legislature for a loop.

Black Jack is still not leagal in Florida, that is why the pari-mutals do not have black jack. That was what they were hoping for also. The same reason craps and roulette are not played in California even though yes they are class III, still not regulated or approved by the States.

KCK what you said is not accurate. The vote was for class III slots only. That does not open all types of class III gaming for the tribe. If that were the case then the tribes would have had blackjack for years, because dog racing, horse racing and jai-alai are defined as class III gaming...even though they are pari-mutuels. So FL has had some type of class III gaming for years, but that has not meant that the Seminoles are entitled to ALL types of class III gaming.

It doesn't matter what the particular game is, Class III was approved in Broward County. Broward County approved it specifically for slots at pari-mutuals, but once any type of Class III gaming is allowed in the state, the tribe is legally allowed it.

Get over thinking the state of Florida can control the Seminoles, they can't. The Seminoles are only negotiating with the state as requested by the Feds. The state of Florida or any state, does not have any jurisdiction on federally held land.

Sorry you are wrong, Wrong,

Class III GAMING. Pari-mutuel is a type of betting, it is NOT a game.

I for one have been waiting for years for BJ in Florida, have a lot of friends working for Seminoles, but if you think State is helpless think again, if they stop patrons for gambling because the state says it is not legal it wont matter how many tables they have if no one is going there

I for one have been waiting for years for BJ in Florida, have a lot of friends working for Seminoles, but if you think State is helpless think again, if they stop patrons for gambling because the state says it is not legal it wont matter how many tables they have if no one is going there

Okay KCK let me PROVE you are wrong. I cut and pasted the below from the Dept of Treasury/IRS website:

ITG FAQ #14 Answer-What is Class III gaming?

Class III gaming consists of card games played against the house, slot machines, dog and horse racing, jai alai, and all other types of casino gaming. The National Indian Gaming Commission's (NIGC's) authority includes review and approval of Class III gaming management contracts. Class III gaming is regulated by compacts negotiated between tribes and states.

See for yourself at:

http://www.irs.gov/govt/tribes/article/0,,id=183123,00.html

Now go tell them they're wrong.

Hey Wrong , I've seen the gaming class posted elsewhere suprised to see it at IRS. Could you imagine if they went after all the employees for participating in illegal gaming. As I am sure IRS knows who works there.

So the IRS counts horse & dog racing and jai-alai as class III, but notice they don't mention pari-mutuel do they????

In Florida horse and dog racing plus jai-alai are pari-mutuels and regulated by Florida as pari-mutuels. You have to have a licensed facility to engage in that type of betting.

I suppose a really creative Indian tribe could figure out how to make odds on each black jack hand as to whether you bust, get 21 etc. - but I would imagine that would get kinda tedious after awhile.

On the other hand, you could in theory do horse/dog racing and jai-alai as a non pari-mutuel bet.

27 Pari-Mutuels facilities or 7 Indian Casinos. Who could produce more revenue for the State ?

The pari-mutuels would by far generate more revenue and create more jobs. Plus the pari-mutuels have been a regulated, tax paying, law abiding industry in this state since the 1920's. How could the lawmakers not consider them? They should not only consider them, they should protect them. It's the righteous thing to do. There is more to protect and more future opportunities with the pari-mutuels.

Can anyone imagine if the pari-mutuels started hosting illegal games like blackjack or anything without approval by the state (just as the Seminoles have) their license would be revoked and be shut down immediately. How can the State just sit their and allow the Seminoles to go on and operate as the compact was valid. They are operating an illegal gambling establishment. That's not right.

As far as what is fair, I think it's obvious for me. Let the Seminoles run the same games as the pari-mutuels but of course they would be tax exempt and legal and allow all the pari-mutuels to run class III slots and card games with a reasonable tax rate based on a fair system that would allow the pari-mutuels to even get off the ground with it. A $3 million annual license fee along with the 50% tax rate will not cut it. That's completely unfair.

And it's unfair to Florida to let billions of potential tax dollars from tourists (that we all pay to attract in the first place) to just float off to sea on the cruises to nowhere or up the creek to all the Biloxi casinos. You don't hear Crist saying anything about how the pari-mutuels industry has been impacted in the past and will be more and more in the future. He is turning his back on a huge industry here. An industry that has provided jobs and tax revenue for over 3/4 a century. Long before the Seminoles even started their stinky little bingo halls.

It is long overdue and well deserved for the pari-mutuels all over the state to host casinos. Why do leaders get so quiet in times like this? Because they are wrong. They know they are and the press would hold them accountable so they hide to avoid the truth. The truth is, it is criminal and unfair.

Couldn't agree with you more Ricard, and it looks like house may be leaning that way. We will know soon.