oh no .... you are absolutely doing the right thing .....

were it up to me, every pit bull in the world would require sterilization ... the breed would simply die off.

NO Child's life is worth it.

So the real story is, you have a dog that you are caring for that isn't yours, and you would prefer to have this dog gone before the baby comes home? There is nothing wrong with that, especially if you admit that you don't have the time to devote to making this dog a safe and socialized member of the family.

What does the dogs breed have to do with anything, other than stirring up more emotion? As a reporter, you just fell right into what makes folks paranoid. If it were a Dalmatian or Labrador that you were caring for, would you have written this piece at all?

In the case of pit bulls, it is my opinion that extinction is a viable option that should be explored.

A Dalmatian, maybe. I know enough about the breed to know that they are a tough fit for families. A Lab, I might not worry about as much, though I've seen a couple of stories that lead me to think they could be a problem too.

A lap dog, I wouldn't worry about at all, even though lap dogs are the only ones that have ever bitten me personally.

I'd be lying if I said the fact that this is a pit bull doesn't factor into why I'm paranoid.

I work at a veterinary hospital and with many rescue organizations. I am appalled at how many people are treating thier animals as a disposable item. You made a commitment to take care of this dog for a family member, therefore this dog is YOUR family member. You will need to find a responsible home for this dog if you cannot take care of it. The thought that you are going to possibly take this pet to the shelter and if it is not adopted in a short time, it will be euthanized is beyond words. So, I really hope that as your child grows up and then asks for a dog, that you will have to tell him that you threw away one that he could have grown up with.

Love the video stats on "only 9 children per year killed" by pit bulls. Where are the stats on how many children are injured? By the way, how the hell did you wind up with a pit bull in the first place? Are you a drug dealer or an idiot? No amount of time or love or training will change the fact pit bulls have historically been bred to fight/attack, and you will never know what or when something is going to trigger that instinct. It is their nature, and man is the only animal dumb enough to think he can change nature.

Monica,

You raise important issues. First, I didn't make a commitment to take care of the dog. That's part of a long family backstory I won't get into, but be assured, I didn't say "Okay, I'll take care of this dog for you."

You said: "You will need to find a responsible home for this dog if you cannot take care of it." And you are right. I have no intention of leaving this dog at a shelter.

Finally, when my child grows up and asks for a dog, we can pick one out together. I can't wait!

Bill,
Drug dealer? No.
Idiot? Debatable.

Pitbulls are the BEST BREED of dog unless:
It is taken from a Fighting Breed,One Needs to Know Mother and Father of the Puppy,They also are the MOST loving of any breed,Any Dog at any time can attck and Kill a BABY...The One with the most Attacks or Bites is a POODLE,Pits rank 15th in the nation.Anyone who dont take heed for any dog when a baby is Present is an IDIOT..Its like leaving a Sldiding glass door open to a POOL AREA....Ive had pits all my Life with plenty of children around,Never ever had ONE Incident in 25 YEARS..I watch my dogs and how they act around Adults and children,If i see any tendencies for any problem it will be locked in a ROOM,Pit bull or not....We fail to understand ALL ANIMALS ARE ANIMALS

Bill,

Why the comment that he must have the dog because he is a drug dealer or idiot? I am neither, but do happen to be a veterinary technician and dog trainer. We do happen to own a Pit Bull. Not only is he a certified therapy dog, he also has a herding instinct certificate, and was nationally ranked in AKC competitive obedience. He's certainly not the typical drug dealer's dog.

A dog of any breed has the potential to be a fabulous family dog, provided that the adults in the family provide the proper socialization, supervision, and training. The problem with Pit Bulls is that they are extremely popular with lowlifes who encourage bad behavior and/or don't provide adequate socialization and supervision. The "fight/attack" aspect of their history is not exclusive to this breed, and a lot of other breeds of dogs that are considered good family dogs have equally bloody histories.

Rafael, thank you for doing right by this dog by not taking him to the shelter or handing him off to the first scumbag that wants him. If he is not the right fit for your family, I respect that. Thank you for taking the time to find a home that is.

The pitbull breed is no different from any other breed of dog. Just like you attested to, "It's not the dog". The fact is a lot pitbull owners want their pets to be mean, to growl and bark when someone comes to the door ect. I've raised my kids with 2 pit bulls and no incidents of "Oh it never happened before...". I feel sad for people who buy into stereotypes and assume if one pit did something wrong, then they're all bad. Also, idiotic comments like they should all be sterilized is not only ridiculous but an ignorant notion at best. Maybe if you get sterilized then your species of closed minded, and dare I say "racist" people will die out too? So by all means, if you don't have the time nor desire to care for and love that dog.. find him someone who will. If your concern is you have a ticking timebomb at your house waiting to attack you and your family, you are sorely mistaken. My dogs protect me and my family with their lives. If it's the one in the picture above.. he's a beautiful dog and deserves a good home and loving family.
Do the right thing

I should also mention that we brought home our new bundle of joy last December. Our Pit Bull and Belgian Malinois both get along wonderfully with her.

I commend you for being a responsible parent, but you shouldn't have taken the dog to begin with, because it's traumatic for the dog to go from your relative's home to your home and now to some other home, but then again you are doing the right thing, which is putting your baby first. Please make sure that you place the dog at a no kill shelter or give it to a pit bull rescue group specially since you say the dog is friendly and well mannered. If my economic situation wasn't the way it is right now I would take him myself (I have 2 of my own at home)
Good luck placing him.

Ok, let me back up. My intent was to write about the parenting issue: Is it safe to have a pit bull and an infant on the same property? I realize the snippets of the backstory I shared open up other questions and comments, but I wasn't really prepared to get into them. So let me apologize and say that this wasn't a case of me agreeing to take a dog and then regretting that decision. Didn't happen. And I have every intention of finding a good, loving home for him. Drug dealers and idiots need not apply.

If you don't trust this dog with a baby, I am certainly not going to try to persuade you otherwise.

But you should understand that it may be fairly hard or impossible for you to find a great home for an adult pit bull. (Especially on a short timeline). Pit bull rescues are all full to overflowing. Many (most?) shelters don't adopt out pit bulls at all because of liability issues.

The truth is that pit bulls have a deservedly horrible reputation because most pit bull breeders are completely irresponsible. You (and this dog) are both victims of irresponsible pit bull breeders.

Rafael, I felt the need to add my 2 cents here. If you don't have the time to deal with a dog, how the heck are you going to have time for a baby? It takes love and affection and time to raise a good dog and the same for a child. I feel amazed that people feel a dog needs less time than a child. They need attention, proper feeding, time for walks, stimulation, and most of all, love.
I don't believe you can't have both, since my parents raised 4 children at the same time as raising 2 dogs and 3 cats. There was plenty of love to go around and the time spent walking the dogs was some of the best time for us children, too. It gave my parents exercise when we were still young, wore us out as toddlers, and gave us time alone with a parent when we got older. And for the record, the dogs were pitts and we never had even the slightest nip from them, not even when we tugged them around the house by their ears when we were 2 and 3 years old.
Good luck with your son.

Ditch the Pit Bull quick! I would be totally frightened to have a dog like that around a baby. Kids come first always. Later on get a boxer and obedience train it - they are great dogs for kids, as long as someone is home often. There aren't too many dogs who like to be home alone all day.

Don't apologize-- if there is ANYTHING in your house that makes you fear for the safety of the new baby, get rid of it, be it cords on blinds, unsafe electrical outlets or a dog you can't trust.

The regret you'll feel in getting rid of the dog would be TINY compared to the regret you'd feel if the dog attacked a baby.

Has any one who has posted the ignorant posts about pit bulls being pushed to extinction ever heard about the word GENOCIDE!!! Let me guess it's ok because there are dogs right?! We wonder why the world is in the state it is in ...because of ignorant people who do not have all the facts and can not see past what society wants them to see.

"The pitbull breed is no different from any other breed of dog."

Yes, it is, absolutely. If you don't recognize that a pit bull has a LOT of energy, game, drive and power, then you are going to epically fail as a dog owner because you won't be addressing the special needs of the dog.

Labs love water. Am I racist for saying thing? If you get a lab, you'd better be prepared to have a dog that'll jump into any river, creek or puddle it can find. ALL dog breeds have different traits that make them unique. You wouldn't recommend a Aussie Heeler to an elderly apartment dweller, would you?

Nicole, you complain about doggie genocide, but what about what is happening now to the pit bulls? SERIOUS overbreeding. Dogs suffering and dying in kennels, or stuffed into crates by "rescue" organizations that care more about making a political statement than helping dogs.

I was about to yell & scream that you shouldn't have gotten a pit bull until i read that it wasn't yours & you were just caring for it. If i hadn't raised the dog myself i may be a bit nervous about having a large dog (not just the pit bull breed) @ my new baby. that being said- why on EARTH did you wait until a week before you baby comes home to deal with this? any adoption takes awhile, especially since the dog isn't even yours! shame on you for waiting! there are PLENTY of people that would love to have this dog but you cut that list short by waiting so long...

Since the majority of pit bull BREEDERS are criminals, dog fighters, drug dealers, gang members, and run-of-the-mill losers, what do you suppose the chances are that this dog was deliberately,selectively bred FOR an aggressive temperament? I'd say pretty good.

You are doing the right thing, getting rid of the dog. One of the genetic traits the dog fighters graced pit bulls with, by breeding for it, was unpredictability.....because signaling intent is a liability in the pit; you don't want your opponent to know when you are going to strike. Thats why we hear so many stories where the family insists the dog was a "really friendly dog", before it mauled a child.

Of course anything with teeth can bite, however the force of a pitbulls jaw (even the friendliest one) is unlike any other dogs. Once they attack, it is nearly impossible to stop them, even for a grown man. Pitbulls do not belong around children.

This question should be is it safe to have a canine regardless of breed around a child. In the past few weeks we have fatal attacks on a couple of children by Mixed breed dogs and a Siberian Husky. Non fatal attacks by a Police K9, Labrador (actually a couple of different incidents), Mastiff, Boxer, Husky ( a couple of incidents not related to the fatal attack above), Poodle, Pug mix Bulldog and Pomeranian to mention just a few. There are fatal and non fatal attacks on children by all breeds every day, many not reported by parents. I can show you cases where Pomeranian, Dachshund and other small dogs have killed children or done harm. It all comes down to owner and parental responsibility. There is a ton of information out there about introducing canines to children, being responsible, etc. Don’t make it a breed issue that is a big mistake and one that gets lots of children bit by dogs.

Your line “They always contain quotes like “He never acted up before” and “She was the friendliest dog.”” I read attack stories, everything that is printed and then some from different sources involved. There is ALWAYS a reason. It is very rare that a dog just snaps and attacks. It all comes back to owner not being aware or just not caring. There was an incident last year of a dog attacking and the owner is quoted with along the same thing you wrote, yet as you read the article you see neighbors saying, well the dog trapped me in my garage a couple times I had to fire warning shot to get it to leave, it chased a girl and drug her off her bike, etc. None of these incidents were a warning to the owners? And to follow that up, why wasn’t this dealt with by animal control agency prior to an attack. Again it comes to responsible owner, knowing your dog and being a responsible parent.

The media focuses on “pit bulls” anything pit bull related makes the news while other breeds or incidents involving other breeds does not. This gives the public a very slanted and negative image of the pit bull as that is all they hear about. Here is a press release of week researched in media coverage: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2007/08/prweb549276.htm with the media attention, it’s no wonder people feel there is a risk.

Take a look at some facts out of florida - http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/FloridaStats.asp

Some facts about pit bull breeds, well they consistently rank higher in temperament tests than other “family dog” breeds. They continue year after year to pass in the 82+ percentile which is higher than the over all dog average. www.atts.com . I know thousands of pit bull owners who have children, grandchildren and neighbors with kids without issue. My personal dog was not raised around children yet is fantastic with all kids, my neighbors 2 year old comes over and always has to play with Kota, shares her goldfish crackers with Kota. The one thing pit bulls were never bred for, human aggression. People have no idea that human and canine aggression are two entirely different behaviors and one doesn’t lead to the other.

I’m looking at some of the comments, it’s amazing what people will just assume. Labs safe? That’s funny, I have a ton of child attacked stories by Labs, Golden retrievers, etc. If people only took time to research things. It has nothing to do with breed… nothing. It’s the media that has created the hysteria about pit bulls, not the dogs. The breed changes, in the 70’s the media monster was the German Shepherd and what you wrote in your blog today, was done then as German Shepherd. In the 80’s the Doberman Pincher and 90’s the Rotteweiler.

People need to be responsible for their dogs and their children, if everyone learned a little about canine safety with children, taught their children about dogs and how to be safe and learned some basic canine behavior the number of attacks in the US would drop significantly. I can’t tell you how many times at a park I get kids running up to my dogs arms flying around high pitched squeals and scream and launch at the dogs without permission. Parents coming up slowly saying, I’m sorry he/she loves dogs. This is where I launch into canine safety lessons. Who knows if a dog is old and in pain from arthritis, or fearful, etc.

Pit Bulls and their owners suck.
I hate them both.

Dick, I am a little sad to be reminded that there are people in the world who hate without reason.

You don't know me. I'm a retiree (ten years and counting) from the Corporate Office of a major aerospace company. I support the Salvation Army. I play baritone in a community band and bass in a blues/rock band. My criminal record consists of two traffic tickets.

You don't know my dogs, one of which is a pit bull. He's seven years old and is just starting to lose his puppy-like enthusiasm. He makes friends everywhere we go together.

You say you hate us? It's your loss.

By every quantifiable measure, pit bulls are a problem in this country. They are responsible for an inordinate number of serious and fatal attacks on humans, and pose an extremely high risk to other dogs and domesticated animals, due to their heritage as bull baiters and pit fighters.

They are over-represented in every animal shelter in the U.S....99% of the people breeding them are criminals or thugs. (You can quantify this fact by searching on-line for "pit bull breeders" or "pit bull puppies; also, they have a horrifically high incidence of genetic defects because of all the inbreeding and lack of screening for things like OFA.

Pit bulls are dumped in shelters at alarming rates, not because of "breed bias", but because the types of people who own and sell them are among the worst pet owners on the planet; irresponsible people with little real dog knowledge, criminals, dog fighters, and the like.

You can check Craigs List and get a good idea of the extremely high number of losers who are trying to dump their pit bulls because they really had no way to care for it to begin with, and the types of people who breed pit bulls don't really care who they sell them to.

Most of the websites quoted above are owned or supported by breeders and lobbyists...dog fighting is a form of organized crime, and breeding pit bulls is a lucrative income for these people.

Use your common sense, and get rid of the dog....you can go onto any dog fighting website and learn from the dog fighters themselves that these dogs were NEVER meant to be family pets.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that the dog in the picture is NOT A PIT BULL terrier. It is an American Stratfordshire Terrier, which is commonly mistaken for a Pit. If your dog has not shown any aggression toward other animals or humans, then it is very likely that it never will. However, you should always supervise your children when playing with pets.

My personal experience with my AmStaff and children is that, yes, she is stronger and can/will knock you down...with excitement, not anger. She attacks with her tongue and kisses, not teeth and bites. Every dog is different, and every dog owner is different. My nephews stand on top of her while she's laying down, pull her ears, her tail, (of course I make them stop, but my pooch is so tolerant to their jungle-gym antics).

Please check out Best Friends Animal Sanctuary; this is the animal rescue that took in all of the Pit Bulls from the Michael Vick case...and all the dogs have been reformed and retrained, even the "attack" dogs. You can see the show Dogtown on the National Geographic Channel to see the rescue group work with the Vick-tory pits.

I would only ask that you and your wife consider keeping your dog and supervising the interaction between your pet (on a leash) and your child, to see if you feel comfortable with your dogs response. Of course a baby is too young to interact with a dog, so hopefully this will be a non-issue for several months, giving you more time to consider your options or find another suitable home for your pooch.

Wow... ignorance is not bliss in this case. You should be ashamed, as a reporter and as a human being, for encouraging people to get rid of their dogs when a baby is on the way. Dogs are not disposable and they rely heavily on us to care for them. Not to get rid of them when a major life change occurs. When I see people making the decision to get rid of pets when babies come along, it makes me wonder how much commitment to they put in other areas of your life. What about if your wife gets sick and doesn't go with your plans for the future, will you get rid of her too?
According to Karen Delise of National Canine Research Council," in a SINGLE YEAR, 2005, more than FIVE TIMES as many Florida children died from maltreatment (abuse/neglect) than the TOTAL from ALL dog attacks over the past 43 years. "
So, maybe the dog should get rid of the possibility of abusive parents and raise the child himself.
Go educate yourself before you lead others down a path of encouraging pet abandonment.

I understand the tough position you find yourself in. You have been saddled with a dog that you do not want at a time when a huge life change is coming. But words do not come close to describing how much I wish that you had made this out to be a dog issue rather than a breed issue. You have just added fuel to a fire that we responsible pit bull owners spend every day fighting.

My husband and I will be bringing home our first bundles of joy in June. We will be bringing twin boys into a 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom apartment that is also the home of 2 pitbulls. Of course I have concerns but my dogs are not going anywhere because we have a responsibility to them. Instead, we are preparing them for life with babies, including buying baby dolls that cry and carrying them around as if we had babies already. The dogs will never, EVER be left unsupervised with the babies not because they are pit bulls, but because they are DOGS.

As for your comment about not worrying about lap dogs, check out the following:
http://www.kctv5.com/news/14519881/detail.html?rss=kan

Bottom line, if you are as devoted to keeping this dog out of a shelter as you say you are, you will be bringing home your baby while he is still there. I know multiple people who have fostered pit bulls for reputable rescues for years before the dog was adopted. Please check out PBRC.net. You can list the dog for rehoming on there and find great tips for pit bull care and training.

Has this dog shown aggression? Has he shown questionable behaviors? Why not accept him based on what you have experienced with him and be proactive in your supervision and parenting instead?
Reading today's news and how a Father killed his wife and 5 children I am more concerned about human behavior then this "dopiest, friendliest, most goofiest bundle of fun imaginable dog"
As the Mother of three kids and a baby on the way, We have 4 dogs (gsd, siberian husky, pit bull and mal/shepherd mix) I am also the creator of an educational program for new & expecting fmailies to help increase safety and fun and decrease stress. The key is education and preparation. I am happy to offer advice and support as many families have concerns no matter what the breed. You as a reporter should know first hand that sometimes reporting can be misleading. Instead of believing things about dogs not in your care why not look at the dog you know and be fair to him. www.dogsandstorks.com
Get informed and educated.

Since you identify yourself as a journalist, I can understand you falling for the media hype that all pit bulls are little more than ticking time bombs ready to explode. Are you aware that for hundreds of years pit bulls have been alternatively known as the nanny dog simply because they are so gentle and tolerant with children? Despite their well deserved reputation for animal aggression, which responsible breeders are trying to breed out, pit bulls are, by nature, not genetically programmed to attack humans, no matter the size or age. Human aggression and animal aggression are two entirely different things.

My present service dog happens to be a pit bull. She is constantly under attack by unleashed children when we go to Walmart. They bulldog her from behind with no warning whatsoever. It's really a shame that their grand parents didn't believe in mandatory sterilization - of humans. The worst reaction my dog has ever had has been to attempt to drown them with kisses and beat them to death with her tail. This is a dog that was not raised with children. Her first encounter with them was with my 9 & 11 year old grand daughters when she was 9 months old. She lives with two rottweilers, an Anatolian shepherd, and eight cats. Yes, she is the "boss dog", even though she is the smallest, but the actual home owner, who allows the rest of us to share her dwelling is one of the cats.

Your dog, as you describe him, has the correct temperament for a devoted family pet. Please give him a chance, naturally with proper supervision, to see how he interacts with your baby. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

One more issue, Rafael....are you aware that pit bulls are a "banned breed" for many insurance companies? Do you own a home or rent? If you have homeowners insurance, your agent could revoke, or not renew your policy if they find out you have a pit bull. If the dog bites someone, you may not be covered. You are assuming the legal liability...both civil and criminal... for a dog of unknown breeding and origin; a breed created by degenerate gamblers to race across a pit and disembowel its opponent without warning or provocation.

How old is the dog in the picture? The dog in the picture looks like a game bred dog, a red nose pit, from fighting lines. Most pit bull experts agree that dog aggression may not manifest itself until the dog reaches sexual maturity....between the ages of two and three. What will you do if the dog's genetics come into play a year from now, and it wants to kill your neighbors dogs? How will you manage that?

Put your family first....get rid of the dog.

Janet,

Please enlighten the rest of us on how you can look at one picture of a dog and determine that it is "game bred" and from "fighting lines". Give me a break.

I'm sure that if you saw a picture of my male pit bull who is covered in scars and is the exact image of what I call a "status" pit bull (what the ignorant thugs look for), you would tell me he was a fighter. That couldn't be further from the truth. He is a rescue and while I don't know where his scars come from, they are not from being fought in a pit. He is far too scared of EVERYTHING for that.

Give the rest of the world a break and shut your mouth.

I find it unfortunate that a person who claims to be a journalist is not able to analyze and question statistics with any more competence than the average parrot who recapitulates everything they are fed by the media as gospel.

Pit Bulls were bred to fight other dogs and, at the same time, never to show aggression toward human beings. Because of their history, they have earned a deserved reputation for animal aggression but a biased and undeserved reputation for aggression toward humans.

Independent evaluations have shown that Pit Bulls, on the whole, have stable temperaments, and are no more prone to biting than Golden Retrievers.

http://www.atts.org/stats1.html

Unfortunately, irresponsible and downright dangerous humans, who have no business owning dogs of any breed, abuse the tenacious nature of these animals. Sometimes it involves trying to make a "guard dog" out of an animal that was never bred to fight humans. Other times its as extreme as pumping the dogs with steroids to try to build aggression. I have even heard of people sewing bottle caps under these dogs' skin to keep them in constant discomfort.

As a result, the dogs make headlines that are completely unrepresentative of the breed as a whole.

As a matter of fact, Pit Bull is not a breed at all, but rather is a catch-all term to represent several distinct breeds of dog.

Journalists like you, who either don't understand the complex nature of the issue or or just angling for a good headline glom on to these stories, anomalies that they are, and convince the unthinking public that there is a monster in their midst.

Having lived with this dog, I am surprised you haven't seen the Pit Bull's reputation for what it is - a bad rap grounded in hysteria.

The dog you describe sounds like an excellent companion animal. The size and breed of the dog do not matter when it comes to keeping children and dogs safe in one another's company. Appropriate supervision is what you should focus on.

I'm sure you are anxious about this arrival and want to remove any source of potential harm before your sweet baby comes into the world. But by pointing at your Pit Bull, you're barking up the wrong tree (no pun intended).

Please consider working with a trainer who can help you and your dog make the transition to having a baby in the house. There is no reason why the dog has to go.

Ah, typical pit bull owner. You are all self-professed dog "experts", but you don't seem to know anything about the breed. You may want to try the AKC website; the Amstaff standard calls for a black nose. Then go into the pit bull chat forum and show them the picture; OFRN is a APBT game-bred bloodline, he looks like one. My reference was to his breeding or bloodlines, not whether or not he had been fought.

You have no idea if your rescue has been fought...he may have just been the loser, or he may have been attacked by other pits in his breeders "yard". You have no idea how much of his temperament problems are due to lack of socialization, abuse, or bad breeding/genetics.

Janet,

Judging from your post, you obviously know absolutely nothing about Pit Bulls other than that they have a bad reputation. Yet somehow you are arrogant enough to claim that you can not only tell the lineage of the dog, but that it is "game bred." A red nose does not make a dog dangerous, for goodness sake.

Please get a clue.

U

I have read the article and the posts and just wanted to add of few comments.
I am an MD with a 29yo son who asked me to take care of his pit/amstaff n/m while he was on active duty. That was last April. I was leery at first because I have not had anything but a lap dog since I was a teenager. This dog is loving, smart,, obedient and wants to be a lap dog. He gets along with other dogs well. He was 8 months when my grand daughter was born and he was wonderful with her. They were always supervised and he had no access to her bedroom,ever. She learned to pull herself up and walk with his help. He was always kind and gentle.

My son now is not able to keep him and I have learned so much from other responsible,, dedicated pitbull owners.
I have no issues with the breed at all. Each dog and each breed need to be looked at separately.

I encourage you to become informed and if you do adopt him out please be sure the new owners understand the breed and are willing to provide him with what he needs.

Everywhere we go with him people stop and want to pet him and comment on what a gorgeous dog he is and how well behaved. Some quickly act afraid after they learn what kind of dog he is.

When I was younger the scary dogs were rottweiler and dobermans. If all pit bulls are banned, some other breed will become the "vicious animal that doesn't deserve to live".

Please consider researching your topics before writing about them.

I wasn't trying to be a final word on the subject, by a long shot. I'm glad responsible pit bull owners are telling their stories and giving me a piece of their minds.

You guys left me a lot of messages here. I'll try to respond to them this evening. But thank you for a spirited discussion.

I can't tell if the article is a joke or not. I find it hard to believe that an educated person could be so short sighted. I want to think this is some kind of tongue and cheek article to get a discussion going.

all pit bulls should be killed, and their owners imprisoned. anyone who has one is, by definition, a moron.

Janet,
I agree with Brynna - keep your mouth shut. What makes you a pit bull expert? Have you ever been around one?! Bothered to learn anything objective about them, besides the media hysteria and biased "facts"?

Dick,
You're a, well... ick with a "D" in front of it.

And to all the other pit bull haters, I'm sick and tired of you! This is a DOG for Christ's sake! You make it out to be akin to Godzilla or Predator that does everything but breathe fire. Oh, but, I'm sure that ability will be on page one at a newsstand near you soon. Humans made and continue to make this dog what it is, as they have all dog breeds. Period. Most people don't know the first thing about dog behavior, body language, appearance, etc.,etc., etc., and they just don't care to. Well, maybe they need to since they're inviting an animal to share their homes. The fact of the matter is that most people should not own this breed. I'll go a step further and say that most of the people who do are ignorant, irresponsible and/or criminal. With the right people and in the right situations, these dogs are marvelous. But not for everyone. So, after we exterminate the Pit Bull, which breed will be next? Cane Corso, Perro de Presa Canario, Dogue de Bordeaux, Doberman, Rottweiler (because everyone knows they look like Pit Bulls), Am Staff, Stafforshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Boxer (they look like Pit Bulls, too), Golden Retriever, Beagle...
Ignorance, hysteria and hate - coming to a city near you!

Now, Syndey, you're just trying to rile up the pit bull lovers, aren't you? Why is it that the haters never have anything constructive to say?
Why don't you shut up, too, and go annoy another comment board.
Loreen, thank you for a wonderful story.

Confused,

The article is not a joke. It's a personal decision that weighs facts against emotional considerations and reaches a conclusion and course of action. That you disagree with my decision does not make me uneducated or short-sighted.

But yes, I did want to get a discussion going. I wrote this, not to settle the issue of pit bulls (or AmStaffs) and children, but to raise it. What's right for me and my family at this time may not be right for you or your family. And that's okay. People should be able to disagree and discuss things intelligently without assuming those who disagree with them lack education or wisdom.

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated "
M. Ghandi

I'm realizing looking at all these posts that I couldn't possibly respond to them all and do them justice, so let me express my appreciation for those who expressed understanding that I didn't ask for this dilemma and respect for the fact that I am, correctly or incorrectly, trying to put my family first.

I do not place the care of a dog on par with the care of my child, and maybe that's another reason I shouldn't have one. A dog, I mean. At least not this one at this time.

Just because I waited until now to write about it doesn't mean I waited until now to do something about the situation.

I choose in this space to write some things that are personal in nature. I have to decide, as a writer, where I'm going to draw the line. So if I don't get into specific family issues that place me in certain positions (such as the figuring out what to do with this dog), I ask that you accept my apology, but understand that boundary.

I can't imagine that anyone would compare my decision not to care for someone else's dog to my marriage vows. I'm still shocked over that one.

A lot of people have given good advice for those who want to know the truth about pit bulls, AmStaffs and other dogs (as well as poodles, labradors, etc).

I never claimed to be right in some kind of blanket, thou-shalt-not-do-this-either kind of way. My wife and I made a decision for our family, not for yours. We didn't do it yesterday. I chose to wrote about it today because it was on my mind and I had the time this morning. I also took the time to seek out resources that would show an alternative point of view (the video, Jason Mann's Web site). I also deliberately reached out to Web sites where I knew people would disagree with me, just so pit bull owners could come here and let me know why they think I'm wrong.

Whether it changes my mind or not, it educates us all, if we keep an open mind.

At the end of the day, I may still get a new home for the dog (we know several people who are interested). But next time there's a "vicious dog attack" in Broward County, I will have the benefit of all this added perspective for myself or to share with any other reporter covering the story.

Thank you all for a spirited discussion (not that I'm trying to end it, but in case I don't get a chance to say it later).

Really? I agree with some of the folks on this here blog... Dogs are not disposable. I really hope this stays on yer conscience... I have a pit bull, or American Staffordshire Terrier if you will. I also have a son who just turned 11. The dog will also be 11 this month. I would never think of giving the dog up. Did you know that most shelters simply kill the pit bulls right off the bat? Please find him a good home. Remember Karma pal! That goes for all of you rotten souls out there that dispose of your dogs when things get tight, or stressful or gee, I just can't seem to manage a baby and a dog at the same time. I'm sure hell has a special place for you.
Love, the Cowboy

Rafael,

I think that the message we animal/pit bull lovers are trying to convey is that you should at least give your pet a chance to prove itself to be what you have already observed...goofy, dopey, friendly. Newborns, babies and todlers are always under constant supervision (hopefully), so you would always know that your child and your pet are not alone together. If your pet shows signs of jealousy or agression such as growling or baring teeth, then you know that keeping the dog is not possible. But please at least afford the dog the opportunity to be a real part of your family. You will be pleasantly surprised.
Best of luck and congrats on the new baby!

Rafael, thank you for your remarks, and your honesty. I think, however, you should go to this website for another perspective..

www.dogsbite.org

This is a website dedicated to victims of dog attacks...there is a lot of information on it. It may help you to consider the point of view and experiences of survivors of pit bull attacks, and of parents whose children have been attacked by pit bulls. You may feel a lot less guilty for rehoming the dog after reading the research, personal stories, and news stories posted hear; read the pieces by Wendy Blevins, whose daughter was attacked and disfigured by a neighbors pit bull.

Good luck with your new baby, and God bless.

Somehow, Cowboy, when the Almighty looks at the good and bad I've done, I doubt highly He's going to cast me to a fiery pit for all eternity because I sought to find a good home and owner/caretaker for a dog who deserved one.

Really, Cowboy, you would subject this dog to an owner (me) who doesn't want him just to prove a point?

Zoie's mom: you probably have a point. I'm just not willing to take the risk, you know? I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, I'm wrong because I want to protect the kid. What do I do if the first sign of aggression from the dog is more than a growl, if I'm not home and if it's more than my wife can physically handle? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm making an emotional case, and your reason (as reasonable as it may be) may not be enough to overcome that emotion in me.

Doug: I feel no guilt, despite the prospect of eternal hellfire at the hands of Cowboy's God. :)

All dogs can bite, but my opinion is that any dog that can do such horrible damage does not belong in a family with small children. babies and young children are very hard on animals. They cry and don't understand what they are doing is upsetting or might be hurting an animal. Even if you are the perfect parent, if you have a toddler and an animal in one house there will be some amount of annoyance for the animal. So, easily irritated pets or pets that can easily cause serious damage should not be living with young children; period!

Jeeze. Where to begin? First of all, the dog in the picture IS a pit bull. "American staffordshire terrier" is simply the AKC's name for pit bull. (And this dog actually isn't an Amstaff since they don't have brown noses, whereas generic "pit bulls" do).

There are NO "independent evaluations" that show that pit bulls are no more likely to bite than golden retrievers. Pit bulls are far more likely to KILL than golden retrievers however, and most dog bite fatality victims are children.

Those two facts don't mean that THIS dog is dangerous to children. He could be fine with children. Or not.

So if your baby acts up r u going to give it away - why did you take the dog. Why don't you leave

So if your baby acts up r u going to give it away - why did you take the dog. Why don't you leave

By the way, pit bulls who attack other dogs often give few warnings before attacking. They don't growl or raise their hackles or bare their teeth. This is because dogs who do those things are trying to avoid a fight (hear how scary I am, look how big I am, see how big my teeth are) and fighting is self-rewarding behavior for many pit bulls. They LIKE to fight.

I haven't ever read whether this is also true of pit bulls who attack humans. I wouldn't be surprised, however. And don't believe anybody who tells you that every dog gives lots of warning before attacking and doing serious damage. It isn't true. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

I say, keep the dog and get rid of the wife and child. Chances are your wife will cheat on you with the pool guy and your child will grow up to be a spolit brat......

It is also untrue that pit bulls who showed (show) aggression toward humans were (are) always killed by dog fighters. Do you REALLY think that the pondscum who enjoy(ed) watching dogs dismember each other would hesitate to breed a dog because his temperament was a bit sub-par? Many, many pit bulls who bit people (including the charmingly named "Chinaman") appear in many pit bull pedigrees.

As pit bull expert Diane Jessup has written: If a pit bull didn't win in the pit, he was killed. If he did win in the pit, he was bred.

Sadly we now live in a disposable society. How unfortunate for this sweet dog to never have the chance to show you & your family the love it has to offer.
I certainly hope when your child grows up and becomes a trash talking punk you work to find him a good home also.

Yes, Mariah. If the baby acts up, I'm putting him up for adoption. Who tattled?

Amazed,

I am amazed that you would show such compassion for the dog and so much contempt for human beings.

I am amazed that some here (not everyone) are insistent that a dog stay with someone who doesn't want him, rather than have the dog moved to a home where he will be loved, appreciated and HAPPIER.

Amazed that finding a good home for a dog who deserves one is equated in some people's minds as "disposing of him."

stingray-It was not my intention to imply that you were uneducated but rather the contrary. I was saying that if in fact this article was serious I'm surprised an educated person such as yourself would write an article like this. You would be better off consulting with an animal behaviorist and a trainer if you have doubts about raising your child around a dog. I understand this situation is a bit unique because you are technically looking after this dog and didn't adopt it. Ultimately it's your decision and you have to do what you feel is best for your family. I can respect that. However comments like "Pit bulls and babies go together like Freddy Krueger and teenagers." are completely uncalled for. In fact I have seen just the opposite. I can tell you that as a child I was bitten by a German Shepard and a Maltese. I guess because those breeds don't make headlines their owners thought it was okay to let them roam free. My pitbull on the other hand has always been well behaved around children. He is patient and gentle. That doesn't mean I allow him to run around the neighborhood off leash. Responsible owners keeps our communites safe not singling out a breed and demonizing it. I guess I'm just surprised that you've lived with this dog for sometime and seem to like it but now it's time to go. I have to ask, if someone write you and said: "this dog is not a pitbull, it's a rhodesian ridgeback" would you still want to get rid of it?

Rafael,

I do have to call you on this idea that your dog will be happier with somebody else. I think it might be a fantasy. Normal dogs are happiest with their own family, not being shuffled around and "rehomed." (Just like normal kids).

Do you have a commitment from a responsible person who has met this dog and knows him well? If not, you might be quite surprised at how difficult it is to responsibly place an adult pit bull.

Responsible people who are willing to take a pit bull are pretty rare. Lots of people say "I'd love to take him if..." (insurance issues are a big concern for many people, rightly so).

If this dog isn't at least two years old, another thing that you should make potential adopters aware of is the possibility that he might yet become very dog aggressive. This should make anybody with other pets wary about taking him.

Well, Rafael, I don't live in Florida anymore. Sold in '07 and headed for the piney woods of Georgia. If your dog likes cats you can put a stamp on his cute little tushy and send him up here. We have two indoor cats and a huge rough collie who has a thing for pits/Staffordshires. My dog's first puppy crush was on a female pit and she was equally devoted to him...until the caregiver dumped her at the pound. Didn't find out about this until it was too late. People 'round here let their pits roam free and my dog has taken up with every one of them. Can't say why. He came to me from a breeder half way across the country and the only dog she had was the mother collie. Whatever you do, make sure your dog goes to someone who really wants him and will provide for him in a manner you would approve.

Dogs roaming free is pretty much a red herring. Most kids are bitten by their own dogs or by dogs on the dog's own property.

Good points, Cygnet. And sobering.

Thank you for bringing it up.

Confused: stingay wasn't the one who wrote the comment responding to you: I was.

The Freddy Krueger line was intended to be stereotypical and somewhat comedic. Note what I said right afterward. "Pit bulls and babies go together like Freddy Krueger and teenagers. Ok, I'm exaggerating. In truth, this is a personal decision, not really a bigoted one. If I felt our family had the time, inclination and resources to properly train and raise a pit bull, this big fella would be just the right fit. But honestly, we don’t."

So we're in agreement. If I had the time, money and inclination to be a proper owner for this dog, I would do it. Likewise, if it had truly been my decision to take this dog in the first place, I would feel a deeper sense of obligation. I don't, it wasn't, and I don't.

Whether you agree with me or not (and I respect those who don't), wouldn't it be better for this dog to be with someone who doesn't harbor my worries about the breed, whether I'm paranoid or justified?

Georgian,

If you truly are in the market for a pit bull, you can find one that is certain to die if you don't rescue it a lot closer than Florida.

But the idea that you would commit to take a dog about which you know next to nothing would make any responsible person looking to place a dog wonder a bit...

Hey, my workday's long done and the family's coming home. Good night all. If this is still going tomorrow, I may check in. Forgive me if I don't. Never know what the news will bring.

Thank you, all.

cygnet1,

I assume you are basing the statement you attribute to Diane Jessup on her book, _The Working Pit Bull_. Perhaps your statement is paraphrased from page 115, which describes a typical fight staged by modern day dogfighters.

However, anyone who reads the entire book will see that you have distorted Ms. Jessup’s message, as expressed by the following quotes:

Page 9:

“In the mid 1980s I watched with horror as the Pit Bulldog was swept up in a fad panic, crucified by the press, the national humane societies, the American Kennel Club, law makers, city and county council members and thousands of others who certainly should have known better. Article after article, news story after news story, all were unfair, biased and sensationalized. How the dogs ever survived that time is a testimony to the breed’s gameness and ability to inspire loyalty in its owners.”

Page 43:

“From about 1890 to 1948 the APBT was a very popular dog. While he was used by a small portion of the population as a fighting dog, he was valued more as a good-natured watchdog and family pet.”

Page 92:

“One fact that is constantly ignored… is simply that at any given time the number of Pit Bulldogs engaged or kept specifically for fighting other dogs was extremely low... This breed has never been bred exclusively for fighting other dogs. Not in the past, and not now… Far more Pit Bulls have lived the life of farm dog, watchdog, hunting dog, stock dog and family companion than have ever entered a pit.”

My comment should have been directed to Rafael and not Stingray, my mistake.

I would also like to add that in my opinion www.dogsbite.org is a site that has singled out a breed and ignored on many occasions the underlying issues of attacks.

Not to mention that many "pitbull" attacks are often not pitbulls at all but mixed breed dogs with similar characteristics.

" If I felt our family had the time, inclination and resources to properly train and raise a pit bull, this big fella would be just the right fit. But honestly, we don’t."

I think that's an honest and fair statement mostly because again, you did not seek this dog out. If you have a great home lined up for this dog and you feel that's the best choice for your family I can respect that.

I take issue with people who adopt a dog or buy one for a breeder then have a baby and decide they no longer have time for the dog and dump it at a shelter.

It seems to me that the issue here is that you helped out a family member then got stuck with a dog when you didn't have time for one. That's a completely different issue then getting rid of a dog because it's a pitbull.

Not having the time to exercise and entertain a young large breed dog is different then being afraid of it.

From what you've said about this dog he sounds like a nice dog. He deserves to be in a loving home. If you can't provide this and you know someone who can I wouldn't stop you from giving him up.

It does sound like you have this dogs best interest in mind as well as your families and that's more then I can say about most people who rehome their dogs.

Congratulations on the baby and good luck with your decision.

I completely understand how you feel. I just had my first baby. My husband and I have a pit bull and I begged him to get rid of him before our daughter arrived. Our pit bull has not been the best dog and has behaved like a typical pit bull. I told my husband I would give him one chance, he kept telling me he would be perfect with our daughter. When we brought her home I was so scared, but sure enough my husband was right. The pit has been amazing with our daughter, he lets us know when she is crying and he is so protective of her. I am in shock at what a good dog he has become. I would not blame you if you got rid of him, but give him a chance. I even bought a muzzle for his first interaction with our daughter, I have not had to use it since. Good luck!

"most goofiest"? Is that good journalism?

Lose the pitbull. In fact, they should all be destroyed.

I will bow to the knowledge that most of you seem to posses regarding the gentle nature of the pit bull. I am afraid of them, but perhaps you are correct, in that the fear has probably come from a. the media and b. the types of people one generally sees at the other end of the leash. Yes, I am very aware that all dogs bite, but none have the powerfull jaws, nor the determination once the attack has begun, that a pit bull has.

However, does anyone remember the story, not to long ago, about the pack of Chihuahuas attacking a police officer?

Rafael,

I'm disappointed to see the comments telling you that you're wrong for getting rid of the dog, as well as those that support the destruction of this breed. If you decided to get the dog and was now deciding to send it off, I'd be arguing against you. It's sad to see so many people giving up their dogs because they "don't have the money," "don't have time," "are moving," and whatever other pathetic excuse they can come up with that they should have considered before adopting the dog. However, it seems like you didn't plan on caring for the dog, and did it out of kindness. Although I don't think the dog would cause any trouble, I respect your opinion to find it a home because you don't want anything to happen to your child. If I would attempt to remove any worries about danger to my child as well.

It's comforting to hear that you're trying to find it a good home and aren't just dumping it somewhere. Again, there are people who choose to get a dog, then come up with a lame excuse to dump it off to the first person that'll take it. It's also good to see that you have an open mind and are willing to hear both sides of the issue.

A couple side notes:

I'm a proud American Pit Bull Terrier owner, and I'm sorry to say that I don't have a criminal background. I'm not a "thug" and I don't deal drugs. I'm a student pursuing an engineering degree. I'm not profiting from the breed, and my dog was fixed soon after I adopted her. I didn't adopt the dog to make me feel tougher. She's currently sitting beside me in a sweater with a pink collar. Unless pink is the new "tough" color, I'd probably fail at using her to look more macho. Stereotyping pit bull owners is solid evidence of lacking the capability to think for one's self, and lack intelligence to construct a useful opinion.

Another thing -- An American Staffordshire Terrier IS the same dog as an American Pit Bull Terrier. The weight standard is slightly lower for the AmStaff, but the standards for the AKC's AmStaff and UKC's APBT were both created from the EXACT same Colby line dog. AKC simply chose to call their dog an "American Staffordshire Terrier" to remove the negative stigma associated with the term "pit bull." However, they are, in fact, the same dog. There are numerous "pit bulls" that are registered as an AmStaff with the AKC, and an APBT with the UKC.

The misinformation that goes around is one of the big reasons the "pit bull" is in the situation it's in. Please spread fact and not information garnered from other unreliable sources.

Congratulations on your child. I'd much rather see a family that's overly cautious than one that didn't take enough precautions!

-Josh

Kill all the pitbulls with thier ignorant owners/drug dealers/gang bangers/thugs

My son and I were taking the inlaws mini schnauzer for a walk last Thanksgiving. We were on the opposite side of the street (just walking) when a pit bull mix attacked the dog we were walking. For no reason. Or maybe it was because we were just walking....my son was not hurt. he was 4 years old. I however was bitten while trying to get my mother inlaws free.

we were just walking....

you be the judge.

Alison,

Your are correct regarding determination.

You are incorrect regarding strength. See the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bwY9ab4MJs

There is nothing supernatural about a pit bull's jaw muscles. Strength is proportional to muscle mass -- period.

I know you're joking about the Chihuahuas. However, any dog can inflict a fatal bite on a human infant -- even a Pomeranian.

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/CaliforniaStats.asp

For any dog owner.

HOW COULD YOU?
By Jim Willis, 2001

When I was a puppy, I entertained you with my antics and made you laugh. You called me your child, and despite a number of chewed shoes and a couple of murdered throw pillows, I became your best friend.

Whenever I was ‘bad’, you’d shake your finger at me and ask “How could you? ” – but then you’d relent and roll me over for a belly rub. My housebreaking took a little longer than expected, because you were terribly busy, but we worked on that together. I remember those nights of nuzzling you in bed and listening to your confidences and secret dreams, and I believed that life could not be anymore perfect. We went for long walks and runs in the park, car rides, stops for ice cream ( I only got the cone because “ice cream is bad for dogs”, you said), and I took long naps in the sun waiting for you to come home at the end of the day.

Gradually, you began spending more time at work and on your career, and more time searching for a human mate. I waited patiently, comforted you through heartbreaks and disappointments, never chided you about bad decisions, and romped with glee at your homecomings, and when you fell in love. She, now your wife is not a ‘dog person’ – still I welcomed her into our home, tried to show her affection and obeyed her. I was happy because you were happy. Then the human babies came along and I shared your excitement. I was fascinated by their pinkness, how they smelled, and I wanted to mother them too. Only she and you worried that I might hurt them, and I spent most of my time banished to another room, or to a dog crate.

Oh, how I wanted to love them, but I became a ‘prisoner of love’. As they began to grow, I became their friend. They clung to my fur and pulled themselves up on wobbly legs, poked fingers in my eyes, investigated my ears, and gave me kisses on my nose. I loved everything about them and their touch – because your touch was now so infrequent – and I would defend them with my life if need be. I would sneak into their beds and listen to their worries and secret dreams, and together we waited for the sound of your car in the driveway.

There had been a time, when others asked if you had a dog, that you produced a photo of me from your wallet and told them stories about me. These past few years, you just answered “yes” and changed the subject. I had gone from being ‘your dog’ to ‘just a dog’, and you resented every expenditure on my behalf.

Now, you have a new career opportunity in another city, and you and they will be moving to an apartment that does not allow pets. You’ve made the right decision for your ‘family’, but there was a time when I was your only family. I was excited about the car ride until we arrived at the animal shelter.

It smelled of dogs and cats, of fear, of hopelessness. You filled out the paperwork and said “I know you will find a good home for her.” They shrugged and gave you a pained look. They understand the realities facing a middle-aged dog, even one with ‘papers’. You had to pry your son’s fingers loose from my collar as he screamed “No Daddy! Please don’t let them take my dog!” And I worried for him, and what lessons you had just taught him about friendship and loyalty, about love and responsibility, and about respect for all life.

You gave me a goodbye pat on the head, avoided my eyes, and politely refused to take my collar and lead with you. You had a deadline to meet and now I have one too. After you left, the two nice ladies said you probably knew about your upcoming move months ago and made no attempt to find me another good home. They shook their heads and asked, “How could you?”

They are as attentive to us here in the shelter as their busy schedules allow. They feed us, of course, but I lost my appetite days ago. At first, whenever anyone passed my pen, I rushed to the front, hoping it was you, that you had changed your mind – that this was all a bad dream…. Or I hoped it would at least be someone who cared, anyone who might save me.

When I realized I could not compete with the frolicking for attention happy puppies, oblivious to their own fate, I retreated to a far corner and waited.

I heard her footsteps as she came for me at the end of the day, and I padded along the aisle after her to a separate room. A blissfully, quiet room. She placed me on the table and rubbed my ears, and told me not to worry. My heart pounded in anticipation of what was to come, but there was also a sense of relief. The prisoner of love had run out of days.

As is my nature, I was more concerned about her. The burden which she bears weighs heavily on her, and I know that, the same way I knew your every mood. She gently placed a tourniquet around my foreleg as a tear ran down her cheek. I licked her hand in the same way I used to comfort you so many years ago. She expertly slid the hypodermic needle into my vein. As I felt the sting and the cool liquid coursing through my body, I lay down sleepily, looked into her kind eyes and murmured “How could you?”

Perhaps because she understood my dog speak she said “I’m so sorry”. She hugged me, and hurriedly explained it was her job to make sure I went to a better place, where I couldn’t be ignored or abused or abandoned, or to have to fend for myself – a place of love and light so very different from this earthly place.

And with my last bit of energy, I tried to convey to her with a thump of my tail that my “How could you?” was not directed at her. It was directed at you, My Beloved Master, I was thinking of you. I will think of you and wait for you forever. May everyone in your Life continue to show you so much loyalty.

A note from the Author:

If “How Could You?” brought tears to your eyes as you read it, as it did to mine as I wrote it, it is because it is the composite story of the millions of formerly ‘owned’ pets who die each year in American and Canadian animal shelters. Anyone is welcome to distribute this essay for a non commercial purpose, as long as it is properly attributed with the copyright notice.

Please use it to help educate, on your websites, in newsletters, or animal shelter and vet office bulletin boards. Tell the public that the decision to add a pet to the family is an important one for life, that animals deserve our love and sensible care, that finding another appropriate home for your animal is your responsibility and local humane society or animal welfare league can offer you good advice, and that all life is precious.

Please pass this on to everyone, not to hurt them or even make them sad, but it could save maybe, even one unwanted pet.

Remember….. They love UNCONDITIONALLY, if you give them LOVE.

Beau - that's an unfortunate experience. I hope you called animal control to have the dog taken. Had the owners been responsible or if the leash laws were enforced, it wouldn't have happened. Just curious - was it 90lbs?

My sister was attacked years ago by a black lab owned by a friend of ours. It was always kept in a pen and unaltered. It did not make it to the news, but she made it to the hospital.

I guess since anecdotal evidence is worth posting, here's mind:

My APBT has been attacked by a retriever, a chihuahua (no joke), a stray mix, a JRT, and a border collie mix. She's been snapped at by a cairn terrier, a cocker spaniel, and a variety of other dogs during her obedience classes. She's been clawed by numerous cats. She had a small child fall on her, causing her to yelp. The attack by the border collie left her needing stitches on her hind leg, and now has a visible scar on the inside of her leg. Throughout most of these experiences, "we were just walking..."

Oddly, throughout all this, she has never growled or snapped back. Each and every time, she either assumed the dog was playing and would assume the play pose, or she would yelp and run off.

I've caught someone breaking into my car, and another was eventually arrested for breaking into my apartment as well as others. They were both the same ethnicity. Would it be proper for me to assume that all will do the same thing?

You are comparing a pit bull (if it truly is one) who was obviously not owned by anyone responsible to a pit bull that is owned by someone who is. It doesn't sound like the dog was in a great environment if it was out wandering around.

If you knew a child raised in a caring family, and one raised in a home without responsible parents -- which would you expect to not behave properly?

As a pet owner, I can appreciate your "honesty" in the article. I fail to see the reason for the article. If you are looking for support in your decision, I'm sure that you will see support from both sides of the debate. If the article was just to see the reaction, then it is a waste of ink.

I'm not going to call you an idiot or anything like that but I believe that you understand sensationalism and that pollutes the common sense thought process. The dog is not right for your family and at this time your family is not right for any dog. Where you go from here is your decision. Do you abandon the dog, have it euthanized, surrender to AC or do you take the time to try to get him to a pit bull rescue.

I've been around animals all of my life and have raised a family. The one thing that I have learned is that our children and our pets(Dogs, horses, cats)have all been great sources of joy and heartache. I wouldn't have missed any of it.

Best of luck to you and your family.

Good morning.

David: No "reason" for the article. When we post on the blog, it's pretty much what's on our minds at a particular time. And yes, it is to get people to think about it and talk about it. This one clearly struck a chord with a lot of people, some of whom chose to respond thoughtfully (while others merely vented or provoked).

By the way, no ink was spilled in the publication of this article: it's Internet only. :)

Tyson, thank you for sharing that article.

Dave,

No. Actually I was paraphrasing something I read that Diane Jessup wrote, disputing the myth that people aggressive pit bulls were always killed by dog fighters.

But she isn't the only one. Dog fighting apologist Richard Stratton (In "This is the Pit Bull") talks about one big pit bull winner who was so dangerous to people that he had to be brought to the pit muzzled, with two leashes. The referee carried a club. The pit was surrounded by wire to protect the spectators.

And, of course, in more recent times plently of pit bull breeders are breeding FOR aggression to human beings. This is a sad but very predictable since many people who want pit bulls want a weapon, not a companion.

Ms. Jessup talks about people using pit bulls as "farm dogs." Right now I would wager a whole lot more pit bulls are being used (and bred) to be crackhouse guard dogs than farm dogs.

Many of the pit bull people here beg others not to say bad things about pit bulls. What you NEVER hear from the pit bull community, however, is what THEY propose to do to solve the pit bull crisis. Pit bull people want to claim that the pit bull crisis is all just a public relations issue--and if people wouldn't just say truthful things about pit bulls, somehow pit bulls wouldn't have killed 21 people in 2007 alone.

Unfortunately for the pit bull community and especially unfortunately for pit bulls, the pit bull crisis is a reality, not a PR problem. Pit bulls die in horrific numbers in shelters because almost all of them are bred by totally irresponsible people. These same irresponsible people are frequently breeding FOR dangerousness (either to other dogs or to people or both). Hence the fact that pit bulls are usually dog aggressive and lead the ranks (by a huge margin) of the kinds of dog who kill people.

These problems are not going to go away because "responsible" pit bull owners whine when people talk about them and ask us to notice that their pit bull is wearing a pink collar so she must be nice. In order to make inroads into the horrible problems pit bulls cause and have there need to be breed specific laws regulating pit bull breeding.

Mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls who are not AKC or UKC-PR registered show dogs would be a good first step. Which pit bull people here support that proposal? (Prediction: None will. THey want to whine about how bad things are for pit bulls, but they also want to protect the "rights" of pit bull breeders to grossly overbreed pit bulls destined to suffer and possibly kill).

If this pit bull had had a responsible breeder, this problem wouldn't have happened. The breeder almost certainly wouldn't have sold the dog in the first place to the irresponsible brother-in-law (or whomever) who got the dog and then dumped it on Rafael. In any case, if the irresponsible brother-in-law couldn't keep the dog, a RESPONSIBLE pit bull breeder would have required that the dog needs to come back to the breeder, not be dumped on some relative who doesn't want it and can't care for it permanently.

Rafael, you have fallen through the looking glass into the bizarre world of the "pit bull activists". Your blog post has been posted on pit bull discussion boards, so you will be flooded with all manner of "pit bull spam"... false cut and paste statistics and quotes by "experts" like Diane Jessup, who is a breeder, who has a lot to lose financially if these dogs are regulated. You may also be threatened and harrassed, because these people include what is widely considered the "lunatic fringe" of dog owners.

The pit bull fans expect us to believe that Labs retrieve, hounds will follow a scent, terriers will dig, and border collies will herd...but miraculously, dogs who were created to kill other dogs simply need love and training to lose that genetic drive; in essence, the laws of science and biology don't apply to pit bulls.

The number of "responsible" pit bull breeders in this country is statistically insignificant; some poster above claims that "responsible" breeders are breeding away from dog aggression, anyone in the show world knows that is a lie. Dog aggression is accepted as part of the breed standard, in Amstaffs and APBTs. The generic pit bull in the picture was bred either by a dog fighter, a drug dealer, or some 19 year old high school drop out who thought he could make a few bucks. As cignet1 said, the dog wouldn't have ended up with you if it came from a "good" breeder. And the stakes are pretty high when you are betting the genetics of a dog bred for killing against the life of a child.

Many years ago, I saw a pit bull kill another dog in an unprovoked attack. There was no warning at all....not a growl or snarl or stare or anything...just BOOM, grab the other dog by the throat, and shake it until it stopped screaming. Several adults beat the pit bull in the head, but it wouldn't let go until they beat it unconscious. You can't train a dog to do that....you can't train self-preservation out of an animal, but you can BREED for it.

Ignore the testimonials...anmd the pit bull spam.

Cygnet,

Again, you raise interesting points. I suspect you're onto something regarding the breeder. I do have to wonder about anyone who would give or sell a dog to this particular member of my family (not my brother-in-law, but that's not the point).

I am uncertain about the dog's breeding. Since I didn't get him myself, I don't really know if he was bred by responsible AKC members or by, shall we say, a less reputable segment of our society. Not knowing the answer to that question leads me to be more suspicious. Should it? I do have to say that this dog has shown strength, clumsiness and energy, but thus far no malice or aggressiveness. Is it possible for a dog to be bred to be a time bomb?

I disagree, by the way, with your prediction that no reponsible breeders will support spaying and neutering. I suspect you go too far in saying "show dogs" only, but in my interactions with responsible dog owners and breeders over the years, all of them favor spaying and neutering requirements. Again, I'm speaking for those I've talked to. That's not a scientific poll.

I also think it's not necessarily fair to say almost all pit bulls are bred by irresponsible people. Is that what you meant to say? I think most of the pit bulls who are euthanized in shelters are bred by irresponsible people (excluding those put down because of age after a long, happy life). I agree if that's the point you were trying to make.

Thanks for the warning, Sue. I sent links to the post to a number of pit-friendly web site administrators to counter my position (which I myself characterized as paranoid and bigoted, after all). If folks want to have a healthy, respectful discussion, they can. If they want to vent, they can.

It's hard not to be paranoid when you are exposed to one side of the story so often. No one calls the press when a pit bull licks a kid's face. But when the same dog bites the same kid's face, we're there. And as much as people complain about the media, the same people would lose their minds if we ignored such stories.

That, to me, is the biggest value of this discussion: that we're all able to agree or disagree based on facts, emotions, concerns, experiences and decisions, without a horrific incident at the center of the discussion.

cygnet1-The pitbull owners I know support spay/neuter. Many organizations including pitbull specific rescues offer spay/neuter assistance but the pet overpopulation isn't limited to pitbulls. If you are going to make mandatory spay/neuter laws why not make them for all dogs?

Or have you missed all the stories of intact dogs of other breeds attacking?

I hardly think that people posting their comments about a subject is "Spam". You are certainly entitled to your own opinion and have posted plenty of messages so what makes you different from the other people posting their comments?

You wrote:

"What you NEVER hear from the pit bull community, however, is what THEY propose to do to solve the pit bull crisis"

This statement could not be further from the truth. Please take a moment to look at a few pitbull rescue websites as well as pitbull information sites.

Would you like some ideas? Low/Cost spay neuter programs need to be offered in our communities, low/cost training programs should be offered for people who may otherwise not be able to afford training.

We need to increase the sentences for people found guilty of animal cruelty and they need to be prevented from ever owning a pet again. The community needs to be more vigilant about reporting mistreatment of animals.

Animal control agencies need to be better staffed so they can follow up on the calls. No dog should be chained at any time.

Owners of ALL BREEDS should be encouraged to take their dogs to obtain their CGC. Safety around animals needs to be taught in school and by parents.

I am so tired of websites like dogsbite.org assuming that all pitbull owners want to do is defend the breed without taking action. It couldn't be further from the truth.

No dog owner, parent or human being wants to see any person injured. If those injuries could have been prevented then we need to make sure it does not happen again.

This is where the frustration comes in. The media is constantly missing the point when it comes to the real factors behind an attack.

Was the dog well socialized? Did it display resource guarding? Was it sick or injured? Was is intact? Was it abused? You will rarely see any of these details in a dog attack story but if the dog head a big head you can bet the word PITBULL will be splashed accross the headline.

I find it shocking that in the year 2009 we still allow any kind of discrimination based of physical appearance and that people find it so acceptable to generalize.

Confused: that was Sue who referred to spam, not cygnet. (Your name shows up after your comment, not above it).

The pit bull lover's page I cited in my opening post has some good advice here: http://www.pitbulllovers.com/responsible-pit-bull-owners.html

Here's a snippet:

"5. Supervise your dog with small children. This is a must. Small children are often hurt by dogs not out of angry, but because dogs can scratch them, step on them, and otherwise injure them.

"6. Spay or Neuter your dog. Unless you plan on doing something where the dog can not be spayed or neutered get it done. This will reduce accidental breedings and stop roaming males from getting loose.

"7. Train your dog. Take your dog to obedience classes or hire a private trainer to help you train your dog. This is very important for Pit Bull owners. If you can not control your dog bad things will eventually happen. Get your dog into training as soon as possible."

Sue, you must be part of dogsbite.org, which is known to happily post misinformation and is more a group of witch-hunters carrying pitchforks than a group of experienced individuals. Also, they filter comments made that don't support their cause to make sure their view is as biased as possible.

Yes, Sue, many pit bull owners are very passionate about the subject. Why? Because we actually have experience for the breed and can attest to how wonderful they really are. They've been in existence for over a century. Tell me why they didn't get in the spotlight until the last decade or two. Could it be because it's now the dog of choice for morons, instead of the "good citizens" in the past that owned them (Helen Keller, our president, etc)? The same decent members of society are now blinded by claims that they're vicious beasts that cannot be trusted. There were 23 fatalities in 2008 caused by 10 different breeds. There are millions of pit bulls in the country. Even if all 23 were caused by these dogs, that's an extremely small percentage.

Dog aggression is a common trait in this breed, and any knowledgeable owner will not deny this. However, it has absolutely nothing to do with human aggression. Every veterinarian/obedience class my dog has been to always starts with a questionnaire that asks if the dog has aggression towards humans and if it has aggression towards animals. Why two separate questions? They're two different issues.

Diane Jessup is much more experienced than you with the breed, and I challenge you to dispute that. Her dog is the most titled dog in history, out of any breed. Her dogs are breed worthy.

Cygnet1, you are incorrect. Responsible owners are very supportive of spay/neuter requirements. Ask about breeding at any pit-bull site/forum, and you will be bombarded with reasons why you shouldn't. Again, my dog was spayed soon after getting her, and I never had intentions of breeding.

I find it interesting that nobody can understand people do actually enjoy these dogs as pets. It seems that some believe there must be some drugs to protect, dog fights to win, or money to be made.

Sorry. I wanted an athletic, friendly, intelligent, easy-to-groom, medium sized dog that I could compete in agility or athletic competitions with and succeed. A pit bull happens to fit all of these and being able to ensure a good home for one made the decision easier.

Yes, there will be a lot of pro-pit bull "spam" here because unfortunately the dogs can't speak and someone has to speak up against the misinformation that runs rampant.

Sorry it was to be addressed to both Sue and Cygnet. Most of what I was responding to were the comments from Cygnet but the spam comment was for Sue. Or any member of dogsbite.org

Great comment confused. I've never seen a pit bull community who hasn't offered alternate routes to helping the issues of violent dogs and who supports breeding.

The communities I'm a part of will let you know rather quickly how they feel on breeding. We are all well aware of the reasons for the issues and despise irresponsible breeders as much as, and most likely more than, the typical person.

They are ruining the breed we love. We would like something done as much as the anti-pitbull activists, we just understand that a ban will not attack the root of the problem. Fortunately, anyone experienced and educated on canines understands this as well. The hard part is teaching the general public that breed isn't the problem, it's those that choose to follow leash laws and common sense.

Sorry, I meant the problems are created by those that refuse to follow leash laws and common sense. Allowing your young child to roam unsupervised around a unaltered male pit bull who has spent his entire life on a chain in the backyard is not utilizing common sense.

Many knowledgeable dog owners understand that banning these dogs is not the answer, but support mandatory spay and neuter, and microchipping, for pit bulls. I can go onto Petfinder and prove that between 20% and 100% of the dogs in all my local shelters are pit bulls, and that doesn't include the pit bull only rescues. I am in Massachusetts, where spay and neuter education works so well we import puppies and dogs from high kill shelters down south, and street dogs from Puerto Rico, to fill the demand for rescue dogs. The ONLY population we can't seem to "educate" is pit bull owners... pit bulls still flood local shelters because there is a market for fighting dogs, and dogs to guard drug operations. There's money to be made breeding pit bulls for nefarious purposes....the only way to stop it is to make it illegal.

I don't believe that relentlessly promoting the dogs as wonderful pets for most families is the solution...in fact, its part of the problem. Pit bull fanciers are so desperate to portray the dogs as misunderstood victims, they deny the limitations the breed has as a family pet; specifically, the very real issue of explosive dog aggression. I know of many situations where misguided families adopted a pit bull, only to have it viciously attack a neighbors dog...in some cases, people were injured trying to save their dog from a pit bull attack.

This leads to public outrage, which leads to calls for banning these dogs. The more you insist the dogs are "just like any other dogs", the more pit bull owners will believe you...and when they take their dog to the dog park, and it slaughters another dog, the folks who want bans will be proved right once again.

In my neighborhood, we have almost every breed of dog imaginable, from Rottweilers to beagles, Westies, Labs, airdales, mutts, etc. The ONLY dogs we have ever had problems with have been pit bulls.

Again, you're grouping the problematic pitbull owners with the responsible ones. Any community of responsible owners will suggest NOT going to a dog park with them. We understand dog aggression isn't uncommon, although it isn't an issue with every one.

I know there are millions in shelters. I know they are grossly overbred. Those are irresponsible people, and none of the "pit bull fanciers" support what they do. We don't like it, and we don't agree with it.

The problem with the suggested "solutions" is it only focuses on pit bulls. Spay/neuter needs to be done with all breeds. There needs to be more punishment for owners with dangerous dogs. Breeding needs to be regulated. Setting the laws specifically for pit bulls is ridiculous, because if they are banned the idiots of the world will simply move to another breed. The laws do not need to be breed specific, and let me reiterate that many of the problems could be resolved by simply enforcing the leash laws.

I don't want people to breed their pit bulls, take them to dog parks, let them roam unleashed, etc. It disgusts me. Banning the dog won't teach these people WHY they shouldn't do these things, they'll just move to the next "tough" breed.

There are stupid people with every breed, but unfortunately most of them choose this breed. Try to not group every pit bull owner together as you do with the breed.

Jane, I also must ask:

Do you propose that banning a dog will cause people who have no issue with breaking the law to turn them in? They have been banned in many places yet they still continue to confiscate hundreds or more per year.

Drugs are banned, and have higher penalties, yet they continue to traffic those. Bans only affect those that follow the laws, and they aren't typically the ones to cause problems. I'd hate to be the one telling a child you have to kill their dog because of how it looks and because a small minority of people are irresponsible.

A ban is not a solution. Besides, assuming they did decide to follow a law for once and give up their dog, they'd simply get a rottweiler or other large dog.

I think yer missin my point. Or maybe yer a gettin it. Not too sure by yer response. It's just a been my experience that people that tend to be a givin up on pets, should really do some soul searchin before becomin parents. Or maybe you're right. If little Bobby-Jim gets a little aggressive with his sis, I think I'll drop him off at the local church. After all, it's much easier to take the cowards... I mean the eaaasy way. It's just a dog. Not worth nothin to nobody. Oh yeah, one more thing... my 'God' that you so fondly speak of, well if ya spell it backwards... What do ya get? Have fun in the fiery Pit boy!
Much affection and sympathy for you and yer kin, The Cowboy

But your logic is flawed...you don't want criminals and dogfighters breeding aggressive pit bulls, but you protect their right to do so...because you don't find it "fair". You know that it would be impossible to pass laws demanding mandatory spay and neuter of ALL dogs...too many variables to create a standard, too expensive, too much opposition....so you claim that you will only support mandatory s/n of pit bulls if ALL dogs are included. That way, you appear to take the high road, while still protecting the people who you admit are "destroying your breed".

You keep talking about banning the dogs...I am against banning pit bulls. But clearly, something needs to be done. In my area, we obviously don't need to regulate all breeders, because ALL breeders aren't flooding our shelters with excess dogs....pit bull breeders are. This isn't personal...it isn't about you and your dog. Your dog may be wonderful, but the vast majority of pit bulls I encounter are HIGHLY dog aggressive, and some are human aggressive,also. Every incident with these dogs in a neighborhood brings us closer to breed bans, and we all have the pit bull "activists" to thank for it.

ok, 1st, your doing what you think is best as a father. pitbull or not. id be more worried about a poodle cause the temperment states pits are better with temper. ATTS.org
2nd, for you nut jobs that think pit bulls should die off, pls do some research on the breed, dont just shoot things from your brain cause you "THINK" you know what your talking about from what you get from the media, READ about them pls. And dont search for bad pits or killer pits whatever, search for pitbull or apbt. get real. research.
3rd, you never hear of the 1000's of pits owned and never have a issue, only the few on the media. and why is it when its a pit or simialar its pitbull attacks if its anything else its a, not reported or b, dog attacks. come on people. I thought a person was smart people are stupid. seems that statment is wrong without some research.
4th, Pitbulls were used as NANNY dogs way back when i guess only drug dealing babies played with them again i say you are nut jobs. i have a pitbull, am i a drug dealer? well i do take some advil every now and benalyn if im sick with the flu. do i use him for fighting? if i do i must lose a lot cause im not rich, and they must be invisable dogs or ones with no teeth, cause not a mark on him. hmm. odd this is now no? NUT JOBS! :P
5th, these dogs are just like any other dog out there. and i know some of you are saying nope its a killing machine. check the stats do some reading. my family were all against me getting a pit, oh dont do that, bla bla bla, i got one. and everyone LOVES him.
6th, There are more attacks and kills by cattle then pitbulls? oh my LOOK OUT here comes the drugs dealers with there bling chains on the bovine. nut jobs!
7th, its a dog nothing more. i guess some of you think they have lock jaws too. LOL you people. let me see. NUT.... wait for it. JOBS!!! enjoy your close minded day.

go do some reading and then come and post again. prove me wrong with facts. not speculation. junk info you get from the news. FACTS.

oh btw, thats a nice looking apbt in the pic too :)

There is a huge difference between saying pit bull owners "support spay/neuter" and saying that pit bull owners support mandatory, breed specific spay/neuter for pit bulls that shouldn't be bred.

If you google "free spay/neuter for pit bulls" and you will see that there are many dog rescue organizations all over the country offering absolutely free spay/netuers to anything that looks like a pit bull on a BREED SPECIFIC basis. (Funny, pit bull people who are otherwise so obsessed with "fairness" never seem to complain about these breed specific programs.) Some of these programs even flat out PAY people to spay their pit bulls and still the pit bull overpopulation problem continues to get worse and worse.

It continues because, as Jane points out, there is money to be made breeding pit bulls and pit bull breeders (for the most part) don't care that their actions are hurting dogs and killing an occasional child.

Saying that "responsible" pit bull owners are wringing their hands and post "rant" posts on their bulletin boards over this carnage is pretty empty when you realize that virtually all of even the "responsible" pit bull owners/breeders vehemently OPPOSE the kinds of laws necessary to put irresponsible pit bull breeders out of business. They immeidately start whining about how "unfair" and "racist" such laws are and how Helen Keller had a pit bull and Petey was a pit bull.

Again, "responsible" pit bull owners claim not to "like" or to "agree" with irresponsible pit bull breeders (who comprise the VAST majority of all pit bull breeders, including, certainly, the breeder of Rafael's dog) but they vehemently oppose the breed specific legislation necessary to control these people and put them out of business.

Neither Jane nor I are proposing breed bans. Indeed, the only way to protect the rights of people who can responsibly own pit bulls (probably the minority of current pit bull owners, but certainly many people) is to address the problems that pit bulls have and cause. And since "education" (including PAYING people not to breed more pit bulls) has simply not worked, the next step to control the actions of the powerful who want to hurt the powerless is to pass laws protecting the powerless.

Mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes. Mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs.

Everybody wins and people like Rafael don't get stuck with pit bulls they don't want.

Dave,

Again, the ATTS tests was designed to test for aptitude for "bitework" sports, such as schutzhund. It tests for boldness by looking at factors such as how the dog responds to gunshots, unfamiliar footing, an umbrella opening in his face, etc. It has worthless as a test of whether the dog is potentially dangerous. The only way a pit bull would flunk the ATTS test for being dangerous to people is if he was so flat out dangerous that he tried to attack/bite a friendly stranger. Such pit bulls exist, but their owners don't pay $35 to have them take the ATTS test. A pit bull can want to kill every other dog he sees and still pass the ATTS test with flying colors since it doesn['t even purport to test for dog aggression.

As far as I can tell, no poodle has ever killed a person in this country. Pit bulls killed 21 people in 2007 alone. So saying that the ATTS test results indicate that pit bulls are less dangerous to people than poodles means that you should be sort of skeptical of those results, don't you think?

Rafael,

Your dog wasn't bred by "responsible AKC breeders." For one thing, he has a "red" nose. That is unacceptable in the AKC AmStaff standard. For another thing, he would be microchipped if he was bred by ANY responsible pit bull breeder (no matter if AKC or UKC). They would have listed themselves (at least) as an alternate contact if he got in trouble. Take him to the vet or a shelter and have them scan him for a microchip. (You won't find one.

You therefore KNOW that this pit bull wasn't bred by a responsible breeder. Maybe you are lucky and got a pit bull whose breeder was irresponsible but nonetheless either bred for good temperament or just lucked into it. But enough pit bull breeders breed for horrible, dangerous temperaments that the San Francisco ASPCA (which puts a huge emphasis on being "no-kill") refuses to adopt out pit bulls who come from unknown sources. Even if they pass temperament tests, the SF ASPCA has found the risk is too great with this breed.

The people who promote pit bulls and declare that pit bulls are wonderful are the LOBBYISTS that make money from pit bulls and benefit from deluding the public

The breeders, the dog fighters, the "rescuers" who make a living in "donations" by creating the illusion of oppression

Even pit bulls that have been properly raised from puppyhood are attacking and killing.

Pit bulls are different.

Wow cygnet1,
You've really closed my eyes! You’re right! Pit bulls are dangerous. We should outlaw em. Hey, let's go ahead and out law dogs in general. Cats too! That will take care of all the dangers of being bitten. Then, let's move on to kids! Little Jimmy, if you don't pass them there F-cats, that means you get neutered. Don't want you spreading those dangerous genes around. You might be a threat sometime in the near future. I'm callin Tom Cruiz and the future crimes unit. We'll put all of the rest of the kids in big plastic bubbles to keep em safe. Mommas gonna make all of your nightmares come true.
Mommas gonna put all of her fears into you.
"Mommas gonna keep you right here under her wing.
She wont let you fly, but she might let you sing.
Mommas gonna keep baby cozy and warm.
Oooo babe.
Oooo babe.
Ooo babe, of course mommas gonna help build a wall.
Mother, did it need to be so high?" Pink Floyd

Dang people. There are better ways to go about making people responsible for their pets. I've never met such closed-minded, morons as I have since I've moved to South Florida. I mean, this state alone must bring down the whole country in terms of I-Q.

Rafael, please don't buy into the "responsible AKC breeder" thing.

They tell you that, but it isn't true.

AKC breeders, no matter what fairy tales they tell, are in the BUSINESS of breeding and selling dogs, and they want no regulation to interfere with their business and incomes.

"Responsible" is a fairly meaningless term. "Responsible" AKC breeders are selling aggressive dogs, dogs with genetic defects despite the "testing."

If I could, I could detail here ongoing problems with supposedly respected AKC "show breeders" and their dogs!

AKC breeders also oppose any kind of regulation to protect public safety.

Profiting from dog sales is the number one and only agenda of the AKC.

The AKC makes most of its money from registering puppy mill dogs, for example. http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/Bouvier/Bouv_Pages/article-inquire-puppymills-AKC.htm

That is why the AKC and AKC breeders oppose puppy mill regulations. Fewer puppy mill registrations, not enough money for dog shows and purebred dog sale promotion.

Lok up "akc puppy mills" in a google search.

AKC Staffordshire Terrier (pit bull) breeders are also lobbying WITH some known dog fighter breeders to oppose regulations, and to promote the concept that pit bulls are ok.

The AKC and its breeders are far from responsible! That is an illusion they would love us all to have so we won't look too closely at what they do and how they operate.

Pit bulls were never "nanny dogs." This is a lie made up by pit bull breeders to get sympathy and oppose regulation.

Pit bulls have a high prey drive (which even many pit bull people acknowledge!) which is why they also have issues with attacking babies and children.

And breeders are not trying to "breed out" aggression or prey drive. Most pit bulls are bred by dog fighters and criminal types. They want the aggression kept in and enhanced!

Notice how many pit bull owners say their dogs are "service dogs." This is not true. Pit bulls make very poor service dogs because of high prey drive, which means they are not predicatable around other animals. That puts the person in danger when in public, or even if a pet walks by their house.

No respected service dog organization uses pit bulls.

The "service dog" ploy is designed to manipulate.

The ATTS (or American Temperament Testing Society) is NOT "independent."

It is run by PIT BULL BREEDERS, and its "tests" have been proven to be unscientific and mere promotion of pit bulls, and cover for pit bull problems.

You can see how much money there is to be made in the pit bull trade when these people fabricate false front groups and fake "science" to try to cover pit bull issues & oppose regulation so they can keep making money!

Jane, again, what makes you think the criminals will follow the anti-breeding laws?

Let me repeat that I'm all for spay/neuter laws, but it does not need to be confined to a single breed. If it was confined to pit bulls, I would still be for it, BUT it also needs to be done for all dogs. Why localize it to pit bulls when there are plenty of other breeds being put through hell in puppy mills? The spay/neuter laws need to be put in place for dogs in general.

I know it would be expensive, so are any specific laws for just pit bulls. You think it won't be expensive for all the court cases that will occur when the city/state/country is forced to prove that a dog is in fact one of the banned pit bull breeds? There have been a number of these cases already, and even with a DNA test the results aren't conclusive. Putting the laws in effect for all breeds would prevent this...

Cowboy,

Your posts brought a smile to me today. Your criticisms, while perfectly fair, don't apply in my specific case. The shoe don't fit.

It's precisely because I take dog ownership as a serious obligation demanding my time, commitment and dedication that I refuse to offer this dog anything less!

Best Friends Animal Sanctuary TURNS AWAY PIT BULLS FROM THEIR OWN STATE! They can't handle them because of threat to the other animals and high rate of biting.

Before they took the Vick pit bulls (for which they got lots of money and are using the Vick pit bulls to make more money) they REFUSED pit bulls in their own backyard!

For Best Friends, the Vick dogs are a moneymaker, and they too are involved in pit bull promotion and deceit to make money, pure and simple.

Rafael, also please be aware that pit bull breeders and dog fighters have been caught in the act of posting on forums and news stories and claiming to be everything from veterinarians to medical doctors to executives and everything in between. They all claim to be "responsible."

This lobby will say or do anything to try to impress and manipulate.

This is all about the money! The money to be made from pit bulls and dog breeding, and that is a bigger industry than many people realize

Oh no! The conspiracy!

TJ, it's funny that you believe we're all pit bull breeders. For the third time (in this single article), my dog was spayed as soon as I could get it done. I can post pictures of the scar if you believe this is a ruse. Again, visit a pit bull "lobbyist" community and you'll see that a vast majority of them have pit bulls that are altered. Take your aluminum foil hat off and quit believing everyone's out to get you.

Also, please cite the sources of your information that ATTS is run by pit bull breeders? And to the one that said it's used for bitework, if so then why did a majority of the other breeds still have a higher percentage of failure rate? Even if they did fail a dog only if it was completely unstable, that just means that other breeds have a higher rate of being completely unstable.

It's humorous seeing those calling people posting factual information as "insane" while you spout off about a huge conspiracy that has somehow infiltrated every respected canine group.

Best Friends wouldn't accept pit bulls before the Vick case? Where did you get that bit of information? Their website shows a clear picture of an obvious pit bull since well before the Vick case. The dogs were sent to shelters that were deemed experienced enough to deal with the dogs from the case, and they wouldn't have sent the dogs to a location if the location has never dealt with the breed.

Again, quit with your conspiracy theories until you back up at least one of your claims with a source.

I think you're really an alien from outer space who's civilization was destroyed by pit bulls millions of years ago in a galaxy light-years away, and you're just coming here to attempt to avenge the death of your ancestors who were forced to leave the planet after years of pit bull tyranny...

lol.

Rafael, you also should know that the reason that all the pit bull breeders, promoters, dog fighters and the like are here bullying you or spreading propaganda about pit bulls is that a link to your column got posted on one of their lobbying sites, with a request to "let you have it."

This is the kind of organized manipulation the pit bull lobby engages in.

Any article or column that has the least hint of question about pit bulls, they post a link on one of their lobbying forums or sites and they swing into action with the fairy tales or the threats.

These posters are not innocent doggie lovers.

Thanks TJ, I agree with you. I'm not sure why there are so many consipiricy theories especially when the same people that are accusing pitbull owners of having large amounts of lobby power and pull with respected organizations are also accusing pitbull owners of being drug dealers and criminals.

I can't figure out which it is, am I a superpower of a deadbeat?

I rescued a dog (pitbull), had him fixed, took him to training school and socialized him. I donate my time to helping other people be responsible owners. I have no issue with my neighbors or my landlord concerning my dog. He is well liked by my friends and family (parents and children included)

TJ-your posts a full of false accustations which you don't seem to have any evidence to support. It's basically slander.

The first part of my post was meant to be for Jorsher not TJ. I do not agree with TJ at all.

With regard to breeders and spaying and neutering laws, the AKC adamantly opposes them (because these would hurt their puppy mill business partners, and because many AKC breeders are operating illegal businesses and don't want to get licensed)

Here is a lobbying group that works with the AKC and AKC breed clubs to oppose spay neuter laws with deception, fake statistics, anything

http://www.petpacnonsense.com/

The lobbyist who runs this is an AKC dog breeder

Look under the AKC tab, but also the Petpac & COPS tab (another organization this same breeder lobbyist runs)

This lobbyist was engaged in this activity "In 1993 and 1994, COPS used a fund-raising company in Orange County that bullied and threatened scores of Hispanic Santa Ana residents, according to police reports.

In that instance, which resulted in two felony convictions, phone solicitors threatened to cut off 911 services if contributions weren't made. Records seized during an undercover Santa Ana police sting detailed nearly 350 contributions totaling $ 12,640. All the contributions bore Hispanic surnames"

The AKC breeder lobbyist who engaged in these lobbying and fundraising tactics (through his group COPS) now WORKS WITH AKC BREEDERS TO OPPOSE SPAY NEUTER LAWS (through his group PetPac)

AKC and too many of its breeders are far from "responsible!"

TJ - I think the AKC comment is about the only subject I can somewhat agree with you on. A lot of puppy mills rely on a license from the FDA, though, and don't have any relations with AKC. Sorry, but I have no ties with AKC and never will. They've turned many breeds into useless "show" dogs based on how they look instead of what they can actually do. APBT/AmStaffs are one of the few breeds left that can actually do work. The AKC "bulldog" has no resemblance to the original TRUE bulldog, which pit bulls are derived from.

Anyway, your other statements are still insane and I'm still waiting for some documented proof of your claims.

Just before Best Friends took the Vick pit bulls and the money, as reported by kvbc in Las Vegas (where the non-Vick Utah pit bulls ended up getting dumped)

" Dozens of dogs rescued from dire conditions, trucked across state lines and left to become someone else's problem. That's what a local rescue group says happened with more than 40 pit bulls.

There's only one pit bull rescue in Las Vegas, and the two-person operation has gone through thousands of dollars trying to save the lives of Utah dogs they say were dumped here in Las Vegas.

Charlene Baroni has worked hard and spent a great deal of time to keep these pit bulls alive after they were seized by a Utah sheriff from a hoarder.

"They were scheduled to be euthanized if they stayed in Washington County, Utah. So, Las Vegas opened their arms to these dogs when nobody else would take them," explains Baroni.

Not even Best Friends, the world's largest animal sanctuary, which is based on a 33,000 acre ranch in a neighboring Southern Utah County, would take them."

BEST FRIENDS WOULD NOT TAKE NEEDY PIT BULLS FROM THEIR OWN STATE, but took the Vick pit bulls and hundreds of thousands of dollars to use the Vick pit bulls as fundraisers and donation tools, and to try to get press attention to get those donations.

From an ap article

"South Milwaukee banned new pit bulls from its community after several attacks in the early 1990s, Mayor Thomas Zepecki said.

Since then, there have been only a few incidents involving other breeds, he said. They are punished under a different ordinance.

"As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't change it," Zepecki said of the ban."

I personally don't think it takes a ban. But breed specific regulations WORK, for the welfare of pit bulls too.

Breeders, however, don't care about public safety or the welfare of the dogs. Breeders care about the profits, and regulations may affect those profits.

Ok, so an ethical problem with that particular shelter.

However, here was your statement:

"They can't handle them because of threat to the other animals and high rate of biting."

I didn't notice where the article claimed that, so it seems to be created in your own head. They may not have taken them in that instance, but they've taken many throughout their existence. Maybe they didn't have the funding for more at the time? If this was the case, then I can see why they would take the Vick dogs anyway. Shelters are typically strapped for cash.

Fact is, neither you nor me knows why the shelter didn't take them, but we know it's not because "a high rate of biting." They've always had pit bulls, even previous to Vick.

Oh, so comments made by mayors are now considered valid evidence while comments made by dog experts are "obviously" only because they're entrenched in the underground pit bull agenda?

Ok:

"The Dutch government says it will lift a long-standing ban on pit bulls because it did not lead to any decrease in bite incidents.

Agriculture Minister Gerda Verburg has informed parliament of the decision, which follows the advice of a commission of experts appointed to review the policy.

Instead, the country will focus on enforcing local leashing laws and owner education programs.

Spokesman Koen Geelink said Monday the ministry hopes to have a new policy in place by year-end, in which dogs that have displayed aggression will be tested by an expert.

The country banned the breeding and possession of pit bulls in 1993, after three children were killed by the dogs."

sigh.

TJ- According to Karen Delise (who does NOT EVEN HAVE A PIT BULL but has Boxers) of National Canine Research Council, the following has been found...

FATAL DOG ATTACKS: THE TRUTH BEHIND THE TRAGEDY
IT’S THE OWNER, NOT THE DOG
A National Canine Research Council Year-End Report: 2007

Extensive research and investigation using 40 years of data has conclusively identified the reckless and criminal ownership practices that can cause a dog to become dangerous:

OWNER MANAGEMENT & CONTROL OF DOGS
Owners failing to humanely contain, control and maintain their dogs (chained dogs, loose roaming dogs, cases of abuse/neglect), and owners failing to properly supervise interaction between children and dogs.

FUNCTION OF DOG
Owners maintaining dogs for guarding/protection, fighting, intimidation/status, or as yard dogs. Such dogs are resident dogs, not family pets.

REPRODUCTIVE STATUS OF DOG
Owners failing to spay or neuter animals not used for competition, show, or in a responsible breeding program.

91% of all fatal dog attacks from 2005-2007 were due to one or more of these critical factors.

Tabulations of fatal dog attacks by breed yield no understanding of human/canine interaction and offer no remedies to enhance community safety. Forty years ago, Pit bulls and Rottweilers combined were involved in less than 2% of all fatal attacks.* Nevertheless, one or more of these same critical factors was evident in 90% of all fatal dog attacks during that time.

From 2005-2007, increased focus on the negligent and criminal human behaviors has resulted in 31% of owners and/or parents of young victims being criminally charged.

HOLDING OWNERS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE HUMANE TREATMENT, CONTAINMENT, AND CONTROL OF THEIR DOGS IS THE ONLY WAY TO MINIMIZE INCIDENCE OF CANINE AGGRESION.

Behind the Statistics: The True Tragedy

Statistical numbers and general analysis of fatal dog attack cases often fail to convey the true degree of negligence and the terribly tragic circumstances experienced by both the victim and the dog. Statistics often present an impersonal and detached examination of traumatic events.

The case below occurred in 2007 and is cited to convey, on a personal and emotional level, the preventable tragedy found in the overwhelming majority of cases of fatal dog attacks, both past and present. In this classic example it is very clear how negligent and abusive owner behavior resulted in dire circumstances for both the child and the dog.

THE BOY AND THE DOG: A NEW YORK TRAGEDY

The Boy:

* A two-year old boy is bitten in the throat by his father's "guard" dog.
* The father faults his two-year-old son for crawling too close to the dog's food bowl.
* Two months later, the boy's visiting grandmother is attacked and bitten by the same dog. She requires treatment at the local hospital.
* The father is charged with owning a dangerous dog and owning an unlicensed dog.
* Child Protective Services monitors the father, child and home to ensure that his son is not exposed to the dog, which is still on the premises.
* Three months later, the boy is found, alone and unsupervised, in the backyard, crawling in high grass near the shore of a lake. His father says he is unconcerned, as the lake is “not very deep.”
* During the months following the guard dog is seen chained outside, but then disappears.
* Three years later, the father obtains a new “family" dog.

The Dog:

* At five-weeks of age, the tan, male pup is sold to a man - call him Owner # 2 - for $100.00
* One month later, Owner # 2 complains the 10-week-old puppy is "hard to house train" and gives the dog to a new owner, Owner # 3.
* Owner # 3 locks the dog in the basement and "forgets" to feed him.
* After a couple of months, the dog is given to Owner # 4, who feels sorry that the dog has been locked in the basement without food.
* Owner # 4 only keeps the dog for a couple of months before giving the dog to Owner # 5. Owner # 4 explains that she is moving, and cannot be bothered to take the dog with her.
* Owner # 5, the father in question, chains the dog to a large scrap metal heap.

Boy Meets Dog:

Owner # 5 has had the dog for less than a week when he allows his son to go out and feed the dog, which is still chained to the pile of scrap metal. Fifteen minutes later, the boy is found dead, lying amid the junk, entangled in the dog’s chain. The food bowl is found upside down and empty.

Two days later, Owner # 5 has the dog killed. He later pleads guilty to misdemeanor endangering the welfare of a child and is sentenced to one year conditional discharge – he is already on probation for another offense – and is prohibited from owning a dog for a year.

The news stories about this tragedy all described the dog as the “family dog.”

What About Breed & Breed Statistics?

The fundamental flaw found when using breed and/or statistics to define canine behavior is that it gives no recognition to natural canine behaviors and ignores dangerous ownership practices. Or, in other words, the behaviors which directly played a role in an individual case of fatal canine aggression are ignored, while breed history, image and statistics are discussed.

This approach at addressing canine aggression can be dangerous, because it either ignores or refuses to acknowledge the very real canine and human behaviors that have played a direct role in cases of canine aggression and teaches us nothing about the prevention of dog attacks.

Recently, some organizations, groups and individuals are keeping "track" of Pit bull and dog-related fatalities as found reported in the media. Inevitably, using media sources to track fatal dog attacks will yield inaccurate numbers and seriously flawed conclusions on the types of dogs involved in these attacks and the circumstances surrounding them. The media has repeatedly proven not to be a reliable source of information on dog attacks.

Do Pit Bulls Inflict Injuries Unlike Other Breeds of Dogs?

Descriptions of the type of fatal injuries dogs have inflicted on their few unfortunate victims is a graphic topic that NCRC has been hesitant to address. Fatal dog attacks are exceedingly rare occurrences; and in light of the fact that many people already harbor a highly disproportionate fear of being killed by a dog, there seemed no useful purpose in addressing the nature and type of injuries a victim sustained during such an attack, nor do we wish to compromise the privacy of victims or sensationalize their tragedies.

Unfortunately, selected groups and individuals are making claims about the severity and nature of Pit bull attacks versus the severity and nature of other (non-bully) breed attacks and exposing victims' identities and descriptions of victims' injuries to forward their personal theories and agenda.

Virtually all of the claims about the "unique damage that Pit bulls inflict" are made by individuals or special interest groups with no knowledge or experience in analyzing fatal dog bite injuries. For this reason, the NCRC feels compelled to address these tactics and claims.

For nearly two decades the NCRC has investigated and analyzed fatal dog attack injuries. The NCRC has previously stated that it is impossible to determine the breed of dog by reviewing an autopsy report or photo, as no breed of dog has a particular method of attack or inflicts an exclusive type of injury.

Below is a list of 15 different victims of a dog attack along with the description of the fatal wounds as listed on the autopsy report. Each victim was attacked and killed by a single dog. Each victim was killed by a different breed of dog (for a total of 15 different breeds*). Only one victim was killed by a Pit bull (or any type of bully breed).

*
Victim 1: Multiple penetrating wounds to the abdomen
*
Victim 2: Collapsed lungs, multiple wounds to the chest, partial devourment
*
Victim 3: Massive head and neck injuries
*
Victim 4: Multiple bite wounds, dismemberment
*
Victim 5: Extensive scalp and neck injuries
*
Victim 6: Multiple lacerations of scalp and neck, depressed skull fracture
*
Victim 7: Exsanguination from multiple bite wounds
*
Victim 8: Skull fracture and severe bites to upper back and face
*
Victim 9: Multiple penetrating wounds to back and chest
*
Victim 10: Severe bite wounds to the head
*
Victim 11: Severe bites, massive bleeding, broken facial & neck bones
*
Victim 12: Massive head injuries
*
Victim 13: Severe, multiple penetrating injuries to head and neck
*
Victim 14: Massive bite injuries to lower extremities, dismemberment
*
Victim 15: Severe scalp, facial wounds, laceration of jugular

Fifteen different breeds inflicted the fatal wounds listed above. The breeds were:

*
Siberian husky
*
Coonhound
*
Dachshund
*
Chow chow
*
Pit bull
*
Sheepdog-type dog
*
Malamute
*
Labrador Retriever
*
Chesapeake Bay Retriever
*
St. Bernard
*
German Shepherd dog
*
Wolfdog
*
Golden Retriever
*
Mixed breed (no discernable breed visible)
*
Rottweiler

It is virtually impossible for anyone to match the breed of dog with the fatal injuries listed above - as such - claims that one breed of dog inflicts injuries unlike other breeds have no merit.

(Fatal wounds / breed matches can be obtained upon request).

* Breeds were chosen for this sample only if the breed has been involved in more than one human fatality (i.e., Airedale Terrier, Pomeranian, Jack Russell Terrier, et.al, were not used as only one human fatality has been attributed to each of these breeds in the United States).
* In the decade between 1966-1975, less than 2% of all dogs involved in fatal attacks in the United States were of the breeds which today are targeted so frequently as the solution to canine aggression, (Pit Bull or Rottweiler).

www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com

" A lot of puppy mills rely on a license from the FDA, though, and don't have any relations with AKC"

You mean the USDA.

The breeders that market puppies with AKC registrations through pet stores etc are those same USDA licensed puppy mill breeders that have piles of complaints and citations.

AKC has a business deal with Hunte Corporation and Petland. They market USDA licensed puppy mill puppies.

And we all have seen the expose in the news lately about the horrific cruelty at these USDA puppy mill breeders that supply Petland etc and register through AKC.

USDA itself admits it can't handle the puppy mill problem.

But the AKC gladly is in business with these puppy mill breeders and makes money from this cruelty.

Again, a simple google search for "akc puppy mills" reveals the sordid history of AKC and puppy mills

OK, yes USDA. I really haven't delved too much into the subject simply because it depresses me and is upsetting that there isn't much that can be done to stop it. As long as people can put two dogs together, there will be puppy mills.

I'm well aware that these mills produce pups in poor conditions, sell what they can, and then auction the rest off to pet stores. I chose to adopt my dog instead of contributing to a backyard breeder or to a pet store that gets dogs from a mill. I'm glad to see chains such as PetSmart that will only offer dogs in shelters. I'm glad that I was able to place my pit bull in a home where it receives the proper food, training, and care instead of allowing it to either die in a shelter or be sent to a home where it would be abused and end up another tragedy in the news.

TJ,
Just so you know Best Friends Animal Sanctuary receives 60+ requests per day to take in people's dogs or from shelters/rescues across the country. That is 1,800 requests per month and 21,600 requests per year! This is only dogs. I can't imagine how many calls/emails they get to take in cats, birds, horses, goats, etc...I doubt my own city's police department gets that many requests for help every year.
Even when BFAS gets called into hoarding situations in the area, they can't take in all the dogs. They only take in the WORST dogs that need rehabilitation. Other rescues and organizations around the country come on the seen to help them out. They are an animal sanctuary not SUPERMAN!!
I am forwarding your slandering comments to the director of BFAS. If someone has TIME to comment on your ridiculous accusations, I hope they will!

The National Canine Research Council has been linked to dog breeders.

Karen Delise is an aoplogist for breeders of aggressive dogs.

Her research has been debunked countless times, she uses the same breeder tactics like "blame the media."

She is not a true expert. She is just yet another propagandist and spin artist, of which there are many.

Karen Delise's "books" are also vanity published with a publisher that also does self-published comic books.

Delise is an "expert" in her own mind, and that of the breeders she represents.

Just saying you're an expert doesn't make you one. And experts connected to special interest business industries are suspect at best

What makes you the expert on who the experts are?

Please show us all your credentials on "aggressive" breeds and the causes of why dogs attack and maul people.

Are you with PETA or dogsbite.org? Because you obviously have an agenda yourself!

You are telling everyone what pit bull lovers agendas are but what's your agenda?

I have decided that you are a waste of my time spreading all your opinions as facts.

"Just so you know Best Friends Animal Sanctuary receives 60+ requests per day to take in people's dogs or from shelters/rescues across the country"

But Best Friends claims it is No Kill, and it promotes the concept everywhere that No Kill is possible without turning animals away.

Yet even in a low-populated part of the country, Best Friends cannot be a true No Kill itself.

Best Friends calls animal control to come pick up animals left at it doorstep, and animal control euthanizes them, or the animals run into the desert and die.

A Best Friends employee discussed that somewhere, which was quickly removed.

Best Friends sells No Kill, but doesn't disclose to their own donors that they can't do it.

Sorry, also, but turning away needy dogs from your own state only to take high-profile dogs that come with lots of money, and doing things like selling "Vick Dogs wine" to use these dogs as tools for money grubbing, is reprehensible and hypocritical.

I was once suckered by Best Friends until I found the truth.

The agenda for TRUE pitbull lovers:
1. save shelter dogs, especially the moms and babies that will be thrown into a gas chamber
2. SPAY and NEUTER ALL pets
3. Stop Breeders
4. cry over all of the ones that cant be saved
5. hug your dogs and give them the best life possible, pitbulls or not

One last unfortunate thing to add
6. Humanely euthanize human aggressive dogs.

Is it safe to have a pit bull and a baby? No. Nor is it safe to have a pit bull and any child, or any other pet, or have a pit bull in a neighborhood where children and pets live. To bring a dog that has been bred to fight and kill other dogs (and children are often mistaken as dogs to a dog) around other people is simply irresponsible, especially when you are going to claim this particular kind of dog poses no greater threat than any other breed. There is a reason why family pets and not fighting dogs are read about in the paper on a daily basis - dog fighters know what they have and take precautions. Families have been sold a line by advocates and have no idea how dangerous a pit bull is. For those that claim to care about these dogs - forgeting trying to change the minds of educated people, just end the severe overpopulation of pit bulls so they are only owned by people who can own them safely.

By the way, therapy pit bulls and pit bull that have passed temperment tests have gone on to attack and injure people and other animals.

Anyway, the Best Friends Sanctuary doesn't have much to do with this article. Whatever they do or don't do is still significantly more than those that complain about them do. They've still helped hundreds of animals.

They take animals that require special help to be rehabilitated, which could be the reason for not accepting any and every animal that falls on their doorstep. There's not a single shelter in the country that can accept every animal offered to them.

By your logic, there's not a single "no kill" shelter in existence, because it's not possible for no-kill shelters to accept every animal taken to them.

Turkey, I'm sure you already have this information lined up, but please direct me to information on the therapy pit bulls and ones that have passed temperament tests and gone on to attack and injure other people/animals. I stay fairly up-to-date on pit bull (and other breeds) news around the world, but have not heard of this.

I will wait patiently and probably receive a response as quickly as I've seen all the other claims backed up. Yes, I know all of the pit bull advocates back up our claims with information from evil underground network of pit bull breeders that have infiltrated the world, but I haven't seen a lick of information to disprove what has been presented.

Rafael,

Even I, a staunch advocate of responsible ownership of pit bulls, am beginning to feel a little overwhelmed by the volume of comments here. I take back what I muttered to myself when you begged off yesterday. [vbg!]

cygnet1,

You wrote, in part, "Ms. Jessup talks about people using pit bulls as "farm dogs." Right now I would wager a whole lot more pit bulls are being used (and bred) to be crackhouse guard dogs than farm dogs."

I've decided not to take your comments seriously. First you cited Ms. Jessup to prove your own contention; now you try to discredit her. In doing so you selected the least likely of several legitimate roles she listed for a pit bull. Then you pretended to have knowledge about a subject that you nothing about -- or at least I hope so. You don't have friends in the crack business do you?

I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt until I noticed your frequent use of the word "whine" to denigrate those who disagree with you.

TJ,

I'm sorry that Best Friends Animal Sanctuary has displeased you. My experience with them has been different.

From 1998 to 2004 I was a daily, volunteer dog walker/trainer at a private shelter in southern California. On several occasions Best Friends took dogs that we decided we could not place. In return we would take one or more of their most adoptable dogs. Every volunteer who made the trip was very impressed with Best Friends.

I won't swear that they do _everything_ right, but I know first-hand that they do good work. I wonder whether you have any idea of the mismatch between the number of unwanted dogs and the number of vacant spots for them in shelters. The first thing one learns in the shelter/rescue game is that you can't save them all. (We can only hope that spay/neuter programs may change that situation.)

We in the pit bull community had spirited discussions as to whether the Vick dogs should, in effect, move to the head of the line. Given the limited resources of shelters, saving one additional pit bull inevitably means killing one that otherwise would have lived.

I believe we reached a loose consensus. Showing the world that the Vick dogs are not evil is more important than maintaining standards of fairness, a concept understood only by people, not pit bulls. By showing the world that even some ex-fighting dogs can make good pets, those who gave shelter to the Vick dogs have made a point that could not have been made otherwise.

LOL.

It's a catch-22, Dave. We're encouraged to blog, but not allotted any time for doing so. My actual job takes top priority. I've been trying to keep up, but work comes first when I'm at work, family comes first when I'm at home.

If you poke around the transPARENT blog, you'll see that this has been an unusally, extraordinarily active post discussion. I thank you all for that, and for keeping disagreements civil (I hope that's not just wishful thinking).

I'm always surprised at the amount of energy that is spend critizing organizations that do their best to help.

Best Friend's is not a business it's an animal sanctuary. They may not be perfect but they certainly try their best.

I often hear the complaint that the vick dogs were taken because they came with a dowry, where exactly do people think these funds are going? I have to assume that the people who think this is a money making business don't have the slighest clue how much it costs to care for these animals.

For those that are quick to judge these organizations: Have you ever treated a heartworm positive dog, or helped one rehab after ACL surgery or an amputation? Have you ever paid for either of those things?

It unrealistic and unfair to think that because Best Friends is No Kill that they should be able to take in each an every dog that is dropped on their doorstep.

I do not work with or for Best Friends but I respect their efforts.

TJ-You seem to spend a great deal of time writing about and critizing animal welfare organizations so I'm curious...What is it that you're doing to help? (other then posting messages on people's blogs)

I have to agree with Turkey...you won't convince educated people and responsible dog owners that the solution to the pit bull problem is for everyone in America to adopt a pit bull. You certainly won't convince those of us who have experienced pit bull attacks, who have family or friends who have been attacked by a pit bull who was described by owners as "only wanting to lick you to death". You won't convince the people whose beloved family dog was killed by a pit bull, or the horse owner whose horse was mauled. You should be DEMANDING mandatory spay and neuter of all non-registered dogs...if only to spare them from being tortured by criminals and dog fighters.

Thats why true animal lovers find the "pit bull activists" motives suspect....the pro-pit lobbyists would rather see more pit bulls born into dog fighting, to suffer and die a horrible death, than agree to do ANYTHING about the rampant overpopulation by bad breeders, who produce the dogs that make the headlines. The problem with pit bulls isn't simply that nit wit owners don't spay and neuter, and have accidental litters...these dogs are deliberately bred by the worst members of society because there is money in it. Politely asking them to neuter their dogs won't work.

Pretending that you oppose s/n of pit bulls because you are so worried about the overpopulation of Papillons and PBGV's is just a crock. If there is one thing I have learned about my neighbors who want to own a fighting breed capable of killing other dogs....they don't really give a damn about other people's dogs.

Face it...the more you aggressively promote these dogs, the more people who are COMPLETELY unable to manage them will adopt or buy them...like Rafael's relative. And when these dogs attack a person or pet, there will be more breed bans.

Dave - well said.

I know this will sound bad, but the Vick case was possibly the best thing that could have happened for pit bulls in recent years.

Typically during a fighting ring bust, the adult and young pups are euthanized without any sort of examination. While I don't agree with this practice, I understand the funding isn't always available and it's a huge liability to place these dogs in people who are not experienced with working with former fighting dogs.

However, because of his celebrity status, the other side of the debate finally got its chance, and so did the dogs. Sports Illustrated had a fantastic article in their recent issue (with a beautiful pit bull on the front!) documenting the Vick dogs. The last time a pit bull was on the cover of Sports Illustrated, it was captioned with "Beware of this dog!" This was around the time the breed exploded into popularity and some credit this issue towards the boom.

In a sick way, I'm glad the Vick case happened. Other dog fights administered by local groups end up in a small newspaper article. This case was viewed by the world. I'm happy the judge allowed them to be individually examined and placed. The dogs have shown that despite the hardships and lifestyle they endured, they can still rebound into wonderful, loving pets. If this is the case, why is it so hard to believe that a dog spending its entire lifetime in a loving home isn't dangerous?

Thanks to the judge for giving them a chance, and all the groups working with them.

Janet, any time there is any mention of banning pit bulls, you should visit that town's meetings. I can confidently say there are always "pit bull lobbyists" there providing other solutions to the problem, such as the spay/neuter programs you mentioned. By the way, I would enjoy mandatory spay/neuter for all animals, including those registered, unless a person can provide proof their animal is breed-worthy.

Do you believe that we don't push for those laws? Do you think the shelters don't push for it and enjoy having to kill great pets (of all breeds) daily? A lot of people want mandatory spay/neuter or low-cost at the very least. Unfortunately, this costs money, and the shelters are constantly strapped for cash, and cities rarely prioritize it. Besides, it's much easier to appease the public by banning a breed than it is to pay for low-cost s/n.

I don't promote the dogs. I promote solutions that work and not ones that will ban and/or kill my own family pet. I don't think there's another community of people as dedicated to helping dogs as pit bull owners. We fight for solutions that will protect everyone from all breeds, while others fight to kill our dogs and ignore the others (until they become a problem).

I wish fewer people would breed them and fewer people would adopt them. Too many people get them because they're a fad without knowing that they're high energy dogs and not a lawn ornament. Too many people try to sell them and it makes me sick every time I see an ad or someone advertising. There's only so much people can do, and pit bull owners put more effort towards getting better dog regulations in place than anyone else sitting behind a tv or monitor yelling to have them killed.

Sorry to post again, but here's the article in Sports Illustrated on the Vick dogs:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1150095/index.htm

My dog, Audrey followed me home in 2000 in my old town when I was out for a walk with a friend. We lived in a town that bordered several not-so-nice places, so Audrey may have come from there. It was raining, and Audrey was hiding behind a bush. My friend is a BIG animal lover, but I HATED dogs at the time. I mean LOATHED them. I always had cats growing up, and I was afraid of dogs. When I found out that Audrey was a pit bull, I FREAKED out. But while Diane was petting her, I noticed how nice the dog was. Anyway, Audrey followed me home, and the rest is history, and we've had her ever since. That same friend now has a pit bull mix (and an 18-month-old son). Another friend later adopted a pit bull because Audrey is so sweet.

This isn't to say Audrey is perfect. She HATES other dogs. She is crazy when people visit the house, jumping up on them, not viciously but overly enthusiastically, and some people don't like that, for obvious reasons. She was destructive when we first got her because she had separation anxiety when we would leave the house. That problem went away not that long after she came to live with us.

She has always been wonderful with my two kids, age 5 1/2 and 3 1/2. They can do anything to her, and she would never hurt them. I trust her implicitly with them.

Some background: Pit bulls used to be the No. 1 dog to own in the U.S. in the first half of the 20th century. They were called "Yankee" dogs because they were considered the all-American dog. Teddy Roosevelt had one. So did Helen Keller. Petey from "Our Gang" ("The Little Rascals") was a pit bull. So was the RCA Victor dog.

But starting in the '60s, nefarious types of people realized that pit bulls had two qualities that make them very attractive: they are extremely loyal and they are extremely strong. Not a good combination when you want to train a dog to do bad things. They became the dog of choice for gang-bangers and drug dealers (it used to be Dobermans and German Shepherds, also nice dogs; there's always a dog of choice for low lives).

Anyway, bad breeding compounded the problem. There have been some pit bull attacks that the media have gone crazy with. Some of the news reports identify a dog as a pit bull when that is not always the case; a lot of dogs get called pit bulls that aren't (such as various kinds of mastiffs). Actually, "pit bull" itself is a misnomer that covers two breeds: the American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier.

The truth is that pit bulls are not even close to the top of the list of dogs that bite. But when they do, obviously, it can be a lot worse than getting bitten by a poodle because they are stronger dogs with bigger teeth. I liken it, however, to flying. The crashes that occur are obviously big news, but 99.9999% of flights occur without any problem, and we never hear about those.

Pit bulls were NOT initially bred to be aggressive toward people. Quite the contrary. In England, they were known as "nanny dogs," because they were so good with children.

Bad breeding and abuse have taken their toll. The sad fact is that pit bulls are actually victims more often than they are victimizers. Shelters are clogged with them because nice people tend to not want to adopt them because of their reputation.

I think the Michael Vick situation has called attention to their plight. A lot of those dogs have been adopted out and are doing well, a real testament to how great these dogs can be. Even after what they've been through, they still want to love and trust people!

There are celebrities who have pit bulls, too, which I think helps their cause. They include Rachael Ray, Jon Stewart, Michael J. Fox, Jessica Biel and Rosie Perez.

When Audrey dies, we will get a shelter dog, and it will be another pit bull. I would NEVER get a dog from a breeder, given that there are so many dogs at shelters that need homes. That is just plain irresponsible, in my book.

I can't tell you what to do about this dog. You may not know how it was treated, and it sounds like you don't have the time to take care of it. If you are thinking about keeping the dog, please get a temperament test, which will indicate whether the dog is adoptable and not aggressive. If you decide to keep the dog, obedience training is a must.

If you decide not to keep it, it would be great if you could find a good home for it, or at least give it to a no-kill shelter.

Sorry about this book I have written. I am very passionate about this issue!

I keep seeing people mention how pitbull owners promote pitbulls. I completely disagree with that.

Pitbull are highly energetic and active dogs, I would never encourage an inactive person to get a pitbull nor somebody who does not have the time to commit to training and loving their dog.

Pitbulls are extemely people oriented and often need or at least enjoy company. I would not encourage someone who does not have the time for their dog to get a pitbull.

I know several pitbull rescues that frequently turn down adopters because they are not a good match for the dog or vice versa.

Rescues do home checks and reference checks including vets, they temperment test their dogs and interview potential adopters.

It seems certain people are trying to paint the picture that there are a bunch of crazy pitbull lovers running around handing out dogs and telling everyone they are the best dogs in the world, that they can go anywhere and do anything.

It's silly really, and completely untrue.

Neither Best Friends nor any other dog sanctuary could begin to take in all the unwanted pit bulls from even Los Angeles. Karen Delise estimates 120 pit bulls enter Los Angeles shelters PER DAY, and the vast majority are killed.

This is not the fault of Best Friends. THEY aren't breeding all those unwanted pit bulls. It is the fault of the irresponsible pit bull community and of the "responsible" pit bull community that vigorously opposes reasonable efforts to police irresponsible pit bull breeders in the form of breed specific pit bull breeder regulations.

Pit bull people always say that they are for "spay/neuter for ALL animals," because they know that such laws can never pass.

Your Aunt Matilda, who breeds her pug every couple of years is NOT the problem. Aunt Matilda's pugs are not glutting shelters nor making headlines.

So, pit bull people, please answer specifically:

Are you for BREED SPECIFIC laws that require the spay/neuter of all pit bulls except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs?

Cygnet1, why not include all breeds? I haven't seen where a city proposed breed-specific breeding regulations and it was fought by the pit bull community, but would be very interested in reading about it if you can provide the source. There isn't a breed that's as grossly over-bred as pit bulls, however there are too many of other breeds. Last I checked, shelters had other breeds than just pit bulls.

The reason it may have been fought by the community is because the breed does not need to be alienated. This just further instills in the public's mind that they are practically a species of their own, when they aren't.

Why would you not support breeding regulations for all breeds?

Again, it will be a financial burden on cities to regulate one specific breed. It just forces them into having to prove a pit bull is in fact one of the regulated breeds. Even DNA testing is rarely conclusive, as it frequently identifies dogs as a mixture of many different breeds. Every person I've seen who had a DNA test done on their pit bull (which was quite obviously a pit bull) received results that would have you seriously question the accuracy.

Regulate breeding for all breeds, which needs to be done to combat puppy mills, will negate this possibility since it won't matter what type of dog it is.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't be very useful even if it did pass. It doesn't take much to breed dogs, and there will always be irresponsible people that disobey the laws.

I'd like to see it on the law books, but honestly -- how well is the leash law being enforced?

Actually, many of the Vick pit bulls are pretty messed up. Many are not yet (after more than a YEAR of very intensive "rehabilitation")ready for permanent homes. Some are never going to be able to live as companion animals in normal homes.

Best Friends is a nice place, but (as we have heard) they wouldn't have even considered taking in these dogs if their last name hadn't been Vick. Had the Vick pit bulls not been front page news, they would be long since dead.

Example:

Vague pit bull definition could clog Ont. courts
August 31, 2005
TORONTO -- Ontario's justice system could be overrun by frantic dog owners trying
to prove their beloved pets aren't pit bull types, a nebulous category that is
impossible to define, experts say.
Legislation that took effect Monday made it illegal to own a new pit bull-type dog in
Ontario, although existing dogs can live out their days as long as certain conditions
are followed.
Owners who violate the law can be fined up to $10,000 and/or be sentenced to six
months in jail -- the first time imprisonment has been included in the province's
dangerous dog legislation.
A constitutional challenge announced the same day will likely be the first of many
legal battles against the only provincewide law of its kind in Canada, said Michael
O'Sullivan, executive director of the Humane Society of Canada.
"The only people who are going to profit from the passage of this law are lawyers,"
said O'Sullivan.
The legislation came into being after several bloody attacks on children, adults and
other animals last year by dogs identified as pit bulls.
In announcing the constitutional challenge, lawyer Clayton Ruby slammed the
legislation as a misguided "quick fix" that would do nothing to improve public safety
or reduce dog bites in the province.
Critics claim the law's definition is so broad that many dogs who have no "pit" in
them will be swallowed up and either euthanized or forced to leave the province
unless their owners can prove in court they're not pit bulls.
"We've definitely seen (appeals mounted) in places that have had bans before," said
Steve Barker, Ontario director of the Dog Legislation Council of Canada.
For example, appeals are up sharply in Windsor, Ont., where a ban on pit bulls that
took effect in October has been strictly enforced.
"What we're finding in Windsor is that there's a serious backlog of cases already,"
said Barker, adding there's already a delay of several months.
By contrast, authorities in Kitchener, Ont., have not "gone crazy" enforcing that
city's ban.
About 250 dogs there have been targeted over six years, but 30 per cent of those
turned out not be pit bulls on appeal.
Sandra Mitchell, of Kitchener, has set up a website to help dog owners navigate the
tricky specifics of proving a dog isn't a pit bull.
"I think if one owner has to deal with wrongful identification, then that's one too many," Mitchell said.
Earlier this year, Mitchell left her job for a month and hired two Ottawa lawyers to
prove her year-old dog Lily wasn't a pit bull.
She said a bylaw officer responding to reports of a new pit bull in the neighbourhood
gave her five days to get Lily out of the city or launch an appeal and prove the dog
wasn't a pit bull.
If she didn't comply, Lily would be taken away and put down, the officer warned.
Mitchell said it's difficult to prove a dog isn't a pit bull.
Under the new legislation, a pit bull is defined as a Staffordshire bull terrier, an
American Staffordshire terrier, an American pit bull terrier or any dog that has an
appearance and physical characteristics that are "substantially similar" to those
dogs.
That definition is broad enough to include a wide range of dogs, the vast majority of
which have never bitten anyone, experts said.
"There is no such thing as a pit bull," said O'Sullivan.
"They don't exist as a species."
Lily is half boxer and half Labrador retriever, Mitchell said, but even a vet's
agreement wasn't necessarily enough to keep her safe because -- like almost all pet
dogs -- she doesn't have official papers.
So Mitchell went on the offensive in the month leading to her appeal hearing, doing
extensive research, calling in animal-rights lawyers Terrance Green and Anne Vespry
of Ottawa.
"We took about 300 pictures of our poor dog," she said.
"That dog went through being poked and prodded and taken to vets for almost the
entire time."
Vespry said the process involved an incredible amount of leg work.
Much of the time was taken up with the minute details that separate one dog from
another.
The first task was to figure out what exactly defines the breed standards of the
various dogs defined as pit bulls.
"Then you have to do the reconciliation of `this is what my dog looks like'," said
Vespry.
"This is the height, the length ratio, the weight-to-thighs ratio, the shape of the ears,
the shape and positioning of the eyes, the length of the nose compared to the length
of the rest of the head, the angle of the tail. It's a fairly detailed process."
Brendan Crawley, spokesman for Ontario's Ministry of the Attorney General, said the
legislation will require the province to provide a note from a vet that a dog is a pit
bull.
It will then be up to the owner to convince the courts that it isn't.
But Crawley said the government doesn't believe the situation will crop up often.
Barker said pet owners should consider appealing if their dog is branded a pit bull.

"The best approach in a law like this, where it is vague, it to appeal," he said. "That's
what you should do, as a dog owner, to keep your dog."
© Canadian Press 2005

Yes, some of the Vick dogs will not be placed. The exact numbers?

47 of the 51 dogs were saved

- 2 died in the shelters
- 1 was euthanized due to aggression
- 1 was euthanized for medical reasons
- 22 went to Best Friends, who plan to adopt 17 of them
- 14 have been adopted into homes
- 11 are in foster care

So, 5 out of the 47 are not expected to be sent to a home. I guess that is a horrible number considering where they came from.

They can't all be placed. Here's Hector, and at about 4:30 you can see his reaction to another dog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS8irL38JVc

Josher,

Please tell us exactly what your proposed breeder regulation affecting "all breeds" would say, Josher.

It is impossible to write such a law since different breeds have different issues. If, for example, you pass a law saying only show dogs of all breeds can remain intact and be bred, you couldn't BEGIN to fill the need for small breed puppies. (Out of state puppy millers would love to fill in that gap...). Plus, you'd knock out nearly all the best working border collies from the gene pool. (The price of lamb would go WAY up...)

Plus there is no NEED to spend public money to regulate Aunt Matilda and her pug breeding. You want to spend taxpayer money to protect pit bull people from hurt feelings because they feel all "alienated?" Too bad. Stop worrying about hurt feelings and do what you need to do to protect the dogs.

I think that saying that after more than a year of intensive rehabilitation fewer than half the Vick dogs are in permanent homes is less than stunning. And more than ten percent of them will NEVER be able to be safely placed. (Nobody has said exactly why that is, that I have read...I am betting it is because of completely off the wall levels of dog aggression).

So you think public money will be better spent in court deciding whether a dog is a pit bull or not? Sounds like a great way to cut down on the ever-increasing court dockets! That way, all the truly dangerous criminals get to wait longer before their day in court.

Maybe I'm not saying it clear enough. Let me illustrate it for you:

All breeding regulated:
Authority: Please let me see your license to breed.
Defendant: I don't have one.
Authority: Here's your fine.

Breed-specific:
Authority: Please let me see your license to breed pit bulls.
Defendant: It isn't a pit bull.
Authority: It looks like one to me.
Defendant: We'll take this to court.
*after sitting on the docket, the city pays money on the case, the defendant pays money on a lawyer, and much time is wasted*
Judge: This isn't a pit bull.
Defendant: Thanks, I'll go home now.

Or, maybe you just know some way of positively identifying a pit bull that I don't? If so, please tell me.

Different breeds have different issues? No. If you do not have a titled dog, or have it health tested (OFA certifications, etc), it does not need to be bred. The cost of breeding would weed out "Aunt Matilda" who has a couple pugs she got from a pet store (which came from a puppy mill) and have numerous genetic faults and health problems. It would weed out Billy Bob and Thugmaster Flex from making money from their pit bulls.

Now, please justify your claims instead of asking me about my own?

Gee, Jorsher, you post to a 2005 article speculating that maybe Ontario's courts could be "overrun" by people "desperate" to prove dogs aren't pit bulls. Did it HAPPEN in the three and a half years since that this article was published?

Nah. Actually, despite the fact that Ontario's law is a BAN (and a poorly designed one at that), and despite the fact that pit bull people continue to hold yard sales to raise money for increasingly futile appeals, Ontario courts were never "overrun."

But the law I propose would be SILLY for any pit bull owner to challenge. Because if it wasn't EASY to prove the pit bull was an AKC or UKC-PR registered show dog, the easiest thing to do would be to microchip it and spay/neuter it. No need for Lily's owner (in your article) to take two months off from work to fight the "pit bull" designation. Just do what ANY responsible mixed breed owner would have already DONE.

Cool huh? So are you in favor of a breed specific law that requires all pit bulls (and pit bull mixes)to be microchipped and all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC=PR registered show dogs to be spayed/neutered?

Maybe our idea of "intensive rehabilitation" is different, but they basically gave them space and helped build their confidence. What does your idea of a rehabilitation program consist of? The dogs were scared of cages, doors, people, and dogs. They don't put them on a treadmill and hire a motivator and therapist to help the dogs sort out their problems, they have to give the dogs space and slowly work them into "normal life." You thrust a dog into a situation that puts it under stress, and the months of work would be lost.

But I guess a year is a long time. I mean, humans, who are vastly more intelligent and can communicate, recover from traumatic events in a matter of days, right?

Ten percent is a bad number? Considering where they came from, how is that a bad number? And yes, it most likely is because of dog aggression. If you were raised in constant abuse and pain, you would trust others easily?

It's interesting you believe the entire thing was a failure because "only" 90% of them are adoptable. You realize the rate of violent humans getting involved in another violent act is considerably higher than 90%, right? The sad thing is we're the intelligent species...

Jorsher,

Again--please tell us EXACTLY what the "breed general" law you propose would say. Don't just say that breeders have to have a "license to breed dogs," tell us EXACTLY what they would have to do to get such a license.

What titles? What "health screens?" (Please be precise, none of this "OFA certifications, etc." stuff). Who decides?

Maybe you missed this part:

"For example, appeals are up sharply in Windsor, Ont., where a ban on pit bulls that
took effect in October has been strictly enforced.
"What we're finding in Windsor is that there's a serious backlog of cases already,"
said Barker, adding there's already a delay of several months."

Can you back up your claim that Ontario wasn't back-logged, or is this going to be another ignored request for proof of what's said?

You still haven't provided a good reason why breeding shouldn't be regulated for all breeds.

I've never said I'm in favor of a breed specific law of any sort. What smelly hole did you pull that from?

Also, I never said AKC and UKC registered dogs should be allowed to breed. I said titled and/or health tested. I would not consider many of the AKC/UKC dogs to be breed-worthy. Just because they are registered does not mean they're worth breeding. Most registered dogs aren't.

Why does Aunt Matilda need to breed her pet-quality pugs? Is there a shortage of pugs or would I find some in shelters?

You sure avoid a lot of questions to be someone with all the answers...

Re the Vick dogs, I never said that "the entire thing was a failure." It has generated a lot of good publicity for a few people and organizations. Some dogs who would be dead are alive. These are good things.

Lots and lots of resources have been spent to achieve those goals and it is reasonable to wonder if that was the best use of those resources, especially in the case of the dogs who NEVER will be able to live as companion animals when dogs (including many, many many pit bulls) with rock solid temperaments who could have gone pretty much straight to adoptive homes die every day because of a lack of resources.

Josher, its funny that you claim that pit bull advocacy groups support mandatory s/n laws for ALL dogs....could you please link me to ONE pro-pit website/group that has advocated for mandatory s/n? Has BadRap or Realpitbull, or Adoptabull, or anyone tried to introduce legislation to this effect? The answer is no.

Not ONE pro-pit website on the internet has any links to the Stop-puppy- mills websites, or advocates that dog owners lobby for laws that regulate breeders. I have never seen any pit bull rescue organization put one dime or ounce of energy into lobbying for laws that would force ALL dog owners to s/n their dogs. You and I know its all BS....you talk the talk, but you won't walk the walk. You all SUGGEST that owners s/n their dogs, thats it. You don't PROMOTE mandatory anything.

Please prove me wrong and link me to a pro-pit website which states, as part of their mission statement, they they will fight to introduce laws for manadtory s/n of ALL dogs.

What you WILL see on pit bull advocates websites are links to dog-fighters and breeders. Both BadRap and the "responsible pit bull owners" website that Rafael showed us link to the Colby website, a back yard breeder and former dogfighter. The popular "pit bull chat" forum, which has numerous pictures and discussions regarding pit bull rescue, welcomes dog fighters with open arms...and goes so far as to dedicate a section of their forum to "tributes" to famous dogfighters. It makes any real dog lover sick to their stomach.

Thats your world, not mine. At least be honest about it.

Jorsher,

Again: Tell us exactly what the "breed general" law you propose would SAY. How can I tell you what is wrong with it, if you won't tell me what you propose.

I know that you are not in favor of the kind of breed specific law that is necessary to protect pit bulls and to protect the public from pit bulls. Few, if any pit bull people are. They tend to value the "rights" of irresponsible pit bull breeders to profit off pit bulls more than they value protecting pit bulls and children.

If you can find ANY healthy, purebred pug puppy in a shelter, I would be very surprised. You certainly wouldn't find one DYING in a shelter. (Unwanted pit bull puppies die in droves in shelters, of course).

So, yes, there is a shortage of pugs. Healthy pug puppies do NOT die in shelters in this country.

I found an adult pug and contacted pug rescue. They were very willing to take him, despite the fact that he had several health problems. (No need, as I also had highly qualified adopters lined up). Do you know of pit bull rescues who are eager to take adult pit bulls with health problems?

ROFL.

I'm sorry, I have to say. Colby website - a backyard breeder?

Holy cow.

The Colby bloodline is one of the longest running in the country. A Colby-bred dog was what the AKC AmStaff and UKC APBT standards were based off of. The Colby family rarely breeds their dogs, and when they do they only go to those that have proven they are going to do good things with the dog and have been titled with previous dogs. Yes, they were involved with dog-fighting in the past, but have not in decades.

If you'd like, I can educate you on how to get in touch with the Colby family to discuss this.

Since you were the one to make the initial claims that pit bull advocates don't agree with all-breed mandatory spay/neuter, please provide your source. I've asked this before (a few times), and somehow know that you will NOT respond with any source.

I never said any pit bull rescue organization spends their money to lobby for mandatory spay/neuter. If I did, please quote it. Again, I know you'll not accomplish this.

You ask for me to link you to a mission statement saying they will fight for mandatory spay/neuter of ALL dogs, please show a single breed-specific site that does this. Are labrador owners also evil? Good luck finding a site saying "our mission statement is to fight for laws regulating breeding of ALL breeds!"

If you believe there won't be websites that do allow dog-fighters, I feel extremely sad for you! There is a website for every type of person, welcome to the internet!

I can link you to many, many pit bull sites that specifically say dog-fighters are not welcome.

Now, you were just about to back up your initial statements, right? Or, were you just going to ask more questions instead of answering the ones you were originally asked.

Good job on trying to divert the subject.

The subject of the current discussion is breed-specific breeding regulations. The subject is not "what regulations would you propose to determine whether someone should be given a breeding license."

Just to appease you, since you obviously have run out of reasons to support breed-specific legislation, here you go:

- Purebred dog
- Verifiable 3 generation pedigree
- At least 10% of the 3 generations titled (I'm sure you'll want specifics: any nationally recognized title in conformation, tracking, agility, obedience, weight pull, schutzund, flyball, etc)
- Temperament tested
- CERF and OFA certified
- Fits the breed standard
- Free of genetic defects

To be proved by the owner registering to breed.

Now, I'll ask again for you to give a reason why all breeding shouldn't be regulated? I'm glad that you were easily able to rehome a pug, but I was able to find over 1000 pugs for adoption on a single site before I got tired of clicking next to prove what I thought was obvious.

By the way, the site is www.petfinder.com

Ok, I found a direct list of all the dogs available for adoption:

http://www.petfinder.com/breeds/Dog

Pug - 1,446
AmStaff - 3,482
Pit Bull Terrier - 10,892

You're right, only 1400 pugs? Tell Aunt Matilda to pump out some more!!!

Beagle - 7,332
Black Lab - 4,825
Border Collie - 4,676
Boxer - 6,030
Chihuahua - 7,119
German Shepherd - 7,175
Labrador Retriever - 19,601

You're right, no other breed needs to be regulated.

Here is a link to a gamedog.com thread..this is a website for dogfighters, and they have a lot to say about Colby dogs;

http://www.game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19846&highlight=colby

Keep telling yourself that the people who want a dog from Lou Colby seek him out because they just want a pet. And ask if he OFA's his dogs. He doesn't.

Now you are backtracking...I never said that pro-pit advocates don't CLAIM to support mandatory s/n of all dogs; they just don't do anything about it. Even though it is estimated that only one in 600 pit bull puppies born survives to adulthood, it is the most abused, overbred breed of dog in the country, and there is no way possible to place the vast number of these unwanted dogs in good homes....you make excuses as to why you don't support mandatory s/n by whining that "the lab breeders don't support it", and claiming you are just concerned about pugs. I know someone who does pug rescue, they don't last a day in our local shelters, trust me.

Your standards are a joke. Anyone can make up and print out a "pedigree" on their computer. You advocate the breeding of untitled dogs. You advocate the breeding of unregistered dogs...to help keep the dogfighters in business. Which temperament test will you require? Certainly not the ATTS, I hope. They can fail a dog because it won't walk across a plastic grate. And who decides that a dog fits the breed standards if it isn't titled?

And what about websites that claim to be online communities for owners and advocates, like pitbull chat....but who also welcome dogfighters?

Oh, and as for Petfinder...try clicking on the boxers. Unless the rescue listed is Boxer rescue, the MAJORITY of the dogs look just like pits and pit mixes. Its a common practice in my area to re-label pits and pit mixes as "boxer mixes", to help get them adopted.

As far as the labs go? I clicked on them, purebred labs are RARE.Labs are the most popular dog in the US, any mutt that is mostly black or dark brown is called a lab mix at MOST shelters, to increase its chances of adoption. Honestly, some of the dogs pictured don't look even remotely like labs, (one looks like a purbred greyhound) but its labeled as a lab-mix. There are a few pit mixes labled as labs, also.

Congratulations on finding a site about dog-fighting. You must have scoured google.com for 5 seconds. I can find a website for any subject in the world. What exactly is your point?

If they are using a dog for dog-fighting purposes, they WILL NOT get one from the Colby family. People can still get Colby dogs and use them for fighting. If you can't figure it out, other people breed the bloodline as well. Where did you read the dogs are not health-tested?

Here, you can make all your claims directly to him, as he's an active member of the pit bull community I'm a part of:
http://www.pitbullforum.com/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=18743

He will swiftly correct all your slander.

I haven't whined, you've just run out of excuses and are resorting to personal insults :) Keep grasping at straws. Also, while you're at any responsible pit bull forum, ask if they would prefer mandatory s/n of all dogs. You will quickly be proved incorrect.

I make excuses as to why I don't support mandatory spay neuter? Where? I specifically stated that I DO support mandatory spay/neuter of all animals.

You know someone in pug rescue? I trust you! I know someone in pug rescue too, they never get adopted in our local shelters, trust me.

My standards are a joke? Again, if you read (I know it can be difficult for some people) above, I stated that papers don't mean much. I also stated the papers must be verifiable, but I guess you missed that. Please tell me how an unregistered dog has a pedigree and gets titled? Dogs have to be registered to get titled. Maybe its too complex for you to have figured that out?

Who decides that a dog fits the breed standards if it isn't titled? AKC and UKC both have judges.

What (what) about the websites that claim to be online communities for owners and advocates and welcome dog-fighters? You are really dense if you think there won't be a single dog-fighting site on the internet. What about the sites that don't welcome dog-fighters?

I really don't understand why you keep bringing up dog-fighting sites. They will exist, always. There are sites for drugs, racism, and any other subject you can think of. What's your point?

For the third time (at least):
Since you were the one to make the initial claims that pit bull advocates don't agree with all-breed mandatory spay/neuter, please provide your source. Do I need to rephrase it in simpler terms?

A few posts ago, you stated that pit bull advocates to not agree with all-breed mandatory spay/neuter. Please show me some evidence that all pit bull advocates (or even a majority) do not support mandatory spay/neuter.

False information you've posted so far:

"Since the majority of pit bull BREEDERS are criminals, dog fighters, drug dealers, gang members, and run-of-the-mill losers"
Maybe true, but this is a statistic grabbed from the depths of your rectum and not fact.

"One of the genetic traits the dog fighters graced pit bulls with, by breeding for it, was unpredictability"
Breed unpredictability? This is based on your years of experience, or what you've read on the internet? It must be an extremely rare trait, because over 99% of pit bulls never cause an issue, despite "most" being bred by criminals "for aggressive traits." Odd.

"are you aware that pit bulls are a "banned breed" for many insurance companies?"
Fortunately there are many that do:
- Farmers Insurance Group
- United Services Automobile Association
- Fireman's Fund
- Kemper
- Chubb Group
- Travelers
Among others...

"The dog in the picture looks like a game bred dog, a red nose pit, from fighting lines."
Wow, amazing that you have the ability to deduce all that from a picture. A red nose does not mean it's "game bred" or "from fighting lines." It simply means their nose is red. What kind of lines to black or blue nose pit bulls come from, expert? During your obviously brief study of pit bull history, did you miss that pit bulls of every other nose color have also been game-bred?

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b35/mpetva/PitbullForum/larrypowell1.jpg
There's one of your vicious fighting bloodline red nose pit bulls, right? It has a scared stature, or is that just the dog ready to attack?
That was just posted today, by the way: http://www.readlarrypowell.com/
I donated to help the poor dog, what have you done lately?

"Ah, typical pit bull owner. You are all self-professed dog "experts", but you don't seem to know anything about the breed."
Ever heard the phrase "pot calling the kettle black?" You're the one saying a red nose means it's a fighting dog. It's sad that the person telling others this sort of misinformation doesn't realize that every nose color could be part of a gamebred line. Just because AKC says black is the standard, doesn't mean it's the be-all end-all, and definitely does not mean that his dog is a game-bred dog. UKC says any color is acceptable:
http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/AmericanPitBullTerrier
Who gives AKC authority?

"You have no idea if your rescue has been fought...he may have just been the loser, or he may have been attacked by other pits in his breeders "yard". You have no idea how much of his temperament problems are due to lack of socialization, abuse, or bad breeding/genetics."
You don't know either. I think he has a better idea of the dogs temperament than you with your red nose theory.

"You should be DEMANDING mandatory spay and neuter of all non-registered dogs..."
So you're saying registered dogs are OK to breed? But...but...you just said:
"Your standards are a joke. Anyone can make up and print out a "pedigree" on their computer."
You realize it's even easier to print out a registration, right? You realize any dog can be registered somewhere, even a mutt?

"the pro-pit lobbyists would rather see more pit bulls born into dog fighting, to suffer and die a horrible death, than agree to do ANYTHING about the rampant overpopulation by bad breeders...these dogs are deliberately bred by the worst members of society because there is money in it. Politely asking them to neuter their dogs won't work."
So many issues with this. Find me a "pro-pit lobbyist" that enjoys seeing pit bulls in shelters. You're right, politely asking them to spay/neuter won't work. You honestly believe that these "drug dealers and criminals" are going to start following their law and run to pay money and have their dog fixed? (by the way, nobody has EVER answered the previous question, and you won't either) Or do you propose that the city pay for people to search every home to seek out those that aren't spayed/neutered?

Mandatory spay/neuter would be nice in a perfect world, but the fact is it just won't work. How well are those leash laws being enforced? They are as simple as seeing a dog off-leash and citing the owner, assuming the owner can be found. How do you suppose they will seek out all unaltered dogs?

Based on your previous comments, I'm sure you have a brilliant plan.

Petfinder is a ridiculous way to estimate the number of any breed dying in shelters. Most of the dogs on Petfinder aren't in kill shelters, they are in rescues. The vast majority of "pugs" on Petfinder aren't purebred pugs, they are mixes. Pit bulls usually don't make it to rescues, because pit bull rescues are usually full. And Petfinder only lists adoptable dogs. According to Missouri Pit Bull Rescue 75% of shelters don't even TRY to adopt out pit bulls. They kill them all WAY before they would ever make it onto Petfinder.

Please link us to some PUREBRED pug PUPPIES you find on petfinder. If you find any, it won't be at kill shelters. I doubt you will find a PUREBRED pug adult in danger of dying at any kill shelter. They virtually ALL go to rescue (only exception would be ones with serious health or temperament problems and even some of THOSE go to rescue).

Hilarious that you claim that Colby isn't a backyard breeder but Colby doesn't OFA or title his breeding stock, does he? So Colby couldn't get a breeder's license under your proposal. Bye-bye, Colby line.

What do you think attracts people to owning a "Colby" pit bull? The dogs/bloodlines being bred are famous for only one thing, right? (Hint: It isn't Freestyle obedience).

Janet already asked you how breeders would demonstrate that dogs they propose to breed meet the breed standard without titles. (Perhaps you envision a huge govenmental entity to make those decisions? Cool. Lots of good government jobs for dog people). And how do you demonstrate proper "temperament?" Is proper shetland sheepdog temperament the same as proper rottweiler temperament? (One size fits all!). Who decides?

Your proposal would require a huge expensive bureaucracy, and is completely unworkable. And, besides, NOBODY WANTS IT. It is designed to solve a problem that isn't a problem (purebred pugs dying in shelters). Even if purebred pugs WERE dying in shelters in significant numbers, people wouldn't want it.

The reason that people scream to regulate pit bulls isn't that so many pit bulls die in shelters. The only people who seem to care much about that are Janet, Jane and me. Most other people either hate pit bulls (most people) or claim to "love" them but want to fight any effort to protect them from the horrific suffering and death so many of them experience (pit bull people such as yourself).

The reason that people want to regulate pit bull breeding isn't that the pit bulls are suffering and dying in appalling numbers (although they are) it is that they also kill children fairly regularly. Pugs don't.

What she said......(she being cygnet)

Basically, Josher, your plan to regulate dog breeding would wipe out all the working livestock guardians (in case you were not aware, real farmers work very, very hard, and don't have a lot of "free time" to attaned dog shows) You would also wipe out rare hunting breeds like feists.(And we all know what a major problem feist overpopulation is)

But you left a nice, big loophole to help the dog fighters continue doing what they do. Isn't that conventient! They can hold their little fake dog shows through their fake registries...AADR, ADBA....get together in a muddy feild some where, prance their dogs around,(occasionally facing them off to show their gameness) and get a ribbon in"conformation". Guess who the judges are? Convicted dog fighters like Richard Stratton!

Then we can ask taxpayers to pay for a huge government office to make sure all the breeders OFAd their breeding stock.

It takes an AC person about 10 seconds to scan for a chip, spay scar, or notice a dog is neutered...its cheap. What Cignet proposed would not so much as inconvenience one repsonsible pit bull owner; if anything, insisting pit bulls be microchipped would help protect them from being stolen for dog fighting. There is no logical reason for not wanting to regulate pit bull breeding, because even if you don't care about the children and pets that pit bulls maul and kill on a regular basis, regulatng them would also PROTECT them from the people who abuse them.

And again, the simple question that has yet to be answered by any of you:

How do you propose they will choose what is and isn't a pit bull? It's not as simple as "just looking at it."

"You won't find a purebred pug." BS. So, it's ok that there are 1400 pug mixes, as long as they aren't purebred?

The double-standards are amazing. You care sooooo much for the poor pit bulls, yet it's ok that there's another 100,000 dogs that need homes because "they aren't purebred."

I have no problem with microchipping, spaying, neutering, any of that. My dog is spayed and microchipped.

I have YET to hear a good reason why ONLY pit bulls should be regulated. The issue with overbreeding pit bulls is quite obviously the most severe, but there are still thousands of other breeds that are also overbred. I hear you say "you care about pit bulls safety," but not all the other breeds that are dying? I know plenty of people in shelters and they regularly put down dogs of all breeds... And it's not just in shelters local to me.

The other very simple question that has been asked and not answered: If they cannot enforce the even simpler leash law (which only requires looking at a dog from a distance), what makes you think this law will be enforced?

Another simple question that has not been answered: Do you expect criminals/breeders to magically decide to spay/neuter because it's now law?

The law would be useless. It may only takes 10 seconds to have AC look at them, but you may have missed the frequent complaints about calling AC and not getting anything done. It's great it only takes 10 seconds to scan them, except that it takes multiple calls to get somewhere out there.

Really, quit trying to turn it around and say I don't care about the poor pit bulls and children because I think mandatory spay/neuter would be a failure. Very, very poor "argument." I volunteer time weekly at a local shelter and donate money frequently to other shelters. Don't attempt to tell me "I don't care." I'm just realistic and understand if a completely simple law of keeping dogs on leashes cannot be enforced, a law requiring an brief examination will NOT be. Until you answer the very simple questions above, I'm not going to agree with your "mandatory spay/neuter of pit bulls" idea.

"The vast majority of "pugs" on Petfinder aren't purebred pugs, they are mixes."

And exactly how many of the pitbulls listed on petfinder do you think are purebred? I'm not sure what your point is here.

There is almost an equal number of labs listed on petfinder as there are pitbulls. All the numbers are staggering and there are all together too many homeless pets.

I support spay/neuter for all breeds because no animal deserves to sit in a shelter hoping to be one of the lucky ones that gets to find a home.

Purebred or not.

Silly Confused! The other breeds don't die in shelters. The poor pit bulls and disgusting mixes are the only dogs that die. All the purebreds are immediately adopted out.

See, shelters just pretend to have to put these animals down and pretend to be strapped for cash/space so you donate more.

hey nut jobs.

How quickly people forget that pit bulls were a very popular family breed in the 1800's and the better half of the 1900's. They were everywhere - in film, in advertising, on farms as working dogs, in homes as beloved pets. Pete the pup from the little rascals, was a pit bull. Stubby, the most decorated war dog, was a pit bull. The same exact breed that people are maligning now. The first "inherently vicious" dogs were collies and bloodhounds. Dogs that were considered "dangerous" and would "attack without warning" due to the media's portrayal of them and biased reports of dog attacks. Then it was the German Shepherd which was considered the "dangerous" breed. The Doberman was next, then the Rottweiler, and starting in the late 80's it was the American Pit Bull terrier and all the bully breeds. What people need to understand is that the owner is responsible for their dog. Watch any dog-training related show to see that unstable, untrained dogs of any breed can and will be aggressive if owned by someone clueless or apathetic about caring for them. It is unfortunate that pit bulls are the current "fad breed" with the wrong kind of owners. Owners that do not give their dogs the proper guidance, exercise, and stimulation that they need. Owners like this get a pit bull or an "aggressive breed" as a status symbol, keeping them as lawn ornaments. Dogs are family oriented, loyal animals and preventing them from socializing with their people leads to a frustrated, potentially aggressive dog. A pit bull, a rottweiler, or any breed people consider "vicious" are wonderful pets if owned by someone who understands the breed and the needs of their dog. Whereas a "nice" breed owned by someone who does not care to treat the dog properly, can and will show signs of aggression, frustration, and anxiety and be a danger to themselves and others. Mankind is supposed to be the "smarter" species.Why, then, do we choose to blame an animal we are responsible for instead of ourselves?
here watch this, the full thing and then wait and see how many pit haters out there will still say its the breed or its crap info. there were not too many breeders back then.
but again its almost a waist of time to try and fight it. its like trying to tell the 'clan' that blacks are equals and people to. They have there stupid opinions and are have their brains locked to it unless there is more media
NUT JOBS! and i clean that up :)
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=7810685&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.2.1

oh and are you people comparing a pug to a pit? why cause they have 3 letters lol. if a pit gets mad its a fight. if a pug gets mad, kick it. its over. same with a lab or rottie. its a fight.

Well, cygnet1 used pugs as an example to show that only pit bull breeding needs to be regulated.

He said I would be lucky to find a single pug in a shelter.

So I provided a link to a single site that has 1400+ pugs.

He said it didn't mean anything because they weren't purebred. Apparently, he has personally viewed each of the 1400+ pugs to determine that they aren't purebred.

His opinion is that only pit bull breeding needs to be regulated, no other breed has a problem with over-breeding, mixed breeds deserve to die, and that purebreds are never in shelters long and never euthanized.

I take his belief seriously because he has a single bit of anecdotal evidence.

You guys want to see who's going to the gas chamber?????
http://www.shelterrescue.org/id2.html
This group includes a gorgeous dachshund, an obvious chocolate lab, and some other mixes... but who the heck would want a mixed breed when they can show how cool they are with their inbred dog they paid an arm and a leg for??? I oppose BSL and support spay and neuter and rescue of pitties. Not because I myself have one, but because I don't want the day to come when someone knocks on my door trying to take away my children's Australian Cattle Dog mix because she resembles a pitbull... heck, there are people that think out Jack Russell Terrier/ hound mix is a pitbull!!!! This conversation is absurd... especially when you throw in the breeders.... there MIGHT be two responsible breeders in the country.... the rest are morons, and the reason I can't get to sleep at night knowing how many puppies are going to be put in a gas chamber the next day.

Sounds like you should keep the dog and get rid of the relatives.

Heather,

Do you have a point? Because, forgive me, but I am missing it if you have one. Nobody is saying that dogs other than pit bulls don't sometimes die in shelters. Except for pit bulls, however, few purebred PUPPIES need to die in shelters, though.

And since nobody is suggesting that anybody "take away" your dog, please clarify what you are saying. Why would you oppose a breeed specific law that requires the microchipping of all pit bulls (and pit bull mixes) and the spay/neuter of all pit bulls except for AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs.

Please tell us EXACTLY how such a law would hurt any responsible dog owner. Assuming somebody thinks your JRT mix is a pit bull, so what? Isn't she already spayed/microchipped?

By the way, the "chocolate labrador mix" in your link looks a lot like a pit bull mix to me.

To answer your question, Josher..if they can't enforce a simple leash law, how would they enforce mandatory s/n?

Wait a minute...you said that you would SUPPORT mandatory s/n, but ONLY if it were for ALL dogs...because of your deep concern for all the homeless pugs in this country. You even went so far as to tell us what your breeder laws would look like, conveniently giving the dogmen enough wiggle room to keep doing what they do.

Now you say that your law would be unenforcible. Which is it? You contradict yourself. You say mandatory s/n is "useless", but earlier you claimed that you support it for "all dogs". So its "useless" and "unenforcible" for pit bulls only, but its a good thing for all dogs?

To answer your question, here is how mandator s/n of pit bulls would work ....lets say that your dysfunctional neigbor's 20 year old son just got out of prison, and has moved back home. He decides he can make some quick cash by breeding "Monsta Blue Pits!" in his alcoholic mother's basement, and selling them to his drug dealer friends as guard dogs for their meth labs. You come home from work one day, and are greeted by two pit bulls, snarling and lunging on their chains at you from the neighbors backyard. Its obvious that one is an intact male.

You call animal control and report a violation. If they are short staffed or busy that day, its OK..two days later they come out and examine the dogs, scan for a microchip, and cite the owner with a violation. They give him 30 days to chip and fix. If he doesn't do it, they come back and take the dogs.

Congratulations! You have just prevented the birth of dozens of pit bull puppies who would have been sold to criminals, starved, abused, and fought by wannabe Michael Vicks. You have also prevented the death of 2 or 3 beloved family dogs, who would have been mauled to death when some drug dealer went to jail, and his pit bull was dumped on the street.

You have also helped your local shelter, where the huge number of abandoned pit bulls command the lion's share of resources. They now have more money, time, cage space, and food to help all of those homeless pugs you worry so much about.

Everybody wins!

Re the question of IDing pit bulls, if the only requirement of pit bull owners is that they microchip and spay/neuter, what's the problem?

If I have an intact dog who isn't a pit bulls I have plently of evidence to convince even the most skeptical animal control person what breed that dog IS. I have pedigrees, registration papers, dog show ribbons, OFA certificats, title certificates, show photos, awards from the parent club, etc. etc. etc.

And if I own a boxer/beagle who looks JUST like a pit bull, she is already spayed/microchipped if I am responsible, right? So why would I object to a law that requires me to do what I have already done as a responsible owner? Indeed, such a law gives me added protection because it makes it less likely somebody will steal my dog who looks just like a pit bull. (Because any thief will know all pit bulls are spayed/neutered and microchipped).

Plus, if I DO own a pit bull I will have the added
security having to worry a whole lot less that someday soon I will wake up to a headline that means that I will have a choice of either moving or killing my beloved dog.

Because when the picture of some adorable toddler killed by pit bulls is on the front page, it may be REALLY hard to convince lawmakers to care much about your "rights" as a pit bull owner.

Thanks for the good example of how the statute could work, Janet. Here is another example: Say you are a law enforcement officer, making a drug bust. You call animal control to take away the human aggressive pregnant female pit bull who is in the apartment, because the owner of the apartment is going away for a very long time. A day later, the drug dealer's girlfriend comes to pick up the dog at Animal control. She has proof of ownership, but the dog isn't microchipped and spayed (obviously, since she is pregnant). Under current law, AC would have to release the pregnant dog to the girlfriend Under our proposal, they could tell her that she has to pay for a spay first.

And NO responsible pit bull owner is even inconvenienced.

Or, take another example:

Say you have a neighbor who has 35 pit bulls who live on chains in his "yard." He has a website and links to "gamedogs.com" His website advertises puppies with pedigrees containing lingo such as "2xw." He makes references to all the famous dog fighting pit bulls in his dog's recent pedigree. He breeds and sells hundreds of puppies per year and doesn't ask any questions of his puppy buyers.

But, of course, his website says "no dogs bred or sold for any illegal purposes" (wink, wink, smirk, smirk).

You have called Animal control and told them that you suspect he is breeding dogs for dog fighting, but they (rightly) note that you have no information that would support a criminal conviction.

Of course, AC would LOVE to put this guy out of the business. They could do so easily if there was a law that made it illegal for him to breed his unregistered pit bulls. Wouldn't that be nice?

Or say you are an owner of a wonderful Ch/Mach/UD AmStaff with all her health screens. She is a great dog, totally dog social. Your dog is the kind of pit bull who SHOULD be bred if the breed is to survive.

But you are also haunted by the knowledge that your local shelter is a pit bull killing zone. You see the hundreds of pit bulls who go in and don't come out alive. This is ALL because there is no way to police irresponsible pit bull breeders.

And most of your best prospects as puppy placements are equally haunted (they are ethical, too). For selfish reasons, they would love to have a puppy from your dog, but they just can't make themselves do it when SO many pit bulls are dying. So you spay your dog and the best prospective pit bull owners go to the shelter and rescue a dog who might be okay, or might grow up to be unsound or unhealthy or perhaps dangerously genetically dog aggressive. They get turned off to pit bull ownership and next time pick a breed with fewer problems.

And pit bulls keep circling the drain.

It is a sad day that an educated reporter would condemn a breed that already has such a mountain to climb. Did you know that pit bulls were originally used as Nanny Dogs in England/US?

I am a dog trainer and walker and one of my clients just had an adorable baby girl. Their pit bull, Gizmo, has been a dream - she doesn't try to go near the baby but instead likes to sleep outside her room in protection. The owners have made the effort to ascertain that the dog knows it's boundaires, as does the child. This is why things are working out so well.

There are millions and millions of pit bulls being condemned to death or a horrible life in a shelter and your article, so very uneducated, encourages that.

I have to wonder what type of father you will be - always encouraging stereotypes? Telling your child to believe everything he or she reads? And if your child has red hair, will you automatically assume he/she is crazy?

Sir, quite frankly, you are not worthy of your pit bull or any dog.

Pit bulls were "originally" bred to race across a pit, attack another dog with no provocation whatsoever and continue to attack until the other dog is dead. (Hence the fact that they are called "pits," not "nannies")

But please, spare us the long diatribe about mythical pit bull history. Let's talk about right now. And right now pit bulls kill FAR more people in this country.

Rafael got a pit bull becasue of the glut of irresponsible pit bull breeders selling pit bulls to people who have no business owning them. The dog could be fine with the baby. But it is an irresponsibly bred pit bull and nobody with a brain would recommend that future parents GET an irresponsibly bred pit bull, so I don't blame Rafael for being concerned.

I don't know what Rafael should do. I do know that the pit bull community is responsible for this problem and for thousands and thousands and thousands of irresponsibly bred pit bulls in inappropriate homes becasue of their inability to face the reality that breed specific regulations are needed to control the glut of totally irresponsible pit bull breeders.

Please educated yourself about the breed before trying to make points. As per Wikipedia, about.com, Dogs 101, etc:

Affectionately called "The Nanny Dog" in England, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier belies the reputation given to him by those who are unfamiliar with him, and is a trustworthy companion to children and adults alike.

Staffies and pit bulls are essentially the same dog. Pitties, if you have ever had anything to do with this breed, have a natural affinity for children. This is why so many of the Vick dogs are flourishing in foster homes with kids.

I am a proud member of the pit bull community and advise every person NOT to breed and to spay/neuter their dog until the population is well under control.

However, I work every single day with "irresponsibly bred" dogs - i.e. dogs from the pound, homeless pits, once fought dogs, etc - and there is NO inbred bad behavior. It is simply a matter of teaching and training a dog, and children, boundaries. Children shouldn't pull on dog's tails and dogs shouldn't put their nose in kid's faces - if a dog is trained - ANY dog - there is nothing to worry about.

Yes, a bad owner can make a good dog bad and that happens all the time, not exclusive to pits.

Rafael is taking an easy route and I cannot judge him for this since he has vowed to find this dog a home. I do judge him and you for speaking so ignorantly about this breed and possibly influencing people in an uneducated way.

This is not a diatribe - this is from someone who truly knows the breed and is trying to educate you.

Hey, I agree that staffordshire bull terriers are NOT the problem. Of the 21 people killed by pit bulls in 2007, none was killed by a SBT. In fact, I don't know that anybody in this country has ever been killed by a purebred SBT.

For one thing, SBTs are little. For another, the SBT breeder community isn't grossly irresponsible the way that the pit bull breeder community is. They do a MUCH better job keeping staffordshire bull terriers out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them than pit bull breeders do, particularly generic pit bull breeders (who don't register with either AKC or UKC).

Of course, nobody can exempt SBTs from breed specific laws because suddenly every pit bull would become a "staffordshire bull terrier" to qualify for the exemption. But responsible Staffordshire bull terrier breeders in this country ALL register their dogs with AKC and dont' breed dogs that aren't shown. So they wouldn't be hurt at all (and would actually benefit substantially, as would their dogs) from the law I propose. (Mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes and mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs).

Strangely, staffordshire bull terriers seem to be quite a problem in parts of Australia: http://city-news.whereilive.com.au/news/story/staffies-top-dog-attack-list/

But that isn't here, and I agree that they are not what is glutting shelters and killing kids here.

Susan,

Have you thought about the implications of having to advise all pit bull owners not to breed their dogs until the overpopulation problem is under control?

You have to know that the only people who will take your "advice" are people who are at least borderline responsible, right? And you also have to know that lots and lots of the substantial irresponsible pit bull breeding community (who won't be interested in taking your "advice," sorry) are breeding FOR enhanced genetic dangerousness in pit bulls, right?

So if all the sort of responsible breeders STOP breeding pit bulls (note my example above of the owner of the Ch/Mach/UD AmStaff) and leave the only pit bull breeding to criminals and pondscum, what do you think is going to happen to (already problematic) pit bull temperaments? Remember, many of these irresponsible pit bull breeders WANT a weapon, not a companion animal and that is precisely what they breed for.

End result: Pit bulls are doomed.

Good job on proposing a law online.

Does that include doing anything to get it passed, or is it just a proposal you think is amazing and are proposing it online?

Cyg, I think lots and lots of the substantial irresponsible pit bull breeding community does not have the intelligence required to "enhance genetic dangerousness." Those words alone would probably scare them. I'd wager these people just want money.

Those who are blaming all "Pit bulls" for dog attacks.. Remember there is more then one breed considered a "pit bull". Also remember that any "mix" that attacks someone has ANOTHER breed in mix. It is not just a pit bull. If we are going to outlaw pits, lets outlaw any dog mixed with a pit bull that attacks.. Yup- Lab x Pit mixes. Lets ban labs, too.

How many dog attacks are caused by Pure bred, American Pit Bull Terriers. Pure Bred American Staffordshire Terriers? Not mixes. Not "Pit bulls".

Those who are blaming all "Pit bulls" for dog attacks.. Remember there is more then one breed considered a "pit bull". Also remember that any "mix" that attacks someone has ANOTHER breed in mix. It is not just a pit bull. If we are going to outlaw pits, lets outlaw any dog mixed with a pit bull that attacks.. Yup- Lab x Pit mixes. Lets ban labs, too.

How many dog attacks are caused by Pure bred, American Pit Bull Terriers. Pure Bred American Staffordshire Terriers? Not mixes. Not "Pit bulls".

Since you are a reporter, tell me how many children are murdered and/or abused by their mother each year. (hint, a quick google gives over 900K cases of abuse, over 1500 deaths, with 80% of them by parents for the year 2006 in the US). Sure, you know your wife, and she has been sweet and gentle, but how can you really trust her knowing this? Get rid of the mother now, before the baby comes home. Rehome her to some deserving bachelor.

If you see how insane that statement is, perhaps you'll rethink your emotional response to the innocent dog.

Not that I have a problem with rehoming the dog - if you don't have the willingness to train the dog, any dog, any breed, you should rehome it. But the Freddy Kruger comment is completely irrational. Roughly speaking, your child is statistically safer living with a pit bull than it's own mother.

For the math aware, yes you have to figure out the per capita aspect - most kids are raised by parents, far from all families have pit bulls. But then only a bit of over 50% of bites happen on your own property, the vast majority of fatal attacks are by unfixed dogs, a significant portion are by dogs that are left chained outside, etc., etc. Anyone with an agenda could draw a conclusion one way or the other by deciding what part of the statistics to emphasize and by making an estimate of how many pit bulls are extant. This is further complicated that with biggest study on dogs bites did not report pit bulls - American Pit Bull Terriers, but "pit bulls" (their quotes, not mine), which they state encompassed at least 4 different breeds. In short, it was if it "looked like" (my quotes this time) a pit bull. The point is the stats are "roughly" in the same ballpark.

I see some mention of the colby line and dreaded dog fighters.

I can bet you that not one of the dogs who are getting out and attacking people are "colby dogs". They are from back yard, ganster breeders who do not care what they are breeding. These are the breeders we need to stop- in ANY animal. Not the breeders who dedicate their LIVES to the breed they LOVE.

I beg all of you "pit bull haters" to do some basic reading and research on the breed. They are not human-aggressive dogs. They SHOULD love ALL humans. Its the back yard breeders who are making these dogs aggressive. They want to protect their guns and drugs.

Yes, they are DOG aggressive. However- they are a TERRIER. Jack Russels are known to be dog aggressive. Airedales are known to be dog aggressive. MOST terriers have a high prey drive, and are dog aggressive!

Roger, that was awesome!! :)

Cygnet,
your comment """"Hey, I agree that staffordshire bull terriers are NOT the problem. Of the 21 people killed by pit bulls in 2007, none was killed by a SBT. In fact, I don't know that anybody in this country has ever been killed by a purebred SBT.""""
is nuts. Because im sure you know that any dog that looks remotly like a APBT the media will say it is a pit, so that statment is 100% untrue to say its FACT!! see this is what i was talking about way back up in god knows how many posts are on this site now. You cant use assumptions for FACTS.. You have to get facts to say they are facts. and it is a FACT that the media will say its a pit even if its not. i read a report once online somewhere that it was a pitbull that bit some kids arm that was i think 3-4yrs old. come to find it was a strange kid to the dog, the parents were not around the kid was out back chasing the dog and trying to pull on its ears or something, oh the baby just wants to play but the dog doesnt. oh and did i forget to mention it wasnt s pit bull, it was a don cherry dog. sorry to anyone here that has one but i think they are a very ugly dog. but hey, its in the bully family, it think like a apbt, its about the same size for a reporter, its a pitbull cause that story will get more raitings.

and did any of you look at they report from myfox news?
ANY dog will become dangerous in daplorable conditions. little to no food and water, chained up, locked up, not socialized with people or animals. its just that a lot of these tied up dogs happen to be pits or mixes of pits cause a lot of aholes that think they are tough get them as a status symbol. not as a family pet. or like that 800lb woman who set her dog after the dog cather lady and they started to yell cause someone started hitting the dog to get it off. the dog was just doing what the owner wanted.
I work in peoples homes, not door to door but, im in a lot of homes, the main dog that wants to bite are small give them a boot dogs which is not a apbt.

Food for thought,
they wont, they will never go look up facts, this can go on and on till one grp gives up, or the reporter shuts it down cause he is getting a lot of hits it will not. They use rumors and media for their "fact" info.
you are correct they were never used for people agg, and they were used for nanny dogs way way back. Long before i was around.

Like i said i have one, everyone that meets him loves him, he is dangerous though cause he goes over to someone new and with his tail weapon he hits them over and over untill they come closer to pet him, WELL DANGER. cause then he strikes, he stands up on his back legs all the while still striking them with his tail and BAM, TONGUE LASHING!! over and over.
should he be put to death?

I agree that any dog will become dangerous in deplorable conditions, and would go further to say that any dog could become dangerous if not given the proper care and training. That's the situation I find myself in. The fact that this particular dog is a pit bull and that I, admittedly, distrust the breed was something I thought would make an interesting discussion. Those who have said I should have kept the specific breed out of it have a point, but I'm still glad this conversation is taking place.

When the time is right to pick out a dog for our family, a few years down the line, I hope to do so with an open mind. Many of you have made my mind more open to pit bulls.

Just not right now. :)

Roger,

You can't quote the Freddy Krueger line as irresponsible without being fair and reading the next couple of sentences. By itself, of COURSE that line is too much. But the line is not by itself. (Just like your re-home the mother line is too much if I ignore the part where you call that viewpoint insane).

Besides, I have time to train my wife. Wait, honey, I was kidding! Put down that coffeepot! AAAARGH!

Lucy,

I don't know that I agree with you about irresponsible pit bull breeders being too dumb to "enhance genetic dangerousness." Most of these folks aren't Einstein, but they know what they like. If they like a dog with a propensity to kill other dogs (or DEA agents) and they breed that dog to another dog with the same propensity, they are enhancing genetic dangerousness.

This is, after all, how pit bulls came to be in the first place.

Roger,

Actually, the one good case controlled study that was done of the factors that go into dog bites to children was "Which Dogs Bite: A Case Control Study" by Gershman, Sacks et al. in the journal "Pediatrics."

This study was done in Denver, where pit bulls are completely banned, so pit bulls were not a factor, but (unsurprisingly to any dog trainer) they found that two factors were most predictive of dog dangerousness to kids. The first was maleness and the second was BREED.

Breed (and, remember, this wasn't even pit bulls, which are the most likely to attack seriously) trumped chaining, methods of training, and (I was surprised by this) even whether the dog had shown previous instances of aggression as a predictor of aggression.

Gershman, Sacks et al. recommended that parents avoid getting dogs of certain BREEDS as a result of this study. (The two culprits in the study were chows and german shepherds)

Actually, it isn't true that "any dog will become dangerous given deplorable conditions." Some dogs have temperaments that are so rock solid that they can endure horrific abuse and come out loving and trusting human beings, other dogs and the rest of the world.

A person I know participated in a rescue of adult dogs from a puppy mill that bred golden retrievers and neapolitan mastiffs. The dogs were all kept in equally horrible conditions, equally unsocialized and ignored.

All of the golden retrievers were able to be rehomed in very short order and were able to be extremely successful in their new homes. (One went on to compete in AKC obedience, for example) Only ONE of the Neapolitan mastiffs was able to be rehomed.

Breed matters.

If I lined up a Staffie, pit bull, American Staffie, English Staffie, bull terrier - I would be very suprised if anyone could tell the difference. I work with dogs and know them in and out and I couldn't tell the difference. And they all have their own great personalities and quirks - purebred vs "irresponsibly bred" is a joke.

I have a 14 yr old pit bull, "irresponsibly bred", that I got from the pound when she was 2. Never have had an issue yet the man at the Park who bought a purebred Staffie can't even let his dog off-leash without a problem. It's just the dog, the owner and the training comittment ...learn it!

Dave,

I actually DON'T "know that anything that looks remotely like a pit the media will say is a pit." This is another convenient myth spread by the pit bull crowd.

Does the media sometimes get the breed of dog wrong when reporting attacks? Sure. They also sometimes get the name, age, and even gender of the victim wrong. So what? There is absolutely NO evidence that there is some kind of vast media conspiracy to malign pit bulls and to report boxer attacks as pit bull attacks.

In the first week of this year, two little girls were killed by dogs on opposite sides of the planet. In Georgia, Cheyenne Peppers was mauled to death by her family's pit bulls. In Australia, a five year old was killed by bullmastiff mixes. The pit bull fatality generated very little media attention. A few local stories is about all. The Australian attack generated LOTS of media attention, and followup stories and NOWHERE were the dogs involved (who were bully breed mixes after all--big heads, short coats, etc.) identified as "pit bulls."

In FATAL attacks, the media gets its information re the breed involved from law enforcement. Law enforcement has been trained to get facts right, because they know that they might have to testify about those facts in court and it would be embarrassing if they misidentified a lab as a pit bull. So I look mostly at fatal attacks. And, unfortunately for pit bulls, they are WAY disproportionately responsible for fatal attacks. This isn't a media invention. It is reality.

Susan,

I don't know what an "english staffie" is. And some UKC American Pit bull terriers are also registered as AKC American Staffordshire terriers, so it isn't very surprising if people can't tell the difference. There IS no difference. The very same dog can be both breeds.

Anybody who works with dogs who can't tell the difference between a bull terrier and any of those other breeds should look for a new job.

And saying that it makes no difference if pit bulls are responsibly bred or irresponsibly bred is the kind of thinking that got pit bulls in the mess they are in. It surely makes a difference to the 120 pit bulls who will die in LA shelters tomorrow that they were irresponsibly bred, doesn't it? (They wouldn't be dying if they had had a responsible breeder..)

We can't say for certain how many people will be killed by dogs in 2009, but we can be pretty confident about who the people killed will be and what breeds will be involved in the killing.

Most of the people killed by dogs in 2009 will be children. There will be some adults, mostly older or disabled adults. By far the most frequent breed doing the killing will be pit bulls. This will be followed by rottweilers. After that there will be a smattering of "huskies," german shepherd mixes and maybe some other bully breeds (probably an American Bulldog or two, maybe a bull mastiff.) or rare muscle breeds (presa canario, fila) There MAY be one or two "unusual" breeds, (i.e. labs, goldens, pomeranians, dachshunds). If any of these happens, they are guaranteed to get the most media coverage and to be cited for years to come when the media writes "any dog can kill" stories.

Anybody doubt that any of this is true? Anybody want to predict that this year labs will kill more people than pit bulls?

cygnet,
im glad you think you have the facts. why not do what all the correct people here are saying and go and do some real reading. omg man come on. so all the good things about pitbulls the 10's of 1000's of people are spreading all the good things about the dog. do you have issues with your brain or something? seriously? U honestly have no clue about the dog world.
You believe the media dont swing to get more raitings? are you blind and deaf??
I guess you think the gov alctually went to Iraq to find weapons of mass destruction LOL!

after knowing about the rappers and drug dealers and pit fighting which do you think will get more viewers to tune in?
cocapoo bites little 10yr old boy
or pitbull mauls young boy.
yes i know diff dogs but thats not the point. which would get more raitings. DUH!!!
do a search on goole for dog attacks. if its not a pitbull its DOG attacks. if its a pit its PITBULL attacks. Y when im sure that the pit is a dog.
meadia swing? naaa never..

the breed has little to do with it. GO DO SOME READING.
Just cause you got a story from your friend who had the lab and mastiff has nothing to do with it. how can they be certain that the dogs were in the exact same conditions and bla bla bla. they cant. you could say even better what about mike vics dogs. almost all went to good homes. so whats that tell you? of course you will come up with something stupid again. its the dog. whatever, go read.
go read oh wait go read. in fact the fact that most of the dogs went to good homes show that the pit can recover most times cause it just wants to be loved. it is the best dog out there because it has a need to please its master. better then any other dog. dont be a raceist with dogs. just cause there are pit out there that have issues and douche bags out there who use these dogs for fighting and then kick them to the curb, or hicks who have these dogs chained outside does not mean all of them are bad.
what about people? cause there are a pile of people in the slums of the states, well not just the usa, everywhere, that doesnt mean they are all bad, some sure probly are into drugs and whatnot. but most of them are just like everyone else.

"dog is a trained killer" mastiff or not. TRAINED
http://www.independent.com.mt/news.asp?newsitemid=82449

german sheppard SECURITY DOG
http://genevalunch.com/2009/01/30/security-guards-dog-attacks-young-dog-in-geneva/

Military dog bites women
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hvWEqwq3CrRvaQCmt21MfoYhjZJQD962QS100

a WOLF!!
http://www.timminspress.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1414508

If you read any of these check this one out.
"""""""""""""""""""""
American emergency rooms treated an estimated 310,000 people for dog bites in 2007, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The estimate has fallen fairly consistently since 2001, when an estimated 366,000 bite victims were treated.

However, many dog bites do not result in hospital visits and are not reported, so no state or federal agency has a total count.

There's also no reliable data on whether some dogs are more likely to bite than others. A 2000 study cited by the CDC and other health agencies reports pit bull-type dogs were responsible for more bite-related deaths than other breeds from 1979 to 1998, but it cautions that may mean pit bulls are just more common than other types of dogs.

Still, that may help explain why pit bulls are the most frequent targets of proposals to ban or restrict specific breeds of dogs. The American Kennel Club reports 86 such proposals were introduced nationwide in the 2007-08 legislative season. Most were for municipal ordinances. It is not clear how many passed.
"""""""""""""""""""

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gDxKUMAvSf4Dgpi-8V4nKYjOY39AD95UNSK00

Actually an American Bull Terrier (which I didn't spell out, SORRY!) or an Argentine Dogo are large white pit bull-like dogs that can easily be mistaken for a white pit bull.

Being that I rescue pit bulls from death row, rehab and rehome (spaying/neutering them BEFORE they go) - how dare you say I don't care about the pit bulls dying each day. I have dedicated a great deal of my life to helping this magnificent breed - watch yourself with the personal attacking in these notes.

Do you work with dogs every day? If so, you would have firsthand knowledge that a purebred and an "irresponsibly" bred dog have no real differences except what their owner teaches them.

You really seem to loathe this breed and all "irresponsibly bred" dogs, I feel sorry for you - you are missing out on some of the best dogs around. Absolutely there should be a moratorium on any type of pit bull breeding(Staffie, Bull's, etc) until the overwhelming homeless pit bull population is reduced. England did something like this and has had great success.

If you are ever in NYC and would like to spend a day with me and the amazing pits I work with - you are welcome.

Take care - your verbal attacks are getting way too manic. Your hatred for this breed is frighteningly similar to a certain dicatator in the 40's who also didn't like people who were, so to speak, "irresponsibly bred".

Good luck to you.

Oh, please. Now anyone who wants reasonable regulations regarding the breeding of domestic pets is compared to Hilter? I understand that "pit bull rescue" is a cause celebere amongst a certain type of young woman, who loves the kind of drama this type of discussion generates.

But its unethical and immoral for people posing as "dog experts" to claim that irresponsible breeding has no impact on a dogs temperament. Did you go to college, Susan? Because you make emotional statements that have no basis in science or reality. Why don't you contact someone who has their Doctorate in applied animal behavior from Tufts University and ask them if all dogs are merely blank slates, waiting for love and training to turn them into anything the owner wants them to be. Then ask a farmer(or maybe a 4H student) to explain to you the basics of animal husbandry, since you clearly don't understand.

The problem is, when a jouranalist like Rafael decides to go on-line and "reasearch" pit bulls, what he will find is an enormous amount of false information ...propaganda, revisionist history, none of which can be quantified by any verifiable data. Pit bulls were not created to be "herding dogs", they were never popular family dogs in the US, (Merritt Clifton debunked this claim by using data from newspaper and news archives)....the dog fighters never "automatically culled" manbiters (there are reams of articles,magazines, and interviews with dogmen who describe the viciousness of many of the famous fighting dogs)...that dog aggresiion is no big deal, easy to manage, and not the same as human aggression (despite the frequent cases where people have been badly injured trying to protect their dog from an attacking pit bull.)

The irony is, you are attacking cygnet, who has proposed something that would surely help PREVENT breed bans, by putting the bybers and dog fighters out of business, reducing the number of pit bulls entering shelters, and making it more difficult for pit bulls to fall into the wrong hands.

The "pit bull lobby" has been described as a reprobate cult, comprised of useful idiots, in unwitting service to dogfighters and mill breeders. It has become more obvious, based on the hystrionics of these posts, that this description is accurate.

Godwin's Law!

(You lose, Susan).

I am sure that Susan is a nice person who wants to help pit bulls. And if she is really working in NYC (where, according to the ASPCA, 80% of the dogs killed in shelters are pit bulls and pit bull mixes) she knows that "education" has been a complete failure at preventing horrific amounts of pit bull suffering.

But, like so many other pit bull people (even nice ones like Susan) she has been brainwashed by the pit bull breeding community to think that ANYTHING (including the mass killing of pit bulls at urban shelters, and the horrible pit bull suffering that preceeded it) is preferable to, uh, limiting the rights of pit bull breeders to make a profit off of irresponsibly breeding pit bulls.

Somehow, the pit bull breeding establishment has brainwashed a whole lot of nice Susans to be against ANYTHING that is "breed specific." They tell her how wonderful she is for going out into the trenches and rescuing the one in 600 (according to Missouri Pit Bull Rescue, I don't vouch for that figure) pit bulls who make it out of shelters alive.

Susan feels good, she gets to tell other people how mean and Hitlerian they are and 599 pit bulls (virtually all of whom suffered horribly before they ended up in the shelter) go quietly to their deaths.

And the pit bull breeding establishment keeps pocketing the profits of all this carnage, happy to have Susan defending their "rights" to breed pit bulls irresponsibly.

By the way, Susan, I am not sure where you got your notion that I "loathe" irresponsibly bred dogs. Two of my three dogs came from my local shelter and are irresponsibly bred. I adore them both.

The fact that I like dogs so much is the reason why I am so puzzled at the pit bull communitie's seeming indifference to the suffering of so many pit bulls. What is WITH it that they so steadfastly resist the passage of the breed specific laws necessary to prevent more of this suffering?

i had a good long post but it has to be review i think :)

Hey cygnet, hows this for you? do you think this puppy needed this?
http://www.ktvz.com/global/story.asp?s=9679491
i cant wait for that guy to get whats comming to him in jail

The "Pit bull" community is not indfferent to the suffering of dogs. If we were, we would not be fighting AGAINST breed specific legislation. Rescuing the breed. Trying to educate what the real breed is all about.

Yes, many of us are against BSL OF ANY type. SPaying and neutering laws for ALL pit bulls, microchips, etc is STILL BSL. We are STILL being singled out.

Figure out laws that involve EVERY breed of dog, without taking away the rights of someone who owns a specific breed of dog--and you'll find much more support from pit bull owenrs and advocates.

Would you want someone to say "Lets spay and neuter every husky, and require it to be microchipped so we can track it" . Most likely not. It's singling out a specific breed

Require microchipping for ALL dogs--and I totally support it! Require EVERYONE who wants to own a dog to take a test -- I'll support that hands down. Just don't pick on a specific breed! I don't care if they are picking on Rotties, Labs, Pit Bulls, Pugs, Huskies.. I will fight against BSL for ANY and EVERY breed of dog. I just wish the others would do the same.

Sorry, Food for Thought, but you are incapable of "rescuing the breed." Even assuming that there were a huge desire to do so among "responsible" pit bull owners, what, exactly COULD they do to stop irresponsible pit bull breeders? You've tried asking them nicely to stop hurting pit bulls. (It didn't work). The problem just keeps getting worse.

The problem that pit bulls have is that even "responsible" pit bull people have almost all been brainwashed to believe that pit bull problems are all about public relations, not about reality. They have been told (and, for some reason they believe) that if "the media" just changed it's approach to pit bulls that things would be fine. They have been told that everybody lies about the number of pit bulls killing and the number suffering and dying in shelters and elsewhere. (And I guess they never go to shelters themselves, and see for themselves, because the dogs are there and the suffering is there).

There are several problems with this. First of all, even if pit bull problems were the fault of "the media," so what? The media isn't going to change (and shouldn't change). When a pit bull kills a child, that is news and the media should report it.

But more importantly, the problems pit bulls have and cause are REAL and breed specific. You can't read a statistic like 80% of the dogs killed in NYC shelters are pit bulls and say not recognize that.

In the end, it comes down to pit bull people worrying far more about protecting themselves from what you describe as "feeling singled out," than they worry about saving pit bulls and protecting children. If that is their priority, then I guess pit bulls won't be saved.

Dave, you can't have too many links in one reply. I approved the comment you posted.

Nice way to teach a child that animals are disposable.

Actually, that was precisely the lesson I wanted to teach my son. Disposable at best. Useless creatures, these things.

Come on, did you read the post or any of the discussion that followed, or are you basing your comment solely on the headline?

Rafael, just ignore comments like that. You don't have to defend yourself. The only people that won't recognize that was a silly statement are those that haven't read the article.

Cygnet - You're quite proficient at making claims about what everyone supposedly believes that supports pit bulls. I don't believe media is solely to blame, but they do play a large part. When they constantly spout that the breed is inherently dangerous, has jaws stronger than those of other breeds, and have a tendency to "snap" without warning, this is what everyone believe. All the fools that want a dog with those traits will get one. All those that don't know any better will claim the boxer that bit them was a pit bull, or the pit bull that ran up to them was going to attack. I've experienced this myself when at my previous apartment, an unleashed chihuahua ran up to my leashed dog without the owner in site. It tried to play with my dog, and obviously as soon as my dog assumed the "play" pose, it yelped and started barking. The lady then came out, gave me a dirty look, and reported me to the managers as having a "vicious pit bull." Fortunately the managers were a little more intelligent, I had signed papers from other tenants and the maintenance staff that my dog was never an issue, and the people I was speaking with when the chihuahua ran up backed up my statement. I'm fortunate I was able to do this and that my dog did not have animal aggression and there were witnesses, because it would have only taken a second for that dog to have been killed by my 60lb "beast," and the finger would have surely been pointed at my dog instead of the unleashed chihuahua. If anyone says media is the only one to blame, they're a fool, and so are you if you do not believe they haven't played a role in the current pit bull stigma.

No truly responsible owner will argue that there isn't a problem with over-breeding. However, I still don't see your reasoning for only limiting pit bull breeding. Yes, it quite obviously needs to be regulated, but there is no need for breed-specific laws regarding breeding. Ignoring your fantasy world that all pugs are easily adopted except the worthless mixes, there are too many of every somewhat popular breed. You like to state that we "don't care about the pit bulls dying in shelters," so I assume it's safe for me to claim you don't care about the countless other breeds that die in shelters? Pit bulls need to stop being singled out as "that dog" and regulations need to be in place for all breeds. Unless someone has a good reason for breeding, they shouldn't be breeding, even "Matilda" with her pugs that will surely be adopted. It doesn't affect me as I have no plans of ever breeding, but they aren't the only breed that is dying in shelters. By the way, unfortunately the same scum that abuse these animals are still going to be spawning more, despite whatever laws are passed.

Oh, and quit with your "pit bull people don't care about the children and saving pit bulls" nonsense. Nobody has said they want pit bulls to continue being bred or the "poor children" being attacked. All that has been said is that no single breed should be singled out.

If you cared about all the dogs dying in puppy mills, you wouldn't want breed-specific breeding regulations. Obviously, you don't care about them.

Thanks Jorsher.

By the way, my next post is up, if anyone has some non-pet-related parenting advice...

http://blogs.trb.com/features/family/parenting/blog/2009/02/give_your_advice_to_a_firsttim.html

Actually, I don't see where "the media" is "constantly" saying pit bulls are inherently dangerous. In fact, I MUCH more often see the opposite--"the media" UNDER reports pit bull dangerousness, and whenever there is a pit bull attack, the media quotes some expert saying something like "the breed had nothing to do with it--any dog can bite."

The truth is that breed matters when it comes to dog dangerousness and lots of the folks attrracted to pit bulls because of violence (and, no, this isn't the fault of "the media" either--pit bull are historically attractive to people who like violence because they are dog fighting dogs) breed for even higher levels of dangerousness.

Let's have a contest. You look for and post what you believe to be the WORST, most inaccurate mainstream media (i.e. not a letter to the editor or somebody's blog) article from the last two weeks, unfairly maligning pit bulls. I'll post some that I think MINIMIZE the problems pit bulls have and cause and paint pit bulls as without problems.

Let's see who has an easier time finding articles.

Rules: Articles must be from mainstream US sources. Within the last two weeks.

Here's my first nominee, showing that the media isn't "constantly" badmouthing pit bulls:

http://www.reporternews.com/news/2009/feb/01/dogs-even-pit-bulls-are-like-people/

I look forward to seeing articles demonstrating the horrible media bias against pit bulls. (You know, the ones that supposedly talk about locking jaws and exploding brains...)

Mainstream US sources? So, an opinion column is acceptable? Hm... I just need to find someone to post their opinion on a mainstream website? How about this one?

It's the same as your source (opinion) and is on a mainstream site in the last two weeks.

There you go.

Or wait, do you want me to find someone that has posted something negative about them?

By the way, you completely ignored the statement on how much you don't care about the other breeds suffering in shelters. I'm glad that you care about pit bulls so much, but you're allowing all the other breeds to die in shelters due to overpopulation.

Or, are you still living in the fantasy world in which every breed except the pit bull is adopted out without problem?

Jorsher,

Forgive me, but I don't understand what you are citing, to support the contention that the media is disseminating "constant" misinformation re pit bulls.

Re your contention that my proposal will "allow" other dogs to die in shelters, well, sort of.

But you need to understand that pit bulls are a special case, first because they are the only purebred where even puppies frequently die in shelters in this country. This makes them a much clearer example of frank overpopulation, as opposed to ownership retention issues.

Second, pit bulls are a special case because of the incredibly out of proportion scope of the pit bull crisis, compared to the, um, borzoi crisis. 80% of the dogs currently being killed in NYC shelters are pit bulls or pit bull mixes. 65% of the dogs that come into the Nebraska Humane Society in Omaha are pit bulls and they kill every single one of them. And nationwide, estimates of pit bull populations in shelters consistently are above 20%.

So, if there was a way to just get the pit bull overpopulation problem under control, it WOULD be helping other dogs, because there would free up many, many resources both for the remaining pit bulls and for other dogs.

Finally, there is a WAY to control pit bull overpopulation, because there is a political will to do so, whereas there isn't political will to control, (mythical) pug overpopulation. I know that you want a big bureaucracy to be formed at taxpayer expense, to tell all dog breeders which dogs they can and can't breed, but guess what? Nobody else wants it. Not even responsible breeders (who do a better job than your mythical governmental entity EVER could in many breeds) and certainly not puppy buyers (who don't want to pay higher taxes to solve the non-existent problem of clumber spaniel overpopulation).

So your big governement bureaucracy proposal to solve the crisis generated by too many flat coated retrievers isn't going to happen.

But people actually ARE concerned about the pit bull crisis. It is true that most of this concern isn't generated by pit bulls glutting shelters. That problem is easily and relatively cheaply solved with sodium pentobarbital. Most of the concern is generated by pit bulls ripping childrens' faces. But, whatever the reason, the political will exists to look at solutions to the pit bull crisis.

Those solutions can either been ones that HELP pit bulls and responsible pit bull owners (like mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs) or ones that don't (like absolutely breed bans).

You can't decide which solution will happen but you certainly can decide which solution you support. Or you can take the path of nearly all the rest of the pit bull community and stamp your feet and say that you don't WANT a solution to the pit bull crisis. That's fine too, but don't be complaining when the solution that other people choose isn't one that helps pit bulls.

Media does not work through fear:
http://www.kirotv.com/news/18625310/detail.html

Jeremy commented 5 hours 24 minutes ago
I am the father of the children involved in the above story many of the statements made are ntrue and where not made to law enforcement at the time of investigation. They only came out to news crews.. This matter is one that our family is looking closely at to determine the safest way to continue to raise our children that we adore and love more then anything. Our daughter after being seen at Mary Bridge was deemed to have NO bite marks or marks that support the dogs having caused direct harm to the children. This is a troubling time as it is for any and all that are looking in on this . The dogs have been part of our house hold for 1 1/2 weeks as rescues it has been our intent to evaluate the dogs and address any issue that are found before they are placed in proper homes.

It can be safely assumed that the dog was not a pit bull as it was not emblazoned in the headline.

I'm still amazed you believe it's "mythical" that pugs die in shelters.

Simply amazing.

And again, quit with your nonsense that we don't want a solution. Quite a pathetic counterclaim.

Josher, what in God's name is wrong with you? Do you live your life so far outside of mainstream society that you think this story proves your point of "media bias" against pit bulls?

The father was a registered sex offender with a prior conviction on animal cruelty charges. He claims to be involved in "dog rescue"! He left two small children alone in a back yard with two strange dogs he had only had for a little more than a week???!!!! The dogs in the video are pit bulls....what on earth were you trying to show us by posting this?

That these are the types of people who are involved with "pit bull rescue"? Look at the pictures of the dogs, for God's sake. What pit bull rescue group places dogs with convicted amimal abusers and sex offenders?

Your post supports cignet's claim that we need to breed-specific controls on pit bull breeding to keep pit bulls out of the hands of the criminals who seem attracted to them.

And you never answered my question....do you support mandatory s/n for ALL dogs, or is it "not worth it", and "can't be enforced"?

Janet said it well. What is going on with you, Jorsher? Did you post that article (and the absolutely bizarre response from the, ahem, father) as an example of how wronged pit bull owners are by the media?

But does the article even mention that the dogs involved are pit bulls? Basically, what it is is an exercise in "how many irresponsible dog ownership/horrible parenting examples can you find in one brief story?"

And the owner gets on the internet and says that the dogs he left his four year old with while he slept (why he wasn't able to be roused is another question) were recent rescues that he intended to "evaluate."

Do you think his lawyer is happy with him right now?

By the way, pit bull people always claim "it's not the dog, it's the owner." I am kind of bemused by the fact so many pit bull people argue so strenuously that pit bull owners are irresponsible on a breed specific basis, but when you read articles like Jorsher published, you have to admit that they have a point.

In truth, of course, it is BOTH the dog and the owner. Pit bulls both tend to have high levels of innate aggression AND to appeal to people who are exactly the worst kind of people to own such a dog. Many pit bull owners are people who want to use dogs as weapons, and/or people who (like the gentleman in the article Jorsher cites above) frankly are lacking a few IQ points.

But if pit bull people want to go on claiming that pit bull OWNERS are irresponsible on a breed specific basis, all the more reason to pass laws regulating them, isn't it?

Rafael,

If you don't have the inclination or time to care for any pet - than yes you should adopt it out to a good home. A pet should be respected and loved and part of a family and if you can't provide that or are unwilling to provide it than give him to a good home and family that will. If you care of this dog than that's the least you can do for him.

My take on the whole article is that - it seems as though you feel guilty at the thought of getting rid of the dog. So to justify getting rid him without feeling too bad - you state that he's a pit bull and he "might" be dangerous. It eases the guilt a bit when you can have a justified reason for getting rid of a pet.

I am not trying to be condescending or offensive - I've been in pit bull rescue a long time and I have seen and heard it all. Sometimes you just can't keep a pet - regardless of the reasons.

I think you truly have come to care for this dog. You have fallen in love with the breed and all the traits that make this breed great. Regardless of any or all of the dogs you own in the future - none of them will make you laugh, show you loyalty, or love you the way your pit bill did. Regardless of the reasons of why you have him now - he is your pit bull.

We have a son, Brandon, that has only been raised with pit bulls and a couple of Bengal cats. He is now 8 years old. We've never had an incident and I don't believe we ever will.

It was easy when he was a baby/toddler - Katie was older, relaxed, easy to train to be around him. She learned to love dinner time with Baby Brandon - I don't think she ever ate so well in all her 15 years.
She was protective of him.
She was tough and tolerant and could handle his climbing on her and jumping on her. We had to teach him to be gentle with her, no pulling her ears or tail - not that she minded - but it was good for Brandon to understand and respect her too.
She never once complained at his activities.
She was put to sleep at the ripe old age of 15, with Brandon petting her head while she crossed the Rainbow Bridge.

Brandon has two other pit bulls - they are his puppies. They love this little boy. They're so excited to be around him. They have to be near him - both sit at his feet while he plays video games. They sit with during movie time and sleep with him during naps. Sometimes there is no room on the chair or in his full size bed for the three of them.

We teach Brandon how to be around them - how to read their body language, how to address them, command them.

We teach the dogs how to be around Brandon, no excessive licking, no jumping, no headbutting his hand for pets.

We recognize that we have strong dogs and it takes work to teach everyone how to be around each other. But this is the responsibility of ANY DOG OWNER - regardless of breed or size.

We're also wise enough parents to never leave any child alone with any of the pets. If anything the cats are more dangerous than the dogs.

For the record - all our dogs are adopted from rescues and shelters.

You're intelligent, well-spoken - and give both sides their fair share. I can understand and respect your genuine worry about the new baby and the stresses that come with a new child. So I can't be upset or even mad that another great pit bull will lose its chance at the opportunity to become a great family dog.

In the end - I could site example after example of children being killed by other breed of dogs - but in the end what does that accomplish? All it shows is that to be a great parent and great dog owner you have to know to how train your child, train your pet and understand how to read both their body languages.

More than anything - I am sad. Sad that this always happens to great dogs because of what they are and not who they are. Sad that another intelligent person is again taken in by the hype and "fear". Sadder still that you know you have a great dog and are going to give that up.

*Sigh* - Saddest that people in general are still this prejudice, judgmental, and too scared to try and understand another point of view and too lazy to fight for a dog's life.

I wanted to comment on the "you should adopt him out to a good home" aspect of your post. This may be impossible. Because of pit bull overbreeding by irresponsible pit bull breeders, Missouri Pit Bull Rescue says that only one pit bull in SIX HUNDRED will ever find a permanent home.

Sadly for pit bulls, the response of the pit bull community has been to try to address this problem at the drain, rather than the spigot. That is, rather than stopping the horrible glut of irresponsible pit bull breeders, they try to persuade more and more people that pit bulls are the right dog for them. Since pit bulls are high drive, high energy, escape artists who often can't be trusted with other dogs, they actually AREN'T good dogs for lots of people, so this strategy just contributes to more pit bulls getting dumped.

And, until pit bull people address the issue of pit bull breeder irresponsibility by supporting breed specific law, pit bull "rescue" is just an exercise in shuffling the deck and assuring that different pit bulls die, it isn't saving pit bull lives.

Rafael....I am getting the feeling that this thread is nearing its end; you can continue to listen to personal testimonials by strangers on the internet that may or may not be true, that accuse you of being alternately an insensitive idiot, or a dog hater, for getting rid of the pit bull. But since this is a parenting column, I would like to leave you with a bit of parenting advice.

Trust your judgement. As a parent, you will develop an inexplicable ability to know when your child may be at risk. You can call it "parental instinct", or a little voice in your head....it may be your own mothers voice, coming back to remind you of something. Some people say it is the voice of the Divine.

Don't ignore that voice.

When the babysitter has perfect credentials, but there is just something....something about her that makes you uncomfortable.....listen to that voice. When your daughter wants to go to a sleepover at the neighbors house, but you get a bad vibe from the mothers new "boyfriend"...listen to that voice. You don't need a Consumer Reports rating guide to tell you that the car seat you DIDN'T buy failed their crash test...there was something you didn't like about it in the store; it didn't feel solid enough for you, and you used your own judgenment.

You and I both know its that little voice telling you "this could harm my child" when you look at the dog. Its something primal. You see it visually...its muscular physique, powerful jaws reveal the dogs original purpose. You asked yourself the question above...what is this dogs background? Who created this dog, and for what purpose? Was this dog bred to guard a meth lab, or to kill other animals?

You have gotten a good look at the people who advocate ferociously for these animals....are you entirely comfortable with their motives?

Your brain, your heart, and your gut have conspired to tell you something....you just have to listen, and use your common sense. Your decisions may not always be PC, and may bring criticism....even from the people you love. But being a parent means erring on the side of caution; it means you often have to be the bad guy. It may mean telling your 16 year old that, no, he can't get into a car with his three older friends to go to that concert, and enduring his wrath; it may mean that you take a lot of heat from pit bull activists for getting rid of a pit bull because, deep down, you don't trust a pit bull around a baby.

Just remember the regret you would feel if those boys died in a drunk driving accident, or if your toddler was mauled by a pit bull and permanently disfigured. You would never forgive yourself for not following your intial insticnt.

As one friend of mine likes to say...."I'm a mother, and this is life, not popularity contest." Do what you need to do, Rafael, and when it comes to protecting your child, NEVER apologize for your actions.

I have never been bitten by a pit bull and I own an awesome American Bulldog, but I have been bitten numerous times by designer "purse" dogs. My niece was bitten in the face by 3 lb Yorkie and nearly needed stitches. Perhaps these "purse" dogs should be the next to be eliminated? I bet all the Palm Beach Princesses would stand up for those dogs which bite far more people every year. Let me know how your Yorkie protects your family when someone breaks in. In 12 years my dog has not so much as even growled at a kid, but I dare anyone to walk into my house without knocking.

Recent attack by "pit bull" that oddly looks nothing like one and more like a popular "family" breed:
http://www.jacksonsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200901280520/NEWS01/901280308

These wonderful 100-lb pit bull mixes:
http://www.ktvz.com/Global/story.asp?S=9736954

I guess it obviously was mixed with a pit bull if it bit someone.

not gonna bother reading every comment. i hate when people give up their dog (ANY BREED) cause their having a baby. and are too lazy to properly train the dog during the pregnancy so the dog can get used to having a real baby around. i also think that if you dont have time to care/love/train a dog, then you shouldn't be having kids.

What a mean-spirited thing to say. You're not going to bother reading the thoughtful comments that have been made, you're just going to pass judgment. I'm glad it's not up to you to decide who gets to have kids. I say if someone has the honesty to recognize the limits of his time, he should follow his conscience rather than the judgments of the willfully ignorant.

If you saw the injuries to my son's face, ear and scalp inflicted by his uncle's dog---a friendly dog not a drug dealer's dog--you would never take the chance. The dog attacked without warning and just lunged for my son as i stood right beside him. in seconds his head was ripped apart and I and another relative were lucky to get the dog off before he was killed. Good luck and image how you will feel holding a blood covered child if the unimaginable happens.

Jorsher,

The one dog pictured in the Florida bite does not look like a pit bull.

The dog in the Oregon (?) attack could well be a hundred pound pit bull mix. (He looks fat in the picture provided). Are you unaware that lots of irresponsible pit bull breeders are breeding pit bulls to be grossly oversized? Maybe they are mixing them with other breeds (mastiffs and whatnot) but they are SELLING them as pit bulls, and bragging that they are well over 100 pounds.

Controlling this population of irresponsible pit bull breeders is another good side effect of breed specific legislation requiring the spay/neuter of all pit bulls except AKC/UKC-PR registered show dogs.

Get rid of the damned dog.

Yeah, yeah, I know, it's all about "bad" owners and "bad" training, yada, yada.

That's all well and good until something triggers the dog to act on it's breeding and inflict a BITE, which could be your BABY'S last such experience.

I'm sure there's all sorts of dangerous things that one could keep safely around your house - handgrenades, straight razors, torches, guns, hedge trimmers, electrical cords, ad infinitum. You just have to decide for yourself what level of risk you're willing to expose your child to and what benefit you gain from keeping such things.

I've SEEN a Pit Bull kill a puppy with just one bite, in a fraction of a second. And it was an otherwise well-behaved Pit at that. Whatever the reason for the dog acting that way, or whatever training might aleviate that kind of behavior, the POTENTIAL will always exist.

Do you really want to take that kind of risk?

I don't know, Geo. On the one hand, I agree with you. But then I have to live with the scar of dogandpuppylover calling me lazy. I mean, can I risk losing the respect of a poster who admittedly doesn't bother to read the comments and follow the discussion, just to protect my offspring from a dog that was dumped on my family by an irresponsible relative I wouldn't trust with a goldfish, much less a pit bull? I don't know. It's a tough call. My baby's safety, versus dogandpuppylover's respect. I'll have to think about it.

Yeah right.

Geo, I hold your views. I MAY be wrong about them. That's why I wanted to see what others had to say. And while the disagreements in this discussion have been heated, they've mostly been civil and informed. I'm proud of that. And I'm proud that the people who HAVE "bothered" to read all the comments recognize the nuances of the position in which I find myself. It's not like I went out to a shelter, picked out a puppy, and am suddenly looking to dump him at the first opportunity. Lazy? Do me a favor: save the personal insults for people you actually know.

By the same token, cygnet, I am unable to agree with you about the motives of most people who've posted here. I happen to know one of them personally, an old, dear friend. And I know her motives are pure and heartfelt. I cannot assume that the motives of the other pitbull lovers are any less pure. Maybe one or two have ulterior motives, but I don't see it. I see people standing up for what they believe in, disagreeing about the best possible solution in a society that attempts to be both responsible and free. I admit my fear and prejudice about the breed. I respect their efforts to educate me (accompanied by their expressed understanding of my unique situation).

We're home now. The situation has not been resolved, but we're all doing everything we can to keep the dog and the baby as far from each other as possible. I do not want to send the dog to a shelter where he may ultimately lose his life. I will do my best to find him a good home.

But I'm sorry; that home will not be mine.

Rafael,

Sorry to hear that you have not resolved the situation - but to give advice about the dog and baby being in the same house.

That's fine if you keep them apart but you should also consider training the dog to get used to having the baby being in the house.

I understand that you are going to adopt the dog out - but in the mean time it'll help you keep your peace of mine.

If you don't already crate train - consider it. When you give the dog up for adoption you can give the crate to the new owners.

Learn how to read the dog's body language. He'll be curious - he'll want to sniff and that's perfectly normal. He's probably already sniffing the air. He'll get used to the baby within the next week or so.

Whatever you do try not to be too jumpy or tense when the dog and the baby are within the same vicinity. He'll pick up on it and he might associate the baby with your tenseness.

Also remember to keep taking him for walks and to try to spend at least 10 minutes of alone time with him a day.

Watch for any different behaviors from him in any situations where he might feel uncomfortable - if you're tense - watch to see if the dog is tense, yawning, low hanging head. He'll pick up on you be tense and unsure. If you're around the baby and he is within the vicinity and he senses that you're tense he'll pick up on that and become tense and unsure. If this happens consistently he might associate your tenseness with the baby. This can be a very stressful situation for everyone so remember to try and stay as calm as possible around him.

Also try not tell at him or punish him when the baby is around - as again he might associate the baby with him getting yelled at.

Obvious signs are also hair standing on end, showing of teeth, low hanging tail.

Happy or relaxed signs are swinging tail, head held high, relaxed stance.

Try not to change your routine with him too much, he'll adjust but remember that this situation is stressful to him too.

Walking him at night will be very good for him.

If he's been to all his obedience training classes - use his commands as much as possible. If he shows up where he's not suppose to be use a sit command and redirect him to where he is suppose to be.

I don't think its such a bad idea to introduce him to the baby. You can hold the baby and have him sit in the same room as the family. If he wonders up you can use a leave it command or a sit command and redirect him.

If you need additional reading material on dog body language and introducing new family members please let me know - I'll be more than happy to recommend some.

And good luck with both the baby and figuring out what to do with the pup.

"Many of you have made my mind more open to pit bulls."

Rafael, thank you; you've made my day. :)

It is such a joy to encounter an open mind. Your feelings/misapprehensions towards pit bulls reminds me of how I once felt about wolfdogs.

I freaked the first time my neighbor's wolfdog dug under the fence to come visit my 10 lb. shih tzu and 25 lb. lhasa mix. The once-cute puppy grew to be an apparently not so cute anymore dog, so she was stuck in the yard and forgotten. Nothing could keep her out of my yard, she dug her way over every single day. Once I saw that she wasn't interested in playing with or hurting my dogs, that she just needed to 'be' with them, I let her stay until her owner returned home from work. I eventually convinced my neighbor to release her to me and I found a great home for her.

She was a fantastic dog. Friendly, playful, smart as a whip, not at all the unpredictable, ferocious killer that I had read about in National Geographic (if you can't trust N.G.....who CAN you trust?).

I hate being lied to or mislead even more than I hate being wrong so I joined an email group of wolfdog owners to learn more about them. I had already made up my mind that anyone who owned these dogs had to be like my neighbor who got hers because it was 'cool'. That or I pictured some backwoods yokel strumming away on a banjo. Anyway, I was blown away! I have learned more about not only wolfdogs, but canine behavior, genetics, science, etc from this group. They stress over and over again what it takes be responsible and they were so not anything like my neighbor. (BTW, I learned enough from them to know that I do not have what it takes to be a responsible wolfdog owner)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make this so long. But do you see the correlation here? Take the time to find out for yourself about pit bulls and like you said, when the time is right for you....maybe you will get your own pit.

Also, may I suggest the book "Bandit" by Vicki Hearne and the badrap website.

Good luck finding a home for the dog. I don't own a pit but my parents, sister, etc do. My nieces were raised with them and there is not another breed I would trust more around kids. My darling shih tzu??? Ha!

In re-reading what I posted, I realized I wasn't very clear about my experience with the neighbor's wolfdog. This happened daily and over a period of about 6 months. I got to know the dog very well. Once, I even woke up to find her sleeping in the bed with me, my husband, and our dogs! (it was summertime and we left the back door open). All I could do was laugh.

If anyone's still following this: the dog is still here. So is the kid. We're still looking to find him a decent home or have his actual owner take back full responsibility.

Congratulations on your new baby! Are you getting much rest?

Did you ever visit the site dogsandstorks.com?

You said both the baby and the dog are there. I'm guessing from this statement that they are doing OK together.
Of course, if you fail to prevent any kind of attack, that would label you as an irresponsible owner, the same as the idiots on TV screaming about how their dog would never hurt anyone.

Still, there's a lot of misinformation about pit type dogs on here (I refuse to call them pit bulls-it is not a breed). American Pit Bull Terriers themselves are the famed nanny dogs, and were bred specifically to avoid human aggression as a safety precaution in the pit. This of course means that other dogs will typically be a no-no, as they are very dog-aggressive, even with socialization.

I'm sure you have heard it all before, though, so I'm only going to ask you this: why are you still intent on getting rid of the dog?

Why would anyone who loves these dogs want to see one stay someplace where he's not wanted?

You already answered the question you asked: "Of course, if you fail to prevent any kind of attack, that would label you as an irresponsible owner, the same as the idiots on TV screaming about how their dog would never hurt anyone."

That's pretty much exactly my point.

It's not so much that I insist on getting rid of the dog. If that were the case, he'd be gone already. It's that I insist on finding the dog a home where he will be properly cared for, trained and given the TLC and attention he needs to thrive. Ours is not that home.

To Bill who posted
"Love the video stats on "only 9 children per year killed" by pit bulls. Where are the stats on how many children are injured? By the way, how the hell did you wind up with a pit bull in the first place? Are you a drug dealer or an idiot? No amount of time or love or training will change the fact pit bulls have historically been bred to fight/attack"

You should pay attention before you begin posting ignorant responses. The video states that 9 children a year are killed by "dogs". Not all 9 are killed by pitbulls. Also, where did you get the idea that you have to be a drug dealer to own to pitbull? You are just an ignorant person. Before pitbulls got a bad reputation (which they got because they became popular pets for people who don't care about their pets), they were very popular as family pets. The dog in the little rascals and buster brown were pitbulls. Back then many people had pitbulls as their family dog. Any dog can be vicious if it is treated poorly.

My brother rescued two Afstaffs over a decade ago. The female showed the scars of having been used as a bait dog. The male spent his first eight months in a cage. They were wonderful, smart, affectionate dogs who never showed any aggression to humans or dogs and whom my brother spoiled shamelessly. He now has a year-old pit which he adopted from a vet's office when he was a puppy. The dog is currently being held by Broward County animal services after biting the neighbor (when he jumped in) and his dog. He's very affectionate with humans, but he has a problem with SOME dogs and unfortunately, no one knows which dogs he categorizes as SOME. So here are three dogs: two rescues, one suffering from the results of fighting and one showing signs of abuse; and another adopted from a vet's office with both parents on premises. Which would you assume would be the problem dog?? I was prompted to find this website after witnessing a dog fight at a Broward County dog park this morning. Lab/ retriever mix and a pit bull went at it. The pit went for the throat and the other dog was bleeding profusely and rushed to a vet. I hope he made it. Walking back to my vehicle with my two mutts I noticed a monster truck with a sign on the window advertising AKC pit bull puppies for sale. I wrote the guy's number down, but what do I do with it??? I'm against breed-specific legislation, but at the same time should this guy be allowed to keep breeding this beast?? Why isn't this breeder being regulated? People like this guy are killing the breed.

(Aside to Cowboy Way: The Wall Live is my all-time favorite!!)

I just want to clear up something I said about the young pit not liking SOME dogs. He has never attacked another dog. I have the same problem with my 12-year-old terrier mix... 99 times out of 100 she's very friendly with other dogs...occasionally she'll meet one she just doesn't like and she'll bark like crazy. I suppose they're no different than people... once in a while I'll meet someone who really rubs me the wrong way...I don't bite them, but sometimes I think it would be a good idea!!!

I've been bitten by more Chows (2) and German Sheppards (1) than pitbulls. I own 2 pitbulls and they are family dogs and protectors of our property. Exactly what I raised them to be. I have a 2 year old son and he aggravates the dogs to death, but they love him as much as everybody else in the house. It's all about the dog owner.

Looks like another attack today brought this article back up for discussion. Not much to add to what I've said before: so far everything's okay, but I continue to search for a good home for the dog.

It is so sad to me that people are so prejudice against pitbulls. That ignorant people would actually say that they would be happy if the breed was eliminated, because those are they people who dont own a pitbull, The people who judge pitbulls by what they hear about them. I have people come up to me in Petsmart and pet my pitbull and tell me how pretty and friendly she is, and then when I tell them she is a pitbull they step away from her and say "oh shes a pitbull?" Like they no longer want to pet her because of her breed. It makes me just want to scream at them. I mean really they thought she was a nice dog until they found out she was a pitbull! I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinions and pitbull owners will just have to keep trying to educate the ignorant about these wonderful, loving, loyal, dogs.

A dog is a dog, the reasons dogs attack are at fault of the human carer.We treat dogs like humans instead of what they are.
When a dog attacks it is not being vengeful or malicious. If you let your dog believe it is in charge of you, which i'd say about 80% of owners do without realising, then it will act of its own accord, it is possible, in serious cases, that it will take it upon itself to eradicate what it feels is the weakest member of the pack. Obviously this is not right but the owner here is to blame NOT THE BREED. Any dog can act in this way, it is survival and instinct, it is up to us to lead our dog and not the other way around.
The reason Pit Bulls are in the tabloids so much in relation to aggression is because of some of the people that keep them. People who think it is cool to have an agressive dog, a dog that will make them look 'gangsta' and tough infront of there friends, these are the same people who arnt going to bother to train there dog or to stop it being aggressive. These kinds of people aren't going to buy a labrador or a westie (but if they did it would act in the same way!), no, they would buy a rottweiler, a staffie, a pit bull. So you have untrained people with untrained dogs and these cases start to happen. People like us here about this 'reputation' these breeds have and immediately freak out.
(i'm not saying everyone who keeps these dogs is that way, there are obviously ppl who keep these breeds who are perfectly responsible owners but when you have a large type of people with an agressive mentality with the same breed of dog then it doesnt look good to ppl from the outside, the tabloids only pick up on what they want)
If you don't understand dogs, if you dont have time for dogs then don't have a dog in your family, a dog takes as much work, if not more, as a child (and no that doesnt mean you should treat it like a child but it will need excersise, discipline and affection, in that order to!).
People forget what dogs are, its so common to have a dog that ppl think its easy, that the can be a part of the family with no effort, they forget what can go wrong without the aquired training and leadership from the owner. We associate pets like lizards, and snakes, and spiders with the wild, most people wouldnt want to keep them as pets and dont see them as pets, some people even see them as dangerous. You especially wouldnt think of buying such a thing when about to have a baby as they require lots of care being exotic animals. I think in some ways dogs should be thought of the same,we take dogs for granted, they are beautiful loving creatures that we are privelaged to live with, they make you feel better when your upset and theyre always there for you, loyal.But they are animals, with their own instincts and ideas of right and wrong, they dont think like us and if youre willing to understand that and to get inside their mind then you will have a great experience with your dog.
If not, and you want to blame everything on breed then a dog isnt for you.

...and people always claim ''oh the attack came out of nowhere, he's never done this before'' which most of the time if not all of the time is rubbish, people just dont know dogs well enough to know the signs of a dog that thinks its in charge.But people read this and believe it, getting the impression that dogs are these uncontrollable spontaneous beasts!

sorry one last thing...to even mention that you think these dogs should be sterilized or extinct tells me you dont know a lot about dogs! and if this is the case you have no right in commenting in such a way.Next you'll be telling people that we should get rid of sharks to make the sea a 'safer' place! lol who are you to decide what species lives and dies....are you god? no , do you have any insight into dogs? no apparently not.

Anji,

Thanks for the comments.

Well I'm a little late here but I just read all these posts b/c I was curious about different opinions about Pitbull and children. All I can say is why do the Pitbull owners keep repeating the same thing over and over when the author already commented on their accusations etc. OMG how annoying! Make a different point or comment on something else for goodness sake! We all have different experiences in life (not always just media hype) and of course we all have freedom of speech. Some people need to remember that. Raphael you seem highly intellegent and you are doing the right thing. Your family will and should always come before an animal. Now some people behave as though their animals are family members (that's their choice). In your case this dog is not your family member and it can be in another responsible family's home. Congrats on your growing family:)

I've been a dog lover all my life. All breeds. Until last Tuesday night when my dog was visciously attacked by a pit bull mix. My dog was simply walking on his leash and the pit bull mix charged out of a neighbor's front door, grabbed my dog and dragged him into the bushes. The injuries to my dog were horrific. It happened in one split second. My life, and my dog's life, have been forever changed. It scared the living daylights out of me and very nearly killed my dog. I feel like vomiting when I think of a pitbull near an infant or a child. It's my opinion based on my experience. Obviously all pit bulls are not killers, but a child's life is never worth the risk. Oh, the neighbor said their dog was a real sweetheart!

(For the record, my dog was adopted from a shelter.)

(For the record, my dog was adopted from a shelter.)

Hey Rafael, just wanted to see how is it going with baby and the dog?

I'll have to post an update soon, but so far the situation's been manageable. The family member who owns the dog is getting closer to being able to care for him, which is a help.

Hi,
i am not going against anything and i understand you do not wish to look after a pitbull whilst having an infant around.
but i do not think we should kill them because a german shepard could kill a baby but they wont get put down it depends with some dogs might get along and some might not all of the dogs arent nesseseriliy pit bull. anywayz how are you going with the dog and baby
?

Hi,
i am not going against anything and i understand you do not wish to look after a pitbull whilst having an infant around.
but i do not think we should kill them because a german shepard could kill a baby but they wont get put down it depends with some dogs might get along and some might not all of the dogs arent nesseseriliy pit bull. anywayz how are you going with the dog and baby
?

i got my pittie kong as big dog never as pup. the owner be for me would fight him . he is a killer..kong has been our dog for 4yrs do i trust him with my babys.. with thier lives yes i do i trust even with the cat we'r just one big happy family .he knows he found a good home we where ment 2 be together.my husband is jealous he knows kong is the man of house

i got my pittie kong as big dog never as pup. the owner be for me would fight him . he is a killer..kong has been our dog for 4yrs do i trust him with my babys.. with thier lives yes i do i trust even with the cat we'r just one big happy family .he knows he found a good home we where ment 2 be together.my husband is jealous he knows kong is the man of house

First of all he stated in the article that he was not the owner, but belongs to someone else in the family.

Second children should not be around pit bulls or any animal that could cause damage.

Especially if the dog isn't trained.

A person (esp a defenseless child) should come before having a dog that may or may not harm the child.

HOpe you find the dog a great loving home!! That is the responsible thing to do if the dog hasn't done anything wrong. Is that what you mean by gone? Just post an ad for a home, who cares why...lots of people discard animals because of a new human family member. I don't think thats right, and the pound is never an option. But why bother with this thread...find the dog a home...geesh!

HOpe you find the dog a great loving home!! That is the responsible thing to do if the dog hasn't done anything wrong. Is that what you mean by gone? Just post an ad for a home, who cares why...lots of people discard animals because of a new human family member. I don't think thats right, and the pound is never an option. But why bother with this thread...find the dog a home...geesh!

Really a good post.. Thanks for sharing this ,, Has any one who has posted the ignorant posts about pit bulls being pushed to extinction ever heard about the word GENOCIDE!!