The CW Source

Дин, конечно!

Dean.*__*

It is so difficult.I love Jensen.So I voted for him.

Oh whatever. If you think there was bullying, then I'm never going to convince anyone otherwise. Luckily my interest in this has waned so you don't have to hear from me again.

Go ahead and feel insulted. No one has explained to me how someone saying "Vote bibro!" is any different than "Vote Dean!" You can't call one bullying without the other. But if the context or whatever is just too much to overcome, then okay. Fine. I'm done. If you want to think my efforts are insincere or naive or stupid or manipulative or whatever, then that's your choice. I'm tired of trying to prove otherwise. I made my efforts and it seems they were in vain so my interest here is spent.

Sincerely, I hope you feel better about fandom and that the show starts making everyone a little happier.

Once again. If you look, you'll see that people were saying it was unfair to vote for one or the other, because they're a team. If you go to the semifinals post, you'll see someone railing against the blog for even considering posting a showdown between the two of them (I forget the words used, but it was harsh). People were sick of that. One person mentioned being annoyed with that, and suddenly it's the end of the freakin' world.

"that maybe no one was bullying anyone here"

How in any universe is this a compromise? It's only a compromise from people who felt offended (or rather, a total capitulation), whereas you get to sit back and say you were right... which may seem like a sweet deal to you, but since we saw bullying, of COURSE none of us are going to accept that. But, that makes us poor at compromise, because we disagree with you.

Fine idea of compromise you've got there. :P I'm totally, TOTALLY convinced that you just want peace and harmony. *rolls eyes*

I am very happy to bask in my childishness. I have always admitted to this being very immature to even partake in.

And you very nicely managed to call me both childish and hypocritical. Childish I deserve as much as anyone else going off about this crap. As for hypocritical, I think I've managed to get away from that. The use of insults--please note a few posts down where I apologize for the term being used at all. I've reached a better place. As for my martyr complex, maybe I'm just fishing for someone to tell me I'm wrong--or for someone on the other side to say it's NOT all the blame of Sam girls. To my memory, and I haven't checked, I don't think I've seen any admission or give from the other side, no matter how many times I try to play nice. Everyone seems more than happy to just let it be the Sam girls fault, which, yeah, kind of annoys me because blame goes all ways.

Really, in the end, the fact is BOTH sides have hurt feelings and we'd have to deconstruct the entire evolution of fandom to figure out how and why it started. That's the context everyone just needs to grasp. You can't lay the blame of this at Dean girls, Sam girls, bibro girls, Kripke, whoever. There's been misteps on all sides--so while maybe the initial over-sensitivity to innocuous comments can be understood in that context, it certainly doesn't excuse them, because in the grander scheme of things, this poll hadn't gone south.

So give context credit to everyone--not just those who you happen to side with. I've been trying to do that here, and trust me, it goes against my initial feelings. But yet still, I haven't seen anyone on the other side even willing to SHARE blame in this, or at least to say there was no need to freak out.

I guess I keep hoping someone here will even agree to that much, will agree that maybe Dean girls have some of the blame, that maybe no one was bullying anyone here, that maybe it sucks to sometimes be a Sam girl for a lot of reasons. We've all had our feelings screwed over from time to time in this fandom and you could cite your instances as easily as I could. I'd like to see this GO somewhere, come to a happier conclusion than just everyone walking away thinking how crappy the other side is or how fandom would be so much better if certain people would just shut up and leave. But maybe that's just me. So we could sit around and insult each other very subtly or not so subtly or we could actually try to UNDERSTAND each other.

So I'm not really trying to have the last word here because this isn't an argument to be won, necessarily. I just sincerely want to feel good about how fans are interacting with one another, if only on the level of this pointless poll thread.

"Again, this is a bald-faced lie. People didn't want to be told how to vote, or that they were bad people or unfair for voting a certain way, which is their absolute right. Why would you lie? Is it because you know you're wrong, and you can't win the argument by being honest?"

HEE! I'm a liar now, huh? So I'm a hypocrite, a controlling manipulator who wants to force Dean from the show and Dean girls from fandom, I'm the cause of all problems in fandom, AND I'm a liar. I am on SUCH a roll! Since clearly I have nothing better to do than to fabricate stories about a who's hotter poll in my free time. Yes. Of course. That's it.

OR, maybe, just maybe, it could be that I'm telling the truth. A few posts AFTER the freakout said something similar and they were not nice and I've said that many times and I've also said that they are as wrong as anything else here.

But at the time, when someone posted telling the bibro contingent to "stop pressurizing" no one had told anyone how to vote--in a real serious manner. I mean, there were "How can you choose?!" posts but they were along the exact same lines of "Dean of course!! He's way hotter!" Unless you're saying that those type of posts are telling people what to do, then no one was pressuring anyone.

No one was bullying. I'm not LYING. I'm looking at the posts and the progression of ideas and quite frankly, I have no idea what posts you're referring to that are bullying. If I remember correctly, two came AFTER the bullying accusation was made, but certainly not before it, which is why I'm harping on this so much. People were being called bullies when no bullying was happening. That's not fair. And it was groundless. Much like being called a liar when in fact you're not lying. It sort of makes you mad, just in principle, if you can imagine that.

I'm not lying, and would have no purpose lying over something as inane as this. And frankly, your accusation holds no ground until you can prove that bullying occured BEFORE the first "don't bully me post" came into play, then I have no reason to continue on like this because either you're not willing to go back and LOOK at the order or you're the one whose just desperate to win an argument. To your credit, I think it's the first.

***Heck yeah, this is all contextually based. And it's a difficult and deep context with lots of issues brewing on either side. ***

Actually I find it neither deep nor difficult to understand. It comes down to fans of two different characters/actors each showing their resentment for what they perceive to be the other guy getting more. Whether it's attention and popularity within fandom, story importance or character development, it's all about wanting more for their favorite guy. Quite natural and nothing wrong with that per se. The problem is when people start telling people on the other side that they are wrong to want more while insisting their guy is the only one that deserves more.

***No one has ever tried to ignore that--here or anywhere. It's impossible to be active in this fandom and pretend like you can ignore it. Doesn't change some things, though, and pinpointing where the crap started here does seem relevant to the extent of figuring out that context.
Self defense is a good way to describe things. Like when people defend against being called bullies for saying "Vote for both!" I mean, bullying?! Context or not, that's not bullying and it's really annoying to see it called that even when I didn't encourage anyone to vote that way.***

Again it depends on what side of the EDG line you've been pushed to for three years on whether you consider using peer pressure to try and convince people to vote a particular way bullying.

Personally I don't think this would even have become an issue if this hadn't already come up before - the Buddy TV poll springs to mind. And lets not forget the outraged rants on at least one SPN LJ community with people insisting that it was an outrage, just an outrage, that Dean always won all these polls and the call to SamGirl arms that came along with that.

***And if you want to believe that everyone was saying vote bibro and brow beating people, I guess that's your prerogative. It isn't any skin off my back, I suppose, so why do I care? Glutton for punishment, perhaps, or just sick and tired of being characterized as immature and wrong and insignificant and the source of all of fandom's problems.***

That's quite a martyr complex you've got going there. But if you're looking for a particular post to blame, then here ya go. It wasn't the initial let's all vote bibro so that fandom can be a happy place again posts. It was the one berating the CW Source for having the poll in the first place. That came several posts before anyone talked about peer-pressure or bullying. That was where things started to turn sour for me at least.

***Of course we're all going to disagree. That's so OBVIOUS. And I promise you, I don't care about that. I care about the way disagreements are handled. Someone should be able to say "Vote bibro" and not be told they're bullies. Someone should be able to say "Sam needs more characterization" without being told they're advocating the All Sam Show. Someone should be able to say "Dean needs more plot" without being called an Evil Dean Girl. It's not about agreement, it's about being a nice person, which I guess maybe isn't essential but really, doesn't it make life much nicer.***

No disagreement here but I don't see you practicing what you preach. However, in an effort to be nice I won't use the obvious word that springs to mind here.

***Possibly that's essentially what you're saying, but no one told the Dean girls they were a blight on the fandom (save maybe one or two posts LATER in the discussion--mostly after the bibro girls were told they were bullies trying to keep Dean from his true glory--context, like you say). And saying that simply perpetuates something that I don't think is a fair representation--just like Dean girls don't want to be called a blight, neither do Sam girls or bibro girls or ANYONE. So why wouldn't we expect someone to speak up against it? And why does only one group have the right to be offended?***

Hey speak up all you like, but it goes both ways so can't possibly expect people to sit back and take it. Which again I think is what has been going on for far too long and why this place exploded the way it did. Again context.

***Encouraging people to grow up works a little better when you've done it yourself.***

I know you are but what am I? Sorry but I'm just calling it like I see it.

Well I think I've said pretty much all that I need to say here, so feel free get the last word in if it makes you feel like you've won something. *g*

"mostly after the bibro girls were told they were bullies trying to keep Dean from his true glory"

Again, this is a bald-faced lie. People didn't want to be told how to vote, or that they were bad people or unfair for voting a certain way, which is their absolute right. Why would you lie? Is it because you know you're wrong, and you can't win the argument by being honest?

Heck yeah, this is all contextually based. And it's a difficult and deep context with lots of issues brewing on either side. No one has ever tried to ignore that--here or anywhere. It's impossible to be active in this fandom and pretend like you can ignore it. Doesn't change some things, though, and pinpointing where the crap started here does seem relevant to the extent of figuring out that context.

Self defense is a good way to describe things. Like when people defend against being called bullies for saying "Vote for both!" I mean, bullying?! Context or not, that's not bullying and it's really annoying to see it called that even when I didn't encourage anyone to vote that way.

And if you want to believe that everyone was saying vote bibro and brow beating people, I guess that's your prerogative. It isn't any skin off my back, I suppose, so why do I care? Glutton for punishment, perhaps, or just sick and tired of being characterized as immature and wrong and insignificant and the source of all of fandom's problems.

Of course we're all going to disagree. That's so OBVIOUS. And I promise you, I don't care about that. I care about the way disagreements are handled. Someone should be able to say "Vote bibro" and not be told they're bullies. Someone should be able to say "Sam needs more characterization" without being told they're advocating the All Sam Show. Someone should be able to say "Dean needs more plot" without being called an Evil Dean Girl. It's not about agreement, it's about being a nice person, which I guess maybe isn't essential but really, doesn't it make life much nicer.

Possibly that's essentially what you're saying, but no one told the Dean girls they were a blight on the fandom (save maybe one or two posts LATER in the discussion--mostly after the bibro girls were told they were bullies trying to keep Dean from his true glory--context, like you say). And saying that simply perpetuates something that I don't think is a fair representation--just like Dean girls don't want to be called a blight, neither do Sam girls or bibro girls or ANYONE. So why wouldn't we expect someone to speak up against it? And why does only one group have the right to be offended?

Encouraging people to grow up works a little better when you've done it yourself.

***There wasn't bullying--in fact, there was no conflict until the post by Anonymous on March 21 at 1:48. That's where I see it, anyway. I'm curious to know when you see it starting.***

Of course there was no conflict early on because everyone was agreeing that voting bibro was the right and just thing to do.

Then someone disagreed in a fairly mild way and then someone else agreed with that disagreement and suddenly the Sam/ bibro contingent were acting like they were under siege and fired back accusing people of being bad fans for not voting bibro.

The Deangirls then jumped in because they resented being told they were the blight on fandom yet again.

And I think that's a key fact that y'all keep overlooking. You act like all this is happening for the first time and in the vaccume
of this particular blog post. But this conflict is three years in the making with people on both side sucking it up and repressing their resentment for stuff that has been happening all over fandom. They just vented all that festering bile here.

But the biggest problem with this particular fandom is that people take even the smallest disagreement as a personal attack. Everyone must agree at all times otherwise squee is harshed and the world and fandom as we know it will end. It's stupid and immature. I mean seriously if some one doesn't buy your interpretation of the show, who cares? You watch the show for yourself and no one else and they are not the spawn of Satan because they like different things about the show.

If three people on your flist say Sam's puppy dog eyes do nothing for them, what is it to you? Maybe you don't think Dean's bow-legs are the best thing since hot buttered popcorn. It all evens out in the wash and you don't need to expend thousands of words explaining why the person who thinks differently from you is wrong and a quite possibly retarded and then act like they're writing hate speech when they don't agree with you.

Honestly people, time to grow the fuck up.

Really, I've read the comments a lot. The initial posts all were innocuous--encouraging benignly for either bibro, Dean or Sam. There's nothing different in saying "How can you choose?!" and saying "Dean all the way!!" They're innocent comments. No one was making particularly sympathetic appeals about the betterment of fandom until after the accusation of bullying came into play. Some bullying did occur AFTER the initial wank on BOTH SIDES. No one was trying to tell Dean girls they were awful for voting Dean. This bullying is not there. A few posts AFTER the anti-bibro thing came up did make bullying-ish statements, but for the most part, there was no reason for anyone to freak out about people saying "You can't choose! They're a team!" Not unless we think people saying "Dean is way hotter!" is subversive, too. Because, after all, how dare they suggest I vote for Dean! That's not where my true heart lies! STOP BULLYING ME!!

It's ridiculous, right? I mean, I think it is. I just think it is very not cool to say people were bullying when the outcry started well before anything remotely contentious was said. I mean the most contentious one I can even remotely see prior to the freak out was "No way can I chose both! They're a team!" which was present purely as personal opinion not fact.

There wasn't bullying--in fact, there was no conflict until the post by Anonymous on March 21 at 1:48. That's where I see it, anyway. I'm curious to know when you see it starting.

Well again it's funny, because that's what Sam fans have been begging for, too. It seems like divisions sprang up early, and a lot conflict has pitted the boys against each other. We can all talk about how and when we felt this shift, but the fact remains somewhat true: we've all had our qualms and it's a lack of being willing to understand the other side that proves problematic. Because we do take this crap way too seriously and feelings are easily hurt by things that we might take for granted. If I have to be honest, I've felt frustrated and alienated ever since S1 when the "Sam is selfish" thing became assumed as truth. So often arguments are reactionary and not complete reflection of real things. For example, I most often go off on the Dean HAS a storyline rant when Dean girls insist he has NO story and that Kripke is out to get them.

So I guess I think both sides have wanted the same thing and talked about it maybe amongst themselves but have no done as great a job at actually making peace with the other side. Because as someone on Sam's side, I really haven't seen this call very often. I hear about how Kripke hates Dean/JA, which to me doesn't imply anything about how they want the show balanced, just how they think JA is getting screwed.

And to be fair, most of my complaints in response have been well, look at SAM. I just don't respond well to the incessant Kripke hates Dean argument or the idea that the fandom is trying to suppress Dean girls. Those are conspiracy theories that seem more reactionary than helpful to me in so many ways. Which is how I started going off on all that here anyway. There were a good number of posts talking about the lack of Dean love from the writers and while I totally can see why you may not like the way it's being done, it IS there. Crappy, maybe. But there, yes. And to some extent if everyone else gets to bemoan the lack of Dean, sometimes I want to bemoan the lack of Sam :) Just to make myself feel better.

As for saying Dean's story needs more nuance, I meant this: I think Dean has a storyline, as has been argued (the same way that Sam has characterization). However, I can see how that storyline could be frustrating since it is not as explicitly tied to the story's action. Dean's storyline is one of personal growth, usually brought about by situation outside of him, or in reaction and growing understanding of his place in his family. I understand that Dean fans want to see Dean's storyline be more explicitly about HIM, in the sense that other character beyond Sam are concerned with him. I think this is possible, and I hope it happens for the betterment of fandom and the show.

And truthfully, I don't care much about Sam's story. It's Sam's character I think Sam girls feel slighted on overall. We crave good character moments and true heroic things from Sam--not some evil storyline that ignores everything that was developed in S1 and S2. I miss Sam's faith, his innocence, and feel like all we're seeing is a slide into darkness without much humanity in it. The show doesn't often call on us to empathize with Sam (some exceptions aside) and I so wish I could get more of that. Sam's character seems to lack some consistency and just depth overall in the quality of his dialogue and writing. And I promise, if we could trade Sam's storyline for Dean's depth of characterization, I would in a HEARTBEAT.

Nuance was a word used only to imply that characterization and plot exist for both boys. It might just not always be well done. Not that either doesn't have potential, but the fact is that this is a CW show and the writing reflects that.

"And I see more than anything else that we ALL want what's best for our guy and we'd probably be much better off arguing for BOTH better plot and characterization overall instead of just one or the other. In the end, we'd probably all be best served if they ditched the demon storyline and got us back to the brothers, putting them on equal footing in terms of plot and then hopefully also characterization. Perhaps that's the happy common ground I'm wanting to see this come to. Yes, Dean needs more plot. Yes, Sam needs more characterization. We're stronger when we AGREE on these than pitting ourselves (and our boys) against each other."

This is what Dean fans have been advocating, nay, BEGGING for, since season 1. I'm glad to see a Sam fan finally come to a similar conclusion, considering that every other time this has been suggested, it's been met with "Dean has a storyline! He's protecting Sam!" And then much banging my head against the wall in frustration ensued.

If you'd like me to say that I wish Sam's story had more nuance, I'll happily say that. I'm not sure what that means, exactly (any more than I understand how a non-plot can be not-nuanced... I don't really get what you're hoping for, when you wish that for Dean), but if you want it, I hope you get it.

"You can think the attempts at peacemaking ring hollow all you want. I'm making concessions here"

Except that you WEREN'T, which is why I said your attempts rang hollow. If I thought you were making any kind of concessions at all, I'd have respected it. For example, I respect I quoted above. That's a concession. That's actual peacemaking. The stuff about "I hope you can see how great Dean has been treated!"? Not so much.

"Eventually you'd think the whole world was against you."

Suddenly that just really amused me since it is mostly Dean girls who seem to think the world is against them. There's a difference, I think, in hoping for compromise and wanting people to not be true to themselves. Compromise, I would think, is a good thing, reached by mutual concessions for the betterment of the group. And it just seems like we could stand to use some compromise around here. Or you know, we could just self destruct and hope we end up in fandomwank.

By the way, I get along in life just fine. :) A little neurotic, but anyone posting this much on a whose hotter bracket is pretty much doomed from the start.

The first post of discord I can find is one that says that bibro girls are "pressurizing" people into voting against their true feelings. Prior to that, people said one of three things--"You can't choose!" or "Dean all the way!" or "Sam's way better!" All are the same type of statement said with no malice or underhanded manipulation. I don't see how encouragement to vote bibro is any different from encouragement to vote for Dean. Then people freaked out an accused bibro girls of using "peer pressure" and using that same "tactics" as they do throughout all of fandom to somehow try to suppress the Dean love.

THAT is not true. And even if I were to believe it's true fandom-wide, it wasn't true here, so no, I don't think I'm going to let that slide. No one wronged the Dean girls in the start of this thread and I honestly have looked pretty hard and can see no other way to look at it.

And yes--I've given the opposition, when actually supported with real evidence, some thought. Because I do believe, and I don't think I did before, that really Dean girls feel just as violated as Sam girls do. And so while I may not totally agree that Dean is plot-less, I do believe that Dean girls have some qualm to pick with the way the show is being run. I do notice that the long arguments that say that Dean does indeed get storyline are not actually responded to in and of themselves. Usually people pick up on some other little thing and don't totally address the argument at hand with more than "It's all JA's acting--KRIPKE HATES DEAN!!!!" But for the rest of the matter? I see it. Not that I agree with everything that's been said but I can see why Dean girls WANT it. Because we all want more for our guy. And I see more than anything else that we ALL want what's best for our guy and we'd probably be much better off arguing for BOTH better plot and characterization overall instead of just one or the other. In the end, we'd probably all be best served if they ditched the demon storyline and got us back to the brothers, putting them on equal footing in terms of plot and then hopefully also characterization. Perhaps that's the happy common ground I'm wanting to see this come to. Yes, Dean needs more plot. Yes, Sam needs more characterization. We're stronger when we AGREE on these than pitting ourselves (and our boys) against each other.

And that's creatively selective quoting. Look what is said AFTER the whole "I hope Dean girls can appreciate it." It goes on to say that I hope Kripke gives Dean's storyline more nuance. Which means I hope Kripke better writes Dean's storyline. In other words, that Dean gets more storyline. You can't just select certain parts of what's said. That's not exactly fair. In fact, it's nothing resembling fair.

And maybe capitulate is the wrong word. I think maybe it's more about being diplomatic about things. What's true about all this, is that it's bringing a lot of resentments to the surface--resentments not totally based in this thread. You can think the attempts at peacemaking ring hollow all you want. I'm making concessions here because I'd rather this come to an equitable close as opposed to someone finally just giving up out of sheer frustration with the other side.

Because we're NOT that different. And essentially we WANT the same things. Sometimes I do believe that compromise is the better way to go. It's not about not being true to oneself. Because if we all go on with that stubborn point of view, then really we'll just be a fandom divided for the rest of time. Won't we? Because I have a feeling that people will continual to tell me to stop whining about Sam, that Sam's a rotten guy, and to shut up because I don't do anything for fandom anyway. And all of that is then "okay" because that's how people feel? These are things still unapologized for, and, you know what, yeah, it DOES bother me. And no one cares AT ALL and are more concerned with telling me I'm wrong than building on what we agree on.

So it's not about saying you suddenly believe Dean's storyline is fine. And I guess if you truly think Sam's characterization is amazing and it goes against the very core of who you are to concede that maybe it's been shoddily done, well, then I guess I'd hate to be responsible for an internal ethical breakdown. So I guess that's that and if that's the sticking point we come to and you're not willing to entertain anything to the contrary, then so be it. Perhaps it is time for me to waste my breath (or rather my fingers) in more productive ways. You know, like in trying to subvert fandom in a hypocritical and maniacal way and plot to suppress the love of Dean everywhere.

"The wank began when someone accused bibro girls of trying to undermine Dean's dominance, accusing them of trying to circumscribe the Dean love. When in fact, that wasn't occurring."

Once again, I cannot remotely understand how you interpreted events this way. Read the posts below, and you'll see people saying things like "We can't let one of the Winchesters win, please vote for the third option." You'll see people talking about how it would be a political victory to show that we're a "united front" in thinking both guys are equally hot. You'll see people saying it's "unfair" to vote for one or the other, because they're "a team". (What being a team has to do with hotness is anybody's guess.) You'll see people saying that a vote for Dean is outright cruel to Sam because Sam has "had his face rubbed in the dirt enough"!

Then, someone suggested that it was weird to talk about something like this in terms of fairness or teamwork or fan politics, since it was just a poll about which brother you found hotter.

Then, people agreed that the bullying attitude of "pretend to be bi-bro even if you're not" in fandom was pretty ridiculous and alienating.

So, if we're gonna talk about "who started it" (and what is this, anyway, kindergarten?), I'd say the bullying began when people couldn't STAND to see other people voicing their preferences, then continued with people rejecting that bullying, then continued ad nauseum with Samgirls denying there was any intent to bully in the first place.

And I don't see much flexibility in that.

That's an interesting way to look at how the conflict began. The wank began when someone accused bibro girls of trying to undermine Dean's dominance, accusing them of trying to circumscribe the Dean love. When in fact, that wasn't occurring. The backlash against that was just to point out that those initial suggestions had no ulterior motives and weren't actually condemnations. It was a Dean girl freakout, and I guess I just don't see much flexibility in that. I get riled when people point fingers at people who have done nothing wrong and then act like the world is against them. It isn't, and this thread was perfectly diplomatic until their freakout.

"This entire thing STARTED because people were telling bibro girls they were essentially terrible people for not wanting Dean to win."

Huh. Now, this is just a flat-out lie. This entire thing started because someone said it was ridiculous to make "sympathy" votes, or to insist that people vote for both instead of actually saying what they think. But, you know. Nice try.

"Quite frankly, the term used or not, no one here has given any of my arugments any consideration, so I'm not sure there's any lost ground--just a new argument :)"

Can you honestly say that you've given the opposite arguments any consideration?

"Meeting me half way is not just saying that I hope I can see how fleshed out Sam is, but hoping for more characterization for him as well, just like I'll be willing to argue for better storyline for Dean."

I wished for you what you wished for me. If you didn't think that wish was sufficient, maybe you should take a closer look at your own. Here is what you said:

"I hope that they can see and appreciate Dean's storyline"

If that's what you wish for me, and you see that as meeting me halfway, then my wishes for you would be equally a concession... that you be able to appreciate what has been given to Sam.

"You don't have to agree with me about Sam's characterization or Dean's storyline but some capitulating goes a long way."

I'm not sure why I should capitulate, when I disagree with you. Or why you should capitulate, if you disagree with me. (Speaking of, I've seen you do absolutely nothing of the kind, so your "poor peacemaker me, won't someone do as I do?" rhetoric rings pretty hollow.) I think Sam's been wonderfully characterized. I think Dean has no place in the story beyond what he can do for Sam. These things seem self-evident to me, and I can't just *pretend* to think otherwise because it makes you feel better. I can be nice to you in the saying of it, I can say that it doesn't make anybody a bad person just because things are this way, but I can't and won't LIE about how I feel. That's not worth it.

I can only be true to myself and my perceptions. Doing so in and of itself is not being "mean" to people who perceive things differently, which seems to be what you're saying. If you really cannot handle the fact that people are going to disagree with you in life, and if you perceive disagreement as some sort of insult to you personally... ack. I just don't know how anyone can go through life that way. Eventually you'd think the whole world was against you.

"In fact, no one got riled at all when Sam girls or bibro girls were slandered left and right here."

Oh please. SamGirls have been riled up since someone suggested that voting bibro just so that Dean wouldn't win was a wanky thing to do.

That's what started this whole mess in the first place.

But I do agree it has been cathartic...and a lot like a game of ping-pong. Good times.

Of course people are going to get edgy when insults start flying. Why do you think this got started in the first place? People have been insulting/belittling the bibro/Sam contigent here mercilessly since the conflict started. And I notice no one blinks twice at that. So goes the way of fandom.

I've argued Dean's plot time and again. And actually I've already fleshed out Sam's characterization. So, no. I don't need it done.

And positive feedback? How about meeting half way? Meeting me half way is not just saying that I hope I can see how fleshed out Sam is, but hoping for more characterization for him as well, just like I'll be willing to argue for better storyline for Dean. It would also be nice to hear that Sam girls are important to fandom, that Sam isn't a terrible brother, that JP is a good actor, that Sam girls are not by default hypocritical self-centered jerks who are trying to squelch Dean girls. There have been so few negative comments from Sam girls on this thread and I readily say they're all in bad taste. That's why I've talked about how great Dean is because I KNOW that feels good to hear. Well, I don't really know it, because no one talks about much except how Sam hogs everything and is evil. You can think it's couched rhetorical all you want, I'm trying to build your guy up. And all I'm getting for my troubles is the growing sense that I don't have a brain and should disappear entirely because I don't do anything important for the show anyway except terrorize people.

In the end, this isn't just about storylines and characterization. It's about how fans value each other and the other characters. Not once on this thread have I felt validated as a fan of JP/Sam. You may then say the reverse is true as well, but I'll say it again--Dean's a great character. Jensen's a good actor. And Dean girls ARE vital to the fandom and no one would ever try to argue differently. But the fact that I feel utterly marginalized half the time sets me off on these anonymous rants that simply waste my time and rally people against me. So maybe I started this just to be a pain in the butt. Maybe I started it because I'm tired of seeing Dean girls win every argument without contest. But now that we're here, really, I think it's just that I want someone to say I'm not a fanatical hypocrite who should bow down and thank my lucky stars Dean girls are around.

You don't have to agree with me about Sam's characterization or Dean's storyline but some capitulating goes a long way.

And wow. I didn't see that coming out. I'm just going to post before I reread it and realize I'm an idiot. Though really I'm half expecting to be told I am anyway.

Cathartic is good :) I must admit, I feel much the same way, and it is funny how many Anonymouses we have going on here so I have no idea how many people are actually IN the discussion/argument/fanwank session.

Labels are labels. Call me an EJPG. It's what people have been basically calling me from the beginning anyway (though really, I prefer ESG, or actually ESP--Evil Sam Person, since some males feel this way, so if you're going to insult me, you might as well make me smile when you do). And the behavior I'm pointing toward is from earlier in the thread where Sam girls are flatly called hypocrites and crazy. Sure, there was no label used, but the insult carried the same weight and lacked the same depth as the term EDG.

I'm all for getting rid of stupid insults in fandom, just like I'm all for getting rid of blanket insults with no backing behind them. Demonizing has gone on on both sides here, and I'm more than willing to stay clear of EDG either way because it's not respectful. But neither is half of what has been said against Sam girls here (or in the rest of fandom) and no one blinks twice at it. This entire thing STARTED because people were telling bibro girls they were essentially terrible people for not wanting Dean to win. In fact, no one got riled at all when Sam girls or bibro girls were slandered left and right here. But the use of EDG brings has people up in arms. This would be part of why I feel like Dean's fans definitely are in control of fandom. Quite frankly, the term used or not, no one here has given any of my arugments any consideration, so I'm not sure there's any lost ground--just a new argument :)

So really invalidation exists on all sides here, not that any of this has any validity whatsoever since we're all hiding behind guises of anonymity.

Nevertheless, it was never my intention to insult anyone here nor was it my intention to actually call anyone an EDG, but the term came up contextually in terms of understanding fandom dynamics. There won't be a retraction, but an apology--sure. I'm sorry for the use of the term and I hope quite sincerely it can be put aside.

"I've made the case of how Dean's character is more consistently written and given a great deal of character depth and how he has very real plots."

I must have missed the "plots". Would you remind me?

"No one here has effectively argued how compelling Sam's storyline is, or how good of a character Sam is."

Effectiveness is in the eye of the beholder. (For example, in no way do I find your arguments about Dean's alleged "plots" to be effective... they were ineffective enough that I can't recall them at all.)

I will argue, however, that Sam has been thoroughly characterized, and is every bit as deep and complex as Dean is. Would you like me to detail Sam's evolution from season one?

"So really, in the end, I'm willing to say I get how a Dean girl must feel frustrated and I hope that they can see and appreciate Dean's storyline--better yet, that Kripke gives it a bit more nuance (because love or hate Kripke, his show is not usually refined). Because I would love for you all to be happy and clearly you aren't. ...

I just wish that I could hear the same back the other way every now and then."

Consider it done. I can see where a Sam girl might feel frustrated, and I hope that you can come to appreciate the depth of characterization Kripke has given to Sam, because he's a fully-fleshed out character with an impressive amount of plot and story.

***I've made the case of how Dean's character is more consistently written and given a great deal of character depth and how he has very real plots. None of that is a happy casting accident, but rather lots of time and effort from a writing crew.***

***What should be really obvious is that there are hurt feelings on both sides. The way to fix it? For both sides to grow up and learn to empathize with the other side and not continually belittle the other fans or the other fan's character or actor. I've made every effort to be respectful to other people here and have done nothing but validate Dean. I haven't really gotten much positive back. ***

Yes and others have made the case that Dean is a secondary to Sam within the framework of Kripke's five-year mythology and that Sam is not nearly as deprived of character as some of you insist. Not sure what your point is except that I suspect by positive feedback you mean we should admit that your opinion is the only true and correct one. Neither side is going to do that so maybe you should stop characterizing disagreement as disrespect. That's not very respectful now is it?

***So yeah, I don't have much pity for someone who says how mean the EDG label is and then creates one of his/her own. Kind of shoots oneself in the foot in terms of the idea that people shouldn't use negative terms when you create your own and then take the time to explain it. Evilness exists on both sides. The key is to be above it. But maybe we're not there yet here.***

After you write hundreds of words trying to justify the use of the EDG label, do you really expect anyone slapped with that label to just agree with you? I notice you didn't much care for the EJPG label that I came up with. Not so much fun to rationalize when the shoe's on the other foot now is it?

Y'all bray about respecting Sam as a character and SamGirl opinions but you do not do the same for DeanGirls even if the "discussion" is couched in polite and allegedly respectful language. The motivation comes through loud and clear. If someone holds a particular perspective that is different from yours, it's OK to call them an EDG. Why anyone is shocked when that makes people bitchy and irritated is a complete mystery to me.

But I have to admit this entire discussion has been extremely cathartic since I've repressed so many of these thoughts for so long. Thanks for that. :)

Actually, Anonymous, it was used by the first Anonymous (who was perhaps you, perhaps not) as a valid term. It was said that arguments of the type being exhibited was the reason for the term's usage... ie, the term was valid, and justified by the statements of that Anonymous's debate partners.

Justification of name-calling is, in itself, an invalidation of the arguments that the justifier is making. Period. I give everyone respect right up until the moment they squander their rights to it. Using a term like EDG, defending its usage, explaining why it is justified, and attempting to say "You're no better, because you disagreed with me about such and such"... these things all destroy the respect I may have had for my discussion partner.

Frankly, you (or the previous Anonymous) never should have tried to use EDG to bolster your arguments in the first place. If you (or the previous Anonymous) would like to retract it, I'd be happy to get back to actual discussion about characterization and story structure. I think it will be more productive and interesting than the name-calling (or repetition of my disdain for the name-calling) could ever be.

There may not be a term to dehumanize Sam girls, though look back through the posts and clearly blind accusations are being made against people without the use of a term. As in, generalizations that all Sam girls are crazy hypocrites who are trying to steal the show. These type of comments are equal to that of someone using the term EDG and yet no one seems to be able to call them on such inflammatory language against people who are actually being quite rational and calm in their arguments. Respect is a two-way street, and I haven't seen a lot of it here directed at the viewpoints of people who don't hold the belief that Dean is the best and should be made the central character of the show.

Again, not saying it makes EDG right, I'm just saying the outcry is a little one-sided here. I'm all for respect, but it's BOTH sides who need to be growing up here. Not just one. I don't think anyone actually used the term EDG in a derogatory manner here--it has merely been discussed as a fandom phenomenon, unlike the nasty comments made about Sam girls at large.

EDG is a term used by people who have run out of good arguments. It's basically a way to invalidate your debate opponent by calling them names... an ad hominem attack.

When someone I'm talking to uses that term, I lose all respect for that person and their points. I have never, as a person who has occasionally been called an EDG by Sam fans, felt the need to call THEM names. I dislike their attitude toward me, but I've never sat around and tried to come up with some nasty little moniker I can pin on them to try and invalidate their argument.

Thinking about it, that's probably because the people who use the term EDG do an awfully good job of destroying their own arguments without any assistance from me.

EDG is a term probably used a wide variety of context by a number of people. I see it most often in response to Dean girls who glorify Dean at the expense of Sam. In other words, the ones who talk about how Sam doesn't value his brother, how Sam doesn't deserve Dean as a brother, how Sam is a selfish SOB and how the show just needs to stop focusing on him. The general idea that Sam does nothing right--ever--grows wearisome for some fans. And I think the point with the term is not to group all Dean girls into that group, but rather to section of the extremist viewpoint that does not seem to characterize the majority.

Again, not saying it's a nice thing to say, just explaining. Not that it'll probably do anything but make more people mad. As per usual.

This is a totally pointless argument. Completely. If people are going to believe that Kripke set out to make Dean the scum of the earth and elevate Sam to amazingness, then there is nothing anyone will ever say to the contrary. I think it's a very narrow view that ignores most of what the show presents and a great deal of what Kripke himself says. We hear what we want to hear, I suppose, and I've wasted enough time trying to convince people to the contrary. I've made the case of how Dean's character is more consistently written and given a great deal of character depth and how he has very real plots. None of that is a happy casting accident, but rather lots of time and effort from a writing crew. And summaries from any site are very misleading--they rarely accurately reflect what is the focus of an ep.

The point of the chicken and the egg is merely this--we can't say for sure who started it. What should be really obvious is that there are hurt feelings on both sides. The way to fix it? For both sides to grow up and learn to empathize with the other side and not continually belittle the other fans or the other fan's character or actor. I've made every effort to be respectful to other people here and have done nothing but validate Dean. I haven't really gotten much positive back.

So yeah, I don't have much pity for someone who says how mean the EDG label is and then creates one of his/her own. Kind of shoots oneself in the foot in terms of the idea that people shouldn't use negative terms when you create your own and then take the time to explain it. Evilness exists on both sides. The key is to be above it. But maybe we're not there yet here.

And wow, I really have to agree to disagree on TWoP. I lurk there A LOT. I know that site and it is decidedly driven by Dean girls. Any minor criticism Dean may incur is immediately beat down. Sam girls are afraid of that place and many have left never to return.

So really, in the end, I'm willing to say I get how a Dean girl must feel frustrated and I hope that they can see and appreciate Dean's storyline--better yet, that Kripke gives it a bit more nuance (because love or hate Kripke, his show is not usually refined). Because I would love for you all to be happy and clearly you aren't. Dean's a great character with great depth and his fans are well earned.

I just wish that I could hear the same back the other way every now and then. Not "Oh I love Sam, too." Or "JP's improved so much!" (which is a hugely backhanded compliment). No one here has effectively argued how compelling Sam's storyline is, or how good of a character Sam is. Mostly I've heard, "Sam gets too much attention from Kripke!" and "Sam girls don't realize how lucky they are that Dean girls keep the show going." Well. Great. I should really just get out of this fandom before I feel any more insignficant than I already do.

***If that were the case and Dean was only there to gape at his brother, he wouldn't have had his big damn hero moment in AHBL2. Nor would we see such development of his character throughout all the seasons, culminating in the very important DALDOM.***

Well it looks like that very important bit of character development is to be completely forgotten soon enough according to one of the upcoming CW episode summaries. That's the problem with Dean not being integral to Kripke's five-year master i.e. Sam's Campbellian heroe's journey. Those amazing bits of character development for Dean ultimately mean nothing if they don't service Sam's plot.

***Dean's essential to the plot and to the show's emotional resonance.****

We he certainly is to me but I think that's a happy accident of casting rather than by Kripke's grand design.

***"EDG is probably not a very nice term.*** Nope it isn't. But whatever. I've got my own version. EJPG. That's right folks the evil Jared Padelecki Girl. She can't abide even the mildest questioning that JP may not a soul so perfect that he does indeed fart rainbows and sparkes. And if anyone should suggest otherwise she immediately tries to deflect the negative attention away from JP by screeching every single unflattering and generally unconfirmed rumor that has ever circulated about Jensen Ackles. The EJPG is indeed a creature of rare subtlety, or you know, not. At least these alleged EDG's are only talking about fictional characters. Not so with the EJPGs.

"On TWoP? Dean is like GOD on that site. There are very few threads there that a Sam girl even dares venture on for fear of her own sanity."

I have to disagree with you about this. Dean is belittled and criticized a lot on TWoP.

"EDG is probably not a very nice term."

Ya' think? No, it is not a nice term, not at all; it's an insult. This phrase is used to try and invalidate arguments made by individuals just because they support Dean. By calling someone an "Evil Dean Girl", people are trying to invalidate an individual's reasonings and statements and make it sound like there is a hive-like mentality and therefore, the individual poster's arguments should not be taken seriously.

In my opinion, your "chicken" and "egg" statement is correct.

"I think it would be bandied around far less if more sensitivity was given to Sam's character."

I disagree, I think Sam fans love to throw that phrase around, whether it's true or not, at least on TWoP, and that especially includes the recapper (and former moderator). I also don't know what you want when you say "more sensitivity" when talking about Sam. More sensitivity to what? Kripke has presented Sam as the one we're supposed to sympathize with since the Pilot episode.

For godsakes people it was just a hottie contest. How are we still debating who is the better brother. For the record neither IMO is. I love them both!

On TWoP? Dean is like GOD on that site. There are very few threads there that a Sam girl even dares venture on for fear of her own sanity.

For clarification: the term EDG is not used against people who interpret the story differently. It's used to classify a general attitude wherein Sam is demeaned in light of Dean. Nothing Sam can do is ever enough for his brother in the minds of some factions of the fandom. Nothing Sam does is ever right in some factions of the fandom. This is what elicits the term--people don't like to hear their character bashed and when it comes to Sam's character, it is a consistent thing, which is what some Sam girls get frustrated with.

EDG is probably not a very nice term. I think it would be bandied around far less if more sensitivity was given to Sam's character. Doesn't make it right to use, but I'm offering a clarification, not an endorsement of usage. Undoubtedly, this could become a chicken and the egg argument were it is stated that Sam wouldn't be slandered if Sam girls didn't use the term, but in the end that's a pointless pursuit to go into.

And Kripke's original idea was actually far different from anything else. The evolution of the show started in a totally different direction with a journalist, I believe. It was only through much revision and reprocessing that Kripke hit upon the notion of FAMILY, which is what he finally went with as the concept of the show, much to his benefit.

And honestly, Kripke can talk all about about his intentions or what he thinks or wants or whatever. The main thing I know is that I've seen the show. A lot. And Dean is in no way secondary to Sam except in some demonic hierarchy, and even that has hints of it not being the case--clearly someone wants Dean's soul and we still don't know how or why yet. It may indeed be a ploy to get Sam or it may indeed have something to do with Dean himself. It doesn't matter. The key arc to this show has always been the familial bond and how Sam and Dean interact with each in that familial structure.

I don't recall Dean ever admitting that Sam was always right--nor do I see evidence that Sam is always "right" in the context of the show. If anything, S1 was about proving Sam WRONG. Both boys have come a long way in how they view things, and ultimately they've both come to reinforce the standards their father put out there for them about the value of hunting. If you also listen to Kripke, he says that Sam's greatest weakness right now is the fact that he's making excuses for himself. Hence--Sam is NOT right, in fact Sam is on track to be very wrong.

Dean is shown again and again to be a hero. Kripke can conceptualize all he wants to, but when push comes to shove and episodes are written, it is Dean who is the emotional touchpoint and he is often the heroic one. Even with Sam's morality as it was in S1 and S2, Dean was more often than not "right." Sam's "rightness" is almost in theory only, and he is shown to lack a certain reality when it comes to what must be done as a hunter. When he finally gets to that point in S3, he does so without humanity or compassion for the most part. Dean, however, is the one who we get to see struggling, thus making him our identifiable hero.

Blame is always a two-way street, and that's key. But this sense of I'm going to do it because they do is not helpful. I won't belittle Dean at any point, at least not in a public way. My own issues with characters is my own thing, but as far as unity of fandom goes, it's not helpful to sit and talk about how much I hate this about Dean or how much I hate this about what Dean does because it's only going to hurt the feelings of others. It's stupid, but we all, to some extent, must know it's true. It hurts us when our favorite is belittled. And maybe I'm blind to it, but Sam gets a LOT more crap in fandom that Dean EVER has. Again I point out, Dean is the selfless heroic one, while Sam is the selfish bastard, and very few people even have the guts to argue to the contrary. For a Sam girl, that sucks. I don't condone blind bashing of Dean either, and anyone who does that should be ashamed.

Dean has done so much more than gape at his brother's powers. Dean's been the active one of the two throughout all the seasons. He's been the one to take action, to do things, to make decisions. If anyone has been the passive bystander, it's been Sam. I have argued repeated how this isn't the Sam Show and how it's not being created to be the Sam show. Dean's connection to the story is just as important if not more important than Sam's because he IS the emotional center of the show. I do not believe for one second that Kripke has decided to make it only about Sam. If that were the case and Dean was only there to gape at his brother, he wouldn't have had his big damn hero moment in AHBL2. Nor would we see such development of his character throughout all the seasons, culminating in the very important DALDOM. Dean's essential to the plot and to the show's emotional resonance. If that doesn't prove that Kripke wants Dean to be a hero, too, then I really don't know what is. Dean IS a hero. Kripke made him one, not just said it. And if he's not a hero, then why does everyone think he's heroic? Even good acting couldn't pull that off.

The show and Kripke have been more than fair to Dean and Jensen. The theory that Kripke hates Dean just doesn't make sense.

As I see it if Dean wasn't there to care and worry over Sam and be there at his every beg and call the fans would hate Dean. I love Dean because he's the underdog of the two.

If Kripke wasn't such a stickler for his "Sam the boyking hero", he could actually improve the story by making it about two heroes instead of one. Yeah, he said Dean's a hero. So is Bobby, so was John, so is Ellen, so was Gordon in his own way, Henriksen, and the list goes on. But Sam is the story.

This was promoted as the story of Two Brothers on One Journey. That's what drew me in. Now Kripke has made it the story of One Hero's Journey. Well, I guess I picked the wrong brother, therefore the wrong hero so now I'm stuck watching the story of Sam and hoping that Dean at least gets something decent to do besides gape in awe as his brother "becomes" this extraordinary being that will enthrall us all.

Whatever Kripke. Your seem to be very rigid in your ideas, which, as a writer, really makes for disappointing storytelling.

I will watch for Dean, but superheros bore me to death. That would include Demon Kings/Anti-Christs.

The italics didn't come through in my post below, so I'm clarifying my remarks:

"The fact that Dean girls feel like they need to belittle Sam to even some "score" is truly part of the reason fandom is divided. I hardly ever see anyone criticizing Dean, though I'm sure you'll all tell me oh so nicely to the contrary. I was feeling optimistic about the direction of this thread, but now not so much."

My response to the above post:

Just as you say that some Dean fans belittle Sam, some Sam fans belittle Dean. The blame for any division in this fandom does not fall on just one side.

Dean is *constantly* being belittled and criticized on television without pity. Yes, there are Dean supporters on that site, but there are also many who criticize him.

The fact that Dean girls feel like they need to belittle Sam to even some "score" is truly part of the reason fandom is divided. I hardly ever see anyone criticizing Dean, though I'm sure you'll all tell me oh so nicely to the contrary. I was feeling optimistic about the direction of this thread, but now not so much.

Just as you say that some Dean fans belittle Sam, some Sam fans belittle Dean. The blame for any division in this fandom does not fall on just one side.

Dean is *constantly* being belittled and criticized on television without pity. Yes, there are Dean supporters on that site, but there are also many who criticize him.

If the focus of the show is family, then really all either boy is really important for is being the other's brother. For being special, no one actually cares that much about Sam on the show. The demon spent most of his time talking to Dean or about Dean than he did Sam.

Sam's "powers" do not make Dean a sidekick. Sidekicks don't get the character depth Dean gets. Sam is not the star of the show. The show could equally be seen as one brother's struggle to protect his brother--making Dean the central emotional point and Sam the tangential subject. The deal storyline has done far more to explore Dean's character than Sam's--with Sam, we see him "going dark" without much insight into his brain (we get a small glimpse in MM and clearly in MS). For Dean? We've seen him trying to cover it up and then his slow unraveling of that forged confidence, which occurs in M7, TKAA, and then so on throughout the season, finally coming to a head in DALDOM where Dean had a huge turning point in his character and it was full pay off for what the deal storyline made vividly clear in AHBL2, that Dean has self-esteem issues. This all has been brewing since the first season, with Dean's obedience to his father and his naive desire to bring his family back together. This is a HUGE PLOT that has clearly drawn in TONS of people, which is why so many people are drawn to Dean. This has all be written and crafted for Dean, and drawn out far more consistently and with far more grace (though not flawless) than Sam's evil storyline. In this context, it is Dean's storyline that has anchored the show, and Sam's storyline, his powers, his "chosen one" status--all of it, merely serves to further explore DEAN and create the sympathetic position that is Dean's. You can love Jensen's acting all you want, but he has stuff to work with. It's not great writing by any stretch of the imagination, but it's there and it's far easier to work that than Sam's coldness, often without any exploration, this season.

As for Sam's emotional arc? It's harder to trace and pulled through with much less nuance than Dean's. We see Sam oscillate between disliking the hunting life to being gung ho in S1--arguably over his grief for Jess (which, ask Sam girls, and I think they were hoping for more--Provenance aside, his girlfriend died and we didn't get anything resembling a breakdown). Much more in S1 was his understanding and acceptance of his family's lifestyle, learning to understand where his brother and father came from and with John's death ultimately that hunting is his choice now, with no sense of if he regrets leaving or not (and don't even mention to Sam girls the sudden disappearance of Sam's daddy issues). The rest of S2 revolved around Sam's "destiny" in which he progressed from "What if I'm evil?" to "I think I'm evil" to "I'm evil Dean, kill me." I suppose you could call this character development, but Sam's dialogue was so choppy and random and so often even Sam's episodes and feelings gave the emotional contact to Dean--as in, in Playthings we see Sam's fears come to light, yet the overwhelming sentiment is from Dean's POV where he is forced to promised his beloved brother something he can't do. HotH is as much about Sam's faith as it is Dean's, and it's Dean who gets the emotional revelation of the episode. And even Heart, which is very Sammy based, in the end is given to Dean through the last shot, making it again about Dean not being able to protect his brother from such things. Sam's character development is secondary to Dean's more often than not (some exceptions aside).

If you want to say Kripke's not pandering to Dean girls, fine. Just don't say he's pandering to Sam girls, because he's not. He's working his own agenda and he's neither a Sam girl or a Dean girl. We'd all be better off saying, "You know, I never realized you felt that way. The other brother really is amazing and he deserves more time. Let's work together to glorify and support both brothers, and Kripke really is letting us ALL down." I'm willing to play nice if others will, and you won't see me bashing Dean ever. I'm all for getting rid of Sam's powers altogether and taking us back to two brothers, hunting things and figuring each other out.

"Sam's main role is as Dean's brother and I don't think that makes him pathetic."

That is Sam's main role? Really? I... just don't understand how you can say that with a straight face. Sam's main role is to be the reason all this is happening, as well as the executor of the plot. He's the Boy King. He's the Anti Christ. He's the reason for the entire series, Kripke's avatar (as he has said more than once), the protagonist.

"And really, how does Sam going evil set him up to be a hero?"

Again, I'm not really sure if you're being serious or disingenuous here, because it's so completely obvious and cliched. Sam gets superpowers. Sam goes "evil" (read: beige) with the superpowers, then turns his back on the temptation to go REALLY evil, and uses his superpowers to save his hapless brother and the world in one fell swoop, becoming the Hero he was always born to be. What else do you suppose Kripke intends to do with Sam, on his Hero's Journey (which Kripke has also alluded to several times)? Sam's on the hero's journey here, not Dean. Dean's just kinda along for the ride, facilitating Sam's progression to Ultimate Heroism.

"I'm just saying--the conspiracy theory that Kripke created a character just to hate him makes no sense to me"

I don't think he hates him, per se. Dean's based on his brother, and I doubt he hates his brother. But Dean is an addition, a side note to Sam's Heroic Journey. If you read Kripke's original conceptions of these characters, Dean was the screwup to Sam's Mr. Perfect. Dean was always wrong, and Sam was always right, even when it didn't make sense (ie, Dean chose hunting, and Sam chose school, right? Yet, Dean admits Sam was always right and hunting is worthless. Then, he attempts to abandon people in peril while Sam gets on his moral high horse to tell him they must stay and help the innocent victims... even though Sam is the one who wanted to stop helping innocent victims in the first place! It makes no sense! And yet, Sam is The Hero, and Dean is The Sidekick, and so Sam must always be right.)

Essentially, Dean is there to serve Sam's story. He's not there to move the story in his own right, the way Sam is. If that makes me an EDG, well. That's your label, not mine. And it's pretty revolting to me that you label people that way for analyzing a story differently than you do. That's something Sam fans tend to do... ad hominem attacks are you all's specialty, it seems... but it massively weakens your arguments.

"I think Kripke's pandered often to Dean girl's complaints, because they are loudest and most commonly heard, I would just suggest he hasn't done it very well."

How has Kripke pandered to the DeanGirls? We've bee bitching about how they were dumbing Dean down since the middle of season one. So what do we got in Season 3? More dumbDean than ever.

We've been begging for Dean to have some importance to the story besides just being Sam' brother. So what do we get in season 3? Several reiterations of it's all about Sam.

We've been saying making Sam Speshul and Chosen and having powers turns Dean into a sidekick. So what do we get in Season 3? Sam is elevated to the level of boyking anti-christ.

Meanwhile SamFans complain that he doesn't get enough character development and the pretty much the entire deal story-line is handed over to exploring Sam's character.

So I'm not seeing a lot of DeanFan pandering from this end of the great divide.

Wow. Okay then. Sam admits he's wrong quite often--he did in Bugs, he did in Asylum, the fact that he totally abandoned the idea of college, the end of ELAC, etc. I could go on. But we all see what we want to see in the end.

Sam's weaknesses maybe aren't as commonly explained on screen, but that would be part of the lack of characterization. They don't explore Sam's weaknesses because in general they're not doing as much for his character. They have demons calling Dean out on his dependency on his family this season to spur along his realization in DALDOM. It all goes somewhere, and it's not like we should take the word of demons as God's honest truth.

If you choose to see WIAWSN as a sign that Kripke thinks Dean's worthless, then I guess I'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

I really don't get how Dean's role as Sam's brother is pathetic. Sam's main role is as Dean's brother and I don't think that makes him pathetic. And really, what has Sam done to show his heroism? He had one moment of action (or inaction) in AHBL 1 that cemented who he was--Dean got every other heroic action. Dean was the one to save his family. Dean was the hero in all of that storyline revolving around the YED. That's DEAN. Not Sam. No matter how much it was "all about Sam" the demon was far more concerned with Dean in the end--it's more than snippets from demonic dialogue. It's what we see in the show, whose feelings we get to experience (Dean's more than Sam's most of the time). And really, how does Sam going evil set him up to be a hero? The way it seems to be going, Dean will have to save his brother from himself, thus making DEAN the hero, not Sam. Sam going darkside to save Dean is not heroic. Nor is it what Sam girls want.

Isn't the thing we love most about these two is their utter screwed up codependency? That they hinge totally on each other? That whatever one does, the other does? Sam's all about Dean and Dean's all about Sam and that's why we love to explore their relationship so much. It's not diminishing either boy. And it could be "all about Dean" and I'd still think that was the draw. Give us emotional depth to each boy, and the show will be golden. Plots don't make people love shows. Characters do. And Dean's character is being thoroughly explored. I could care less about the whole demon plot. The whole war is boring anyway. Give me character moments.

And that's the thing. Sam girls haven't been crying out for lots and lots of evil Sam. Some, maybe, but a majority miss the little brother we met in S1. We've lost him entirely for this dark, brooding, morally questionable blob that sits counter to Dean's morality.

No Sam girl here has argued that Dean go away. At all. That's a figment of your imaginations that you keep flinging around angry and going off on rants about. We want a show about brothers. Supposedly we all do. We just think there are different ways of getting there.

And, by the way, no one admitted to it being a shell of a storyline. Read the sentence. "You can call it a shell of a storyline" does not say the poster necessarily agrees that it is.

If people are going to persist and think that Kripke hates Dean and that only by Jensen's amazing skills is Dean anything at all, then really, no one will every convince you otherwise. But that attitude, right there, is what earns the EDG fanatical title. I'm just saying--the conspiracy theory that Kripke created a character just to hate him makes no sense to me and I still don't know of a time when he's come out and seriously said, "I think Dean is a terrible character. His only value is to juxtapose Sam." Kripke doesn't hate Dean. He doesn't hate Jensen. But if that's the sticking point, then it is, and I'm not going to go back and forth and argue with people who aren't actually trying to see the other side of things or be remotely rational.

The fact that Dean girls feel like they need to belittle Sam to even some "score" is truly part of the reason fandom is divided. I hardly ever see anyone criticizing Dean, though I'm sure you'll all tell me oh so nicely to the contrary. I was feeling optimistic about the direction of this thread, but now not so much.

****Sam's wonderfulness is reinforced over and over and over. It's a big part of the reason why I find it necessary to point out his flaws... because no one in the show ever seems to call him on his crap, whereas Dean is called on his all.the.freaking.time. ***

So much freakin' word on this. I f I have to hear one more time how smart/strong/wonderful Sam is and how dumb/weak/useless Dean is from another character on the show, I will scream bloody murder.

***It seems to me that the reason he created the whole "deal" was in response to the outcry for more Dean plot.***

Well it seems to me that the whole point of Dean's deal was so that Sam could go darkside.

"The thing is, most Sam girls see Dean as already integral to the plot"

Of course they do. And most Dean girls see Sam as already having a great deal of characterization. The point being...?

"He's saying Dean in another world could have been much less than he is in reality."

Yes. Because in this reality, he had hunting. There is nothing intrinsic to Dean that makes him a decent person, according to Kripke. It's all nurture, no nature.

"Sam is the one who will admit wrong (usually) and Dean is the one who comes out looking right and rosy"

Would you be referring to the time Dean said Sam was stronger than him? Or that he admired him for standing up to John, and wished he could be more like Sam? Or when Dean said Sam was more moral than he was?

Sam's wonderfulness is reinforced over and over and over. It's a big part of the reason why I find it necessary to point out his flaws... because no one in the show ever seems to call him on his crap, whereas Dean is called on his all.the.freaking.time.

""". It seems to me that the reason he created the whole "deal" was in response to the outcry for more Dean plot. """

You mean the Dean sells his soul so we can watch Sam go evil plot? The plot where Dean can't do anything because of the clause that says he can't do anything? That's a Sam plot, along with all the other Sam plots that will come to play in the next two seasons now that Kripke's dealt with the "Dean" plot so he can go on to the bit Sam the Hero of the story plot.

Tell me again how Sam fans are being ignored? Is it the Sam turning evil? The Sam getting his powers? The Sam becoming badass? The Sam getting characterization? All the things we've seen in S3 and will be seeing in S4 and 5?

Tell me again how Kripke is catering to Dean fans by giving him a flimsy half-assed plot that had nothing to do with Dean and everything to do with Sam?

Or do you mean Kripke's half-assed attempt at pacifying the Dean girls by calling Dean a hero.

"""He's always said it's about family--and it always comes back to the brothers' sacrifice to one another.""" Kripke has talked the talk, but I don't see family here. I see it's all about Sam. Mary's secret will be all about Sam, which makes it funny since she was also Dean's mother, but hey, minor details. Sam will be finding about his past, his powers, his destiny while Dean shines Sam's shoes wondering where Sam's cape went to.

"""The thing is, most Sam girls see Dean as already integral to the plot
"""

Of course he is. He's Sam's brother and protector. That's all Dean needs to be to be involved in the plot. As long as it's about Sam, Dean is part of the plot, what more do us pathetic Dean fans want? Ungrateful of us to ask for more. Dean should be honored to be the brother of such an heroic and mighty figure that Sam Winchester is. We should just keep our mouths shut and be happy.

"""It's been subtly reinforced. Sam is the one who will admit wrong (usually) and Dean is the one who comes out looking right and rosy"""

Please give some samples of this because I remember Scarecrow quite well and Dean admitting he was wrong and telling Sam he admired him. I don't recall hearing the same from Sam except that sorry scene in Fresh Blood where Sam says he looked up to Dean. Really? Is this the same brother you've looked down at for the past two years Sam?

"""You can think it’s a shell of a storyline, but it’s still a storyline. It’s still a plot, no matter how much you like it or not. Having a shell of a storyline is better than having a shell of a character"""

Well it's nice to know that you admitted the "deal" in nothing more than a shell of a storyline and it really does have to do with Sam. As for characterization, I would say that Sam had a lot of characterization this season and I saw a lot all the other seaons. The problem is, the Sam fans want the show to concentrate only on Sam for everything and have Dean is nothing more than Sam's shadow. Well, Kripke should kill off Dean and give Sam fans the show they want then. However, since the ratings will plummet, I doubt he'll go there so the Sam fans get stuck with having to share the spotlight, small as it is, with Dean. Suck it up, since we have to watch the Sam Winchester show just to get some Dean time.

"""And honestly, if Kripke thought Dean was a total loser then why on earth would he develop Dean's character like he does? I """
It wasn't Kripke, it was Jensen, much to Kripke's surprise and chagrin.

I've heard the commentary from WIAWSN. And he's not saying Dean's a total loser. He's saying Dean in another world could have been much less than he is in reality. The lifestyle Dean grew up in called on him to be a lot, and that's the reason we got the big damn hero that we now see. I would think WIAWSN showed that better than anything.

Kripke says a lot of stuff. He says that Bela and Ruby are the best things ever. We still don't believe him on that one. Why? Because we've seen the show and know they don't work. We're smarter than his blind comments. And honestly, if Kripke thought Dean was a total loser then why on earth would he develop Dean's character like he does? I hear him validating both brothers and their relationship more than I do anything else. It's a show about two screwed up brothers trying to make sense of their screwed up life.

"I don't think that Kripke's setting out with this intention to make Dean a pathetic loser and I'm really tired of hearing it because there's no evidence he's trying to do that."

Did you see the commentary for What Is and What Should Never Be? Kripke said exactly this... that Dean would be a loser without hunting. Basically, hunting is all Dean has going for him, and other than that, he's just a worthless, shiftless barfly.

Seriously. Check it out. No one wants to believe this stuff, but when he keeps saying it, time after time after time, it's really hard for us to think anything else.

I guess the biggest thing I'm still struggling with is that I don't see Kripke saying the show is all about Sam. He's always said it's about family--and it always comes back to the brothers' sacrifice to one another. It seems to me that the reason he created the whole "deal" was in response to the outcry for more Dean plot. I think Kripke's pandered often to Dean girl's complaints, because they are loudest and most commonly heard, I would just suggest he hasn't done it very well.

Also, I don't believe for a second that Kripke is perfect and we shouldn't question the guy. I'm in the anti-S3 camp all around, for plot and characterization of both boys. Personally, I have no idea what Kripke was thinking when he started this season. To me, Kripke can talk all he wants, but the proof is in the show. The writing of the show tends to run to Dean emotionally, which I think is far more substantial about the creator's and the writer's true intentions than any sound byte ever could be. Because no matter how many times he says Sam's the surrogate for the audience, he's just not. If he was, then he wouldn't still carry around the "selfish" brand throughout fandom.

And really, to me I'd just be glad that Kripke listens to Dean girls. Because there are many Sam girls who feel like they're being completely ignored--because they don't like the evil!Sam storyline, they don't like anything about anything Kripke's done with Sam and yet Kripke keeps pushing his own agenda anyway. I'm not one of Kripke's big supporters--on any level.

I think most Sam girls have no problem with equality in the show. The thing is, most Sam girls see Dean as already integral to the plot. This is personal, but it would seem like really crappy storytelling to have them pull a "Special Dean" twist by this point. But hey, I'm all for getting rid of Sam's connection to demons and letting them go back to figuring out how to be a family.

So I get frustration with Kripke, I really do, because I guarantee I feel just as frustrated. But I'm not going to go around and start saying it's a big conspiracy to make Sam look like a selfish bastard. I would just say it's crappy writing. It's not that Dean girls don't have reason to be mad, but I don't think that Kripke's setting out with this intention to make Dean a pathetic loser and I'm really tired of hearing it because there's no evidence he's trying to do that. Kripke's had three seasons and all he's done is drop character point after character point with Sam (i.e. Sam's father issues, Sam's faith, etc.). Even with that, I don't think there's a plot against him, just some huge oversights.

I think the original point was of course we all say we want equality on some level (at least the sane among us). But the fact is, if we were to never get it, I would still much prefer depth of characterization over plot points. Which goes to show that I really do feel like Sam is getting gypped with characterization. I'm curious of Dean girls would be willing to trade the depth of Dean's characterization for Sam's plot points and be content if we can't have our ideal balance of both. The point there being, who is getting better served by the current system in the show--Sam or Dean?

It's funny how we all see the polarization differently. I've always seen it as the reality that Dean has ALWAYS been painted as the sympathetic character. Even for all Sam had suffered, we were brought to feel for Dean more often than not. It's been subtly reinforced. Sam is the one who will admit wrong (usually) and Dean is the one who comes out looking right and rosy. I always think of Bugs where Sam talks about how he felt as a teenager. He comes to accept what Dean tells him, but Dean never comes back and validates that it must have been tough for Sam (which I'm not going to get into that argument now). Therefore, we, as the audience, are inclined to think, "Gee, I'm so glad Sam learned tos ee the light and appreciate his family more. Dean's right!" Which is a very one-sided view of how things seemed to have been in the Winchester family. In terms of the family, of the hunt, of most things, Dean is much more the "right" one more often than not. We see him question himself some (a la Bloodlust) but even then it just reinforces that Dean is the one we should respect more. Sam's the selfish bastard who abandoned his family and tried to fix it all too little, too late and is now going to negate his brother's sacrifice by going darkside. That's not the audience surrogate. That's the automatic lesser brother.

So I guess my ultimate point is, we all really do feel the same. And we really would be more effective listening to each other and feeling each other's pain rather than pointing fingers and calling names. I can't speak for everyone, but that's all I've wanted since day one, and it's the only reason I bother going off here at all--because it has often seemed very one-sided to me.

"People bemoan Sam’s characterization but don’t seem to go out and complain that the creator is fundamentally against them... "

I find this statement more than a little disingenuous, considering Kripke has made no secret of the fact that the show is about Sam's destiny. So of course SamGirls aren't going to complain about the story not being about their guy because so far it does appear to be all about Sam.

Deanfans do not have the same sense of confidence because after almost three seasons we have only been shown how Dean fits into Sam's story. For example, the deal storyline appears to have been was put into play just so that Kripke could make Sam go darkside. There could be more to the deal depending on who the contract holder is and why it wants Dean so badly, but spoilers do not look promising.

At this point I'm just grateful that they they let Dean work out a couple of his self-esteem issues along the way.

I want balance for this show. I do. I want Sam to have more in-depth characterization and I want Dean to be as important to the overall story as Sam. I honestly don't think we can get the former without the latter. How many of you SamGirls are willing to say the same?

"The real question is: do Dean girls think the same?"

Dean Fans have argued over and over again, even in this wanky blog, that the best way to bring balance to the show is to make the mytharc about both brothers. That way Sam's characterization doesn't get short-changed to move the plot and Dean has something more to do than emote over Sam's destiny. But as always, those arguments get drowned out by the Sam Girls screeching DeanGirls are mean and rabid and should leave fandom. And don't forget the ever popular Kripke is a God therefore you must trust him to be a true, blue fan.

The reason Dean Fans feel that Kripke favors Sam is because he has said it time and time again. He has said that he relates to Sam, sees himself as Sam, that Sam is the audience surrogate, the smart one, that Sam is our hero, that Dean would be the biggest loser on the planet without hunting and having Sammy to worry about.

Sure since then he's made the token comment about Dean being a regular-Jo hero or that he sees himself as Sam but wants to be like Dean. But those comments came much later and after much outrage so they feel very much like he is just trying to pacify Dean Fans because he knows damned well he can't afford to lose them.

Kripke was the one that set up the Sam vs. Dean mentality by focusing his entire story on one brother's destiny instead of the destiny of the Winchester family. Unfortunately, that's completely polarized the fandom . So instead of demanding better writing, plotting and characterization overall, we are just fighting each other.

All I know is who started the wank on this thread and it was someone reacting to the encouragement to vote bibro. It was a pro Dean movement here that started the dissension, accusing people of trying to censor them when in fact no one was. It wasn’t Sam girls who started throwing around the insults here. They may have been petty enough to reply, but they didn’t start it. Most of the real whining (and I say most) has been about how Kripke hates Dean, how Dean is not loved, etc. There has been some whining on Sam’s behalf, but I wouldn’t call it most.

Arguing for more characterization for Sam does not mean someone wants the Sam show. Just like arguing that Dean needs more plot doesn’t mean someone wants the Dean show. This is a problem of perception—the issue is that some people feel okay with Sam’s characterization; others don’t. At the same time, some people feel okay with Dean’s plot; others don’t. Wanting balance is wanting balance and in the end we’re probably all right in our own ways, but we’re only willing to fight for the guy we care more about. Therefore cries for equality for Sam are NOT cries for the Sam Show and therefore not hypocritical. Using such language is inflammatory and unnecessary. Some Sam girls are hypocrites. So are some Dean girls. But overall, calling each other that is just getting to a chicken and egg argument that gets us nowhere except angry and hurt feelings.

I don’t get around to every place in fandom, but let me assure everyone of this. Sam girls have fled just as much as Dean girls have and they feel every bit as oppressed. Some have left fandom because of it. This door swings both ways, and the fact is there are some places where Sam girls don’t feel safe going either.

I think what some people also bristled against here was the claim that Kripke hates Dean—because that seems to be ridiculous and over the top. People bemoan Sam’s characterization but don’t seem to go out and complain that the creator is fundamentally against them (and keep in mind, at this point I’m assuming we all have valid complaints with the ways our boys are being treated). Just like it’s frustrating for Dean girls to hear cries that Sam gets characterization, Sam girls feel frustrated that all Dean girls want is more plot. We all feel alienated in the same way and instead of pointing fingers and saying “YOU! It’s your fault you obsessed hypocrite!” we’d be more effective and harmonious SUPPORTING each other. Or at least arguing rationally.

For the record, Sam girls have NOT gotten everything they wanted. At all. Ask the majority of Sam girls. Argue for more plot for Dean all you want, but claiming he’s Sam’s sidekick and that Kripke hates is an argument that holds no water. You can think it’s a shell of a storyline, but it’s still a storyline. It’s still a plot, no matter how much you like it or not. Having a shell of a storyline is better than having a shell of a character. Ask most Sam girls and I think they’d trade Sam’s plot points for Dean’s character development ANY DAY. The real question is: do Dean girls think the same?

""""Dean has a plot--on many levels. He sold his soul for his brother, <<<<<"""

That is not a plot. It's a shell of a storyline that has nothing to do with Dean and everything to do with Sam. Dean sold his soul for Sam, he expresses feelings about Sam, he is always and ever tied to Sam. That's not plot or characterization, it's Kripke filling in Pancho Sancha's shoes while Sam Quixote chases demons and becomes superdark, superSam. Dean fans have nothing to look forward to for the next two years as Sam fans watch Sam become everything they've ever asked for and then some. Sam has now his own superRuby by his side, thus pushing Dean further into nothingsville that Sam fans have been wanting for Dean since the end of season 1. Unfortunately, it seems this is Kripke's vision too and his patronizing "Dean is a hero" speech really didn't fly with me. I don't like to be patronized Kripke. I know the story is about Sam and Sam the hero, while his brother Dean is left by the wayside drooling and wide-eyed with wonder, but don't tell us it's nothing like that.

It's a damn shame that with all the work Ackles has done with Dean and with promoting and really working hard for this show, the only thanks he gets is a minor role as Sam's brother. Whatever Kripke. Don't expect me to check out any more of your shows. Disappointment is not what I like to invest in.

You are correct that the definition of a hypocrite is someone who says one thing and does another. OR in this case, condemns certain behaviors then behaves in the same way themselves.

Sam Fans bash Dean Fans and call them crazy, obsessed and rabid because they want Dean to have a presence in the mytharc episodes that doesn't just revolve around Sam. Yet Sam Fans whine continuously about Sam not having any characterization.

They accuse Dean Fans of wanting The Dean Show because we want Dean to have more to do in the story than worry about Sam and be his chauffeur. Yet they insist that Dean doesn't need any more of anything and whine constantly that Sam is short-changed even though the entire plot revolves around him. They want more character, more plot and of course they love Dean best and only when he is all about Sam. If that's not wanting The Sam Show, I don't know what is.

Sam Fans are always the first to start the Sam vs. Dean stuff and then whine and accuse the Dean Fans of dividing the fandom.

Go back and look at the various posts since The CW Source started more than two years ago. You will find almost every time wank errupts, it's some Sam/Jared Fan who complains that he does not get enough love/attention/respect from the majority of the fandom.

You managed to drive Dean Fans away from SN.TV, and some others underground because their opinions have been so vilified and now that we are finally speaking up you cry oppression. Tyranny doesn't always come from the majority. Sometimes it comes from an elite few who set themselves up as the arbiters of what is right and appropriate in the fandom. That's what you all have been doing with labels like rabid Dean girl or crazies or extremists Dean Fans. I have not seen those kinds of labels slapped on Sam Fans anywhere even though there are some who are just as extreme in their views as they accuse some Dean Fans of being.

So yes, to my way of thinking, you Sam Fans are the textbook definition of hypocrisy.

Dean has a plot--on many levels. He sold his soul for his brother, starting his own plot about how he feels about himself and his role in his family. We saw him trying to live it up in M7, which had a very hollow ring to it. Then we see him begin to wonder about what he's missing in "The Kids..." and then slowly we see his point of view changing until it comes to a climax in DALDOM. This storyarc meets all the definitions I know for plot.

Not to mention the idea that the first two seasons really were about Dean trying to protect his family, which is why he got to play hero in AHBL2 and not Sam. By giving Dean that final action of killing the YED, it fully cemented it as just as much his storyline as Sam's. Just because this season Dean has his hands tied with the deal doesn't mean that the plot doesn't involve him, no more than last season when Sam virtually felt like there was nothing he could do to fight his destiny and relinquished most of his control over to Dean. Dean took most of the actions in Sam's destiny, but the storyline still involved Sam.

Not to mention that supposedly this is still a show about brothers learning how to understand and work for each other. Whatever happens to Sam, happens to Dean. Whatever happens to Dean, happens to Sam. They're interrelated.

Sam's characterization is a different issue for a different post.

The point is that there is no objective viewpoint. But merely that it is possible (though maybe hard for some to believe) that someone could love both brothers equally and think Sam is getting the short end of the stick. It is also very possible that there are people who love Dean more and think Sam's getting the short end of the stick. These things are ALL possible because ultimately how we view and understand the show is a matter of personal perception. The best we can do is base our ideas on facts from the show. Though clearly at this point there is such a strong divide that rational discussion is not possible because no one is willing to concede anything ever.

And really, hypocrites? How? Hypocrites say one thing but do another. How is someone who says they love both brothers and want equal things for the brother hypocritical? It's not. You just don't agree with their assessment of it. It doesn't mean they're morons. It means you don't agree. And look at what most of them are saying. NO ONE has argued for The Sam Show. They've argued for equally. They don't want to see Dean diminished. They want to see Sam on equal ground with him. Again, you may not agree, but that's NOT an argument for the Sam Show and thinking that it is is more than a bit reactionary.

The idea that there are exclusively Samgirl and Deangirl arguments is an utter fallacy. I for one am a Samgirl and think Dean has also been done a huge disservice this season in regards to his character. I'm angry on his behalf, though maybe not for the same reason that Dean girls are. But, yeah, I do think Sam's getting the shorter end of the stick and I could rationally explain it to you all day long but then I'd just be an irredeemable hypocrite who wants to undermine the power of Dean girls in the fandom.

We all know who runs fandom. We know who's more popular. I think maybe some people would just like it if the majority was willing to entertain the possibility that someone has a different idea without being told they're hypocrites and morons who have no value in fandom. I sort of feel like I should be taken out and beaten with a stick for my sheer unimportance and for forgetting my place in the grander scheme of things. I'll have to learn that my opinions don't matter. Maybe someday, right?

The more you Sam Fans talk, the more you show yourselves to be complete and unredeemable hypocrites.

As for the self-declared bi-bros who are essentially whining because SN hasn't yet completely become The Sam Show, you're even bigger hypocrites.

And about The Sam Show driving away the "crazy" Dean Girls, you Sam Girls better hope not because it's the sheer number of Dean Fans that keeps this show on the air. Because hello, they are vast majority whether the Jared Fans like it or not.

Right. So, basically, the only objective view is that Sam needs more characterization. If you don't think that way, you don't TRULY want balance. Cause that view isn't subjective whatsoever.

And yes, if you're going to tell me that you're BiBro when you're making Samgirl arguments, I'm gonna scoff at your self-designation. Your arguments are a clearer, more accurate way of telling me your perceptions and biases than some cheap label you slap on yourself to try and avoid critique. "Oh, I'm BiBro! I couldn't possibly choose between them! But, you know, all that characterization we got for Sam doesn't count, and we need a ton more of that... but everything's fine with Dean, he doesn't need any place in the plot but to worry over Sam. Actually, how about Dean just holds Sam's cape while Sam goes and saves the world, and then bakes him cookies and rubs his feet when he comes home? All of my Deangirl friends think that's an awesome idea!"

Right. I'm sure they do.

I like how people can now tell other people how to identify themselves. Nope, you're not bibro. You can't be! Because you think Sam's being treated unfairly so you MUST be a Sam girl! Because only insane and dumb people like Sam girls would think that!

Nice. In case any of us were confused what a vicious attack was, you gave us a lovely example.

Don't insult all of our intelligences by trying to tell other people how they feel about the show or characters. Some very rational people really do think Dean's doing just fine and dandy on the show. It doesn't automatically mean they're Sam girls. In fact, believe it or not, I know some Dean girls who are inclined to agree that way. Some people truly do want balance and think the way to do that is not to give Dean more plot, but to even out the characterizations, where Sam is suffering this year (and ALL years). The show is told through Dean's eyes. He's the point of entry. The story may be "all about Sam" but we understand it via Dean's eyes nine times out of ten.

I won't even bother to say which way I swing. I'm sure someone will be kind enough to tell me who I am anyway.

"If having more Sam characterization in the show to equal the two brothers is what will drive all the nutjobs away from fandom, dude, good riddance!"

I love how so-called BiBros don't understand why Dean needs plot, and yet can TOTALLY see why Sam needs characterization, because OMG, Sam is so maligned!!!!11!!!

Dude. If you can't see the massive characterization Sam has gotten this season, you're not BiBro. If you can't see that the story could be improved by both brothers getting equal amounts of plot and characterization, you're not BiBro. If you think everything is just perfect with Dean, but that Sam is being totally abused by the writers, you are not BiBro. You are a Sam fan. Accept it. Embrace it. There is room for improvement with both characters, but if all you can see is the stuff that needs to be done for Sam, and you attack viciously anyone who wants plot for Dean, then you want the show to be about Sam. Period. That's all right. It doesn't make you a bad person. But don't insult anyone's intelligence by trying to label that position as BiBro, because it isn't.

Do I need to add a disclaimer here that I'm BiBro? Consider it added.

"Right now, it's not about both brothers, it's about Sam. If you take Dean's characterization away, it will be the Sam Winchester Show in which case the yawnfest will drive me away."

Take away Dean's characterization? Because, what, there was too little of it? What do you consider "characterization"? We've been getting heaps of characterization for Dean ever since season 1!!! It's Sam's characterization that we have to beg for. We don't even know what kind of music Sam listens to when Dean's not around!

"No doubt this new finale will be the crowning achievement of Sam becoming all powerful, saving poor helpless Dean's ass and becomeing the heroic evil Sam that's been asked for by the Sam fans."

First, not all of Sam fans want evil Sam. Second, if Sam does save Dean, that will be a *change* because we've had two seasons of Dean saving Sam's ass here. In fact, it's about time someone did the same for Dean. Even the two actors joke about how "now it's time for Sam to save Dean's ass for a change". It's even a dialogue line at the end of Season 2.

If having more Sam characterization in the show to equal the two brothers is what will drive all the nutjobs away from fandom, dude, good riddance!

I guess if this poll showed anything, it was that fandom will ALWAYS have the same bunch of crazies. And that during hiatus? They go even crazier *shakes head*

This is ridiculous!!!

Supernatural's fans sometimes too deep into it.

The show is about both brothers.

And I love them both, it'd works much less if there was only one of them.

I'd vote for both.

Whose pretending it means nothing? It has to do with Sam and the demons. Doesn't mean the entire SHOW is to be summarized by that line, IMO. I just prefer to look logically at how the storylines work and how the characterization goes and come to the very real conclusion that Dean's character is receiving due attention. He's getting story and character--his desire to keep his family together in S1, his secret angst S2, his facade and realization that he has self-worth S3. These things are tied to Sam, but no more than Sam's "destiny" is tied to his role as Dean's little brother in S1, his fear of hurting Dean S2, and his need to save Dean in S3. They're codependent. So all their storylines are codependent.

Again, the main line I hear from Kripke again and again is that this is a show about brothers. How many time have we heard the boys declare their plaintive need to save each other, to be there for each other. That's the chorus of the show, not it's "all about Sam." All S2 we heard about Sam's fear of going evil, yet in the end, Dean was integral to the resolution of that storyline, and the emotional punch from that storyline belonged to Dean, not Sam in the end. The proof isn't in canned dialogue. It's in the fabric of the show.

"It seems selective to say that we’re clinging only to the “all about Sam” quote when there’s so much other evidence to say that it’s about both boys."

No, it seems realistic. And wouldn't it be absolutely wonderful if people DIDN'T repeat that over, and over, and over? Then I'd have no reason to think it.

But they've said it for a reason. And it seems really selective to me to pretend it means nothing.

More than anything the powers that be say that it’s a show about family and brothers. That’s been the line since season one and I have seen no interview that says that the heart of the show has changed in any way, shape, or form. Demons saying it’s all about Sam—sure, at this point demons want Sam. But the show also goes out of its way to show the complete codependency of the boys, making anything about Sam about Dean. Not to mention Dean’s whole storyline of self-worth which has been carried through quite a bit this season, another thing they’ve mentioned time and again in interviews. There’s context, and the “all about Sam” from Ruby is just a snippet. Because equally so, the Trickster more or less says that Sam is all about Dean, which is part of his downfall.

Of course Dean’s deal involves Sam. Just like Sam’s abilities involve Dean. If Dean wasn’t a part of that storyline, then why else would Dean be given the heroic task of killing the YED? Their plotline depend greatly on each other because the boys are frighteningly codependent. It seems selective to say that we’re clinging only to the “all about Sam” quote when there’s so much other evidence to say that it’s about both boys. The show also tells me that Dean’s the pretty one, and my common sense just by watching tells me better. You have too look holistically at things—because I’m pretty sure I remember S3 spoilers before the season began that heralded the deal as “Dean’s storyline.” It seems like some people are pretty selective on what words they take. Even at the most recent con, Kripke seems to be trying pretty hard to convince the masses that Dean’s just as important to the show as Sam.

In fact, if you look at it, the first two seasons which are supposedly about “Sam’s powers” is just as much about Dean given who actually takes action in those seasons. I’m pretty sure Kripke didn’t create a character to take out his hatred on. And quite frankly, no matter who says what, I watch the eps and the fact is we learn more about who Dean is. I don’t see how that makes anything except Ruby all about Sam.

We seem to agree that a return to the S1 feel is the way to go, because this storyline doesn’t benefit Sam and doesn’t seem to benefit Dean either.

"that the show is all about Sam"

Before you tell me to stop saying it, tell Kripke, Singer and Shiban to stop saying it, and tell them to stop having characters say it in the script. Because I've heard the phrase "It's all about Sam" or "It's all about you, Sam" at least five or six times in this past year, and if I'm to dismiss it as a silly idea, I need to stop hearing it from the people in power.

So, yeah. If they stop saying it, I'll stop saying it. But so long as they say it, I'm gonna take them at their word.

Sheesh, Melanie. Take a deep breath. People are allowed to have their own opinions and voice them, even if those opinions are different than yours.

This Season 3 a character has come out and said it's all about Sam, and an executive producer (one of The Powers That Be of the show) has also stated in an interview that it's all about Sam. Dean's deal isn't even really a storyline for Dean that he can participate in because, based on the contract terms, Dean cannot take any actions or Sam will die.

I don't think it helps when the writers have to take focus off of the brothers to try and shoehorn in Bela and Ruby. These two characters are in way too many episodes.

I just wish the show would get back to the story of two brothers, traveling the roads of America hunting evil and saving people. I miss that show from Season 1 that I fell in love with.

Sheesh, people. KRIPKE DOES NOT HATE DEAN. Not that I've talked to him personally or anything, but the idea is ridiculous. Dean is just as important to the storyline as Sam is and the screen time he gets is usually character development instead of plot advancement, which means it's better material to act from (it's easier to evoke emotion when having a one-to-one with a victim as opposed to sitting at a laptop or standing in the background brooding). Love Jensen and Dean all you want, please, but STOP saying that Kripke hates Dean or that the show is all about Sam because I honestly cannot see how Kripke could give Dean more unless you truly do want the show to be all about DEAN.

Agreed. It's Jensen that made Dean spectacular, not the writing. Had it been another actor, Kripke would have had the loser he's always wanted in Dean. luckily, we got Jensen to play Dean and give us one of tv's best heroes ever.

Nah, Jensen just sells the writing well. The writing itself is mediocre across the board.

Then delusions abound. Because to say that Jensen/Dean is ripped off in the series is outlandish. Dean's charater is certainly getting his due, and what's written for him is generally better written.

Anonymous, more lines? More screentime? That's complete bull. It's a two-man show, and they both get equal amounts of lines and screentime. Whether you like how Sam's screentime is used or what his lines are is another matter, but it's delusional to say that he's not getting his share of the time on screen. Geez.

Yes, you're right. Jensen is SO ripped off. He gets more lines, more screen time, more praise, and better writing. The poor boy! Whatever will he do! I suppose he will have to solace himself with having more fans, too!!

And no one was actually telling anyone what to do. People saying "Vote for both--they go together!" is no more morally abusive than "Vote for Dean! Jensen's the best!!" This is an issue of overreaction.

This right here:

"Kripke needs to involve Dean in the arc, and have the show balance. We're not going to love Dean less because Kripke has decided that Sam is the only one that's important. We're only going to love him more because with the crappy deal Jensen is getting, he's still giving us one hell of a hero."

...is exactly how I see it. Thanks starrynight.

"That's not what I'm doing. I'm just addressing the fact that some Dean fans here are up in arms over people voting for Sam or both brothers, and saying it's just because of pity. The fact of the matter is, some people actually do like Sam and feel compelled to support and vote for him. There's nothing wrong with that."

Wow. I think you completely misinterpreted what people were unhappy about. They weren't unhappy about people voting for both. They were unhappy about people trying to tell THEM how to vote, or implying that a bibro vote was somehow morally superior, or people yelling at the site for even having this poll in the first place (see a comment to the semifinals post, in which someone said it was "disrespectful" to even do the finals round).

People should be able to vote however they like without being harassed about it, or made to feel like they've betrayed the fandom or made fandom worse for voting a certain way. THAT is the point. And I guess I just don't see why that's such a radical idea.

People, what the hell is going on with you?
We are talking about the show we all love!!

Jense is the most SEXY ad the BEST guys i^m sorry but please look to that MEN hi got everything... Sorry Jared you are hot too but no more that Jensen! Not feel bad Jensen in Jensen hi^s unic^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^

"... But no one's saying that, Honey. Why are you trying to set up a false argument here?"

That's not what I'm doing. I'm just addressing the fact that some Dean fans here are up in arms over people voting for Sam or both brothers, and saying it's just because of pity. The fact of the matter is, some people actually do like Sam and feel compelled to support and vote for him. There's nothing wrong with that.

I mentioned earlier that a lot of old threads from the Sam forum were cleaned out as well. Or at least aren't accessible anymore, so I'm having a hard time buying that there's this huge conspiracy against Dean fans on Sn.tv, that's all.

You guys are NUTS !

LOL! It's the Sam Show! It's the Dean Show! It's the show that is watched by self-centered idiots!!

Seriously. Wow. This has become utterly pointless. The conflict started on this thread by people not liking BIBRO PEOPLE suggesting for a BIBRO VOTE. There was nothing from angry Sam fans trying to rig the poll to subvert Dean's popularity. That's ludicrous and clearly NOT HAPPENING if you read the posts at all.

And for the record, a lot of Sam girls don't want evil Sam. A lot of Sam girls don't really care about his powers. A lot of Sam girls want to know what's going on in his head, as he has lost so much in life and we still don't know all that much about how it's affected him. Sam girls haven't gotten what they wanted. Really, I think it's funny, if Kripke listened to fans at all, he'd just reverse it all. Give people SUPERDEAN and give Sam character development and then it seems like we'd all be happy, right?

If this show as truly all about Sam, no one would care about Dean, and we all know that people love Dean! It's Sam who lacks fans, which says SOMETHING about how the writing of the show is going.

Ali, you're right :) I should simply shut up about this because the back and forth is going nowhere. No one so stuck in their ways will ever be happy. No one convinced the world and the fandom is out to get them will ever be happy either (Sam, Dean, BiBro, anything). I just am tired of all the wank that Dean is hated by Kripke and that Dean girls are so tortured. Nonetheless, these seem to be problems that logic and reason cannot fix. I can't control anyone else, but I can control myself, so I've said my peace and I'm done (conceding nothing, by the way :). I leave this conversation with a smile on my face at the sheer anger that all this elicits and the fact that it's taken way too seriously.

I can't believe that people still think Kripke doesn't like Dean!! I wonder if we even watch the same show! Dean get so much more depth than Sam it's not even funny. He gets far more episodes and far more scenes and far more dialogue and far more EVERYTHING. He even gets PLOT. This show is more about how Dean is coping with his family than it is about Sam being special or something. Just think about it. Why do so many people see an ep about Sam's destiny and say "Oh, DEAN!" Sure, Jensen's performance comes into play, but also just consider that he gets all the reaction. The story is from his POV most of the time. With Sam we have to think about it and infer and guess because what the show does show us is inconsistent and shallow at best. Sam's characterization is so often driven by plot that it's hard to really say what it means about him. Him drinking in the bar in DALDOM was nothing more than a set up for Dean's greater revelation later in the ep about Dean wanting to live.

I'm not whining right now about the lack of Sam development. I'm just annoyed that people are still saying it's ALL ABOUT SAM and that Kripke is a Sam girl and that the entire fandom is against Dean. None of these things are true and listening to it again and again is frustrating! I'd be more sympathetic to all things Dean if Dean girls didn't freak out all the time that their boy isn't getting any love. He's getting all the love--he's the "hero," the "selfless" one, the one who is "pure," the "OH DEAN!" Sam, according to the majority of the fandom is the spoiled little brat who doesn't realize just how good he's had it and doesn't appreciate his brother and is weak-willed and corruptible. Knock Sam around enough like that and his fans will get a little restless, not that there's much they can do as they are in the minority and are automatically bullies and hypocrites for saying anything.

James Randall if you have never seen a Sam girl who doesn't like Dean, if you think that the deal was about Dean and not about Sam going evil, if you think that Dean is getting all the characterization while poor Sam gets nothing, waahh, except that the story is all about him, but hey, minor details there, if you think that Dean girls want it all about Dean, then you have been living in a box. Try getting around more. The Sam fans have gotten everything they have ever asked for. They want dark Sam, Kripke gives them dark Sam, they want Sam with powers, Kripke is bringing the powers back, they want badass Sam, Kripke gives them badass Sam. The Dean girls want Dean to have a storyline, Kripke gives Sam all the storylines and the only one that Dean has is still all about Sam.

Yet the Sam fans still want more. They want the Sam Winchester Hour, and I have no doubt in my mind that Kripke will give you everything you want, as he's done in the past. In which case, I will kiss this show good bye. I'm sick of superSam the hero of the show.

If it can't be about both brothers, then it's not a show I want to watch.

Right now, it's not about both brothers, it's about Sam. If you take Dean's characterization away, it will be the Sam Winchester Show in which case the yawnfest will drive me away.

I say Sam girls, have fun with your new Sam Winchester Show. I'm sure it will be everything you've dreamed about. No doubt this new finale will be the crowning achievement of Sam becoming all powerful, saving poor helpless Dean's ass and becomeing the heroic evil Sam that's been asked for by the Sam fans.

The only thing this poll shows it how far Sam fans will go to keep Dean from winning, and how popular Dean still is.

My Thoughts on the Supernatural Fandom "Problems", let me show you them.

The problem is not Deangirls. The problem is not Samgirls. The problem is people whining about everyone having different opinions than they do, not being able to accept diversity, and then pointing the finger and saying "It's THAT person! THAT person is ruining fandom!"

That's the problem. If you accept that others won't always agree with you, I guarantee you will be happier.

What it comes down to in my eyes in this poll is that people obviously have there favorites. I am a Sam girl to the death and think this poll is pretty sad.

What seems sadder though is the amount of people that think Sam girls should shut up because Sam gets plot, uh why on earth should we be satisfied with just plot when Dean gets the majority if not ALL characterization.

Dean has also been given the massive plot this season of the deal so nobody can say he hasn't been given plot this season.

It's about time the writers evened up the score and gave Sam the same respect they give Dean's character.

It has nothing to do with Jareds or Jensens acting, both boys are on par with one another in my eyes. What it has everything to do with is keeping this show balanced between the two and not bowing down to the rabble of Dean girls who want it all about him.

Sure many Dean girls aren't that way but the ones that are are the problem with fandom.

I've never met a Samgirl who didn't like Dean, I've met plenty of Deangirls who automatically criticize Sam for no apparant reason.

That's the problem in my humble opinion.

The problem would be resolved for both Dean and Sam fans if Kripke made it about two brothers instead of just ALL ABOUT SAM! Sam gets characterization, but some is sacrificed in order to drive the plot because Sam is the only one involved in the plot and Sam is the only one that can drive it forward. Dean has no place in the arc, but he's the other lead, so they need to do something with him and they have him react to his family, to Sam, thus giving him a character driving plot. Season 1 was pretty even in that the plot was finding daddy. Both boys drove it, both boys got characterization and the stories ran smooth and true. Now, only Sam the hero can do everything, and unless Dean is explored, he is nothing more than a shadow in the show. Being the other lead, this really sucks for us Dean fans, but the Sam fans suffer too because Sam is only useful in telling the story.

Kripke needs to involve Dean in the arc, and have the show balance. We're not going to love Dean less because Kripke has decided that Sam is the only one that's important. We're only going to love him more because with the crappy deal Jensen is getting, he's still giving us one hell of a hero.

Hey Sarah and CW Source team -- I understand that you will be attending the Supernatural Convention in LA this weekend and I do hope that you will be able to interview Jensen as well and perhaps let him know about Dean winning the CW Course Hottie Bracket! I think it's cute. Thanks!

Of course Sam has some characterization. That's an exaggeration. But this whole hyperbole game swings both ways. Dean has a role in the story. This whining that he doesn't is equally ridiculous. Because if you give Dean any more screen time, then Sam honestly will have no role whatsoever.

Sam tends to get fewer episodes that focus on his inner workings. Some, sure, and Mystery Spot is a good example (the Christmas ep, Heart, Bloody Mary, etc.). The point is, he doesn't get as much, and truthfully character develop is truly more juicy than plot points. Jus in Bello was merely an example.

So I'll concede Sam does get SOME character development and I wouldn't go off at all if people didn't claim Dean has no role in the series and Kripke has seriously undervalued him. Because that is simply not true. Dean is just as important to Sam in the series and I'd argue that the show has made him MORE important since he IS the one that gets the character moments. I'm not trying to devalue JA's acting here, but it's easier to attract fans when you get the emotional depth that Dean's character gets.

This fandom IS ridiculous. People whining over how Sam is not appreciate and why Dean isn't appreciate and so on. Honestly, I'm willing to play nice with others if they STOP acting like the world is out to get them on a poll where people were merely encouraging a happy medium. I never would have said one THING here if this idea that Dean girls are so persecuted had come up. I'll check fandom wank out, but I can say such claims of persecution in a fandom where they are so clearly dominant goes from being funny to annoying and back again to the point where I feel like I'm letting them get away with something too ridiculous if nothing challenges the notion.

Again, this is why the original bibro posters were right. If we play nice and try to understand one another instead of screaming out and saying how oppressed they are this wouldn't have happened. My role in it is ridiculous as well, but someone has to say something about because it's wearisome.

Anonymous, I'm not complaining, but what happened in Jus in bello to Sam (to be a plot device), it happened to Dean in Mystery Spot... He died and died and the episode was all about the Sam reaction at that, how bad was not be able to save Dean and how was his life without him.

Oh...my...GOSH! Seriously guys, I love this fandom, I do- it's like the crush that'll never go away, but you guys are COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS sometimes!

This is just a simple, fun, little poll. And yet somehow, people have made it into some weird, twisted Sam vs Dean brawl for all. What the heck is this? Deangirls vs Samgirls? HUH? I thought we were all one fandom? I mean come on. You want to vote for Dean? That's cool. You want to vote for Sam? That's cool. You want to vote for both? THAT'S COOL! Vote for who you want, stop making it into such a big deal.

As for the stuff being said about SN.tv- eh, I've been going there from the very beginning, and it's a great forum for discussion and very friendly. I can't believe there's "controversy" over deleted posts, especially OLD, deleted posts, but whatever. Think what you want to think- I guess that was my orignal point, and leave it be for now. Nothing to tear each other apart over.

--Dee

"There's a difference between a plot device, which is what Sam is, and character development, which is what Dean gets."

If Sam is such an under-developed character, why do you all love him so much? After almost three years, of this alleged non-development, you'd think he would have no fans at all.

Now I do agree that we have had more of Dean's inner workings, but since they've given him nothing else to do but react to his family drama, they have to give him something.

But you talk like Sam has been given zero development and that's just crap. The entire first season was about Sam's feelings. His grief for Jessica, wanting revenge on YED and learning to understand his family -- reconnecting with his father and his brother. Sure Dean got some character episodes, but again they all dealt with reacting to his family.

The second season had Sam stepping up to take care of his brother and his fear of losing him. We had some beautiful scenes about his feelings about both his parents and then we had entire episodes dedicated to dealing with his destiny and how he felt about it. Simon Said, Hunted, Playthings, Houses of the Holy, Born Under a Bad Sign, Heart, and AHBL 1 and 2. They all dealt with Sam's destiny as well as his fears about what he could become and AHBL 2 gave us some lovely moments that showed how much he loves his brother.

Sure Dean got more in terms of grieving for John and a pat on the father, but that's the only story he was given besides reacting to Sam's destiny.

Season 3 has been all about how Sam feels about losing Dean. Just as much as it's been about Dean trying to deal with the fact that he is going to Hell. But again since Sam is driving all the plots, they make the character react to the plot in ways that aren't always smooth in terms of emotional continuity. That's not a problem with Dean because again, all he's got going on is reacting to the idea of going to Hell and Sam's crazy emotions.

You may not think that Sam's inner workings were as well done as Dean's but I don't think you can claim that the writers didn't at least try to address them. If they were given short-shrift, I think it's because they needed to move the plot along and that completely rests on Sam's shoulders.

I believe if they made all the destiny stuff a Winchester thing rather than a Sam thing, character and story development for both characters would be more balanced. As it is, Dean episodes focus on what makes Dean tick and how he is reacting to the various events that happen to Sam because there is nothing else for him to do.

Posts from Anna. "The show is already telling us it's "All about Sam." Eric Kripke says it's "All about Sam." Even Ruby said "it's all about YOU, Sam." So, far be it from the DeanGirls to mess with Kripke's plan. Yet I still love Dean. I'll take him as Sam's "sidekick" if I have to (and the way things are looking this season, I have to)".

The show started off being "All about Sam" and it will end being about Sam "the hero" Dean "the sidekick" with the cool car but like you said Anna we have to take what we can get, I guess

"Dean is "Dean" because of Jensen. I'm sure if someone else played the role, Kripke could have Sam as THE Hero, as he initially planned, and Dean would have faded into the woodwork. Thank goodness Jensen is AMAZING as Dean and was able to breath life into a character that was merely supposed to be the sidekick to THE Hero, Sam."

Anna, I totally agree Jensen is ten kinda of awesome as Dean. I'm glad we got Jensen for the role of Dean I don't think anyone else could handle it like he does, he so talented and sexy as hell. I hate to say it but if it wasn't for Jensen I wouldn't bother with this show.

"And I've been on livejournal frequently. Still not seeing the Dean bashing."

Just go to fandom wank. At least a couple of the more memorable examples have been recorded there for posterity and mockery.

There's a lot to be said, though, for being able to recognize characterization when you get it. Sam's gotten a TON of characterization this year. Think about episodes like A Very Supernatural Christmas, which were all about Sam's childhood issues and current issues, where he had to struggle to overcome his grief over the impending loss in order to give a loved one what he needed. Think about Bedtime Stories, when we saw him struggle with the knowledge that he was gonna lose Dean, and then we saw him take one step into darkness when he killed the Crossroads Demon. Think about his response to Dean in the car in Red Sky about why he did it, and what that covered up. Think about Mystery Spot, where we saw what he'd become if he really does lose his family (parallels to his father, which have been made since the beginning of the series, are consistent here), and think about the way he's handled his responsibilities in trying to save Dean... how he's faltering, crumbling, looking to Ruby for support once Dean's gone because he knows he's gonna be left here alone. Think about how he's slipping little by little, getting to the point he got to in Jus in Bello, where his philosophy has become utilitarian enough to accept the methods Ruby offered.

All these are deep characterization moments for Sam, and if Sam fans are throwing them away and saying they don't count, that's no one's fault but their own. Sam is being thoroughly characterized this year, and being taken in very interesting directions in a logical and compelling way.

"Dean fans (generally speaking) needn't take it so personally."

... But no one's saying that, Honey. Why are you trying to set up a false argument here? People are saying that after the purge of Dean posts from sn.tv, a lot of Dean fans left. You seem to be astonished that people would feel wary of a board that had done something like that to an entire segment of fans, but I don't really understand why it surprises you. If a board selectively deleted the majority of Sam posts, from everything you've said, I get the impression you wouldn't feel welcome there, either (since you apparently sympathize with Sam fans who kept away from the board out of fear of debate over the characters... moderator bias is far more intimidating to many people than the possibility of meeting someone who disagrees with you).

There's a difference between a plot device, which is what Sam is, and character development, which is what Dean gets. The plot, indeed, has largely been propelled by Sam's destiny. But, look at who gets the dialogue, who gets the revealing heart to hearts. In fact, I'd argue that much of the mytharc episodes are even viewed from Dean's POV. It's more about how Dean feels about Sam going evil than any actual insight into Sam's world. Plot does not equal character development. Just look at "Jus in Bello." Ruby was there because it was "about Sam." But what did Sam do in the ep? Not much. He stood around. Who got to bond with Nancy? Dean. Who got to spar verbally with Henricksen? Dean. Who got to then earn Henricksen's trust? Dean. Who got to go out to the car and have close ups? Dean. Who sat there and stared and then made a morally ambiguous statement to propel the plot? Sam. I'd take character development over plot device for a character any day. I think most Sam fans would gladly trade the plot that is Sam's for the character development that is Dean's. So Kripke's not exactly being fair to either brother here, so to make this assumption that he's pushing Sam down our throats seems a little weird. Which is where the statement about how some FANS just want Sam to sit around and be a backdrop for all things Dean.

If Kripke wants Sam to be THE HERO, then why on earth does Dean get ALL the hero moments? The entire YED storyline was ended by DEAN'S heroics while Sam, who this was all about, was pinned uselessly to a tree. Seriously, the show can say it's all about Sam every ep but it means NOTHING unless Sam's character has some kind of development. I don't know what more can be done to show the wonder that is Dean. Seriously. What else would there be? Because if you want super powered Dean, fine, have him. Let me tell you, super powers haven't done squat for Sam's character. It seems ridiculous to be bitter that Sam has a storyline. Because so does Dean, one that has been much more deeply developed than Sam's EVER has which is partly why Dean's so easy for fans to empathize with. Because we've gotten his storyline of trying to put his family back together, of him trying to make sense of who he is in his family, of how to keep his family together when everything around him is falling apart. That's rich and compelling and so much more interesting than Sam's "AH! I have visions!" So the bitterness Dean girls have about the powers storyline is a bit mind boggling to me because honestly, if the show gave any more screen time to Dean, then Sam could be bumped to a secondary character, used very much like Bobby is.

And I find it rather interesting that there is supposedly rampant Dean bashing yet the subtle slurs against Sam and Jared on this are just so nicely overlook and taken for granted. If legions of Dean girls can't be put down, then do you really expect legions of passionate Sam girls to take stuff lying down either? If everyone loves their boy, then really fighting is inevitable with this type of attitude. Again, this is why the bibro encouragers had the right idea. Playing nice with others is just...nice. And the more we try to see where each other is coming from, the more likely we are to be happy all around.

And I've been on livejournal frequently. Still not seeing the Dean bashing.

What the...?

Why is this not in fandom_wank yet?

"Maybe it was more of this "pity" stuff. The mods felt sorry for Sam having less than half Dean's posts so they decided to take it upon themselves to even things up(funny how after doing that they've never felt the need to do it to Sam's board...hmmm) but pity votes and pity deletions don't do anyone any favors."

This theory just doesn't ring true to me. If the mods were trying to even up the posts, then they wouldn't have any reason to remove from John's thread which had less posts than both brothers.

And I'm guessing this purge thing must have happened in Season 1 if at all, because that's when the Sam thread was pretty bare compared to Dean's. A lot of insightful discussions in there were promptly closed when they turned into arguments with some Dean fans who were apparently appalled that we would dare sympathize with Sam when poor Dean had it so much worse. I remember back then a lot of Sam fans wouldn't even come on the boards because of it.

So if this happened way back in Season 1, why is it being used as an excuse now for certain fans finding the boards intolerable? Especially since we're saying that Sn.tv was once a good site but isn't anymore. The way I see it, it's improved.

The board hasn't become Sam-centric. More like Sam friendly. The mods don't stifle opinions or criticism, they just do what they can to keep discussions civil. In fact, a significant number of these mods and members are Dean fans themselves.

No one should have to apologize for their preferences. Dean is the more popular character, and as a Sam fan, I'm fine with that. He's a great character. But I love that more people are starting to appreciate and admire Sam too, because the way I see it, he's also great and invaluable to the show. If people feel compelled to show support for him and his growth, then they're well within their rights, and Dean fans (generally speaking) needn't take it so personally.

"I'd actually be curious to see where this Dean/Jensen bashing occurs."

You've obviously never been on Livejournal.

"Dean is awesome and amazing and he wins and Kripke should only write about him and just let Sam sit there in awe and wonder of his big bro. "

I haven't read a single comment here that anyone is saying this. Far from it. The show is already telling us it's "all about Sam." Eric Kripke says it's "all about Sam." Even Ruby said "it's all about YOU, Sam." So, far be it from the DeanGirls to mess with Kripke's plan. Yet I still love Dean. I'll take him as Sam's "sidekick" if I have to (and the way things are looking this season, I have to).

Dean is "Dean" because of Jensen. I'm sure if someone else played the role, Kripke could have Sam as THE Hero, as he initially planned, and Dean would have faded into the woodwork. Thank goodness Jensen is AMAZING as Dean and was able to breath life into a character that was merely supposed to be the sidekick to THE Hero, Sam.

"If people are true fans of the show they'd choose both boys over either individually."

No, Hannah, I'm a true fan of the show (and yes, of BOTH brothers) and I am free to choose who I prefer, even if it is one over the other. It's THIS type of comment (by a "Sam girl to the death") that is exactly the problem. And I like Sam and I adore Jared, but I don't like being told that I'm not really a fan if I don't vote for both brothers in some "who's hottest" poll.

"You want Sam girls to get over it? Get over what? That Dean girls get to rule fandom and then whine about how oppressed they are? Or get over that they love a lesser brother and a worse actor? How is that fair or nice because that's what the posts are saying here lately."

Kripke, is that you? Cause we know you are a big Sam fan, thus the whole, IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU SAM, story that you're throwing at us, but seriously, can you at least allow Dean to be recognized for something since you seem to deny him any recognition in the show? We realize that Sam is your favorite, honest we do, and as Dean fans, we've come to accept it. However, our voices are legion and not even the always unsatisfied Sam fans can put us down. But, nice try.

Sam... Sam... SAM

The "fun to poke at" refers specifically to poking fun at the idea that Dean girls are persecute. It has nothign to do with making fun of people for loving Dean.

EVERYONE gets that Dean is more popular. That's the point. He's more popular, always will be. We all know that--Dean girls, Sam girls, bibro types. It's not a mystery. The problem is that even with all that popularity (which DOES equal dominance in a fandom) Dean girls still feel persecuted? It's not foolish to love Dean, not at all, just like it isn't foolish to love Sam. What IS foolish is to act like the fandom has committed some act against Dean because someone dares to suggest trying to love both boys on what everyone has claimed to be a meaningless poll.

Dean girls were not wronged in the initial comments on this poll. They weren't. So what was found to be humorous by some is that out of nowhere they started talking about how pressured they were and how marginalized they were. They're not pressured or marginalized. And when a group that so clearly dominates starts saying stuff like that, of COURSE it's going to get a little backlash.

No one told anyone what to do--until AFTER someone came out and said, "No one can tell me what to do." People cajoled, sure, but that's just like someone saying "Hey, would you like to come over and play over here instead for a bit--it'll be more fun for both of us!"

To be fair, some Sam girls are hypocrites. So are some Dean girls. But COME ON. Dean girls rule everything. Just like they want to rule this. We get the point. Dean is awesome and amazing and he wins and Kripke should only write about him and just let Sam sit there in awe and wonder of his big bro. WE GET THE MESSAGE. Stop acting like the world is against you, because it's not. You get more character development, more fic, more votes, more posts, more fansites--the works.

You want Sam girls to get over it? Get over what? That Dean girls get to rule fandom and then whine about how oppressed they are? Or get over that they love a lesser brother and a worse actor? How is that fair or nice because that's what the posts are saying here lately.

This poll wasn't even divided inherently to begin with. All people were doing here was encouraging a bibro vote for some bigger picture, not trying to threaten the dominance that is Dean and Dean girls. Don't worry. You'll always have that. And until that is taken with an ounce of grace and humility, then I have a feeling that such conflicts are going to continue.

I'd actually be curious to see where this Dean/Jensen bashing occurs. Not because I agree with it but because I've never seen it. Whenever I see anything that remotely incriminates Dean or critizes Jensen's acting, all I see is a massive beat down on whoever innocently venture the comment. The main thing I've seen is Dean domination and constant slams on Sam (i.e. "He's so selfish!" or "I still hate him for that one time!") or Jared ("did you see his acting first season?!" or "Jensen totally has made Jared who he is!").

Seriously, if you look at who started the discord, it was Dean girls. I suppose if we disagree on that point, then we'll never agree, but I've read the posts again just to be sure. And it seemed to be Dean girls not happy that they were being asked to vote bibro (asked is too strong of a word, cajoled is seriously more like it). I knew Dean would win the poll easily, so the only reason I'm bothering with any of this is that some people apparently want Dean to win and no one to suggest anything to the contrary.

Fandom wide, I suppose it will always be a chicken and the egg type of discussion. What came first? Dean haters or Sam haters? I guarantee you everyone will point their finger in the opposite direction. Which is why I kind of respect the bibro encouragement at the beginning of this poll. That really was the right idea to avoid ALL of this.

"And I do have to admit, the Dean sob stories would be a little less fun to poke at if the Dean girls didn't dominate the fandom and every poll out there."

I'm always amazed that some people don't realize that Dean just has more fans. Jensen's translation of Dean is so well done that fans immediately started connecting with this character. The man is good at what he does and the fans respond and for this we are told we are foolish? Why? Because we aren't following Kripke's great big design of the Sam story? Sorry, but I don't connect to Sam. I don't know if it's because Sam is the superbeing that the story is supposed to be revolving around and I just don't like superbeings, or because Jared just isn't selling it, but whatever, it is Dean I connect to and I really don't feel the need to apologize or feel ashamed for.

Also to note, it was a Sam fan that started the sob story of voting bi-bro to be fair to both boys. Yah, right. It had nothing to do with fairness and everything to do with Dean being more loved. Kripke should take note, but he won't. In this matter, Kripke is a lot like the Sam fans. If you don't like Sam the hero, you can't be a true SN fan, so you will be ignored.

This poll is so evil!! hehe But, I LOVE JENSEN!!!! Totally, deeply, madly love him! He is so cool as Dean! This role is perfect for him.

Hannah,

I would quote from your post except it is just one long hypocritical rant from another SamGirl with a chip on her shoulder who thinks she has some sort of moral edge because she prefers the underdog.

But I do agree with your one point. I would certainly feel more amenable to showing my support for Sam if some of his fans weren't such huge hypocrites.

From day one, some SamFans have whined and cried about how unfair everyone is to their guy. They've vilified anyone who is even remotely critical of a
fictional character and labled them SamHaters. From my observation, they are also the first to criticize Dean and post the all kinds of heinous crap about Jensen. Then they turn around and cry if anyone is even remotely critical of Jared's acting or the fact that he has a tendency to bail on his commitments.

More people like Dean better. But that's not why this fandom in so divided. It's the constant temper tantrums thrown by SamFans that leads to more temper tantrums thrown by DeanFans that is the the problem.

Dean is more popular. Get over it.

"fun to poke at"

Are the Samgirls having fun, here? I see gnashing of teeth, and I see seething rage, but one thing I don't see is humor. I think we could all do with a little more of the latter, frankly!

"And if the poll is so silly, then no one should care who people tell them to vote for because who cares who wins at all if it's so silly?"

Now, that just doesn't make sense. Think about it. You're doing something fun and silly... like, jumping in rain puddles. Now imagine someone comes up to you and starts scolding you for puddle-jumping, insisting you're a bad person if you don't jump in the mud as well as in the water. You are taken aback and tell them to chill out and stop telling you what to do.

Does that mean your simple joy in the puddle-jumping was actually super, over-the-top serious to start with? Of course not! What you're taking seriously is the person's sense of entitlement, when they think they can tell you what to do. That IS something to be taken seriously. The puddle jumping is fun and innocuous, and they're coming and yelling at you for it... so you tell them to leave you alone. And you're perfectly within your rights to do so.

I do think a number of Dean fans voted bibro. However, the thread of conversation started in a different place. All of this was in response to someone calling the people encouraging a bibro vote hypocritical. People encouraging the bibro vote were not hypocritical. There is no reason to think they didn't vote bibro like they seemed to want others to do. Therefore, there's no hypocrisy and calling it that is simply inflammatory and unnecessarily so. I don't doubt Dean won this thing hands down. The point is don't call people hypocrites for thinking bibro is the way to go and coming out and saying so in an open forum.

And the "true fan" comments didn't pop up until AFTER the controversy began (as far as I can tell)--it looks like the objection to the bibro encouragement, which was initially fairly good natured IMO, is what prompted people to bring up the true fan type wording (and if you look, it seems like the concept wasn't even brought up by bibro supporters initially, but mostly people rallying against bibro supporters, although then others did join in and say it outright). I would never call someone not a true fan for wanting to vote one way or the other. However, when people cry foul when there was no foul committed, things can quickly spiral out of control. As this all indicates.

And I think the point isn't to make anyone feel guilty about liking Dean, because that's dumb. The point is it's a little redundant to hear Dean fans complain about the lack of Dean love and how oppressed they are as fans. Because it really does seem like they DO dominate everything--Dean threads have more posts, there are always more Dean fics, Dean wins all the polls. Believe it or not, that popularity DOES translate into "power" in a fandom. And I'm sorry, but it IS a little funny about all this "how dare they tell us to vote bibro" and "we're being oppressed!" when THEY WON THE POLL HANDS DOWN. My intent isn't to be mean, but the complaint about being persecuted just looks a bit ridiculous in light of this poll.

The betterment of fandom is about easing hurt feelings on either side. Because, believe it or not, Sam girls do feel bad when Sam is beat so handily (not to mention called selfish and berated every single epsode). To make a stand to show that we all support BOTH brothers is an attempt at unity and getting over ourselves in order to make everyone feel good in the end. That's how voting bibro can be about the betterment of fandom because clearly Dean girls feel slighted and Sam girls feel slighted and then everyone calls names and it's all so ridiculous and could be avoided if we simply celebrated what we DO agree on. That's not saying you're wrong for loving one more than the other, it's about looking at a bigger picture. If you don't want to, fine, but don't assume arguments for such things are pointless, stupid, and personal attacks. They're not.

"And I do have to admit, the Dean sob stories would be a little less fun to poke at if the Dean girls didn't dominate the fandom and every poll out there."

Why should people be made to feel guilty or like they are lesser for liking Dean? Because that is exactly what that comment does. Like somehow a fan who likes Dean deserves to be insulted or poked at. It was that poking which has caused the divisions in fandom, not fans liking Dean but certain fans being upset that other fans liked Dean and so needing to find reasons to put them down. To many people Dean is a great, even iconic character and has been played very well by his actor. The simple fact is it wasn't just a 'vocal minority' voting in this poll, alot of those votes probably just came from regular fans.

I don't think the other Anonymous was necessarily suggesting that the people saying they voted bi-Bro were lying, but that there is no way to know who voted Bi-Bro.

There may well have been alot of Dean fans who voted bi-Bro as well. People(including I think yourself) were suggesting that simply because Dean had more votes, then of course the Bi-Bros weren't Dean fans. It may well be that alot of Dean fans voted for Dean and alot of Dean fans voted bi-Bro as well.

" There's a difference between saying "come on! vote BiBro" and saying "you're not a true fan if you don't." "

But, Anonymous, read back through some of these comments and you'll see there were people saying "you're not a true fan" if don't vote for both brothers.

I don't understand how voting one way or another is to the betterment of the fandom; the fandom is neither better nor worse based on the winner of the poll. The fandom is what it is.

Congratulation Dean you deserve this honor. Jensen is a great actor and he hads awesome talent and it shows. Jensen's Dean is the reason I watch Supernatural. I love Jensen/Dean!

I think if they kill Dean off, it's because he's being popular one on the forums and gettng 75% of the attention and I heard Kirpke was hoping Sam would be the one fans would take to, I think if Kripke would have done Jensen being Sam and Jared being Dean like it was going be to start with it things would be different.

"Hate to break it to you, Anonymous, but we don't actually know who voted for who. It's completely possible to vote one way and then leave a comment saying you voted another way."

It definitely is. It's also very cynical to look at someone's comments and assume they are being devious enough to encourage one way and do another. Even in the pettines we're all stooping to, I was giving people that much benefit of the doubt. At the very least, there's no evidence of hypocrisy, and the numbers support that.

And if the poll is so silly, then no one should care who people tell them to vote for because who cares who wins at all if it's so silly? I'm not saying that we're not all acting like children here, because we are, myself included, but let's just be honest with ourselves and say clearly the poll matters to us or we wouldn't even be getting so upset over people encouraging us to vote in opposite directions. The point is, it seems if you look back at who started getting angry at who, it wasn't the BiBro people. It also seems like it should be possible for someone to talk about the "betterment of the fandom" without it being a personal attack on someone who disagrees with them. There's a difference between saying "come on! vote BiBro" and saying "you're not a true fan if you don't."

And I do have to admit, the Dean sob stories would be a little less fun to poke at if the Dean girls didn't dominate the fandom and every poll out there.

"If people are true fans of the show they'd choose both boys over either individually."

Here's your scepter, Majesty, and your crown. Feel free to pass further edicts on what makes a true fan. We, your serfs, will loyally adhere to your dictum.

Or, you know, maybe we'll just enjoy the show about boys shooting monsters in the face with rocksalt, and will avoid the crappy teenage fandom melodrama. Who knows!

Hate to break it to you, Anonymous, but we don't actually know who voted for who. It's completely possible to vote one way and then leave a comment saying you voted another way.

Overall, I'm disinterested in the "betterment of fandom". I'm not involved in "fandom", and I don't care to be. I just like watching the show, and wanted to vote in a silly poll without being lectured to. If you all can't get along like big boys and girls, in spite of your differing opinions, that's no skin off my back.

Le sigh. These Dean fans that fail to see how boringly predicatble some of these polls are are ridiculous.

We all know who most people prefer, as a Sam fan I love that he's the underappreciated brother because it makes him all the more special to me.

Jared does an AMAZING job and seems genuinely one of the nicest people in showbiz.

If people are true fans of the show they'd choose both boys over either individually.

I am a Sam girl to the death but I'd never pick Sam over both boys, they can't be seperated.

The poor Dean sob storys and the constant need for him to win and be defended is boring now and most people are over it. Sadly those vocal few will always make others feel they are in the wrong for thinking both boys should win out over either individually.

Hypocrisy is a hard thing to argue when the people are doing exactly what they're recommending be done. They're saying vote for the betterment of fandom, which they did despite their own personal preferences. So that's actually not hypocritical in any sense of the word. You can say it's untrue to yourself, but that's really a personal decision and saying that that point of view spoils things like that is a little narrow.

No one has to agree with them (and um, clearly few Dean girls did) so it's actually a bit harsh to accuse them of hypocrisy and bullying when they were just making their case the same as anyone else.

I am the one who posted :

"I don't mean to create any discord but What's with the sympathy voting and "brothers are a team" dealio. It's a matter of simple voting on who in our opinion is more hotter of the two? Just an honest expression of who you find more hot both personality and looks-wise.
You guys are making it look like a display-your-diplomacy-skills contest.
Moreover, it's like you guys are pressurizing others to think that a fan preferring one brother over the other is guilty of disloyalty to the fandom.
I am one fanatic of the show who's not gonna repress her right to vote her heart's choice by being carried away by this manipulation whether it's unintentional or not."

which resulted in fangirl's response and the whole pressurizing/bullying debate.
In no way were my intentions to initiate this dispute as is reflected in the opening of the said post. Therefore I don't feel guilty for it at all, because firstly, I had meant what I said & secondly, no one deserves to take the blame for this touchy fandom but the one's who are a part of it themselves.

To Sarah, You guys are not liable at all. It was just another harmless "who's hot" poll until it was despoiled by the fans who think that a show lover has to profess their equal love for both not one character, even though you as fan don't even feel it. That's Hypocrisy! I am happy to see there are others like me who don't go with the flow, just so to integrate with such a rabid bullying crowd when it's not serving any purpose other than repressing their independent thinking process and true preferences.

Oh and YAY!!! Dean Won!

"I'm not sure what this big Dean thread purge thing is all about, but I can attest to the fact that a lot of discussion threads from Seasons 1 and 2 in the Sam threads aren't there anymore, so if there was a purge, then I think the Sam threads were affected as well."

There was definitely a purge on the supernatural.tv forum that didn't affect the Sam board. One day Dean's board had over twice as many posts as the Sam board, a couple days later the Dean board's post count had been cut by more than half and was below the Sam's board count and Sam's board count hadn't gone down at all. This purge affected the John board's post count as well. It also went down by more than half to less than half as many posts as the Sam board whereas previously it had only been about a hundred or so posts behind, while Sam's remained steady. That made it pretty obvious to many Dean fans(don't know about John fans) that they weren't welcome and naturally they stopped posting about Dean.

I know some users PM'd the mods there and were never given any kind of answer or excuse beyond some vague comments on cleaning up the board. I also know there were no more "junk posts" on either Dean's or John's boards than on Sam's.

Maybe it was more of this "pity" stuff. The mods felt sorry for Sam having less than half Dean's posts so they decided to take it upon themselves to even things up(funny how after doing that they've never felt the need to do it to Sam's board...hmmm) but pity votes and pity deletions don't do anyone any favors.

All it did was make alot of fans of the show feel unwelcome. Dean fans aren't the loudest, there just happen to be more of them. It's been that way since not long after the show started, which is why these polls almost always end up the same, with Sam having about a 1/3 of Dean's votes. The blame for that can be laid at no one's feet, unless you want to blame Jensen Ackles for doing a fantastic job making Dean feel like a real person. I didn't know who either of these actors were when I turned on the pilot but I sure knew that, while I loved the brotherly chemistry and it is a huge part of my love for the show, Dean was the reason I was going to be tuning in the next week. He had me at "Don't you talk about her like that". Ackles managed to put so much depth and history and subtlety into what could have been a cliche, over the top line. I'm not going to apologize for that and neither should anyone else have to.

Lilaeth it's people like YOU that make me ashamed. What's it too you that some of Supernaturals most loyal fans may enjoy the occasional wincest fiction? The fact that some of us do doesn't make our love or support of the show any lesser than yours!

DEAN

DEANN

DEANNN

I CAN´T RESIST YOU!!!!!!

Sarah -- thank you so much for your continued support of Supernatural on this site! You all do a wonderful job! I especially liked the Jensen Ackles birthday appreciation post. And having met Jensen in person, I think he's so deserving of all the love and adoration that comes his way. He was incredibly nice and warm and funny. [Not to mention beautiful beyond belief!]

Again, thanks Sarah and CW Source for your support of the Winchester brothers.

well, i am a deangirl since very beginning but in the third season is very hard even for me to choose between them. i don't think that we should compare them. they are brothers, both great and awesome. however,i voted for sam because it made me sad that people didn't vote for him so much.
this is the reason why we are starting to fight. which brother is better?which is sexier, smarter, funnier....and we like the fans should be stick together, not fight or argue.

i also have to say, that sn.tv is a great site and i like it. i always find what i need there and even more...

i am sorry for my english, but it's not my first language. i am just learning...

my opinion is, that they both deserved to win but congratulation dean!i just hope there will be no more contests like this. it took me a while to get through this and realized that it's just fun and we shouldn't be so serious about this.

Ahhhh, some of the comments here have renewed my faith in the fans of this show, and proved that not everyone who watches is a desperate, LiveJournal gay-porn posting fangirl - a demographic that has made me ashamed to be a Supernatural fan for quite some time now, so thank you ladies/gents/whichever, for your mostly well-balanced and intelligent comments!

And for the record, I voted Dean - no competition as far as I'm concerned!

Sarah - I do see your point. However, I get the impression that SPN fans are sick and tired of having these polls. I certainly am! I've lost count of how many polls pitting Sam against Dean I've seen over the past couple of years. And every single poll turns out the same way, no matter what spin you put on it. I just don't really see the point anymore - we all know that Deangirls are the loudest group, and that's unlikely to ever change. It was a foregone conclusion that he would win, even with the option of picking both brothers.

"Isn't that the board that deleted the majority of the Dean posts a while back for vague and unspecified reasons, leaving the Sam posts untouched? I know a ton of people who felt really unwelcome after that, even though I never posted there myself (and never will, after hearing about that mass deletion!)"

I'm not sure what this big Dean thread purge thing is all about, but I can attest to the fact that a lot of discussion threads from Seasons 1 and 2 in the Sam threads aren't there anymore, so if there was a purge, then I think the Sam threads were affected as well. I enjoy Sn.tv because they have a lower threshold for character/actor bashing than most other SN sites of that magnitude. Just because a board requires that its members be respectful of both characters and both actors doesn't mean its forcing everyone to be Bi-Winchester.

Sarah and staffs,

Please, don't fell bad about some reactions. You all are doing a great job!

Thank you for keeping us informed and giving us fun with this poll and also others stuffs.. ;)

Aerie,

I remember the great Dean post purge at SP.TV as well. I kept going over there for a while but I eventually got fed up with the Sam-centricness and the way people lashed out at anyone who was even remotely critical of the show. I still pop by from time to time and I see that it hasn't really changed much except that most of the DeanFans seem to have cleared out. Shame because it really used to be a good site.

Sarah et al,

I think you guys do a great job on this site and I hope you don't let all the petty bickering amongst us Sam and Dean fans bother you too much. The big brackets have been great fun and I've really enjoyed voting and watching to see who wins the various competitions.
Keep up the great work.

SN.tv is the best board I've ever been on for Supernatural stuff, and they're always fair over Sam and Dean stuff and very respectful too.
--Dee

Voted for Sam. He's HOT!

I didn't know about this going on over sn.tv, but I never felt welcomed there, then I even go there anymore.

I think people don't give too much attention to supernaturalfansonline, but is there where I found my news and feel very welcome too.

Dean, of course. Sam's great and I'm thrilled he's joined Dean in the top two spots because they both deserve the recognition. Still, I'm a Dean girl through and through :).

Dean all the way. After meeting them both, Jared def. earned a place in my heart. Such a sweet humble guy, but character wise, Dean Winchester is the muther of characters, EVER. Can't get any finer than that.

"I'm a regular over at Sn.tv and I think Dean fans and Sam fans alike are pretty well received there."

Isn't that the board that deleted the majority of the Dean posts a while back for vague and unspecified reasons, leaving the Sam posts untouched? I know a ton of people who felt really unwelcome after that, even though I never posted there myself (and never will, after hearing about that mass deletion!)

Anyway, I agree with everyone who says this is just a fun poll, and people should just relax!

Dean is just such a great character. I agree, there's no reason not to vote for your favorite brother. Dean's my favorite, and that's who I voted for. It's not about loyalty, it's about honesty.

"I wish this vote had never happened. Like we all didn't know what was going to happen. Like this fandom needs to be divided any more. I can't even imagine how crappy this type of stuff makes Jared Padalecki feel." - Annie

*snort*

Dude, Jared probably couldn't care less. Why should he? He's a grown up man who has a lovely girlfriend, friends and a nice career going for him. To top it all, he is hotter than the avarage male. Not much to feel bad about is there? Even without that he'd have to be an extremely insecure guy to care much what a bunch of fangirls think about the fictional character he portrays... and if that was the case then he'd be in the wrong business. Seriously, when they see stuff like this? They laugh. The laugh at the ridiculousness of it.

"He might as well be nothing more than a cardboard cutout for Jensen to play off of since it seems like that's all people want." - Annie

... and so he pretty much was for most of the first season. Fortunately for all of us he's really upped his game and for him to grow like that in such a short time? Awesome. Go Jared!

Dean gets my vote... if it had been between Jensen and Jared, though, it would have been a draw. Those are some hot boys both in look and personality.

I agree with fangirl regarding this poll. Voting bi-bro doesn't show the fandom or outsiders anything about the fandom. Most people have their favorite brother, and that's great. There are some who like the brothers evenly, and that's great. To each their own.

I also agree with fangirl regarding supernatural.tv, it used to be a fairly "objective" and balanced site about the show and each brother/actor, however, I don't know many DeanFans who feel welcome over there now. That's a shame, too, because it started out as one my favorite sites to visit.

Eliana -- Actually, we did have that third option for the One Tree Hill ladies. Only 13% of voters chose to take it.

I have to admit to being slightly bewildered by the controversy over this bracket -- we're not saying either brother is morally superior to the other, or either guy is a better actor, or either character is more interesting. We're not saying "vote for the one you think is the star." It's a goofy, silly, hotness bracket to pass the time. We do talk about the guys' acting, and how much we admire them as people. We covered the award they got from the military, we talk about their outside projects, and when we talk about the episodes, we're talking about the acting, the writing, and what really makes the show sing. I'm a huge fan of the show, and of the two guys as actors, and I'd think that's pretty obvious to anyone who reads my posts. Need proof? I watched Jensen in Devour, a movie that made no sense. I watched Jared in New York Minute -- a Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen movie. I'm WAY too old to be in THAT demographic.

I guess what I'm saying is you're allowed to be passionate about the show and still have goofy fun with it. I'm sorry if any of you are getting the impression that we're advocating for a fan war -- we're not. And I'd submit that you might be projecting what you get from other sites. We cover the show, and we love it. That's it.

I'd love say BiBro or whatever but I'm a Deangirl, through and thought. The only reason I watch this show at this point is because of Dean Winchester, or rather how Jensen Ackles plays him. He's gone above and beyond even if Dean does get treated like a second class citizen by the writers.

I am a total Samgirl but I didn't bother to vote as I'm tired of such polls. I love Sam for being such an adorable geek. If others think Dean is hotter, it doesn't bother me. My being a Samgirl takes nothing away from Dean and you being a Deangirl takes nothing away from Sam. They are both hot IMO.

lol, you guys take things so seriously.

There is no reason to freak out...

I voted to both because I can't choose between them.

No need to bash Sam or Jared. He IS hot!

Thank you so much for the third option. I just can't choose between two of them (although I love Dean to death).

Voted for both boys. It's stupid to compare them. C'mon fandom. They're a package deal. You can't have one without the other, so why choose between them?

I totally agree with fangirl. I'm not going to succumb to the Supernatural fan bullies either. I'm voting for who I think is the Hottest guy on the CW, and that is Dean/Jensen. I love how some of the comments on here are "well, I'm a Samgirl, but I voted for Both." Sure you did. If you want to vote for Sam, then vote for Sam.

I have no problem if people want to vote for both, that's great. But I do have a problem with other fans telling me how I *should* be voting, for the good of the show? Or voting for Sam/Jared out of pity? Sheesh. Don't tell me what kind of fan YOU think I should be. I'm a loyal fan who simply prefers Dean.

The Dean vs. Sam polls I've seen are split about 70/30 in favor of Dean/Jensen. Which is rather interesting, even when Kripke continues to push Sam the super-duper Demon King/Anti-Christ/savior of the universe with the special "destiny" down my throat. Ironically, the more this happens, the more I love Dean...goofy, sweet, charming, funny, heroic, average (yet HOT!) guy with no special powers, Dean.

Oh, and I don't recall there being a "both" option when the two females from One Tree Hill were up against each other? Why not? Seems a bit unfair.

This is why a lot of people hate the Supernatural fandom. Y'all always fight over the most stupid things and there's a misplaced sense of entitlement and all over the place... right down to the characters.

"Why not take the third option? Sam has had his face rubbed in the dirt enough, thanks very much."

They're fictional characters, I'm pretty sure they don't give a damn about what RL people think.

Seriously, it's a who is hottest poll. What's hot is an individual thing as it all comes down to personal taste. It's not that difficult and there's no need to be "fair" to anyone.

I vote Dean. Sam does absolutely nothing for me (Jared does at times though).

Honestly, it's freaking game.

Dean, of course....

Saaaaam is hot *_*

x x x

sam is every bit as hot as dean always has been for me hotter
dean doesnt deserve to win these polls all the time and it doesnt do sam justice!!
no more polls cw ok enough!!

Jared all the way, he is so ... ... everything

I wish this vote had never happened. Like we all didn't know what was going to happen. Like this fandom needs to be divided any more. I can't even imagine how crappy this type of stuff makes Jared Padalecki feel. He might as well be nothing more than a cardboard cutout for Jensen to play off of since it seems like that's all people want. Which isn't fair to him or the very heart of where this show started.

It is completely okay to have a preference. No one should feel like a bad fan just because they admit to leaning one way or the other... I'm sure the majority of us do, to varying degrees, just like I'm sure there's a small percentage of people who honestly are 50-50 between the boys.

It's okay to feel however we feel. I don't feel evenly split between the boys. I have a preference. I've voted that preference, and I am completely comfortable with my vote. I also don't need to apologize to the guy I didn't vote for. I think he's perfectly nice. But I'm sure if he were real, he would be quick to point out that we don't all need to be clones of one another, and that being true to yourself is the most important thing there is.

And that's all I have to say about that.

There's a huge difference between expressing the opinion that Sam deserves more popularity in the fandom and accusing anyone who doesn't love both brothers equally as being disloyal to the fandom. I'm a Sammy girl, and damn proud of it. And because I adore the guy, I'm genuinely surprised that he doesn't fare better in polls like this. It's just a matter of opinion.

I'm a regular over at Sn.tv and I think Dean fans and Sam fans alike are pretty well received there. The problems generally arise when fans feel compelled to bash one of the characters just because he isn't their favorite. That's when the protectiveness kicks in.

I want to be honest for myself so I choose Dean~ it's not fair for em being compared because they're both hot.. what measures is their attitude and the characteristics of each characters not just their faces..

Dean is so cute and hot.

I am seriously embarrassed at this fandom. We have all seen the vs polls. We all know who wins every single one. Why not take the third option? Sam has had his face rubbed in the dirt enough, thanks very much.

::rolls eyes::

BOTH!! I could never choose between them!!!
--Dee

Jensen forever
(L)
Vote in Dean \o/

COME ON! JARED IS THE HOTTEST FOR SURE!!!!!!

It's simple folks... follow your heart and vote the way you wish. :))) No one is pressuring anyone to vote a certain way (and there is no disloyalty simply because you might like one more over the other). The truth is that ever since the very first "who's hotter" poll (and all the rest to follow) the results have always swayed about 40% for Jared/Sam and about 60% for Jensen/Dean.

It =would= have been a great message to send if the third option got 90% votes... showing the fandom is a united front supporting BOTH Winchesters equally, especially since this is a Sam/Dean poll and NOT a Jared/Jensen poll.

I am glad that someone had the decency to provide the third option, otherwise there would be no suprise in the results anyways... 40/60... like it has always been.

I'm a Dean girl, but they are both so lovely that i cant take sides!

xx

Dean es el mejor en todos los sentidos y supera arrolladoramente a Sam en cuanto a carisma y sex appeal.

A Sammy también se le quiere, pero Dean es DEAN.

Dean, of course ñ_ñ

I can´t choose!!
The two boys are perfect!! Imposible *_*

I gotta vote for Sammy
He took my breath away this season & Jared's acting was superb in it

I love you Sam!

I couldn't choose...my mind totally thought Dean but then I thought nooo...I cant do that! Then I wanted to vote Sam but I couldnt do that either... I cant choose any of them without feeling bad about not choosing the other lol.. :D

Golly goshness.
That was a toughie.
So obviously .. i sat on the fence hehe.

I voted for Dean because he's the one I watch the show for. I'm Sam nuetral. Don't love him, don't dislike him.

"Sorry to hear you've been driven away by a portion of SPN's fandom. personally, I've distanced myself from this site and don't post her much anymore. I've found TVguide.com is a wonderful SPN fan gathering site: try Bardicvoices blog or Rose Rambles blog or Laceym or Oceantriana (to name a few of the many). :-) Those fans are much more respectful of differing opinions. "

Thank you for the kind words and I will definitely check out the blogs you recommend.

But I just want to be clear that I don't have a problem with this site per se. It's one of the few that I still read on a regular basis.

I am a complete Deangirl (as are the people I know who have left fandom.) My issue is primarily with LJ and with sites like Supernatural.Tv where I've pretty much been told that if I don't love Sam/Jared as much as Dean/Jensen (which sorry but I just don't) then I don't belong in this fandom.

I understand that some of these fans are being protective of Sam and/or Jared, but that kind of bullying makes fandom feel like junior high school. To be honest it also makes me like Sam much less than I would if his fans didn't spend so much time and energy whining about how he should be more popular.

Like I said in my last post, people like who they like for their own reasons. There's no right or wrong here and I'm sick of being told by the posters here or any place else that voting for both brothers is the correct answer to this kind of poll. Again just to be clear, I am not talking about the mods on this site because I think having the both brothers option is completely legitimate and necessary since obviously there are people who love both brothers equally.

I am talking about the posters who keep insisting that we all vote bibro.

Please feel free to email if you wish to discuss this further. I can be reached at fangirl@fastmail.fm

Sam
Sam
Sam

I love you

OMG! I don't know TT.TT
My heart...

hey vote for dean to win
he is so hot
vote vote vote
because i will be voting for dean 24/7
sorry sam but dean is smoking hot
love nibbi

Fangirl,

Sorry to hear you've been driven away by a portion of SPN's fandom. personally, I've distanced myself from this site and don't post her much anymore. I've found TVguide.com is a wonderful SPN fan gathering site: try Bardicvoices blog or Rose Rambles blog or Laceym or Oceantriana (to name a few of the many). :-) Those fans are much more respectful of differing opinions.

"it's like you guys are pressurizing others to think that a fan preferring one brother over another is guilty of disloyalty to the fandom."

i think it's because there have already been more than enough Dean or Sam who's hotter contests, everyone already knows it's dean. Another one between Sam and Dean is unnecessary.

Dean it´s really hot!!

Oh please! Nobody "deserves" anything. These are fictional characters.

They don't need pity-votes, guilty-votes or any other kind of fandom political-statement-making- votes.

If you love Sam best, vote for him.

If you love Dean best, vote for him

If you genuinely can't choose between the two brothers, then vote for them together.

It's really not that complicated.

It's not diplomacy, it's the truth. I don't find either brother hottee than the other, and I find them both hottest together. I for one am very grateful for the third option, as I have never been able to choose and couldn't have voted otherwise.

Guys we can't one of the Winchester win...

They both desirve to win ...

Please vote for 3rd option

^^

"You guys are making it look like a display-your-diplomacy-skills contest. Moreover, it's like you guys are pressurizing others to think that a fan preferring one brother over another is guilty of disloyalty to the fandom."

That my anonymous friend has been the way this fandom has operated since almost the very beginning. I suppose it is a reaction to Dean/Jensen's disproportionate popularity. Too bad people can't just be allowed to like whomever they like best. It is also why a lot of people I know, including myself, have very little to do with the fandom these days. I stopped succumbing to peer-pressure in grade school.

I don't mean to create any discord but What's with the sympathy voting and "brothers are a team" dealio. It's a matter of simple voting on who in our opinion is more hotter of the two? Just an honest expression of who you find more hot both personality and looks-wise.
You guys are making it look like a display-your-diplomacy-skills contest.
Moreover, it's like you guys are pressurizing others to think that a fan preferring one brother over another is guilty of disloyalty to the fandom.
I am one fanatic of the show who's not gonna repress her right to vote her heart's choice by being carried away by this manipulation whether it's unintentional or not.

There is NO FREAKING WAY am I choosing between them. One without the other is not an option.

Awww Sammy needs more votes. While I love them both, Sam'spuppy dog looks always get me!

It's also a difficult choice for me, though, I must say, I'm defiantly a Sammy's girl.
He gets my vote!!!
VOTE SAMMY!!!

no trouble choosing for me. Dean all the way.

Instead of focusing on THIS superficial bulls**t, how about we focus on their CAREERS?

Jared is rumored to be taking the lead in the upcoming remake of "Friday the 13th" - follow the link for a tiny bit of info, and head on over to IMDB for the rest.
http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=43167

And Jensen's been steadily promoting "Ten Inch Hero" (which DOES star other actors from the CW), and it might help it get SEEN if those in charge around here actually focus on things other than "HOTTIE BRACKETS".

Know what I'm saying?

Substance, darlings, let's have some substance.

Promoting their WORK leads to more EXPOSURE - and then you can have MORE "hottie brackets" and more polls and put even MORE focus on what they look like.

YAY!

I am a sammy girl. So i voted for sam.

They are both gorgeous, but i am surprised sam has only 13% of the votes. He deserves much more.

:)

*lollerskates to the top of Mount LOL to plant the Lulz Flag*

For obvious reasons, this amuses me to no end, and while I'm a bit more of Samgirl, I took advantage of the 'Both' option. :3

Both, either- Sorry Sam! I'd love to vote for you, because you are wonderful and gorgeous, but I need to be truthful, and the truth is I can never make up my mind!

Congratulations,Dean! Though Sammy/Jay whom I vote for is always my favorite, I am glad of Dean's win.

Puh, lucky third optino *grin*. They are both hot in their unique way.....

Have always been bi-Winchester, thanks for the third option!

its so hard to choose !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but I am a Dean girl so um.... there went my vote

It's quite possible that the third option should have been 'Metallicar'.

Just sayin'.

:)

I CAN'T CHOOSE BETWEEN THE 2 EVEN THOUGH I'M A SUPER MEGA DEAN GIRL

But the choice of both, doesn't really make sense. Even if the both vote wins, the true winner will be the one brother whom has more votes than the other.

Dean is the hottest, sexiest, most gorgeous Winchester. I love Dean!

Am I the only one who thinks that the Scott brothers got TOTALLY ripped off? There is noooooo way these two nobodys are hotter than any of them!

Sam without Dean? Dean without Sam? No, no there is no one without the other - there must be both, together! :)

And why choose? Both is just so much better! :D

I'm so happy that they got here!

However, I can't choose between the brothers.It seems just unfair. They're a team.
Thank you so much for adding the last option:

"I can't choose! I won't! You can't make me! They're both ridiculously (and equally) hot!"

As a obsessive, die hard fan of Supernatural my heart wants to vote from them both. But my eyes want to vote for Dean. Sorry Sam.

Kudos whoever made the third option available, LOL

Winchester Brother FTW!!!

Thank you SO much, Sarah and CW Source for hearing our plea and not making us Winchester lovers choose between our two heroes!!! (as if we could!) You totally ROCK!!! We love you!!!

Dean and Sam are a team. Their personalities balance each other. How can I not vote for both?

:D

Tom Welling should have been here too.

Support Welling for Superman

http://www.petitiononline.com/TW4SinJL/petition.html

they are so hard to choose from but however i will have to choose jensen ackles aka dean

I'm just happy that the guys likely never see these silly things. I'm not choosing between them, even though I'm also a Sam girl.

Vote in jensen pleaseee

CW, you took all the fun out of it! Now everyone's gonna vote "both" to avoid a fanwar.

sam and dean all the way. there's no way to choose

I like Dean better with his looks but I like Sam's personality better, he's such a great guy. So I voted for the third option.

I would rather sell my soul to the CRD than choose between them! ARGH!!!!!!!

Where is the colt????

Oh they are both SO attractive! Hooray for the third option!

how can you choose?

voted for the third option although i am a sam girl i am tired of these sam v dean stuff

I CAN NOT CHOOSE BETWEEN THESE TWO!!! (even though I should vote for Sammy...)