A dunk to Cheney isn't torture

I'm shocked.SHOCKED!

Didn't the US prosecute as War Crimes submitting our soldiers to waterboarding after WWII or the Korean War?

Is there anybody that in their all American red-white & blue heart doesn't believe water boarding was "not" a technique used to gain intel from the enemy combatants before being transported from secret prisons to Guantanamo, Cuba? We may never be able to prove it, as Bush&Co. managed to bury the truth, but we know it in our hearts. Those prisoners will either be silenced by the death sentence or placed in other prison environments where the truth will never be told. I hope one day in the future, somehow the truth is brought out and any body that sanctioned the acts of war crimes face the same unfair justice the detainee bill has placed against those same enemy combatants! There will be a final accounting - either here or after this life. Good luck George, Richard and Don!!!

"You think Dick Cheney's going to slip up on something like that?"

So you are saying he is covering something up and that he will slip up, but not on this particular form of torture?

Well let's tie Chaney to a board and submerge him long enough to think he's drowning and then ask him again if waterboarding is torture.

WOW!!

These comments by Cheney hit right at the heart of the NeoCon thought process.

What happens if America goes to war with another country??

I shudder to think what will happen to our soldiers who might become POW's thanks to the neonuts.

We are supposed to abide by a higher standard,what happened to that thought process???

I guess we've become just like the so-called "terrorists".

The current administration is, by far, the most corrupt administration to "serve" in the White House.

Dick Cheney is, by and large, the biggest offender, next to Karl Rove, in the tactics an policies implemented in the name of serving the American people. This is not about Republicans vs. Democrats, this is about blatant stretches of any and all domestic and international laws.

Bush's invasion and occupation of Iraq is tantamount to Saddam Hussein's attempted occupation of Kuwait during the original Gulf War.

The United Nations called for disarmament and the discovery and destruction of weapons of mass destruction, wmds. The U.N. Resolutions did not call for the United States to invade and systematically occupy the sovereign country of Iraq.

President Bush originally called for Hussein to step down and leave the country or else the U.S. would invade.

Not only were there no wmds found, but Hussein was captured, as were most of his inner circle and his sons were both killed. Hussein was no angel, we all know this man was despicable and committed atrocities, but we need to keep our eye on the ball here.

Hussein was neutralized, no wmds were found. What the hell is the U.S. still doing in Iraq?

Is it possible that certain people are profiting from Halliburton's no bid contracts to serve the military? Is it possible that the rebuilding of Iraq, by American concerns are lining some Washingtonians, cum Texans, pockets?

When will the American people stop drinking the Kool-Aid and start asking for answers? Our young American service men and women are being slaughtered in Iraq and countless unaccounted for billion$ are being spent; FOR WHAT?

Funny your headline says exactly the opposite from what the Vice President accually said. Do you think you can get another issue for the Democrats use for the upcoming election? I saw this morning that the Tribune corp is in trouble and losing readership. Now you can see why. We already have a liberal paper in Chicago we don't need another one. The Col Is dead.

I once heard the great comic writer Jane Wagner say that that's the funny thing about cynicism -- no matter how cynical you are, you can just never keep up.

Sorry Jim on Fox News he said what he said its on tape. Plus for all of you I want all Terrorist dead. But loud and clear from this Veteran torture does not work or ever will. Plus you know have put all our troops at risk. Anybody who thinks torture works ask John M. former POW

Umm, so now Cheney is saying that as a means of getting prisoners to talk, we've been "dunking" them in water?

"Tell us what we want to know, or we'll throw you in the pool!" Riiiighhht...

This administration condones torture and we all know it now. This is a shameful chapter in the history of this country.

The problem with this administrationis they are so out of touch with reality. Look they are using interviewing techniques from the Salem witch trials.

When are the idiot bleeding hearts going to wake and realize that these people are out to destroy us, they are not being dunked in water over parking tickets. In the liberal mind, if we just sat down with the terrorists and talked things out, everything will be all better. How soon people forget, how soon they forget.

Jim Leahy,

Nope --he said it. The following is from the White House's own transcript of the question and response by Cheney:

"Q Would you agree a dunk in water is a no-brainer if it can save lives?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: It's a no-brainer for me, but for a while there, I was criticized as being the Vice President "for torture." We don't torture. That's not what we're involved in. We live up to our obligations in international treaties that we're party to and so forth. But the fact is, you can have a fairly robust interrogation program without torture, and we need to be able to do that.

And thanks to the leadership of the President now, and the action of the Congress, we have that authority, and we are able to continue to program."

It's the definition of "fairly robust" that I fear will further deteriorate the reputation of the US.

Why does this surprise anyone. We are talking about the Bush administration who believes the laws do not apply to the President. Bush, and Cheney for that matter, claim to be god fearing christians, but there actions are anything but. There will be a judgment day for both of them, it just won't come soon enough. And people wonder why we are so hated in the middle east, you can thank your leaders for thier immoral actions. Do unto others Mr. President, do unto others.

Why does everyone have such a problem with this? Dunking is a tried and true method of good ol' American interrogation, steeped in history, and proven to be effective. Just look at all the witches our forefathers caught using the same technique!

Why, we should bring back the rack just for good measure!

Jim Leahy,
Explain how the headline is the exact opposite of what VP of USA Cheney said?

Scott Hennen: "Would you agree a dunk in the water is a no-brainer if it can save lives?"

VP of USA Cheney: "Well, it's a no-brainer for me...We don't torture. That's not what we're involved in."

Title of Article: "A Dunk to Cheney Is Not Torture"

Paraphrase: We don't torture. We should be allowed to dunk. Others don't think so.

I would like to see all Congressmen/women who think waterboarding is not torture experience waterboarding for 30 seconds.

Now you see why they keep Mr.20% approval hidden most of the time.

Cheney and Bush have become the most irrelevant pair to occupy the White House in history.

Even partisan hacks like RRD and Splendito are talking about becoming Nader's Raider's!!!!

That poor Jim Leahy...still with the 30 percent of people that believe Bush & Co. can do no wrong. Don't like the Trib, Jimbo? Here's a solution...don't read it.

John E. Stated:
"I shudder to think what will happen to our soldiers who might become POW's thanks to the neonuts."

Yeah, you're right. During the 20th Century all of our enemies (Japan, Germany, North Korea, North Vietnam...)treated our POWs in perfect accord with the standards of the Geneva Conventions.

(please add sarcastic voice inflections and facial expressions)

Common Sense,

"When are the idiot bleeding hearts going to wake and realize that these people are out to destroy us, they are not being dunked in water over parking tickets."

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that ALL of these people are guilty? Of course not, because these POTENTIAL terrorists are locked away without any due process indefinitely. No information is released about them other than the selective leaks from the government(you abore leaks, right, just like the GOP contends?) No one wants to hug terrorists, but we also don't simply accept the assertions that everyone they catch under any circumstance is guilty, given this government's long-standing lack of credibility given previous assertions.

Most importantly, though, what is seemingly lost in this discussion (but previously illuminate by Dale Peters) is that torture is ineffective. It might look and sound tough to you "they're guilty because George Bush says so" folks but far more often than not it leads to disinformation to make the torture stop. This is not an effective means of gaining information!! It simply plays well politically, and that, unfortunately, speaks horrible volumes about what direction this great nation of ours is heading.

Cheney, Bush, etc. keep saying, "We don't torture." Worded exactly that way. Or, "This country doesn't torture." Or "America doesn't torture."

I want to hear one of them say, "We do not torture prisoners, and we do not allow any of our interrogators to torture prisoners." Worded exactly that way.

They're using the "I did not have sex with that woman" method of lying. Someone needs to force them to commit to a subject and an object in their statements about torture.

All you liberal pacifists have kept repeating the same party propaganda long enough you all can not tell the difference between fact and fiction.

John E. above writes "I shudder to think what will happen to our soldiers who might become POW's thanks to the neonuts."

We already know you ignorant fool because the terrorists have already burned, beaten, tortured, and usually killed our troops and/or citizens. That is why they are terrorists. That is why we are fighting them. If there was a muslim extremist at your house today they would slaughter your family because you are not a "believer". We are "infidels" to them whether we are in Iraq or in our homes.

Whether you think waterboarding is torture or not then fine but I have little sympathy for the temporary "torture" they may have to endure if it prevents further deaths to our troops and citizens.

Someone else commented above why are we still in Iraq? Whether it was a mistake or not to be there is certainly debatable but you leave now and you have muslim extremist haven where they will set up camp and plot to eliminate us and all the non-muslim believers. This is not rocket science people.

The war against terrorism is ugly without a doubt and as soon as the media stops making our troops fight this like a police action instead of a war then we could probably actually get out of Iraq.

Instead though it is more important to take shots and complain at everyone and every thing rather than offer real solutions.

waterboarding isn't any more cruel than what fraternities do to pledges (at least what mine did to me and my class)

The sad thing is that these people, ie; Cheney, Rove and Bush, are not going to be held accountable for what their actions have done to this country. Sadder still that the Republican Party may still retain control of the House and Senate after supporting these felons. Where is the character? Where are the brains? The integrity? Waterboarding indeed. How can we even be discussing this??

I understand that waterboarding is the forcing of water into someone's lungs until they think they are drowning. Then they force it out and do it all over again. I never heard it described as "dunking" someone tied to a board. It should be outlawed. The French and many other countries outlawed it centuries ago.

Mr.Leahy,welcome to The Swamp,where if you disagree or want to see our country protected,the vast majority of people that post here go bonkers!
I was watching an old re-run of Gun Smoke and Marshall Dillon had to water board a bad guy in a horses water troft to find out where Ms.Kitty was being held for ransom.It worked!Marshall Dillon and Festus saved Ms.Kitty from the bad guys.
See swampers,even the writers of that corny old show knew good vs. evil.....wake-up you nitwits!!!
Paulo

Hey Raving Loon and John E.,
I have enjoyed reading you guys bashing the NeoCons.
They've been kicking the Dems around for ten years now,and as we all learned during the 2004 Presidential Election (John Kerry),the Neocons don't understand anything other than being punched in the mouth.KEEP IT GOING GUYS!!!

C.Morris,here's my latest song choice,what do you think???

Green Day
"It's A Holiday For The NeoCons"

Hear the sound of pouring rain
Coming down like an Armageddon flame (Hey!)
The shame
The ones who died without a name

Hear the dogs howling out of key
To a hymm called "Faith and Misery" (Hey!)
And blame,the company lost the war today

I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
On holiday - George W. has gone to Crawford again

Hear the drum pounding out of time
Another protester has crossed the line (Hey!)
To find,the moneys on the other side

Can I get another Amen? (Amen!)
There's a flag wrapped around a score of the neocon men
A gag,a plastic bag on a monument

I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
On holiday - George W. has gone to Crawford again

(Hey!)
"The representative named Cheney has the floor"

"Sieg Heil to the President Gasman
Bombs away is your punishment
Pulverize the Eiffel Towers
Who criticize our government
Bang Bang goes the broken glass and
Kill all the gays that don't agree
Trails by fire,setting fire"

It's not a way that's meant for me
Just cause,just cause,because all the neocon's are the real outlaws

I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
This is the dawning of the rest of our lives

This is our lives,neocon leaders on holiday in Crawford again

Have a great weekend guys,I'm off to my sorority halloween party!!!!!!!!

In 1947 the U.S. convicted a former Japanese soldier of war crimes. He was sentenced to 15 years in a military prison. His crime:

He used waterboarding and simulated drowning during the interrogation of a U.S. soldier. The tribunal clearly found these techniques to be torture.

As a former U.S. soldier, and veteran of Iraq, I was always trained to treat prisoners humanely, and in accordance with the values of our country, and in respect to the international treaties that attempt to prevent some of the cruelties of war.

When will these cowardly neo-cons learn? No matter how scared we are of terrorists, torture is wrong, it does not produce reliable intelligence, and it weakens and ashames the character of our nation. Then again, since 99% of the neo-con gang avoided any combat military duty, it is no surprise that they are so naive and irresponsible.

To John E. -
If you are so worried about what may happen to our Soldiers that become POWs in future conflicts, you need look no further than the current one. Do you so easily forget about the captured Soldiers and civilians that were eviscerated and beheaded (by a knife wielded in a deliberate sawing motion, no less)? I'd hate to be tricked into thinking that I'm drowning, but I'd much less like to have my head slowly sawed off while I die an excruitiating death.
I can't advocate "waterboarding" as a way to obtain information (military doctrine teaches that information gleaned from torture is generally false, anf therefore reduces the effectiveness of torture as a method). The "robust methods" Chaney may refer to include sleep deprivation, a very effective system of gleaning information from a captive without doing long-term harm.
I don't adore this administration, and I often think they fumbled a winnable war and allowed it to turn into a potentially enormous failure, but we need to stay on the topic. Chaney isn't the brightest bulb on the tree, but he isn't entirely wrong, either.

I read the other day that Haliburton keeps 10% more of the gross on their Iraq contracts than any other company.

Perhaps we should dunk the vice president for minute and see what he cares to tell us about that.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people think we can "just be friends". Honestly, these people are not just passersby on the highway giving you the bird. These people want every last American dead! They don't care if we suffer or not. They would just as soon skin your children in front of you and then do the same to you.
If torturing (and I mean that in the fullest interpretation of the word) gives the government enough information to take these psychos out and keep my children safe, I don't care how they do it or how extreme they are with it.
Why do you think the CIA was formed? So there would be humans out there who were willing to do inhumane things to those who would do the same to YOUR children and mine.

Ahem...Ahem...Just a reminder

American soliders --->torture--->iraqi innocents---->Abu Gharib!!!

Has any one forgotten, then why are you suprised!!!

That dick can say whatever he wants to say but the truth is what he is saying is already being done over and over again, but the world cannot see that...were are just the population as a whole, were are fed with propaganda...lies...lies...and lies. So lets just sit back and watch, since were are powerless.

Truth is if the UN couldnt stop America from going to war with iraq, then the rest of us...waste of time

Bush Admin got an agenda...let him do what he gotta do, but his time will end, and the power will move on to the next...

let them talk now, sooner they'll be sorry.

Remeber Hitler...ya...in the end...he shot himself!!!

Come on people nothing wrong with dunking now and again, also i would add that suspects should be thrown in rivers and if they drown they are innocent and if they float their terrorist. I have no doubt that history will show that the actions taken by Bush&Co are up there with the inquistion.

torture is wrong. the administration needs to realize that and not do it. simple as that. but these people do want to murder us and they did well before our so called secret prisons. still the republicans are the better party when combating terrorism.

"In the liberal mind, if we just sat down with the terrorists and talked things out, everything will be all better," said Common Sense.

In this liberal's mind, it seems like getting reliable information would be worth a little patience. Torture somebody enough, and he will say anything, accuse anybody, just to get the torture to stop. This has been proven again and again, whether the target was heretics in Spain, witches in Salem, or terrorists in Iraq.

I know that they're out to destroy us. More particularly, Osama Bin Laden organized a plot to fly airplanes into the World Trade Center. Remember Osama Bin Laden? Over five years later, he's still out there as far as we know.

In any case, even if torture provided accurate information on terrorists that were directly involved in planning the events of September 11, 2001, I would be against it.

Because the good guys don't torture. That's always been something that the bad guys did in the books I read, and the movies I saw.

Are we the bad guys?

"These comments by Cheney hit right at the heart of the NeoCon thought process.

What happens if America goes to war with another country??"

JohnE,

Yea of little faith!

The other part of their 'thinking' is that;

1. We will win the war quickly due to our military might.
2. No American prisoners will be taken due to our military might.
3. We will all be home by Christmas due to our military might.

Cheney reminds me of 'Alex' in CLockwork Orange, who ended up being water boarded by his former stooges.
Hilarious dark irony.

Here's a song for you, Dick; Singin' in the Rain.

The USA government has caused a lot of hate and despise of the American people, rightly or wrongly. It has arrogantly shown the rest of the world that it can do anything it likes by using the phrase' to protect the American people' when infact it got 'nothing to do with that at all!'It is just like saying to the world, Americans are peace-loving and want freedom' well, well, that is not unique to your desire but it is the hope of every nation and every human being, unless the Americans think others are not and that they are the 'chosen ones!'

"When are the idiot bleeding hearts going to wake and realize that these people are out to destroy us, they are not being dunked in water over parking tickets. In the liberal mind, if we just sat down with the terrorists and talked things out, everything will be all better. How soon people forget, how soon they forget."

I don't fear "The Terrorists" and I am unwilling to suspend the rights and freedoms of others for any measure of safety. I fear loosing my rights and freedoms more than I fear anything any little terrorist can do in a feeble attempt to "destroy us". I'd rather die this moment, than live as a slave to fear. Terrorists should be faced with strength and courage and the promise that no matter what damage they think they can do, The United States of America and it's rights and freedoms will never fall!
What people are forgetting is the strength and courage to stand up for freedom! There are 300 Million of us. Don't let them scare you! Don't let them take away that which our ancestors fought so hard and gave their lives for!

Common Sense:

You idea is not "common sense" at all. It is wrong. In all wars everywhere, at all times lives "could" be saved if information is obtained. But mankind as a whole -- and thankfully virtually all of the US government outside the White House -- agrees there should be not torture. Think about it. Are you so afraid of a terrorist attack that you would become a monster? And to live, exactly, for what?

""This country doesn't torture, we're not going to torture," Bush told reporters Friday. "

Reminiscent of;
"I am not a crook." (We knew he was)
"I never had sex with that woman." (We knew he did)
"This country doesn't torture." (Yikes)

They are really off their game.

According to my count there are now THREE burning bags of poo on the Republicans Halloween front porch.

Foley
Maliki
Torture

Bush and company caught America during a vulnerable time. We were attacked by Terrorist.
Ok. I can safely say 100% of Americans backed him going into Afghanistan. Heck I left my job to go down to the mall to look for the so called planes coming down to kick some butt.

Suddenly... Iraq was our focus. I had to ask why because I knew better than the reports given to the people. And then to believe we would send our men/women into a country like we did with WMD should have revealed the truth to everyone. Unfortunately, they used the emotion of 911 to try and make people feel guilty. "Support your Troops". Yeah... I support them because they have no choice, but I sure didn't support the war. I didn't need further information and it is sad that any of us did. It was just too obvious once you get past the emotions. Of course people were going to support the war because they didn't want their sons/daughters treated like veterans that were not supported when they came home.
Shock and Awe. For the "Shock" was that people actually bought into this WMD crap and "Awe" was followed by what maybe considered a curse word beginning with a "D". I said this because the fool me once now as actually believing in this "Democracy" stuff. Even today with the low ratings America is failing to see how much of a hypocrite we are as a nation.
We approve of torture, but don't let it happen to our soldiers.
We approve attack and destroying a nation because of treatment to its people, like we are perfect or something. I don't care what race you are America doesn't do as well as we think. Better than other places? Yes, but that doesn't excuse what we should be able to do.
We won't support another families, education, health, etc...
BUT... we are supporting just that in Iraq.
We will run a president through impeachment for his own poor infidelity choice that hurt no one, yet we won't do it while this presidents orders are destroying lives of our soldiers, their families, etc...
When they comeback do you honestly believe they will receive those benefits? NO!
Of course Bush won't be here.
And if the next president is a Democrat or independent it will appear as though they aren't doing anything. The reality is we won't be able to afford the care these sacrificing soliders need because we are so busy wasting it on LIES!!!

Cheny deserves better than being waterboarded and humiliated by his own countrymen. How could American intelligence or military officers so used to accepting his word as their opinion, be effective?

A man of his standing deserves extraordinary rendition.

I'm a solid Republican who believes in deep values this country was founded upon. I believe Republicans have stood for values that are unshakeable and ethics that do not change to suit the situation. Bush and Co either stopped being Republicans or they never were. If all this were not so trajic and scarry we could almost joke that Bush is a plot by the liberals to embarass Republicans.

WAKE UP AMERICA!!! If you feel that we as a Nation have been deceived by these criminals then do something about it on November 7, 2006 before they further restrict your ability to vote and hold them accountable. If you want to know "THE TRUTH, "THE WHOLE TRUTH", AND "NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH" i can assure you you will not get it with the NEO-CON NEW WORLD ORDER TOTALITARIAN REPUBLICAN controlled White House, Senate, and Congress. Their goal is simple (it is TOTAL CONTROL of you, me, and everyone on PLANET EARTH). You do not even realize they have highjacked and stolen your country from you under the cover of a fraudulent war based on fabricated propaganda including fabricated audiotapes and videotapes constructed the NSA, CIA, and Pentagon's Information Warfare and Information Exploitation offices. You have been spoonfed the lies they want you to believe and you have believed them until now. WAKE UP & TAKE YOUR COUNTRY BACK FROM THOSE THAT HAVE STOLEN IT FROM YOU. YOU HAVE ONE CHANCE TO HOLD THESE CRIMINALS ACCOUNTABLE BY EVICTING, TERMINATING THE EMPLOYMENT OF, AND "VOTING OUT" 100% OF THE NEO-CON NEW WORLD ORDER TOTALITARIAN HOUSE & SENATE REPUBLICANS WHILE "VOTING IN" 100% OF THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES FOR A RESTORATION OF A DEMOCRATIC DEMOCRACY.

NEO-CON NEW WORLD ORDER TOTALITARIAN REPUBLICANS YOU ARE FIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How long before ordinary Americans are being "non-tortured" into false confessions, in some secret dungeon, then ordered killed by some kangaroo court? It all sounds like the old Soviet Union!

Lester Ness

The real tragedy is , What is going to happen to our troops , If we do this , anything goes God Save our Troops

"Do you think you can get another issue for the Democrats use for the upcoming election?"

Wake me up when they balance a budget, reduce the size of government, avoid a foreign entanglement.

Lester Ness

TORTURE!? The swine who do it NEVER call it that. But they can't hide their delight in it, however much they disavow it: "Dunk in the water" is so cute, so jocose, you can tell that Cheney would get great pleasure out of doing it himself, and would find it ever so funny so to induce the fear of dying in some (preferably innocent) victim. Like Bush's twisted little smirk when he talks about killing people, he just can't conceal it--and sees no reason to.

Water torture is probably the tip of the ice berg. While the US may not torture on mass, it's certainly more widespread than officials will admit.

It would seem that most things go, from electrocution to water torture, and in more extreme cases death.

The route to hell is paved with good intentions.

The president and his comrades in the White House are among the worst people to have lived on earth. One of the least offenses these sick people are guilty of is making a mockery of democracy by "saying" they support what the people are asking to be done, then "doing" something completely different. Here's another case of the sick truth slipping out, and a follow-up by White House officials defining A as A. It's just some kind of smoke and mirrors distractionary tactic that we're not supposed to call them on.

This really shouldn't be a lireral/conservative issue. These guys are about as conservative as they get http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_4269.shtml
and they clearly get it.
"Those who fail to see the dire gravity of this legislation and who prefer to take refuge in the naive partisan belief that President Bush and the Republican Congress would never abuse this tremendous power, should contemplate well the fact that both the White House and Congress may very possibly change to Democrat control in the near future. Then will the supporters of the Bush administration's grasp for power have a leg to stand on to even protest, let alone stop, dictatorial exercise of the same power under a Democrat regime run by Clinton, Feinstein, Boxer, Pelosi, Schumer, and the like?"

The GOP is giving a whole new meaning to the phrase "give them enough rope..." What in God was Cheney thinking. Senility check time...

I wonder whether a dunk in the water would help us see if Cheney is telling the truth? Seems like a great idea. Let's dunk Bush and Rumsfeld too!

Well.....at last the sub-human Cheney has shown itself for what it really is. This administration will go down in history as the administration of "Shock and Awful". Truly disgusting cretins!

I'm always amazed about all the hubub about torture and prisoner abuse during wartime. The enemy decapitates people. Any argument about we better treat prisoners well so they'll treat our folks well is just stupid. Nobody..I mean nobody follows "rules of war" anymore. The phrase itself is ridiculous. WWI and WWII brought about total war meaning everything is fair game. You can't put the genie back in the bottle, but it never really was in bottle to begin with. If you talk to any real WWII vets that saw real action, you know that we did a lot of nasty things in WWII and the other side would be lucky if they were being tortured because it meant they were still alive. Naked poses and dogs and water....give me a break. High school hazing is just as bad if not worse. Try this..I woke up during an out patient procedure to watch and feel as a doctor shoved sucessively larger tubes down my throat to rip open my esophagus which had grown shut. It sucked big time..but it sure beats being dead and that's what I don't get about any of this controversy. If the same guys being posed naked with dogs or being dunked in water had been shot in the field for looking cross-eyed at our guys, their death would barely register a blip if at all on the national conscience. How many hundreds of families have been wiped out as collateral damage from our bombs without it registering any controversy back home at all? Yet, a couple of our guys kill some folks out of revenge, and some others use soft-torture interrogation techniques and it's a huge controversy. Yes, these things are bad, but killing thousands of people is far worse and yet everyone seems be okay with it...what the bleep is going on? Are we looking at the same world?
War is criminal. War is insanity given free reign upon the world. Once you are willing to kill to achieve a goal, all manner of smaller horrors will follow. Maybe we should all be upset about the killing on all sides. Then once that stops, we can refine our ethics to discourage rough treatment. We seem to be obsessed with the splinter in our finger and ignoring the 2x4 protruding from our chest.

Every now and then some nut like Common Nonsense reminds us that these people are not being tortured for traffic violations. No kidding. Some of them are being tortured just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's why for 230 years in this country we had due process, to find out whether or not a person was in fact guilty of a crime. This has worked pretty well and would still work better than torture. Protection of the innocent is more important than getting so-called actionable intelligence out of detainees, especially considering the quality of the information we've been able to get so far. Next time it could be you or someone you care about and how would you feel about that?

look at the brighter side in afew days vote...

Hmmm.. I wonder if Dick is aware of a old CIA Project Called "MK-Ultra".. That alone brought torture to completely new heights.

Here's a couple of sites for it... http://www.mkultra.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA
http://peyote.com/jonstef/mkultra.htm

Thanx

Well, isn't this interesting?

It seems to me that there are so many who are against the way we have been treating 'enemy combatants'. Look at it this way: if the situation were reversed, we wouldn't get a trial, only torture and execution.

About the reference to the salem witch trials... I hope that was not serious and was loaded with sarcasm.

You cannot really say with a straight face that Bush and Cheney are 'irrelevant'; if this were the case, you wouldn't have commented on this article because it would have never been written, and a lot of critics would be out of a job, because no one would listen to them.

And on torture: If I were tortured in an attempt to get information, I might make a false confession in order to get the torture to stop. This concept may hold true for anyone else, so torture seems to be an ineffective means of acquiring accurate information.

And in response to Cheney's remarks: I lean towards interpreting them as "We don't perform harsh torture, only mild torture".

I would agree that he [Cheney] should not be allowed to speak without an approved transcript; he makes republicans look bad on a lot of occasions.

Look... first of all, the liberals of this nation have all had pretty good lives... second they simpathize with the enemy because they hate bush more... They havent had the knife to their throats.
Try rooting for america you scumbag liberals.
If You want your communist humanist UNGODLY society so bad... go to china. Dont change this country. ITS FINE!

Slip-up? Not Mr. Dick "F-word" Cheney! He doesn't slip up! Noooo - he says and does what he means, and he means what he says and does. Like shooting a friend in the face. Or making sure the no-bid contract went to Haliburton and not any kind of minority/women owned companies because we all know how the President wants those tax-cuts to help out small businesses like Haliburton so they can continue to be the backbone of our country!

Twit.

I'm new to this, please help me.

So Cheney doesn't torture he just "dunks"? That's holding someone under water until they're drowning and about 2 seconds from dying isn't it? Then you bring them up, revive them and see if they will tell you where more terrorists are. If they don't say what you want to hear, you repeat the process. Well, I'm sure glad Cheney is so humane with prisoners that haven't even had a trial. For a moment there I was worried.

It's no wonder the world thinks of the U.S. as "The Great Satan" with this gang in charge.

Sorry world, we're not all like Cheney.

Does anybody else here actually know what waterboarding is? It is nowhere close to a 'dunk in the water.' When a person is waterboarded only the upperpart of their body gets wet because water is being poored over their face; not dunked. Knowing this how is it possible to confuse the two actions? When Cheney says that waterboarding is not condoned but that dunking is a no brainer; I see no contridiction at all, they are completely seperate forms of interogation.

Waterboarding is not an american tradition at all; it has been used since the Inquisition. We train our own special forces at SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) to resisit this form of interogation (among others) because it is so easy and successful.

Besides this question is so loaded I am (mildy) surprised that Cheney was foolish enough to respond. No matter how this question is answered it gets him in trouble; an answer of 'No' would have been just as damning as his answer of 'Yes.'

This is huge breaking now
http://www.cq.com/public/20061027-spending.html

Talk about gullibility, where as the German people were criticized for following Adolf Hitler
during the 1930-1945, which led to Germany's destruction, and the killing of many innocent people.
In America can you see the parallel aren't the American people being led to the slaughter by the
so-called born-again christians who advocate war
and destruction in the name of democracy.Is there any difference?

Who,is to be held accountable for the lives of young Americans being sent to war because some imbecile "Bush" and his cohort "Cheney" who had five deferments rather than serve in the armed forces. Yet these two along with their associates continue to exploit the American people.

Wakeup America soon it will be too late,if not already, in the name of so-called democracy. Is this what you want then do nothing.

Americans should think of international affairs,rather than the 4th of July week-end, the World Seris,NBA finals,NFL finals,the futire of the country is in your hands, wake up and be counted

F.J. Biagini

I am unable to see why you lot are now reviling people you overwhelmingly voted into office to run your country and go to war against innocent countries, murdering innocent peoples and destroying civilian infrastructure for the massive gains of a select few?

Why now complain about a little matter of waterboarding, when you have little inconsequential things like Depleted uranium, a few unexploded cluster bombs here and there.....

And of course a vice president who cannot tell the difference between a lawyer and a quail - apart from the fact that both get shot?

Of course little things like international laws just do not apply to Americans - do they?

Geez,John E....Give thanks you're up in Canada,they're kicking you around down here pretty good! It gives me the "shudders"
Paulo

You guys got a problem with swimming pools?

Terrorists .... How long has America been a terrorist state?

Ever since the beginning othe Americal Civil War
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

America: Rogue State
http://www.doublestandards.org/usmurder.html

U.S. Brig. Gen. Jacob H. Smith: "I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the better you will please me. I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States."
Major Littleton W. T. Waller: How young?
Smith: Ten years and up.

--Exchange on October 1901, quote from the testimony at Smith's court martial by the New York Evening Journal (May 5, 1902). General Smith, a veteran of the Wounded Knee massacre, was popularly known as "Hell Roaring Jake" or "Howling Wilderness".

# 1945-1994: Vietnam: "Remember! Only you can prevent forests."

"nobody ever told us they were human"
--Lt. Calley, My Lai hearings. 'Calley Pleads for Understanding', New York Times, March 31, p. 1

Paulobot,

Are you a real person???

Are you Bush's brain???

No wonder he's so stupid,with you pulling all the levers in his head,and here I was blaming it all on Karl Rove.

Paulobot,I'm staying in Canada until you dimwits are voted out of office on Nov.7,2006.

Now go back to serving slurpees with your co workers Frito,and little Johnny/JD,and leave the big people alone.

onward christian soldiers..food,water,No more bombs is the way forward......america should lead by example and first destroy its bombs 1-bush 2-chaney 3-rumsfeld

And if POW's float, they're not witches or warlocks.
Dunking _is_ a "'no brainer'" - and hunting accidents happen all the time.

Dick Cheney lacks credibility. It is a no brainer that habitual lying causes a lack of faith in government.

I think the fact that we have forgotten who we are--nevermind who the enemy IS. America is a nation of the high ground. Morals, ethics, democracy.

The day that we've forgotten that is the day George Bush stole 2 elections and turned this nation's principles up on its ears by openly embracing the tactics our enemies (past, present, and future) have used.

In my eyes, we've become no better than them.

And whatever follows after this administration, I will have no sympathy for, not one single tear.

Because we've reaped what we've sown.

i can't beleive these people if it saves our country the hell with the terrorist

i can't beleive these people if it saves our country the hell with the terrorist

Joseph Stalin once said "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." I would like to think that humanity has learned since he said this infamous phrase, but it seems we haven't. We are debating, no arguing, about the American use of torture against a reletively small number of captured terrorists. Nevermind that the torture used is mostly psychological, leaves no lasting injuries, and is non-lethal. In this war there is no such thing as an American POW becasue they are KILLED without exception. When that isn't enough civilians that are trying to help rebuild the country are publically EXECUTED for as much media exposure as possable. I have yet to see any reports that say that terrorist prisoners were exocuted. And please don't say that Americans brought this upon themselves, the real torture chambers in Sadam's palace prove that they were (and are) doing worse to each other than anything we have been doing to them. If Cheney needs to be dunked, then I would pay money to see Sadam get all of the punishment that he desrves for the torture and attempted genocide of his of people.

PS. We did find WMD's in Iraq, we just didn't find nukes. Chemical weapons like that he used against the Kurds is a WMD. Stashes of these chemical weapons, as well as material to build/deploy biological weapons, have been found all around the country. I'm actually impressed that we found even these, given the amount of time and space Sadam had I would have thought that would have found nothing. These stashes are probably just the tip of the iceberg.

to think he may have been dunked -
http://www.consumptionjunction.com/downloads/cj_34947.wmv

Two appropriate quotes perhaps paraphrased by imperfect memory:

Those who are willing to give up freedom for safety deserve neither. Thomas Jefferson?

People shouldn't be afraid of their government, a government should be afraid of its people. V

As an observer from another country and a friend of America, I find it disturbing that this "war on terror" has caused so much dissent in America, at a time when America should unite to this common threat, You are arguing about the best way to defeat this enemy.

IMO about the only right thing Bush did was to attack Afganistan after 911. And then he promptly left before he finished the job. Afganistan is now headed back to the dumps and a soon to be uber terrorist state.

And then there was Iraq. An unmitigated disaster. He should have listened to the rest of the world. Having said that, I'm afraid that I agree with Bush. Whilst it was wrong to attack Iraq, its also wrong to leave it in the mess that it is. 2 wrongs dont make a right. Bush broke it, so its America's responsibility to fix it, and I'm not talking about the moral issue here.

Should the US leave, Iraq will likely split into 3 regions. The kurds in the North will have a problem with Turkey, a NATO member. The middle will be the Sunnis, poor and powerless, but supported by the rest of the Arab world. The Shia's in the south will be a satelite of Iran. Add to that Iraq's and Iran's oil, mix in nuclear weapons, including Israel's (for real this time) and you have a recipe for major instability in the Middle East.

The solution, darned if I know. I do know that Bush's pay them if you can, kill them if you cant method does not work. The world is now more dangerous than ever. America has more enemies than ever. Your land of justice and freedom is being eroded in your zeal to defend yourselves. You justify compromises to your constitution when this is something unheard of in your history. Your enemies react with joy, but your friends watch with alarm and concern.

Still, America is the great hope. Free people everywhere feel that you will come to your senses in time and do what is right over what is politically expedient. The American people WILL prevail. Your true friends stand by you and will answer your call.

Torture is when fingers and/or heads are cut off while the person is still alive! People perhaps hung from bridges and burned! Rape...things the terrorists do damn near daily and laugh in our faces and tell us were damned! Waterboarding is done to save thousands of lives. Khalid Ishaque Mohammad, one of the the master minds of 9/11 was waterboarded -- and only then were 14 terror plots thwarted. Thousands of lives were saved! Do you understand that! So go ahead and live in your tiny little worlds and think that this current administration is screwed up and lying to us. The problem is we know too much of what the military does. Do yo honestly think this is new just to this administration? Check out your beloved Bill Clinton..Now there's a real treat. What a jackass he turned out to be. And he's the best president the democrats have had since Kennedy! What a joke!

"I'm always amazed about all the hubub about torture and prisoner abuse during wartime," Common Sense said. "The enemy decapitates people."

Yes, and they're terrorists. Amoral, ruthless, willing to commit any evil to achieve their ends. Are we amoral? Ruthless? Willing to commit any evil to get what we want?

This isn't even as good an argument as, "I want to do drugs, because all the cool kids do it." Those aren't the cool kids decapitating people, and they don't look like cool kids.

Common Sense then added, "Any argument about we better treat prisoners well so they'll treat our folks well is just stupid."

That's not my argument. I think we should treat prisoners well because it's the right thing to do. I think we should treat prisoners well because it's the humane thing to do. And I think we should treat prisoners well because it's good press. THEY torture. THEY saw people's heads off. We just lock 'em up and give 'em three meals a day. Who's evil, them or us?

"If the same guys being posed naked with dogs or being dunked in water had been shot in the field for looking cross-eyed at our guys, their death would barely register a blip if at all on the national conscience," Common Sense remarked.

And that's why we're completely blowing off the events of November 19, 2005 in Haditha, right? Nobody cares, nobody's been relieved of duty, not even a hint of charging anybody with anything? Oh, wait, that's what's happening in BizarroWorld.

"How many hundreds of families have been wiped out as collateral damage from our bombs," Common Sense continued, "without it registering any controversy back home at all?"

That's war. It isn't pretty, and civilians die. Even as I watched GWB blunder into Iraq, I knew that was going to happen. But there's a lot of difference between collateral damage and deliberate atrocity.

"War is criminal. War is insanity given free reign upon the world," Common Sense concluded.

You and I agree on one thing, at least. But war is, sadly, necessary at times. The tricky part is figuring out when "necessary" is.

Facts: Water boarding is clearly torture; it is explicitly banned by International Law; and the Democratically elected US government has engaged in it.

3 questions:

1st Question: Why do we believe any thing those captives say after being tortured? Wouldn't you say anything to get your abusers to stop abusing you ? Why would we believe it is truth, and not a captives lies.

This by the way is why US courts traditionally don't allow coerced evidence in courts, which leads to the second question: If you believe in old-fashioned concepts of jurisprudence - why would any coerced evidence be allowed in the prosecution of these alleged "terrorists"?

Some of our captives are bad dudes, but probably most of these people are more likely to be victims of their neighbors who wrongly accused them to the US, to settle an old score over a stolen goat.

Witch hunts don't happen just in 1690 Salem. Especially when the US paid (wasted)big money for names in Afganistan and Iraq.

3d question: We don't have good intelligence in that part of the world. Do you think this improves our prospects ?

Whether you stand with Bush or against him, isn't there a better, more effective and way to treat these people.

I think the real reason for the un-American abusive treatment of the people in Guantonimo, Iraq and Afganistan is vengeance for 911. And it is unfocussed and unjust vengence.

Wrong is wrong and it does not matter who does it nor why.

All the bad and evil in our enemies - does not make us good.

If we want to defeat the threat of terrorism, we must return to the more effective moral high ground.

I am in Massachusetts and I am reading some of these posts and shaking my head... Please note that I am a Democrat, Catholic, and I love my country.

First of all, anyone that is thinking that methods of torture are not used by every nation on the globe should really rethink their position. It happens every day, in every country, so get over it.

Secondly, I want the NSA, CIA, FBI, and all branches of our mighty military using EVERY method and technology available in 2005 to head off any further attacks on my sovereign soil.

Thirdly, these animals behead, shoot, torture, and maim any United States troops that they capture. They're crazy. And I also understand, but do not CARE about their cause.

If we make a mistake or two along the way while "interrogating" one of these clowns, oh well. I am pretty confidant that it does not happen very often. Please go and look up the definition of collateral damage.

Lastly, I am no big fan of Bush or Cheney. BUT, I do support the use of any tactic that needs to be used to gather intelligence in order to protect the United States and all her citizens.

To the liberal folks and ACLU members.... This is a brand new era we live in. There are alot of folks in black hats that want to hurt us and our way of life.

So when you snuggle into bed tonight, or attend your child's holiday events this year, say an extra prayer to whomever it is that you worship and thank them for keeping our folks with the white hats in step with the REALLY bad folks in the black hats.

Kekenidika: The Bush Regime was NOT "overwhelmingly voted into office". The got a slim majority in the 2000 election, and a minority in the 2004 election. Only thru election "abnormalities" and our bizarre "electoral college" did they manage to take & keep control.

To everybody claiming the Liberals hug terrorists: I detest terrorists. That does not mean I want me or my government sinking to their level. We're supposed to be the good guys. That means there are things we simply shouldn't do. Moreover, once habeus corpus is suspended at all, it is suspended completely. Suppose you do or say something the Regime doesn't like. The Pres declares you an "enemy combatant" and ships you to Gitmo. Under the Regimes doctrine, you are, because he said so, and because you are, you don't get to have it heard in court. And they can "aggressively interrogate" you all they want. Think being an American citizen will protect you? Ask the citizens who are there right now. Oh wait, you can't: not even their lawyers get proper access to them.

And to address Cheney's backpedalling: Somebody name some form of "a dunk in the water" that ISN'T torture, but WILL get information!

Also, Casual Observer: "allowed it to turn into a potentially enormous failure"? There is no potential here. At some point, we will be leaving Iraq to it's own devices. The 60% Shia majority insures that the results will not be anything like we would like. Iraq will return to Islamic fundamentalism, governed by a group that, overall, hates us.

In reading through the comments regarding Mr Cheneys latest gaffe, I notice a theme among the cons in the bunch. That theme seems to be that the L, or D side is ignorant to the facts of terror, they would eschew torture as a means of intelligence gathering, opting instead, to just "talk it over" with the prisoners, thereby gathering the necessary information. I have news for the naysayers to this technique. It works. Enough time spent at the table or couch of a shrewd interrogator will yield good results, if good results are indeed within the person being interviewed. Therapists and psychologists do this all the time, as do police officers. Violent forms of torture produce negative results. The most accurate information available does not come from a person fearing for their lives and ready to tell anything for the treatment to stop, much less from a person who wants to die a martyr. Than there is the spinoff of our troops being treated similarly, when captured. Than there is our reputation as a country and society that does not condone this kind of thing.
Where does it stop? The USA is a signer of the Geneva Convention. Does a violent act against our country have to turn us into the same sort of people that perpetuated the act? Seems when we do that, we become them, and in many ways, they, that nasty bunch now ensconced somewhere in a desert cave, have won a large victory? More importantly, we, the citizens, have lost something equally more important, our honor, and another piece of our soul.