Mike Mussina on Carl Pavano, and Tom Glavine on Jose Reyes
On my trip home from Yankee Stadium early Saturday evening, I finished reading "Living on the Black," John Feinstein's latest sports book. Feinstein convinced Mike Mussina and Tom Glavine to open up to him about their 2007 seasons, and the two veteran pitchers provided Feinstein with plenty of material with their performances alone, far from all positive.
I've been a fan of John Feinstein's since "A Season on the Brink" shook up the sports world, and I received "Play Ball," Feinstein's last baseball book, as a college graduation present from my good buddy Ken Sugiura. I've gotten to know John the last six years or so, and it was interesting watching him bounce from Flushing to the Bronx last season, and wondering what kind of book he would produce from two pitchers whose seasons both ended on sour notes.
The resutling product is worthwhile if you like the Mets, the Yankees or just the art of pitching. There are plenty of tidbits that I learned about the two men and their teams of 2007. Here are seven, in honor of this "Seinfeld" episode:
1. You probably won't be shocked to learn of Mussina's contempt for the always-injured Pavano, but you'll laugh nonetheless. When Mussina was negotiating a new contract with the Yankees in October 2006, Brian Cashman offered him a two-year, $18-million package.
"Brian, you're not paying me less than you're paying Carl Pavano," Mussina responded. "Don't insult me." Mussina wound up re-signing for two years and $23 million.
In February 2007, after Mussina publicly crushed Pavano in an attempt to make the dim-witted Pavano understand how little credibility he had in the Yankees' clubhouse, the two pitcher held a meeting in a small room in (then) Legends Field. I remember standing outside that room, in the main area of the clubhouse, wondering what they were saying. Mussina was kind enough to tell Feinstein.
"Were you quoted accurately in the papers today?" Pavano asked Mussina.
"Absolutely," Mussina responded.
That was my biggest LOL moment of the entire, 526-page book.
2. Multiple times, Feinstein writes of Glavine's distaste for Jose Reyes' and Lastings Milledge's celebrations from last year. Particularly, Glavine seems to agree with the notion that Reyes' and Milledge's actions in Game 161 of last year motivated the Marlins for the final game, when they spanked Glavine.
Glavine told Feinstein, later: "The last thing we need to be doing is giving people another reason, especially an emotional reason, to want to beat our butts." Glavine immediately knew he was in trouble when Florida's leadoff batter, Hanley Ramirez, came back from 0-and-2 for a walk. Said Glavine: "That told me that these guys weren't here just to get it over with and go home. They had come to play."
3. There was some long-ago tension between Glavine and Mussina, both Players Association loyalists, when Glavine publicly questioned why Mussina signed an under-market extension in 1997. Mussina, a few months away from free agency, re-upped with the Orioles for three years and nearly $21 million, through 2000.
Glavine told reporters, of Mussina: "If a guy wants to give a team a hometown discount, I can understand that, if he thinks it is the best thing for him. But it doesn't help the rest of the guys for him to sign a contract like that."
Yet Mussina got the last laugh. He became a free agent after 2000 and signed a monster, six-year, $88.5-million contract with the Yankees. While Glavine, who signed a four-year extension with the Braves, didn't explore free agency until 2002, by which time he was slightly past his prime and, even more important, the market wasn't as generous. Glavine signed for just three years and $35 million with the Mets.
4. When the Yankees demoted Mussina from the starting rotation to the bullpen last August, Mussina was livid with pitching coach Ron Guidry, who essentially stopped speaking to Mussina. "I'd go by him in the clubhouse, and he'd look right through me," Mussina said of Guidry. "It was as if I'd become a ghost."
Prior to that, however, Guidry comes off as surprisingly involved in Mussina's work.
5. On the other side of the Triborough Bridge, Guidry's former Yankees co-captain Willie Randolph upset his players when he attempted to downplay the importance of Glavine's 300th career victory. It's interesting to see Randolph's "Been there, done that" attitude coming back to bite him.
When Randolph told the media, "I really don't think any of our guys are talking about it very much," referring to Glavine's impending milestone, Billy Wagner (who else?) told Feinstein, "What is he thinking? Not talking about it? We have been talking about it all year. This is something we all want for Tom, and we all want to feel like we're a part of it when he gets it. How can you say this number isn't a big deal?"
6. This is particularly odd: Mussina felt that Joe Torre was making a mistake by starting Chien-Ming Wang over Mussina in Game 4 of last year's American League Division Series. So during batting practice before Game 3, Mussina approached Wang in the outfield.
"Can you start tomorrow?" Mussina asked Wang.
"No, Mike," Wang responded, pointing at Mussina. "You pitch tomorrow." Wang apparently thought that Mussina was starting Game 4, and Andy Pettitte Game 5. Unfortunately for Yankees fans, it turned out, Wang was mistaken.
7. Both say that 2008 will be their last season. For Glavine, so far, he's not pitching well enough to merit a return invitation to the Braves next year. Look at his strikeouts-to-walks ratio. Yeesh.
Mussina will be the more interesting case. He's pitching far better than anticipated so far, with another fine outing yesterday, and with 259 career victories, what happens if he finishes the year with, let's say, 268? Will he be tempted to stick around and make a run at 300?
Here's what Mussina told Feinstein over the offseason: "In 2006, I pitched about as well as I could have hoped to pitch, and I won fifteen games. If I win fifteen games a year _ stay healthy, pitch well, all of that _ for the next three years, I would still be five wins short of three hundred, and I'd be forty-two years old. What's more, my older son will be a teenager by then, and my younger one is only a few years behind. I don't want to come home just when they're saying, 'See ya, Dad.'"
If Mussina actually maintained his current production through the rest of the season, he could conceivably receive multi-year offers from a team, if not necessarily the Yankees.
Anyhow, thumbs-up to this book. It's worth checking out.
It's interesting how even MLB.com plays up Griffey's nickname, "The Natural." While we should never rule out anyone's usage of illegal performance-enhancing drugs, I think I'd put Griffey, Derek Jeter, Frank Thomas and David Eckstein on my "Least Likely" Mount Rushmore
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Comments (36)
If Milledge or Reyes get to see Glavine's comments, I think that neither one would "get it". Different generation, different mentality
Congrats to Junior! If anyone has baseball in his blood, it's him! Keep it going.
Ken, How will you and your collages judge pitchers in the Steroids era as far as the Hall Of Fame? Pitchers like Clemens who have been know for being juice, compare to Moose who never rumor to being juice. Speaking of Moose, I can see Moose pitch for the Phillies because he from Pennsylvania and wants to be close to home. The Phillies are a contending team who need pitching and are in the NL, which is a easyer league to pitch. The ballpark is a cocering part of the Phillies thought.
Congrats to Ken Griffey Jr. for hitting 600 home runs. Just think what might have been had Griifey had not gotten hurt since he arrive to the Reds. He would have more than 800 home runs.
Dennis, I never speak for my colleagues, only for myself. Personally, I do not intend to vote for any player who has used illegal PEDs. I judge the evidence on a case-by-case basis. I have not voted for McGwire because I think there is sufficient evidence. As of this point, I don't intend to vote for Clemens, or Bonds, or Sheffield.
Mussina-to-Philly could work, although I think the hitter-friendly ballpark would give him serious pause.
Ken - If we do not elect a Bonds, McGwire or Clemens, should baseball reporters use the same logic to keep owners out of the HOF as they effectively averted their eyes to what was happening in front of them 24/7 for 9 months per year?
Yes, I know that the Veteran's Committee elects these executives, but would you be in favor of turning up the heat on these idiots who placed Bowie Kuhn in and barred Marvin Miller?
Why should Selig get in? Reinsdorf? Steinbrenner ( a felon!)?
KDog -
Been underground for the last week, so I missed the live chat. But you were spot on a few days ago about the Henri quote - Sammy did say that America shouldn't have been brought into the digit-obtaining comp. LOL.
Couple of quick comments - I've tried to root for Slippery Slope Willie, but when you report that he erroneously didn't think that his players were talking about Glavine's 300th, it makes me wonder what kind of hold he has on this team. And being swept by the Padres, regardless of the pitcher-friendly park, is ridiculous and embarrassing.
I was at Game 4 of the ALDS last year, and I knew starting Wang, who looked awful in Game 1, was a huge mistake, but nobody was saying boo about Teflon Torre.
Oh, and Glavine is a crybaby.
Da Rock
When it comes to guys like Moose and Glavine who say what they think and don't worry about it, I admire them a lot more than a phony like Curt Schilling who loves the sound of his own voice has absolutely nothing of importance to say, yet says it anyway, thinks he's a "teammate" but really isn't.
Ken, do you see the Mariners and Brewers trading any of their players at the Trading deadline? If the Mets are out of the race by the deadline will they trade players? I doubt the Yankees would trade players because that's not their nature to do that. I would like to see the Trade deadline move from July 31 to somewhere in August. The trade deadline is to close to the All-star break. Teams would have more time to determine if their team can make the playoffs if the deadline was move to a later date in August. I know their has been some talk about that.
Will you cast a HOF vote Moose's way? Also, do you think his personality will help, hurt, or have no effect on his chances? Most writers seem to like him while still acknowledging he's a bit snide and aloof at the same time.
I generally like upfront and honest ballplayers, but Glavine really comes off like a crybaby. He couldn't get hitters out b/c Reyes motivated them? That is the ultimate cop out for an MLB player.
I can understand not liking what he does and saying he should tone it down. But blaming him for his own failures is a disgrace. You really learn a lot about people when times are tough and clearly Glavine doesn't want to be held accountable. He was awful and it's Reyes' fault. Stay classy Tom.
Catching up, before I depart for Shea...
Bob T., you know full well that I feel that no owners (not to mention, no media) from the Steroids Era should be allowed into the Hall of Fame. I will do everything humanly possible _ in other words, write columns and blog about it _ to make this happen.
Dennis, Seattle won't give up for a while yet, not while GM Bill Bavasi is fighting for his job. And even if they do turn into sellers, the Mariners don't have many interesting pieces. If they trade Erik Bedard, that means a concession for next year, and that would be out of character for that franchise. I'm not sure why you mention Milwaukee, since the Brewers are 33-30. As for the Mets, I don't see them falling that far out of it, not with Santana, Pedro and Maine in their rotation.
Dave, too early to call on Mussina's HOF candidacy. I think if anything, his personality will help him. Most media like his honesty.
Bob, I thought I saw once that you were a former player? If so, I'm not sure if you can have the same appreciation of Marvin Miller as I, a fan do.
I think outside of Donald Fehr, Miller is the single biggest reason why I cant afford to go to a game anymore. I cant root for anything but my fantasy baseball team, since every team is a fantasy baseball team now. Those two along with Gene Orza made sure the poor and middle class are priced out of the game. They made sure that no Royal or Pirate will ever be able to play their whole career there (unless they stink).
They have ruined baseball for this one time loyal fan. HOF??? Not on my watch.
Ken, I would like to see the Trade deadline move from July 31 to somewhere in August. The trade deadline is too close to the All-star break. Teams would have more time to determine if their team can make the playoffs if the deadline was move to a later date in August. I know their has been some talk about that.
Richie:
We have a luxury tax which has slowed growth in salaries. It is controlled by MLB. Have the owners lowered ticket prices?
We have a revenue sharing plan which gives nearly $ 30 million to teams like the Rays and Royals to start the season before we get to shared MLB licensing revenue and the teams' own ticket sales, radio and TV fees. This is controlled by MLB. Have these teams spent the money? No, they are hoarding it and putting relatives all over their payroll and boards. Has MLB punished the teams/ No.
The Yanks and Mets (and other clubs) hit you in the pocket for tax relief to build stadia and infrastructure improvements. They cut down on seats to build skyboxes for corporate clients. Why should we build parks for millionaires and billionaires? (And btw, Don Fehr and the MLBPA are against use of public funds for stadium construction). The Red Sox got $ 37 million in 2007 when they designated Fenway a historic site and used the taxpayer money designated for urban renewal to pay ofr players and win the 2007 series.
MLB is generating record revenues. If the Yanks and Mets can draw 4 million with current seat prices, it is the law of supply and demand in action.
As I said to Larry Lucchino ( a former $ 600/hour lawyer) after he told me he wanted salary caps., "Larry, that's a great idea, but let's try it first in areas that people really need a service. I am a Republican, you're on the other side, but I'd rather see caps in health care first. Perhaps it should also apply to lawyer's fees?"
The phone went dead after the scream.
Dennis, that's not a terrible idea about pushing back the tradeline. Some people want it earlier, some want it later, some want the status quo.
Richie, I look forward to your response to Bob's response ;)
Bob is so accurate in his comments and they are so identical to my opinion and supporting information that all I can say is: I agree. In a sport with such huge revenues, I don't begrudge the players one cent. Most careers are relatively short and to get to the major leagues is an awesome achievement that only the elite can do. Far too many owners have used their franchise as a cash cow, an employment agency (heck, even the Mets have done this) and have milked the taxpayers for new stadiums, etc.
I also agree that Marvin Miller, who changed the face of the game and who emancipated players, belongs in the HOF and Bowie Kuhn, who was a terrible commissioner propped up by the O'Malley family definitely does not belong there.
The Mets need to go on a 20-5 run. They won't. Willie's days are numbered.
Bob Tufts for commissioner!
Richie--Marvin Miller wasn't there to help us, the fans, he was hired by the players to even up the odds vs. the owners who obviously were taking advantage of a system in place and anti-trust laws that still keep them from being investigated. They were also probably colluding back then, since they later got caught. Miller not only evened up the odds, he pretty much beat the owner's in everything they tried to do. He changed the game (as did Curt Flood) and as such has to be considered a builder since nothing we see today would be there if it wasn't for him. I don't like him, most fans don't like him. He might get into the HOF because players have most of the say nowadays, and if he does, he deserves to be there.
BTW, if we weren't stupid enough to pay the high prices for tickets, they probably wouldn't be paying these salaries, but long ago baseball figured out there was a market for high ticket prices (ie: corporate owners who could write them off as tax deductions) so the sky is the limit. And the owners don't care about regular guys like you or me. So we subsidize them through cable TV subscriptions and watch the teams that way. Thirty years ago, it wasn't a big deal that teams were in small-markets or big markets (which basically means cities with lots of corporations) today those small market cities can't compete.
The issue on Marvin Miller isn't that he failed to gain enough votes to get inducted, it’s that at 89 years of age he failed to get the support from many of the same players who benefited so handsomely from his brilliance as a labor leader. So much for labor solidarity and loyalty.
Make no mistake: Miller was the genius behind the player’s union and without him, they don’t have the plum contract and same level of salaries that exist today. Miller was a revolutionary in the sport and belongs in the HOF. It is ridiculous that a guy like Bowie Kuhn, who was a laughingstock for so many years, is enshrined and not Miller. That’s really a disgrace. I would vote for Steinbrenner long before Kuhn.
Ken, I understand your sentiments on the suspected PED users and how they should be handled when they come up for possible HOF membership. If a guy admitted use and it can be shown that’s why he had the type of stats that normally merit HOF induction, by all means he should be kept out. If there is slam-dunk evidence that indicates he was a user . . . . But, if all we have are sneaky (but good) suspicions that he used, I feel funny about that. Clemens was a great pitcher for a long time. Did PEDs put him over the top? Is he going to be blackballed based on the current evidence? For some reason I feel much more comfortable keeping McGwire out.
Jim, I understand your concerns on HOF. I think there's pretty strong evidence on Clemens now. I know you don't like McNamee, but Pettitte's and Knoblauch's confirmations make McNamee come off as pretty credible. When you add in Pettitte's testimony, the military doctor's analysis of Clemens' 98 cyst on his rear end, I think there's a good amount of information there.
Ken, of course you are right and all HOF voting is so subjective to begin with, but none of this evidence has been subjected to "cross examination" or otherwise scrutinized. Keeping some of the greatest players of all time out of the HOF is a big deal. Should Pete Rose be in the HOF based on the evidence against him? NO. One of my best friends who was a very big name in the sport for decades personally examined the evidence and saw the documentation. Mitchell's report didn't contain the back-up evidence that evidently existed from Dowd's investigation into Rose. But, it's your vote Ken and I am not saying I necessarily disagree with you, just that I am not totally there yet.
BTW, today's blog was one of your best. You made me want to read the book. I liked the passages you highlighted and the commentary. Very interesting stuff.
Bob, Ken, Sandy, Jim...just because I'm anti-Fehr/Orza/Miller, doesn't mean I'm pro owner!! I have zero sympathy for the owners. They are greedy, dumb, and incompotant!! I will never forgive the players for the 94 and 02' strikes (lets not forget less than a year after 9/11 the players very happily and eagerly wanted to strike) but I will never forgive the owners for not using replacement players in 95! They finally had a chance to control salaries and gain some leverage. And then Reindsdorf signs Albert Belle to a ridiculous contract.
But just because Fehr/Orza/Miller are great at their jobs, doesn't mean their jobs is good for baseball. Those three dont care about baseball, they care about the MLBPA. Didn't Fehr call Tony Gwynn and Pudge and try to talk them out of giving home town discounts? So he tried to rip the greatest Padre ever just so Gwynn could make a few more million as a Yankee?
Again, those three are great at their jobs. Selig is clueless and they've taken advantage of him. And in turn, taken advantage of us. And we as fans are dumber than the owners. It's our fault bc of supply and demand that we let them do this to us. We are just as much a sap as Selig is.
To steal from a commercial, I know baseball is a business, but do the players have to remind me everytime they go out there?
Lastly, when players like Carlos Delgado swings at strike three in the dirt, and doesn't run to first, why should I care if the Mets win when their first baseman obviously doesn't???
Jim, I have to respectfully disagree with you on Pete Rose. The evidence is available on line. It's overwhelming. Rose obviously bet on baseball, and on the Reds.
Richie, didn't you e-mail me about Marvin Miller back in the pre-blog days? If you're against the explosion of salaries, then you're in favor of owners getting more money. It's a zero-sum game. The money has to go somewhere, and it sure as heck ain't going back to the fans.
Ken, read my comments. I agree that Rose should NOT be in the HOF. My point was that my friend saw the FBI fingerprint analysis of the betting slips, etc. Heck, he saw the actual betting slips. In other words, real evidence, not just rumor. I said that while Dowd's report contained hard evidence, the Mitchell report was lacking in many areas with many players. I'm not sure why you thought I was a pro-Rose/HOF guy. No way!
Whoops. My bad, Jim. This is what happens when I try to monitor the blog, watch the Mets game and write a column at the same time. I apologize.
I agree that the Dowd Report is far superior to the Mitchell Report. However, I find McNamee's testimony to be very believable. He basically ruined his life by ratting out Clemens. He had zero incentive to lie about that. And Pettitte's and Knoblauch's confirmations certainly help McNamee.
Ken, stats alone, does Bonds, Clemens and Rose belong in the HOF? All 3 should be in the HOF beacuse of their stats. Which 1 of them will get in first?
Obviously, stats alone, all 3 should be in, Dennis. I don't think any of the 3 will ever make it.
Ken, please consider posting a follow-up entry about this book. I'll have to eventually check it out for myself, but in the meantime, I'd like to hear some more of the interesting anecdotes. Looks like it was a hit with other readers too.
I don't think Rose is ever getting into the HOF, and rightly so. The Black Sox who would have been otherwise deserving, namely Joe Jackson, never got in. We will never know if any of Rose's managerial decisions had been influenced by his gambling on games. Joe Jackson knew about the fix, yet still played well. Yet, he was banned. I can't see how Rose will be allowed in. Bonds and Clemens are tougher calls. If Bonds gets convicted, that goes a long way toward keeping him out. Clemens isn't the exact same situation - yet.
Richie:
What if we took your idea about replacement workers and applied it to professions outside of the entertainment industry - perhaps your profession. How would you feel if someone as brought in and paid 50% less to do your job and fired you?
You cannot do this under American law. And I am glad for it.
Griffey never used roids. jeter has been surrounded by them his whole career. you make the judgment.
john, under what rock have you been living? Every baseball player who's suited up and hit the field since the '80s has been "surrounded" by steroids. The list of users isn't limited to Giambi, Clemens and Bonds. Hundreds, even thousands, of players used. There's not a player in the game who hasn't had a teammate who used. We don't know if Griffey did it cleanly. We don't know that about anyone -- which is why the steroid era is so sad... it casts a cloud over everyone, and allows everyone's accomplishments to be called into question.
Ken, yes I emailed you about this preblog days. And I'd rather the owners have the extra money, because though I doubt the price of tickets would ever go down, perhaps it wouldn't skyrocket so much. And since we're talking in a fantasy land anyways, then my fantasy would be the owners give back to the fans.
Bob, you cannot compare Major League Baseball with my job. At my job, I try. I care. I want to do my best. And I make about $50,000 a year.
Major League Baseball players rarely try. Many could care less if they win or lose (bc if they did they would try). They are making MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS. And a large percentage cheat.
If someone crosses the picket line at my job, they are a scab. They are scum.
If someone crosses a picket line in MLB, everyone but the players would give the guy a standing ovation. Don't believe me? Remember Brett Butler and Mike Busch? Here is a link to an article (I admittedly had forgotten Busch's name) In the article it shows how much the players hated Busch, but the fans loved him. So to compare my job to their job is really not relevant.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_n37_v219/ai_17370305
Glavine is on the DL for the 2nd time this year - is he going to blame that on Millege and Reyes too?
Richie:
If you are a unionized employee covered by NLRB law it is relevant to mention what I wrote. It is called setting legal precedent. Just because it is sports is no excuse to strip players of their bargaining rights under law and create a court case which culd be used to take your job away.
By the way, major league players are the top minute fraction of people who play the game and thusly deserve the high compensation for being the best at what they do. They are highll trained and risk injury and the end of their career eadch and every day - I do not think that happens in your office, nor will you get traded to another city with no way to dissent.
This isn't the 19th Century Richie!
I am not a cop but work for a police department. The people I work for risk a lot more than an ankle sprain Bob.
And I'm not saying players shouldn't be making a lot of money. What I am saying is once you make 25 million a year, you sorta lose the right for me to feel sympathy for you when you strike and say you're not making enough.
The problem with major league baseball players is they have little to no regard for the fans. It is viewed as a business and not a sport.
They also have little to no regard to winning. Players dont care if they win, they just want to get paid.
Watch a college softball game and watch a professional baseball game, then tell me who wants to win more? Who tries harder? Who is playing for the sport? Just look at Tom Glavine at the end of last season. I could care less that he got lit up, that happens...what bothered me was his lack of caring that he got lit up.
It's not the 19th Century...and too bad, because I bet the pros cared whether they won or lost back then.
Good job by Tom Glavine continuing his blame train for life program.
He knew he was in trouble when he had Ramirez 0-2 and could not get him to swing at balls ten inches off the plate...
OOOH those bad wascely wabbits Reyes and Milledge for motivating the Marlins, had they only known Glavine was due to pitch the worst game of his life they might have been less hot doggin it.
Fool, I regret ever giving this guy any defense.
I am sure Braves fans are "devastated" he is on the DL again.