Rieber is going to make fun of me, but I got all worked up yesterday after listening to Benigno and Roberts during a drive.
They were discussing John Maine's outing from Tuesday night's Mets game, and how Willie Randolph lifted Maine after just five innings and 101 pitches. It was the usual "Why are baseball people so married to pitch-count?" stuff we hear all of the time.
I screamed at my radio, "Did they watch the game?!" And then I was amazed again (but didn't scream, because I would've awoken my wife) when the post-game analysts on SNY alluded it to it, after last night's Mets marathon.
Because if you watched Tuesday's game, you saw how Maine was laboring just to get through the five innings necessary to qualify for a victory. How he gave up a two-run homer to Orlando Hudson in the fifth, allowing the Diamondbacks to close within 5-3. How Maine looked absolutely cooked, in the stifling, 90-degree heat.
If anything, I thought Maine deserved to be ripped, for pitching so tentatively after the Mets gave him an early, 5-1 lead.
In the greater picture, I think pitch counts are very important. It's not like some pitching coach woke up one morning and said, "You know what? I think we should start following pitch counts more closely." An abundance of research has been performed on this matter. And if you're more of an "anecdotal evidence" type, just look at how Dusty Baker ran Mark Prior and Kerry Wood into the ground back in 2003, and think about what has happened to these two promising arms since then.
If Grady Little didn't dismiss the importance of pitch counts, then Terry Francona might be leading tours of the Liberty Bell right now, rather than working as one of the game's best managers.
Yes, managers should use some leeway when it comes to lifting a pitcher. But Tuesday night, Maine's pitch count reflected his performance. I'm not quite president of the Willie Randolph Fan Club, but that decision wasn't about blindly adhering to a principle. It was about realizing that Maine had nothing left to give.
A fine idea, Jim, but it ain't happening.
First of all, Valentine is worshipped in Japan, as was exhibited in the documentary, "The Zen of Bobby V." After spending the last five years touting Japanese baseball, he's not going to say, "Yeah, you know what? That was all a bunch of hooey. The Mets are calling. I'm outta here!"
Second of all, if you saw that documentary, you saw the Marines' lone U.S.-born employee Larry Rocca explaining how, a few years ago, Valentine was more intrigued by the opportunity to manage the Devil Rays (as they were called at the time) than the Dodgers. "That's a (bleeping) challenge!" Bobby said about the Rays.
I don't think Bobby would view managing the Mets as a challenge. He's been there, done that. If and when he comes back, my guess is it'd be a team looking for a savior. The Mariners could present the perfect opportunity for Bobby, as my former Newsday teammate Jon Heyman wrote recently.
Kudos to Joe Girardi for finally giving up on Farnsworth, another 2003 Cub, as the primary replacement for Joba Chamberlain. While I generally frown upon the notion that some players "can't handle pressure" and whatnot, Farnsworth and the recently DFAd (by Toronto) Armando Benitez provide the exceptions to the rule.
Comments (31)
Leaving George Steinbrenner out of it, how many teams have ever brought back a moderately successful manager for a second tour? If you are a multiple championship coach like Red Holzman, Phil Jackson or Al Arbour it can happen. Ted Marchibroda with the Colts did with a 20 year break. But most never get a second chance. Dick williams never managed a team on two different occasions. The Red Sox never invited Darrell Johnson or John McNamara back. The Astros never brought back Bill Virdon or Hal Lanier. The Mets never brought back Davey Johnson or Yogi Berra. The Giants never brought back Bill Parcells. The Rangers have not recalled Mike Keenan. Perhaps Bobby V will be the exception.
Ken, teams baby these pitchers to death, especially young pitchers. Pitchers now are more fragile now than when Koufax, Drysdale, Seaver and Gibson pitch. Teams look at the pitch count as a determination to how many innings young pitchers will in a given year like the Yanks have. I glad Farnsworth is not he 8th inning set-up man. The next step in my opinion is cut him and eat his salary. Developing young pitchers with the Yanks is not easy because the Yanks are a team that wants to win every year. And when Hudges and Kennedy get smack around everytime they pitch this year, fans will be yelling and screaming for Cashman's head.
I am of two opinions on pitch counts.
In the minors, a strict pitch count will stop a hurler from learning to work through and out of trouble. Once they reach the majors, they develop a habit of looking over their shoulder for someone to help and are not familiar with limiting damage and a big inning.
However I see the need for a sane pitching coach and manager. My arm blew out from overuse in 1982 (counting Omaha and KC, 72 appearances and 120 innings, havving once gone 5 1/3 in the 1st game of a DH and throwing 2 in the second).
But we first have to reach pitchers in their pre-school days.
Step One: ban breaking pitches from any sub-high school league for health reasons. Learn a change up and two and four seam fastballs. Teach kids to be Greg Maddux at this stage, not Randy Johnson! Once the growth bones are completed, then you can start putting torque on the arm to throw sliders, split fingers et al.
Step Two: bring back an increase in distance running and stretching programs for pitchers and avoid weights other than 3 - 5 pounders that work the small muscles in the shoulder which are vulnerable.
Step Three; Teach kids to try to throw a first pitch strike, then strike to a spot (usually a low strike) with their fastball. Then teach them to throw a changeup for a strike then to a spot. If a kid can change speeds and go inside and outside as a young teen they will be a tremendous pitcher.:
Ken:
I believe this is the first time "Rieber" has ever been the first word in a blog post. thank you for that and for the second reference.
I didn't know I was the leader of the "anti-pitch count" crowd in your mind. I guess it's good to be known for something. I didn't watch the John Maine game, so I can't comment, but even I know 101 pitches thrown in duress over five innings are more taxing than your usual 101 pitches.
If your argument is that there hasn't been an over-reliance on pitch counts in recent years, well, I don't know how you can argue that. And for every Kerry Wood and Mark Prior, I can give you 1,000 pitches who were removed too early because of pitch counts and watched their middle relievers give up wins. How do you know Wood and Prior wouldn't have gotten hurt anyway? Some pitching coaches believe pitchers don't throw enough, but they are all being shouted down. I understand the genie cannot be put back in the bottle, but that doesn't mean this evolution had to happen, or is right.
Didn't make fun of you once.
Oh, and now that I've commented using my own name I'm going to rip you using an alias. And then deny it when I'm caught.
Ken, Farnsworth hasn't been demoted. He's been suffering biceps soreness and hasn't pitched in a while -- he was just getting in work last night.
I also think it's a bit harsh to say Kyle "can't" handle pressure when he was a successful closer for a year in Detroit and Atlanta. Yeah, he bombed in the playoffs, but then again so have many closers -- including Billy Wagner.
And speaking of Billy (or not speaking of him, since he didn't get a mention in your blog today)... boy, this guy's talent just can't keep up with his mouth! What a brutal, brutal, brutal effin' home run last night. I was at the game and people were seriously ready to charge the field and start tearing stuff up. And, man, when he walked off the field it was ugly.
Thank God Beltran, who had two huge hits last night, bailed him out. Yesterday's headline was "worse. loss. ever," but this would have been.
Webb had the one bad inning (which started with a Reyes bunt), but he's an impressive pitched to watch. Pelfry has never looked better -- he was 90-94 with his fastball with great life on it all night, and his slider was sharp. He was cruising through that game, and while you can't argue it was the wrong decision in a 3-0 game to lift him... ehhh, one more batter wouldn't have hurt.
But seriously... that Mark Reynolds home run -- first it was "holy crap, did that just happen?" and then a second later everyone started to lament how horrible the team was and how Willie had to go. From the high of highs to the low of lows.
And on a note no one will care about: Max Scherzer was pretty disappointing. He pitched well enough, but they've been comparing him to Joba, and he has a FUNKY motion (he loses sight of the target before release the ball) and his velocity was 90-92 (they said this guy threw 98).
Hey Ken!!!!
Great post!
I especially love the reference to that old school piece of work, Larry Rocca. PURR-FECT, as G. King would say, scratching his jowls and twisting his neck.
Man, do we miss Rocca in New York or what, if you know what I'm saying and stuff? Not even Dishonest Abe could deny that one.
I couldn't make it through the mets game last night and didn't know the score until this morning, but I fully expected to hear that Willie got fired if they had lost. Cohen was announcing in the bottom of the ninth that the scoreboard was urging the fans to make noise and the crowd didn't respond.
I still think Valentine would consider managing the Mets as a challenge. He's really the only manager to be extremely successful with them since Davey Johnson. This team is a Mess, the fans would look at him as a saviour and he can show the Wilpons what a mistake they made by firing him.
I think Danny Murtaugh managed the Pirates twice in his career. I also think Earl Weaver might have come back, but am not sure without a book in front of me (I'm not Christopher Russo!)
To those addicted to pitch counts, I offer a little food for thought. Perhaps pitch counts should somehow be adjusted for pitch selection (e.g., curves are presumably brutal compared to change-ups) as well as pick-off attempts and throws to a base when the ball is in play. I would think these non-pitches are just as intense as fastballs.
Did anyone catch Howie Rose's radio call of Mark Reynolds Home run? Its almost like Howie was thinking "are you kidding me"? I thought Howie was going to jump out of the booth the way he reacted.
I think there is an overall toughness missing in baseball that you dont see in hockey and football. I'm ok with some pitch counts but hate that most end at 100 pitches. Yesterday was a perfect example. I think it would have helped Pelfrey to get the shutout. Mentally that would have been huge for him. I would have let the tying run come to the plate before pulling him.
As for Wagner, he's struggling, but overall, he's been the least of the Mets problems. Though when the SNY announcer said he's one of the greatest closers ever, that was telling. How bad is the history of closers for him to be one of the best??
Farnsworth is definitely a choker. He might have been good elsewhere, but he's obviously one of those guys that can't make it in NY. If it's true that Girardi has finally pulled the plug on him, hooray for Joe!
Bob, you have many good points when it comes to young pitchers. Great information and advice. I agree on the ban of curveballs for young pitchers and the need for better conditioning, i.e. stretching and running/sprints. Excellent ideas.
Ken, I think the odds of Bobby V. returning to NY are about 1 in 20, if not lower. Seattle seems like a very logical landing spot.
Pitch counts? They are overrated. Yes, in general, managers shouldn't run their staff into the ground and more than one manager has been burned by leaving a guy in that had a tired arm, even if the pitcher didn't realize it.
Remember what Billy Martin did to his starters in Oakland? But, I wouldn't be a slave to the numbers. Isn’t common sense a good guide, too?
Anthony, I think you and I might need to go to couples therapy or something. We are not communicating well. First of all, I meant that you would make fun of me for getting worked up over something on talk radio; I don't consider you the leader of anything, let alone the leader of the anti-pitch count crowd ;) Second of all, my attempted point was that Benigno & Roberts were saying that Maine had "only" 101 pitches, but if you watched the game, he had nothing left in his tank. They were blaming Willie for being overreliant on pitch counts, when Willie was just using common sense.
Now, let me compare the IP address of Rieber to that of "not Rieber..."
Bob T., thanks for the great insight, and baileywalk, thanks for the scouting reports.
Jim Clark, the Angels brought back Gene Mauch in the '80s, and that worked out OK, at least until the bitter end of the '86 ALCS. The Orioles brought back Earl Weaver, and that didn't work. The Braves brought back Bobby Cox, and I don't think they're upset about that one.
but he's obviously one of those guys that can't make it in NY.
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Isn't that really just a big cliche? I've lived in NY my entire life, but I really feel that sometimes people exaggerate how tough it is to play here. Did Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown fail here because they weren't tough enough or because they were old and brittle? Did Javy Vazquez fail because he couldn't handle the pressure or because he had an injured shoulder? Did Jeff Weaver fall apart because of being in New York or because he just sucked? Was it NY that made Jose Contreras stink it up, or was it because he was simply the up-and-down pitcher he's been with the White Sox? Was Pavano too soft, or just a lazy toad with a crappy attitude?
I think it's the latter in all cases and that anyone can play in New York. But it is, without doubt, a great way to excuse away a lousy signing/trade for a GM.
Kenny Rogers failed here because he couldn't handle the pressure. Brown and Johnson couldn't either but they were through anyway. The rest of them just suck.
I have no doubt, and I think most people would agree that some players just can't make it in a city like New York. The fans are very opinionated and don't hesitate to share their views. They boo (and worse) at the drop of a hat and can be downright nasty. The media is much more aggressive and the expectations are always high. There’s been a lot said here about people not playing hard, etc. That is magnified in New York.
The Yankees were warned about Pavano for many of these reasons, but ignored it. Alas, Pavano is one of those guys that isn’t New York material. History is littered with similar players. I have been to stadiums all over the country and the atmosphere in most of them cannot compare to New York. There was a very good story earlier in the season about how the LA fans treat Torre and the Dodgers compared to New York. The differences were mind boggling.
and don't forget Doyle Alexander and Ed Whitson.
Whitson was a basket case who appeared to only throw well around the John Birchers in San Diego. Doyle like Larry Gura could do the job - especially in 1987 with Detroit.
Billy Martin was a good manager, but he drove some people out of town for baseball bigotry (soft throwers like Gura and Alexander) and traditional (Billy Sample, Elliott Maddox).
Funny you brought up Whitson, Bob, because I was thinking of him as I typed. I don't think I will ever forget the Martin-Whitson Baltimore hotel fight. That was surreal. I liked Martin as a manager, but the guy had more demons than there were fans in Yankee Stadium. He could have one of the great managers if only he was able to manage himself. It's hard to believe he would be 80 years old if he had lived.
Can you imagine some of these SOFT players working under Billy Martin?
Soft as Joe Cooper, the marshmallow salesman that Martin beat up in Meiiesota in 1979?
I shared a bourbon or two with Dick Howser and Billy in the Oakland days. I always followed the rumor that after one or two drinks he was a genuis, after three he was a psycho - I paid for the thrid round and would leave the bar.
Again I have to laugh. Brian Cashman is reportedly exasperated with Hank Steinbrenner. What would he have done if he was around when George fired Howser and told everyone he resigned to pursue a fabulous real estate opportunity in Florida? Cashman might be the one who is SOFT. Get tough Brian!
And the Mets blow another late lead - lose in extra innings.
How hard is it to be a Mets fan at this point in time without chemical assistance?
I cannot believe that Willie allowed himself to get burned by Heilman. If there is no alternative, that's Omar's fault. How much longer can the Wilpons allow this to continue? To the All Star break? That might be too generous a stretch. Don't they want to eat the rest of Willie's contract?
Baileywalk I coudln't agree with you more. Not playing in NY is a crutch. I'm sure NY played a factor in why Eddie Whitson sucked, but I'm also sure that NY played no factor in Randy Johnson's failures here.
Ken, when does Fred & Jeff Wilpon decides to shake things up before the Mets season keeps impording. Now? All-star break?
All-Star break, Dennis. This was a very weird series. If Wagner had done his job this past week, the Mets would've won 3 of 4, at least. Hard to really penalize the entire operation over one man's incompetence.
Ken, that is true (Wagner melting down), but people said last week that the Mets lost four games by five runs. That was true, too, but at what point do the Mets start winning and stop making excuses? At some point, something has to change.
Oh, it's a fiasco, Jim, unquestionably. But when you're talking about firing the manager, can you really say, "Willie, we know that you got the ball to Wagner, but that's not good enough"? Once the manager gets the ball to the closer, his job is supposed to be done. The last two games were inspirational, nearly, before Billy Wags entered the game.
As opposed to say, that sweep in Atlanta, when they were just embarrassed...
Ken - can't your insect overlords give you a respite and let you cover their corporate Cubs until the All-Star break?
If not, you'll soon need an amateur psychology degree to talk Met fans off the ledges of NYC if the situation does not improve markedly.
LOL, Bob. I'm not sure whom my insect overlords are, at this point in the transition.
Fair enought, Ken. Let's see how things play out over the next week. The Mets can't be this bad, can they?
Switching gears, I wonder if Congress really wants to catch Selig in a lie? (I believe they would love to catch Fehrs in one.) I would love to see Selig called back and invoke the 5th Amendment. Oh, that would be great!
All those posts and not one comment on that jovial little rascal, Rocca?!