1. The Mets, in wrapping up one of the most eventful weeks in their history, will continue their recent upswing by taking two of three games from the Rockies at Coors Field. In their one loss Sunday, they will tally three runs to Colorado's 11, so that the 3:11 on the scoreboard honors the three men who lost their jobs in the Midnight Massacre.
2. The Yankees, loving their easy interleague schedule, will sweep their three-game series with the Reds at Yankee Stadium. After Mike Mussina gets nicked by a line drive tonight, however, Hank Steinbrenner, continuing his pursuit to keep pitchers out of harm's way, will demand that all hurlers be placed in a protective bubble.
3. Four days later, a confused Carl Pavano will still be wondering, "Why would anyone ever complain about being taken out of a game?"
4. I will appear Sunday night on "Sports Extra" with Duke Castiglione, 10:30 on Channel 5.
5. I ran into a baseball industry contact Wednesday at Angel Stadium, and the contact ridiculed me and my media brethren for overreacting to the Midnight Massacre.
"You're consumed by the 'how,' and ignoring the 'what,'" the person said.
"Well," I countered, "doesn't the 'how' reflect the poor leadership of Omar Minaya and the Wilpons?"
"What's the difference?" the person said. "The manager needed to be fired. They fired the manager. Who cares whether he had to fly back home, or what time happened? Omar exhibited leadership by sticking with Willie and giving him as long a chance as possible to turn it around."
I know some of you (mostly non-regular commenters) expressed such a sentiment on Tuesday, but most were outraged, as was I, by the tactics of the firing. Three days later...I'm not as outraged. But I still think it was the wrong way to go about it. Not historically bad. But bad.
Have any of you changed your thoughts, with some more time to absorb what the Mets did?
Comments (77)
Willie Randolph should have been fired after the 2007 season ended. The historic collapse was reason enough. The poor play stretching back to June of that year should have removed any doubt that Sept. was merely an abberation.
But, the Mets didn't fire Randolph last October earlier this year. So, it was ridiculous they let him fly to CA and fired him at midnight (3 a.m. in NY) after one of the better wins of the year and following a good stretch of games. Minaya made a fool of himself. Jeff Wilpon is already widely regarded as a fool, so it's hard think even less of him. Bernazard became seriously tainted goods.
Should you or I be outraged with how the Midnight Massacre came down? Absolutely. The way the Mets got to removing Randolph shows the franchise is more dysfunctional than many people realize.
I'm not outraged at all. Willie's a good person and genuinely had the Mets best interests at heart. But things weren't working out and he had to go. I don't care that much about the how's and when's. That's between Minaya and Randolph. I'm just glad that it got done.
Why should we cry for a guy who flew a chartered flight to LA, stayed at the Costa Mesa Westin, then came home with $3.4 million in his pocket? Some people have it much worse than that.
Ken, the bottom line is if the Mets wanted to fired Willie they should have fired him after the Arizona series or after the doubleheader against Texas and before they board a plane to Anaheim. Instead they fired Willie after a win, and at around 3 a.m. in the morning. That 's a gutless move on the Mets front. By the way Ken, Omar hired Bernazard. So if I was running the Mets, I would fired Bernazard because of his antics on the job. Omar would show some guts if he fires Bernazard.
Joba looks good yesterday. He 's starting to round into shape in the rotation. My stance has not change as far as Joba is concern. Basically, the Yanks try to strenghten the rotation, while weaken the bullpen. This is totally a Hank move. This idea that this was a organization decision is a bunch of bull. Hank used the media to bitch and moan to get Joba into the rotation. It turns out there was a need to put Joba in the rotation beacuse of the injurys to Wang, Kennedy, and Hudges. But it also weaken the bullpen. where everybody else besides Rivera, stinks.
Hopefully this baseball indistry contact gets canned as soon as possible and exhibits such a calm demeanor.
Every move an organization makes has to also be examined in a PR format, as the Mets supposedly want people to like them and want to come to the park. It also will include presenting an image that free agents entertain the thought of playing in New York.
Every PR, HR and corporate communication person I spoke to about this said that it sends a message of total internal confusion and the method implied some animosity towards Randolph.
Who wants to join a dysfunctional/vindictve organization?
Dennis, you couldn't be more wrong about the Joba decision. This was Cashman's plan going back to last year. Hank had as much to do with it as you and I did.
And Dennis, starting pitching is more important than relief pitching. You don't need good relievers if you don't have good starters.
I find it funny that so many people say "who cares how they fired Willie -- he's a millionaire! -- boo-hoo-hoo for him." So I guess if you get paid a lot of money your employer can treat you like crap. The only way to describe how they fired him is chickensh-t. It was just botched all the way around and while I wouldn't describe myself as "outraged," I thought he deserved better. Plus it made the team look ridiculous. They took a bad situation and made it worse.
Dennis, by the way, why do you always call Hughes "Hudges"? Is it a joke I'm not picking up on?
Hank was upset about having his pitchers hit in interleague, but if he was really smart he would call for interleague to be expanded to half the season -- since the Yankees play the NL like it's an exhibition game against a college team in spring training.
Look you don't have to humiliate someone when you fire them the way the Mets did to Willie just because Jeffy Wilpon (no more respect for him as a man, now he gets referred to as a punk kid), dislikes you. BTW, does anyone know what Willie did to him (besides the "racist" remark) to earn that dislike? Or was it solely Tony Bernazard backstabbing him that did it? Ken? Nobody complained really about the coaches getting canned, and it was really done badly as well, but they weren't left twisting in the wind either. And everyone who hasn't been paying attention: HERE COME THE YANKEES! It's not just the easy inter-league schedule, it's been they have been smoking hot since ARod got healthy.
Jim to answer your question last night about the Rays' moving and when. They have suggested a 35,000 seat open air stadium at the spot where Al Lang Field currently sits. I believe they are planning on putting in 33% of the cost (which I believe is $350 million). The city has approved the deal, which also involves tearing down Tropicana Field and making a development out of it, combo of retail and condos which also pays for part of it. The city and state pays the rest. Gov. Crist who is from that area is in favor of it. This has to go to a vote and if it passes the Rays could be in park by 2011. If it fails, everybody expects that in five years Sternberg will move the team to Las Vegas. He says he wants to stay. A lot of people want them to stay in the Trop and a lot of people want the new stadium, so right now everything is up in the air.
ken,
without a doubt the ny media overreacted to the "Midnight Massacre." But at the end of the day, that's what it's about here: stirring the pot.
when bill madden was tapped as a guest on SNY's ominous "Mets in Transition" coverage, he had trouble providing substance to back up his claims that the willie firing was an act of cowardice. as one commenter surmised in a posting on DAY 1, it certainly isn't the first time somebody got fired at an inconvenient time - try getting canned on a friday without the prime Wilpon severance package.
the man needed to be fired. that's what happens when baseball teams do not perform. and i completely agree with you that manuel is a better choice as manager right now than willie. he's said all the right things so far and appears to be very much in control of the job and this team.
I know Tony Bernazard is a Judas around here... but the "Daily News" is saying he could become the GM if Omar is fired. I'm sure this comments section will burn like the fires of Hell if that happens.
Look, obviously we all would love to have Willie's problems. Getting paid 3.5 million or so to do nothing. But that's not the point here. The point is someone thoughtlessly at best and mean spiritedly at worst leaked the story on Friday. He should have been fired then when it was leaked. Then, allegedly Willie said dont let me get on this plane if you're going to fire me, and he let him get on the plane and fired him anyways.
Ken, time heals many wounds, but it wont heal this one for Willie. He got treated like garbage on the way out.
As for historic firings...this tops Yogi's in many ways. It is a historic firing.
Yes, Randolph deserved better...it's too bad you cant cant fire the players...two observations...did Randolph stop hitting when the Mest lost three 2-1 games to the pathetic Padres...and was it Willie's fault when Wagner gave his best impression of Armando Benetiz in three blown saves...reverse those 6 games and Williw would still be the manager !
Ken, I found another team that is as SOFT as the Mets, The Toronto Blue Jays. The Jays has lost 13 of their last 17 games. B.J. Ryan is blowing leads left and right, and is not the same pitcher after Tommy John surgery. Their offense stinks. Their pitchers are going to get frustrated with the lack of runs support. Like I said before, the Jays seem to faded from June on. By the way what was J.P. Ricciardi thinking by going on the radio ripping Adam Dunn? While he's right about Dunn when it comes to Dunn the player, he doesn't know Dunn the person at all. The fact he talk about Dunn is consider tamping right? Also I heard Chris "Mad Dog" Russo said that John Gibbons was out as the manager and Cito Gaston is in. Any truth to that rumor?
It's not a rumor, Dennis, it's a fact. Gibbons is gone.
And I can't believe J.P., a former Beane boy, would dis Dunn because of his low BA. He's an OBP guy with huge power numbers. He would be lucky to have him on his team -- and right now he would be by far their best hitter. J.P. is a disaster. How does he keep his job?
Well now its official, Gaston in and Gibbons is out. Ricciradi will be out next. He wouldn't know Adam Dunn if his life depended on it. How does Ricciradi know who Dunn is?
Ah the Mets. Management leaks private and blunt player assessments to the players, they let him twist in the wind, lie about his job status - and they make Randolph sign a non-disparagement agreement upon his firing.
Let me say this onbehalf of Willie. Your players are gutless and go over your head to bitch to your bosses, your clubhouse is fractured into ethnic groups, your GM and assistant GM are vindictive liars, your owner and the member of the lucky sperm club that has gained oversight of the franchise are ignorant of basic PR and HR skills (at least regarding the baseball business).
I am sure Willie is conforted that Cito Gaston got a job as manager - only 11 years after being fired (thanks to the Jays management dismantling their consecutive world series teams).
Bob, people have complained about the Steinbrenner kids and lumped them in with Jeff Wilpon but I think that is a mistake. Jeff was put in his position without having a business background sufficient to justify it in any way, even via the tradional nepotism route. The Steinbrenners have been involved in other family ventures and held real responsibility. They also seem to have enough intelligence to know their own limitations and to let pros run the franchise on a day-to-day basis.
Jeff Wilpon is a joke. Of course Omar lied and is still lying and Bernazard is someone that is also lying and should never be trusted by anyone, including players that trust him now. The Mets are a franchise that is well on its way to being run into the ground. Just wait. The team is the oldest in MLB. The farm system is poor. They will need to go the free agent route, but doing so will cost more draft pick and perpetuate the poor farm system.
Richie G. - I don't think Willie's firing tops Yogi's firing just 16 games into the season by George.
Sandy - I am familar with the plan for the Rays new stadium but still wonder if it will be built. It will seat just 34,000, which is pretty small. Then again, no one goes to the team's games so it might not be a big deal. I know the stadium plan still has to get approved by a couple of legislative bodies and in a public vote by St. Petersburg residents. I'm not convinced that people who don't go the games now will vote a tax increase upon themselves to pay for the new park. We shall see. I know the best case scenario is for the park to open in 2012. I think it is 50-50 the team moves because I think those are the odds the new park is ever built.
Jim - Think about what you said regarding the upcoming rosters. The Mets farm system is currently tapped out and they will have to go the free agent route.
What free agent will come to the Mets and deal with this management group? The player's agents will use the Mets to post a high bid for a quality player (Teixiera, for example) and the agent will shop it elsewhere.
As for the Rays... they are winning and entertaining, but they cannot compete with Matlock re-runs. Stop the welfare and shut the franchise down. I can't stand the whining and begging for taxpayer money.
Bob, I believe as a general rule players go wherever they can get the most money. But, the best players are making so much money that "quality of life" comes into play and they are willing to make a tad less where there is a less chance for misery. So, I agree with you completely, especially when it comes to the big names, i.e. Teixiera.
I remember hearing a couple of years ago that agents and the players themselves thought Jeff Wilpon was a moron when he entertained free agents. Baseball people know that he doesn't know the game, but he continues to make a fool out of himself ala James Dolan with the Rangers and Knicks. (This is why I think Cashman will be coming back as GM. The Steinbrenner family knows it needs his expertise and values his loyalty.)
I was all for contraction a few years ago. Cities that cannot support a franchise shouldn't have one. The Twins have a billionaire owner and he still had his hand out for public money to build his new park. I'm sick of the whining by small market franchise's that say they can't compete. Do they have a God-given right to have an MLB team there? Some of these locations where minor league towns for a reason.
Jim you're right that it doesn't top the Yogi firing based on was Willie given a chance. But the way Yogi was informed, never seemed to be an issue (though I have no idea I just never heard anything bad about it).
The way Willie was fired, was sorta like the way Leetch found out he was traded. Sather called him on Leetch's cell phone on his birthday. I will never root for the Rangers to win a Cup until that &#)%#) leaves.
Bob...you are dead on about everything you said. Maybe you're turning me...or I'm turning you!! The only thing I dont agree on is I dont think Omar is vindictave. I just think it turned out bad.
Richie G. - Don't you remember that Yogi's firing created an uproar? Steinbrenner assured Berra he wouldn't be fired and would be given time to bring the team around. Then 16 games into the season, George sent Clyde King to do the dirry work and tell Yogi he was toast. Yogi flipped and wouldn't talk to Steinbrenner or go to Yankee Stadium for 15 years until George finally called him up and apologized.
Jim, I do remember the team destroyed the locker room or something. But I thought it was because he was fired, not how he was fired.
In Willie's case, not many are arguing that he shouldn't have been fired, but the way he was. That's why I think Willie's is in a way worse than Yogi's. Yogi's was worse in that he wasn't given a chance.
Yeh, the Mets really did blow it. Some people don't care how it came down, they just wanted Willie gone, but there is a professional way of doing things and this wasn't it. Willie has never disgraced his uniform or the game. He wasn't the greatest manager, but he should have been treated a little bit better. This whole thing reeks and certain players, Jeff Wilpon, Omar and Bernazard can lie all they want, but definitely took it on the chin over this one, and rightly so.
RG - the bizarre lunar phase will end soon, I promise you!
What about Curt Schilling? Will he make the Hall of Fame - under the writer's category?
Bob...lets hope so!
As for Schilling, not if Ken has anything to say about it!!
Schilling will be a tough call for the HOF. His numbers compare to other pitchers is good but not great. But his performance in the postseason with the Phillies, D-backs and Red Sox might get him in.
Jim, team like the A's and Twins bitch and moan about the Yanks payroll, but when the Yanks come play in their building, they take the money and say nothing.
It's not a tough call - he joins Mike Mussina in the Hall of the Very Good..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_leaders_in_career_wins
What about Blyleven, John, Kaat, Dennis Martinez, Morris, Tanana, Wells, Moyer, Tiant, Koosman, Lolich, Joe Niekro, Reuss, Kenny Rogers? And some if these guys had fantatci post-season moments and records.
Hey, everyone, looks like another raucous day. Thanks for all of the action.
Richie, why would I be opposed to putting Schilling in the Hall of Fame? I think he has a very strong case. Of the guys that Bob listed, I think only Blyleven and Mussina are better.
How about the two teams that I predicted to make the World Series (Mets and Toronto), as well as another team I predicted to win its division (Seattle), firing their managers within a week of each other? Ay yi yi. I still think the Mets and Toronto will do it, though.
Ken, I knew I wasn't specific enough when I pressed sent. This one's on me. Bob said Shilling will get in as a writer...and I know you dont think writers should get in.
And I know you said you wouldn't go in if you ever were inducted...keep up with these awesome predictions and you need not worry!! (I told you so with Toronto, but I had the Mets winning it all and Seattle making it to the playoffs to so I'm going to shut up now)
Bob...I have to look at Schillings #'s more closely, but I always viewed him as the best pitcher of my generation who is not Hall worthy. And as clutch as he is, lets remember he left Game 7 in 2001 down 2-1. A good game, but Clemens outdueled him.
Oh. LOL. I totally missed Bob's joke - and you're right, Richie, I am against writers getting in.
Remember: With preseason predictions, we don't predict the journey, just the destination. Last year at this time, the Yankees, Cubs, Phillies and Rockies all had losing records. Keep the faith!
Schilling was a .500 pitcher until 1997, the height of the steroids era. Then his career improved markedly after that. Hmmm...
Sorry, just had to add that, especially since Curt went Frankie Five Angels at the 2005 Congressional steroid hearing.
Hey all - What about the investigation into the firm that is inspecting and testing the concrete at the new Yankee Stadium for not performing tests and falsifying results? Could this set the project back if work has to be "retested" or even redone?
Ken, I don't want to get into the whole HOF debate again, but IMHO you are too liberal in your voting. The HOF should be for the elite, not the very good. Take Blyleven. I know we have disagreed about this in the past, but the guy lost 250 games, gave up 50 HRs one season and 96 HRs over a two-year period. Yes, he played on some poor teams and yes he had 50 shutouts and a WHIP of 1.198, which is better than some guys in the HOF, but I would still vote NO. Schilling? NO! He has 216 wins in 20 years. He has many years with less than 10 wins due to injuries, etc. Again, he has a good WHIP of 1.137 and record of 216-146 makes for a nice winning percentage, but he comes up short in my book. Not enough dominating years.
Ken, explain how the Blue Jays offense stinks because that's what holding them back. While the pitching has done very well, the offense has stink up the joint. Sooner or later the pitchers will get frustrated. Ther offense is too righthanded. Also B.J. Ryan is blowing games left and right and doesn't look like the same pitcher since the Tommy John Surgery. And what's your take on Ricciardi ripping Adam Dunn on the radio. Isn't that tampering on his part?
Ken, are you in CO?
I'm back home, Jim. Good question about the Stadium issues - too early to know the answers for certain, but I'd be surprised if it proved a serious delay.
Jim, as for the HOF, as you know, I don't take won-loss record that seriously. If Blyleven had gotten to play for the exact same teams in the exact same years as Jack Morris, then he would've finished with well over 300 wins and been inducted years ago. As for HR allowed, the all-time leader in that category, Robin Roberts, is in the Hall. Blyleven is fifth all-time in strikeouts. That says enough for me right there.
Schilling has a 127 ERA+ (the same as Smoltz, and quite better than Glavine's 188), he is 14th all-time in strikeouts and he has a brilliant postseason history. While I'm glad I have five years (especially to see if anything surfaces re: Bob's implications), I think Schilling has a very strong case.
Dennis, B.J. Ryan isn't "blowing games left and right." He had one awful week, just like Wagner. Ricciardi didn't tamper with Dunn. Tampering is when you say you want a player. Ricciardi said he didn't want Dunn.
Now I figured out what bothers me with your strikeout argument. I totally understand if I'm building a team, I want a guy that K's a lot.
But much like preseason predictions, in the end its about the destination. And though someone may have a ton of strikeouts, he may have a high ERA and not a lot of Wins. Ching Ming Wang is a perfect example. He strikes out nobody. I may not want him to be my ace at the beginning of the year because he's so hittable, but at the end, he has a low ERA and plenty of wins.
So at the end of Blyleven's and Shilling's careers, I have to say that though they struck out a lot of guys, they just didn't DOMINATE over a long enough period of time. I agree with Jim, the HOF should stand for the Hall of Fame, not Hall of Pretty Darn Good.
Wow...first me and Bob start agreeing, and now I'm pretending to be annonomymous like him! That last post was by me.
Ken, I have found arguing/debating about who should or shouldn't go into the HOF is sort of like debating religion or politics. In other words, it's a losing proposition from the get go. We all define greatness differently. I understand your point about the W-L record. To me, W-L record carries more weight when it comes to the HOF. It is a key measurement in a pitcher's worth. Not the only one, but important.
All of us are measured in some way. Take a teacher. What if s/he had the same percentage of students passing a state exam as Bert B's winning percentage? They would be finished if they didn't have tenure. Now, there could be all sorts of reasons why this was the case (low passing rate), i.e. kids with a history of low grades, learning disabilities, lack of tutors due to economic factors, etc., but still the teacher wouldn't be looking that good.
BTW, Bert had 60 shutouts, not the 50 I listed earlier.
Thought this was interesting, what with the discussion we're having about wins, losses and run support. This is from STATS Inc.'s monthly notes package:
Seattle phenom Felix Hernandez posted a 3.92 ERA en route to a 14-7 record a year ago. This spring he is just 6-5 despite improving his ERA by more than one run. The difference is the run support he’s received. His teammates provided him 6.29 runs per nine innings in 2007. That’s nearly three runs more per nine than he’s benefited from this spring (3.48). Only 10 major league starters who have worked at least one inning per team games have received less run support in 2008. A year ago, Hernandez ranked sixth for most run support in the majors. . . Detroit’s Justin Verlander has suffered a similar fate. No starter who qualified for the ERA crown enjoyed more run support in 2007, when the Tigers gave him 7.32 runs per nine innings. This year, the offensive production has dried up. With his teammates providing just 3.43 runs per nine, Verlander ranks ninth in the lowest run support average.
Jim, I understand what you're saying about needing some measure. But if enough good teachers were whacked due to what was regarded as an unfair measure, wouldn't there be a movement to change the measure? That's what has happened with won-loss record the last five years or so - regarding both Hall of Fame candidates and Cy Young Award voting.
Richie, the bottom line is that the more strikeouts a pitcher records, the more likely he is to pick up a victory - because he's leaving the game less to "the elements" of defense and luck.
Ken, since 300 wins will be next to impossible for any pitcher now, do you see writers like you look at making a different win total for pitchers to help determine if they can make it to the HOF. Like for a example we make it 250 wins as the number to be consider for the HOF.
No, Dennis. As I wrote above, I think there is a movement to de-emphasize wins altogether. Not that they should be ignored, but there are clearly better measures to utilize.
Ken, I know you are not a fan of wins, but you still obviously know what it takes to get them. So I dont understand why there is a growing belief that pitchers wont record 300 wins anymore!! Glavine/Clemens/Maddux all grew up with pitch counts, 5 man rotations etc. There will be superstar pitchers in the game that will get there.
What do you think Ken?
I first heard the "300 wins will be next to impossible" argument back in 1963 when Early Wynn won his 300th game. In the last 25 years eight pitchers have won 300 games with Randy Johnson threatening to become the ninth.
Ford Frick predicted in 1970 that no one would ever break Walter Johnson's career strikeout record. Mike Schmidt predicted no one else would hit 500 home runs after he retired. The future sometimes is not what you think it will be.
Richie, it's a great question you ask, and I have to say, after Johnson (who is limping toward the finish line) and maybe, but probably not, Mussina, I'm not sure who else is going to get to 300. When Clemens/Glavine/Maddux began their careers in the mid-80s, pitch counts really weren't a factor. They still pitched a lot of complete games and tallied a lot of decisions. Nowadays, relievers get so many decisions because of the pitch counts.
If you look at the top 20 active leaders in wins, after Johnson and Mussina, you might have to say that Pettitte has the best chance to reach 300:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/W_active.shtml
Ken,all things considered: new stadiums, revenue streams from those stadiums and cable networks, farm systems, 40 man rosters, current contracts, coaching and front office staffs, ownership, etc - are the Yankees better positioned/in better shape moving forward? Is this a rhetorical question?
I think they're in pretty good shape, Jim. They're going to be printing money at the new ballpark, and yet Cashman is trying to set them up _ obviously, they're not there yet _ so that there's no need to go after the Sabathias and Teixeiras of the world. Cashman's future is a significant issue. I think he'll be back - and I think that's a good thing - but there's still time for Hank to drive Cashman somewhere else.
Hal, Jennifer - and George - won't allow Hank to do that. I think Hal values Cashman's professionalism and how he has learned from some free agent signing mistakes. I'm not entirely sure the Yankees won't be making a play for Teixeira, but I think it will essentially follow the route you described a few weeks ago: Here's what we are prepared to sign you for. Yes or no. No bidding against others or against themself.
Oh, Ken: My above question was poorly spelled out. I meant to ask are the Yankees or the Mets in a better position moving forward - in your humble opinion.
As for the wins argument, I viewed pitching as a purely defensive position. Your job was to do a few things:
1) throw a first pitch strike
2) throw to a specific spot with a specific pitch (expand the zone)
3) get out of a jam without looking over their shoulder for help
4) Make sure your team scored first, and if your team scored, put a zero on the board in the next inning - it is a huge momentum item.
If a pitcher does these things, they will stay in the game longer (unless you are a high pitch count strikeout guy) and have more wins and more decisions (sometimes you will have a bad inning in the 7th to 9th, but so do most bullpens.
I did not want to trust the game to anyone else - not the bullpen, not even the manager. I did not want to insult, but if he ever came to the mound I would ask "who do you have in the bullpen that is better than me in this situation?". If a strikeout was primary, I wouldn't complain as much.
By doing this as a starter I completed 16 of 27 starts in 1978 and 12 of 26 starts in 1979 wiht 100 or so pitch counts. The ball isn't heavy - I wanted it in inning 1 through 9 - and I still think today's pitchers are afraid to do so.
I'm glad someone else besides me thinks that Curt Schilling may have used steroids to help resurrect his career. If you look at his records and Clemens they are remarkably similar for that period in the mid-90s and they both resurrected after a trade. While Roger has always been accused of taking them, Schilling never was. If you look at them physically, they are the same.
As for Schilling's upcoming surgery--good riddance to him! Unfortunately while we are losing him probably as a player, this blowhard will more than likely stick around, possibly as a replacement for either Tim McCarver in the Fox booth or Joe Morgan in the ESPN booth. And likely a few months after he starts, we will be wishing the guy he replaces had never left.
HOF? Probably not. But in 20 years when he is on the ballot for the last time writers may decide based on what has transpired within that time that his credentials are better than what is around then and let him in.
Sandy - I do not think that Clemens used steroids, but since he was throwing around percentages pf players that used - but changed his tune in front of Congress - I want to hold him to the same unreasonable "prove your innocence" standard. (He claims his career was jump-started by Clemens' advice on workouts and dedication)
And what did the Red Sox give him to kili the pain after the miracle bloody sock episode - he looked a little goofy in the dugout that day. Was hje marcaine mixed with something? And why did the Red Sox soon fire the doctor who perfomred the surgery that helped them win the 2004 World Series?
Ken, thats a great list. Pettite has no shot since he's been talkinga bout retirement for years. He'll never last. I'd say Johan and Peavey have the best chance. But even if no one does it for awhile, eventually like all milestones/records, they are reached. The only unbreakable modern day record for me is Johnny Vandermeer's two consecutive no-hitters. (Though Nolan Ryan's no-hitters and Cal's streak will be also nearly impossible)
Ken, Schilling has lost all creditable in my opinion a long time ago. He back tracked what he said in SI in 2001 in front of Congress in 2005.
Bob, Hitters are a lot more patient at the plate now then in the past. Teams like the Yanks and Red Sox take pitches resulting in longer games. Teams are also obsess with the pitch count. They baby these starting pitchers to the point that they don't last long in the game and as a result complete games don't happen that often
Bob, I think you meant to say that you don't think Schilling used steroids, not Clemens. I have to repeat that while Schilling has often been a very good pitcher (with lots of time off for injuries) and has plenty of strikeouts, he isn't one of the greatest and thus doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Can you imagine having to listen to his induction speech?
Richie, I think every record can be broken except for Cy Young's career wins. Vandermeer's two straight no-hitters can be broken because they involve an element of luck. He had a career record of 119-121, thus it wasn't pure skill. In this age of somewhat watered down talent (due to expansion), a pitcher might very well repeat the feat.
I don't think Ryan's strikeout record will be broken either considering it would take at least 20 years for a pitcher to do it and since most don't pitch more than 6 or 7 innings the feat would seem impossible to me. Whatever the record is for season-highest batting average ever probably won't be either, it must be somewhere between .410 and .420. Conditions of the way the game is played and rules changed.
Bob, my mistake, but I still have just a hunch that that workout regime might have included some supplements that Clemens might have used, of course it's debatable who is more credible in the "not me" world, Schilling or Roger.
I should clarify my comments on the Vandermeer feat: No one will ever break it because that would involve throwing three consecutive no-hitters. I meant someone could match it.
I do think the shutout records are unreachable at this point because few pitchers complete games.
Cy Young's 511 wins, 749 complete games and 7354 2/3 innings pitch will absoutely be never be broken ever. Those numbers that I just metion are unreachable. No one will come close, guranteed!!!
Jim, I meant break not tie when I said what I said. But I strongly dont feel it will ever be tied either...and for the exact reasons you gave!
Because it would take soooooooooooooooo much luck and skill to have back to back games like that. No one has probably ever come close to repeating what he did.
Ryans strikeout record is probably more reachable since luck isn't a factor. All it takes is an uber phenomanal pitcher who k's a ton and wants to pitch forever and has a manager that lets him go 8 or 9. And as we all know that happens all the time. (But seriously, that is much more doable than Vandermeers.)
The Yankees have crashed back to Earth, losing two straight to the lowly Reds. Where is the New York offense? I liked how Giese threw today. What wasn't there to like about it?
Jim, the Yanks have been awful in the clutch with RISP for years now. They had bases loaded nobody out in the 2nd and 2 on no one out in the 3rd and didn't score in today's game. They should crush Thompson, instead they let him off the hook. Shame on the Yanks for not taken advantage.
Also Cy Young's records will never EVER be broken, because of the way game is today. You tell me who's going to win 511 games, pitch 749 complete games and pitch 7354 2/3 innings. Nobody will ever come close.
Jim, without question, the Yankees are in better position than the Mets, looking ahead. Not even close.
Ken, I wonder what the Padres are thinking when they see Jim Edmonds hit home runs left and right for the Cubs. The Padres are probably thinking " Where was this when he was with us"? Considering they have struggle for runs, the Padres gave up on Edmonds because he was struggling. Yet, all of a sudden he goes to the Cubs and he's hitting like he was with the Cardinals.
Edmonds had 90 ABs with the Padres and went .178/.265/.233.
He's had 74 ABs with the Cubs and gone .311/.358/.581.
That's quite a swing. Maybe park factor has something to do with it -- since it's a lot easier to hit in Wrigley than PETCO.
But the Padres had every right to give up on him. He was slugging .233, which is hard to believe. I'm not even sure why they signed him in the first place -- he OPS'd a dreadful .728 in his final (typically hurt) year in St. Louis.
Maybe it's that brief burst of adrenaline that comes with being with a new (winning) team, but I can't imagine he'll keep it up. He's been cooked for years.
I see the Mets hired their next GM yesterday--Wayne Krivsky. I wonder how much time Omar has left.
Hmm, I don't know about that, Sandy. As long as Omar continues to play nice with the Wilpons, he's pretty secure.
I agree that Omar appears secure - for now. However, if the Mets take a real turn south, which is entirely possible, and the focus moves to just what Omar has presided over the past few years, he could be in real trouble. What do I mean? The roster is the oldest in MLB. The farm system is rather weak. The will obviously need to go the free agent route in the off-season, which will lead to the loss of draft picks. That will perpetuate the farm system's weakness. If they continue their practice of being Selig's buddies and not paying over slot, they will further dig a hole. I really believe the Mets could be a team headed toward a long draught. They need to get their act together and win NOW. I would be depressed about their long term prospects if I was a Mets fan.