Clearly, the Red Sox were absolutely determined to rid themselves of Manny. Impressive that they pulled this off.
They fared pretty well without David Otiz for an extended period this year, so you'd figure they'd be OK with Jason Bay replacing Manny in the lineup.
They gave up a lot, but man, this conflict grew ugly quickly.
Meanwhile, huge trade for the Dodgers, who desperately needed a bat. Jim, you get your wish: Joe Torre will get to manage Manny. I envision it going quite well, with a motivated Manny enjoying the more relaxed pace of the West Coast.
And the Pirates stock their cabinet with the four players. Pittsburgh GM Neal Huntington wound up lowering his price considerably on all three of his big chips _ Bay, Damaso Marte and Xavier Nady. But better to do that than hold onto them too long.
So really, very good trade for all three clubs.
Meanwhile, the Yankees made a small deal, giving up Alberto Gonzalez to Washington for Jhonny Nunez.
As for my previous blog post...oy vey. Why did I even bother? Busey, the first commenter, is right. I suck.
(But I'm gonna be right on Farnsworth-for-Pudge).
Comments (36)
Agreed regarding Pittsburgh, Ken. Maybe Freddie Sanchez should have been flipped during the offseason, but otherwise Huntington is doing just fine in his new environs.
So the Mets did ... absolutely nothing? :-(
So how do Manny and Nomar get along, anyway?
Ken I couldn't disagree with you more on this one. This is an AWFUL trade for the Sox. Part of what makes Big Pappi so great and clutch is he has to be pitched to. Jason Bay at his best isn't nearly as good as Manny. And Bay hasn't been at his best in awhile.
I hate the way Manny plays, you know that. But in my opinion the Angels just won the World Series today.
BTW, I would have bet all the money I have that they wouldn't have traded him.
And dont feed the guy who said you suck. He sucks for trying to turn this board into a normal message board. I love that we got inside information to a trade that didn't happen.
Im sure Andre Ethier and Matt Kemp and Juan Pierre are overjoyed to have this tremendous new teammate. I would actually sit Andruw Jones forever now. At least until he loses 50 lbs. Now, at least Manny has to play out the rest of the year instead of quitting on Boston if he hadn't been traded, and I guess his future is secure. I don't know about what Pirates got in return, I havent been impressed with Hansen on Boston, LaRoche couldn't stick with the Dodgers despite the fact they had no 3rd baseman and the other two I don't know anything about.
So 2 HOF'ers got traded today. And one yesterday. Big coupla days.
Hey Busey, how's Guiseppe Franco doing?
The Red Sox did the Yanks a HUGE FAVOR by trading Manny Ramirez. Clearly the Red Sox had enough of Manny's antics to trade him now. Very interesting to see how Torre handle Manny and his antics. I don't want to knock Jason Bay, but he is nowhere near the hitter that Manny is. He will help the Red Sos no question. But let's remember that Bay is hitting . 190 against lefty's and .207 against rigthy's. And he's batting .216 with RISP. He's replacing Manny and he 's never been in a pennant race before in his life. The Pirates got what they can for Nady, Bay and Marte.
Ken, what's the situation with the 2 option years on Manny's contract. Will the Dodgers pick then up or decline them both?
Joe Sheehan from BP had this to say:
"Manny Ramirez is getting slammed for making $20 million and not wanting to play, and the words "integrity of the game" are being invoked.
"Full stop.
"What is more damaging to the integrity of the game? One player dogging it for $20 million, or 30 teams not signing a great hitter for $200,000, while nominally trying to win?
"Maybe the answer isn't clear, but it's damn sure a good question."
Sany, LaRoche couldn't cut it because Ned Coletti and Joe Torre have little use for young players.
Dennis, Manny will become a free agent this fall.
JE, LOL on Sheehan. But I will say, and I feel ever-so-confident saying this: There is just no chance that Bonds would play for minimum wage. None. I know that doesn't take away from the greater point. But I'm just sayin...
Ken, Busey is wrong and so are you. You don’t suck. You are very good at what you do. We all appreciate you going out on a limb. If you didn’t, few of us would be hanging around the site all day because it would be BORING. Your analysis, “predictions” and commentary are priceless. You’d never be wrong if you never wrote a word. You make the blog exciting.
The Red Sox had to unload Ramirez because of the turmoil he was causing. By getting Bay, they saved about $4.5 million in 2009 after factoring in the $1 million relocation bonus Ramirez is getting and the fact the Red Sox are paying $7 million of his salary remaining in 2008. Boston does get to put a good player in their outfield in Bay. But, make no mistake about it; Bay isn’t Manny, even in his declining years. This definitely hurts the Boston offense. I’m glad Manny is out of the AL East. I don’t fear Bay like I did Manny.
The Red Sox also gave up Craig Hansen, who we all just saw against the Yankees. Hansen hasn’t pitched well at the MLB level, but he is still young, throws very hard and has lots of talent. I think he can still be an effective big league pitcher.
I’m not happy about losing Alberto Gonzalez. I think he showed he can play shortstop/infield at the MLB level (he had more ranged than Jeter when he filled in) and I thought he could have made the 25 man roster next year. I know he is only batting .250 and last night was the DH for SWB, but Cory Ransom who played SS in his place is already 32+ years old. What are the Yankees up to getting rid of him? Shed some light on this Ken.
BTW, Mark Melancon was lights out again last night, throwing 2 perfect innings, 20 pitches, 15 for strikes. 3 groundouts, 3 flyouts.
Thanks for the moral support, Jim. I agree that Bay is no Manny, but Bay at least will be motivated to play well. Manny imploded like few players ever have.
As for Gonzalez, Cashman said that they liked this pitcher Nunez, and that they feel this will clear room for IF Ramiro Pena, who was at Trenton and could get a call-up shortly to S/W-B.
Ken Manny is nuts. There is no way he will average 20 million a year from a new team. His stats just dont come close to warrenting it anymore.
And though I think it was a horrible trade, just because Bay hasn't had to deal with playoff pressure, doesn't mean he's going to struggle. Maybe this is exactly what he needs.
Thank YOU, Ken.
Interesting about Pena. He's 23, from Mexico and is batting .271. He didn't play in Trenton's game this afternoon, so I assume he is already headed to SWR. He's 5'11, 165 lbs.
Look, I agree that Boston really couldn't let Ramirez remain on the team and risk his antics continuing. But, Manny is headed to the HOF and is still a very good player. Bay doesn't stink, but he also won't be producing at Manny's level. Yankee fans should be content that Manny is gone. It was unreasonable to believe that Boston wasn't going to get something of value for him.
Richie G. - Manny is still quite productive.
Jim, you make cogent points in comparing Bay and Manny.
However, keep this in mind:
Last night, Bay was hitting in between Doumit and Mientkiewicz in a fairly neutral ballpark. Tomorrow night, Bay will be bookended by Ortiz and JD Drew in a right-handed batter's paradise.
Accordingly, he may experience at least a modest increase in his offensive numbers wearing a Boston uni.
Maybe, JE, maybe. I think the Boston front office has to look at this trade as excising a problem and getting back just about as much as could be expected. It wasn't an equal swap, especially considering the huge amount of money changing hands and the fact that Hansen was sent elsewhere, too. Hansen hasn't been able to get his act together yet, but he is only 24 and has talent. I wouldn't be surprised if doesn't become effective.
I think Bay is good, maybe even very good. But, Bay isn't Manny. Strictly speaking "on the field," this is a net loss for Boston. All things considered (Manny's antics and possibly making out on purpose in that one game) it's as good as it gets.
When we say, "on the field," Jim, are we addressing defense too?
Everything. Manny is the better all-around player, IMHO. Manny has a slightly higher fielding pct I'm not familiar enough with the two in the field. Is Bay fleet-footed? Does he cover much more ground? Obviously Manny's talent lies in his bat.
Manny is a real good fielder when he wants to be. Unfortunately he has rarely ever wanted to be.
Ken--who do you think will play the other 2 OF positions for the Dodgers the rest of the year? They clearly had a PR problem even before this trade was made. I wouldn't go so far as to say the Dodgers won themselves a playoff spot today because they pitching is still a mess.
JE: Torre has played young players before. And liked it. Coletti may not like them because he's in deep because of some of his moves, and needs to win now to save his job.
Bay upgrades the outfield defense, Jim. For exmple. his RZR percentage has been superior to Manny's in every season that both have been regulars.
We'll see, Sandy. If Ethier and Kemp don't start alongside Manny in the outfield every day in August, then you'll reassess, right? ;-)
JE, take Manny's attitude problem out of the equation. So you think this trade is a net-gain for Boston?
I'd guess that Torre would continue to juggle with Ethier, Kemp, PIerre and Andruw, Sandy, with the latter two forming baseball's most expensive bench in history on many nights. But I'm going on a Colletti conference call in 20 minutes, so I'll let you know if that changes.
Lighten up, KD, you don't suck. Like you say, we're all about the debate here. But I sure hope you (and I) are wrong on Pudge/Farnsey.
And I have to disagree on the Manny deal: Someone is going to have to take some time and talk... very... slowly to explain this one to me. Though the fact that Theo spent the week BURNING the phone lines should have said how determined they were to get him out of town. But they ship out Manny and $7,000,000 and all they get back is Jason Bay? Bay's good. He's not that good. That's a big price for addition by subtraction.
BTW, nice job by the Mets, doing... um... nothing...
Have fun on the call, Ken. I am amazed that Coletti got maximum value for LaRoche after he had done everything possible to reduce it to zero.
Jim, it's a minor net-loss -- the best that the Sox could do under the circumstances. Theo probably wishes that he could have had an extra couple of days to get a better deal.
BTW, Sheehan needs to get out of his mom's basement and go out and kiss a girl or something. Keeping Bonds out is hurting the integrity of the game? Maybe he meant to say "improving" the integrity of the game. Where does he get off comparing a 40-something, broken-down injury-prone steroid abuser who's maybe hours away from a Federal indictment with the best right-handed hitter since Joe DiMaggio who's still on the edge of his prime?
The statheads... the curse of the game...
Maybe Joe meant to say "it's a damn DUMB question"... maybe it's his typing.
Yankee fans, myself included, have been all worked up about possibly getting Washburn and having to pay him $10.35 million next year. The Red Sox paid $7 million to get rid of a Hall of Fame bound player and they had to ship out a pitcher who has appeard in 32 games for them already this year. (I don't know who is paying the $1 million "relocation" bonus. Ken, any answers on that one?)
Tim N.: Bonds has already been indicted by the feds. Do you mean he is facing another potential indictment?
Let's shake things up a little bit:
Dennis, in I-Rod's first game calling pitches behind the plate for the Yankees, Pettitte has gotten bombed for eight hits and two homeruns in just 3 innings. Plus, I-Rod K'd in his only time up. What do you think?
Yeah, it's those damn stats that are ruining baseball. Let's see: wins, losses, runs batted in, batting average....
Seriously, Tim, here are Bonds' stats for '07:
BA OBP SLG OPS
.276 .480 .565 1.045
Here are Manny's from last year:
BA OBP SLG OPS
.296 .388 .493 .881
Hmmm.
Broken down? Nonsense. I'll put him up against Manny in left field ANY DAY. Bonds played in 126 games last season; Manny only chalked up 133, and that's with the occasional DH gig thrown in! (How about that?) Barry even stole five bases without being caught!
Bonds will have his day in court next year. Until then, a pro-Manny guy is the last person who should be casting stones about character....
Hey, Tim. In the final paragraph, I had meant to type "about another player's character...." We have fundamental disagreements on the value of advanced stats and Bonds/Ramirez, to be sure, but they're cordial ones.
Thanks, JE. Totally. Completely cordial. And I was following your argument until the last line...
Pro-Manny? Dude, I'm a Yankee fan. There was nobody doing the happy dance faster than me today. I've had no use for Manny going back to Cleveland. I've got less regard for him than I've got for Bonds and Sheehan.
Well, maybe not Sheehan. When you start talking about "Bonds" and "integrity" it just gets me going. To me, and it's only my opinion, but all of Bonds' numbers are suspect. And that's just one thing that doesn't factor into the Sabermetrics algorithm.
But we're getting off-topic. The Sox got taken. And I guess they had no choice, given the spot they were in. But right now the deal looks like Manny, Craig Hansen, Brandon Moss, and $7M for Jason Bay. Jason Bay.
I think even Sheehan would agree that's not exactly an even deal.
Seems to me that the Marlins got greedy. They ask the Red Sox to paid $9 million instead of $7 million of the remaining salary. And the Marlins didn't really want to part with power-hitting prospect Mike Stanton or minor league pitcher Ryan Tucker. Meanwhile the Dodgers had offer Matt Kemp and/or Andre Eithier as part of the deal, but neither of them was part of the deal. The Dodgers now have a logjam in the outfielder with Manny, Andruw Jones, Juan Pierre, Ethier and Kemp. 2 of those guys will have to sit. Too bad their's no DH for Torre to used.
Bay has never play in a big game in his life. Playing on a losing franchise like the Pirates gets you lost in the shuffle and Bay was under the radar. Now, Bay will be playing on a contending team with the Red Sox. He will be look at very closely by Red Sox fans who expect Bay to put up numbers. I can see Bay struggle early because he has to fill the shoes of Manny. In a big game, I'll take my chances on Bay because he is unproven in clutch situations unlike Manny.
Jim, you can't judge Pudge after one game. Pettitte didn't have his control tonight. The Angels are my least favorite team to play against the Yanks, more than the Red Sox and Mets.
Thank god Manny is outta here. No more Manny to worry about for the Yanks.
The Manny trade will take 60 days or more to decipher.
The acquisition of Griffey (.245) is more interesting.....
Here you go, Tim! Sheehan penned this just for you, I'm sure! ;-)
"Don't get caught up in the idea of Hansen and Moss as prospects. They're not prospects for the Red Sox--neither had any chance of ever contributing to them beyond low-leverage work, and neither had much trade value.
"This is, for the Red Sox, Ramirez for Bay. That's a pretty good trade--with defense, Bay is at worst even with Ramirez, and arguably better. They get him for 2009 as well. And, value this however you will--I think things would have been fine in Boston had the trade not happened--they get out from under the current headaches with Ramirez, and the question of the options.
"I don't hate this deal for any of these teams. I think the big winner is, as Jim Baker said, Andy LaRoche. Oh, and Jason Bay did well for himself."
As for my view on Bay, I do agree with Dennis about the guy playing under late-season pressure. Some guys can hack it the first time out, while others can't. But remember: what's true for Bay is equally the case for Robertson, Veras, and Ramirez. So we'll see.
The Red Sox did as well as they good in getting rid of a major headache and very good player. Manny is still very productive. Bay won't replace all of his offense. It's silly to compare the two. But, the Red Sox have Bay for next year at an affordable $7.5 million and have finally silenced their troublemaker. For whatever reason, Hansen never fulfilled his early potential.
Since 2003, the Red Sox have done everything in their power to get rid of Manny. But just when you thought the Red Sox will get rid of manny, they get cold feet, until today. The Red Sox did the best that they can do in getting something for Manny. Big Papi will miss having Manny behind him and will get pitch around a lot resulting in walks.
I remember in 2005 when the Yanks pass on Craig Hansen and took C.J. Henry. Everydody killed the Yanks for passing on Hansen. While Henry did nothing for the Yanks, he was part of a trade that got them Bobby Abreu from the Phillies. Hansen hasn't develop like the Red Sox thought he would after drafting him from St. John's. And now Hansen is going to the Pirates.
Igawa gave up 3 hits, 2 walks and one earned run over 7 innings tonight and is now 11-5. Gardner had 2 hits and a walk.
The Yanks never EVER play well against the Angels. The Angels like to steal bases and take the extra base. They play old school baseball. It helps the Angels that they have a very good pitching staff and THE best manager in baseball in Mike Scioscia. Pettitte did not have his control tonight and he pay for it. If somehow the Yanks can take 2 of the next 3 games against the Angels this weekend, I'll take it. For some reason, the Red Sox always seems to beat the Angels while the Yanks cannot. This year the Angels put a beatdown on the Red Sox winning 8 out of 9 games they play, including the last 8 games.