Poll: The most memorable Mets defeat
If I'm going to keep up this pace of increased blogging, then I'm going to have to occasionally resort to outright theft.
Here's what commenter Andy wrote last week, after this game:
For most teams, if you asked a fan to name the worst loss of the season or the worst loss in franchise history, it would probably come down to a handful of games if not a unanimous choice. For the Mets, however, it's an embarassment of riches. You'd have to break it down by category - regular season or post season? Pre- or post-All Star break? Which decade? Home or road?
So let's do it. Correct me if I'm wrong, old-timers, but it seems like, in their first 25 years of existence, the Mets didn't suffer any profound heartbreakers. Their first winning season produced a World Series title, they had a few decent years after 1969 (including the 1973 "Ya Gotta Believe" group) and then they ascended smoothly to the 1986 crown.
With that in mind, here are your choices:
A) Cardinals 6, Mets 4, September 11, 1987, at Shea Stadium. Here is your box score. It's funny, I always thought this happened later in the season. But when Terry Pendleton hit a game-tying, two-run homer off Roger McDowell, with two outs in the ninth inning, it proved to be a death blow for these Mets, who were trying to defend their World Series championship.
B) Dodgers 5, Mets 4, October 9, 1988, at Shea. Game 4 of the NLCS. Here is the box score. The Mets were three outs away from taking a 3-1 lead in games before Dwight Gooden walked John Shelby and served up a game-tying, two-run homer to Mike Scioscia. Then, in the 12th, braveheart Kirk Gibson hit a solo blast to give the Dodgers the tide-turning victory.
C) Braves 7, Mets 2, September 27, 1998, at Turner Field. Here is the box score. The Mets, still mathematically alive for the NL wild card, dropped their fifth straight game to end the season is misery. Had they won, they would have pulled into a three-way tie with the Cubs and Giants for the playoff spot.
D) Braves 10, Mets 9, 11 innings, October 19, 1999, at Turner Field. Game 6 of the NLCS. Here is the box score. Kenny Rogers. Andruw Jones. Four pitches, four balls. Wait 'til next year, Mets.
E) Yankees 4, Mets 2, October 26, 2000, at Shea. Game 5 of the World Series. Here is the box score. You could probably pick any of the four losses from this series, couldn't you? It's a tribute to these Mets that this was one of the tightest, most exciting five-game Fall Classics ever. Anyway, Al Leiter's impressive grind of a work shift concluded with Luis Sojo's 32-bouncer up the middle in the ninth. I thought of this hit Sunday night when Brett Gardner's squibber got through off Jonathan Papelbon.
F) Cardinals 3, Mets 1, October 19, 2006, at Shea. Game 7 of the NLCS. Here is the box score. Endy Chavez's catch went for naught. Yadier Molina took Aaron Heilman deep in the ninth. And Carlos Beltran looked at strike three. You've got to figure that Willie Randolph is home right now, thinking about this one.
G) Marlins 8, Mets 1, September 30, 2007,, at Shea. Here is the box score. The Collapse became reality. But, on the bright side, Tom Glavine said he wasn't devastated.
H) None of the above.
Let's hear from you.
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Comments (32)
Hey Ken.
Sure, all these choices are 'winners' for the worst loss in franchise history but my selection was that sad June day in 1977 when the 'Franchise' was jettisoned to the Reds.
~H
Umm.... I think it was Yanks 4, Mets 2, Game 5.
I just remember poor Al Leiter throwing pitch after pitch after pitch... his count was up to 346 at one point...
Thanks, Tim. Corrected.
It was the Gooden pitch to Scioscia, no doubt. Unlike the Sojo dribbler in 2000 or the Molina home run in 2006, we were about to win the 1988 NLCS, ready to punch our ticket to the World Series and avenge the 1973 World Series defeat. Also, no Met fan watching that game thought that Gooden would give up the lead. (After all, in our collective minds, it had never happened before.)
My God, how you can pick just one? As far as I'm concerned, the Mets have had far more memorable losses than memorable wins. But, I, too have to vote for M. Donald Grant's massacre in June 1977. Never mind that Tom Seaver was trying to pull a fast one by renegotiating his contract in the middle of its three year duration because he got greedy when he saw salaries sharply escalating. Grant, who incidentally was born in Canada and related whose father is in the NHL HOF, didn't have the temperament to be the front - or back - man in an organization. He was suspected of planting a nasty little article in the The Times about Seaver's wife. Grant helped run the Mets into the ground in just a couple of years. Some of us remember how Shea was called Grant's Tomb to reflect the fact no one attended games because the team stunk.
It's not amazing that when starters go 7 innings or more and cut out the weak middle relief of the Mets (or at least hand them a large enough lead that even they can't jeopardize it) that the Mets win. Any team would!
My bad memory Mets game would be the 2000 WS Game one when Timo Perez did not run hard on a double by Todd Pratt and was thrown out by Justice and Jeter at the plate.
My pick is Game 7 NLCS between the Mets and Cardinals because it happen more recently. When Endy Chavez made that catch in the 6th inning, nobody thought the Mets were going to lose. Plus the Mets were consider the best team in the NL that year, and were better than the Cardinals. But they lost. The last game of the season against the Marlins last year is 2nd because it complete the collapse which the Mets are trying to recover from right now.
The Yanks had a good night. Pettitte pitch great. Jeter drive in 2 runs and made a nice play in the 7th. Jeter ranged to his right, jumps and makes the throw to Cano for the force.
Ken, the Mets' handling of Church has been a disgrace. What if he can't play ever again? We know more now than we ever did about the effects of concussions and how dangerous they are -- and yet the Mets didn't seem to have Church's best interests in mind. It's almost as if they said "we need to win; screw the consequences." Players from all sports retire because of continual concussions because of the long-term damage it causes. It's known that when you get a concussion you need to be extra-cautious and give a person more rest than they think they need. It's mind-boggling that they let Church continue to play. And I seriously believe if they had not been going through a rough season that they would have DL'd him right away, which is absolutely vile on their part.
Hard to say with out access to the medical report or comments from the training staff. I think the org and Willie were in all hands on deck mode. Thankfully Jerry the Gangsta has nipped that garbage in the bud. Nothing vile in putting your best team on the field unless you know a player is at increased risk. You are assuming "they" did because of the outcome. And who was at fault? Team doctors? Trainers? Omar? Willie? Wilpons?
Carig - How about "all of the above?" Did anyone say, "Hold on here. What is in the best interest of Ryan's long term health?"
The first mouth and a half of the season, Church was the Mets best player. Now, who knows if we see Church at all the rest of the season. The Mets completely screw up the Church situation after he suffer his 2nd concussion. Anything the Mets get out of Church this year is now consider a bonus.
Jim, IIRC, it wasn't a piece in the Times, it was a piece in the Daily News by M Donald Grant's buddy, DIck Young, who blamed Nancy Seaver for agitating Tom into conflict with Grant because she was jealous of Ruth (Nolan's wife) Ryan. Seaver had been trying to come to terms with Grant, but when that came out, he called Joe McDonald and said, "That's it, I'm out of here."
Speaking of low points, that was certainly low point in journalism.
As for my personal hideous Mets defeat, that would be (B) Dodgers 5, Mets 4, October 9, 1988.
Why don't we call Jeff Novitzky and have him illegally obtain Church's medical records? After all, he's done it befroe, has no qualms about 4th amendment right or HIPAA, and to qoute Dean Wormer in "Animal House", "he's a sneaky little ####".
as for team hospitals...
http://apse.dallasnews.com/contest/2004/writing/over250/over250_explanatory_fourth.html (Bill Pennington NY Times)
"The Mets, for example, are paid more than $1 million a year by the New York University-Hospital for Joint Diseases, with the hospital providing the services of its doctors at no cost. In return, the hospital advertises at Shea Stadium and receives free tickets and periodic visits from players at hospital events. When the Mets signed their seven-year deal in 2001, their longtime team doctor, Dr. David Altchek, was let go."
Young driving Seaver out of town pretty much ruined his legacy as a great sportswriter and he soon left the News, bitterly, went to the Post and continued to write bitter columns for the rest of his career. BTW Ruth Ryan was way hotter than Nancy Seaver, but Nancy was NY's golden girl.
First of all, Ken, I am honored to have inspired one of your blog posts.
The game I was thinking of when I made the comment was the Scioscia game. But the rest of the games you've listed have all made me want to vomit.
Other random nauseating memories - Wagner's meltdown against the Yankees during a Saturday afternoon FOX game (slow and painful)... Mel Rojas serving up against the Yanks at Shea while I was online in the men's room (I just heard a cheer and knew something bad had happened)... last year's series in Philly where they seemed to find new and excruciating ways to lose each game... countless others.
Boy, you'd have a short list for most memorable wins.
Theresa, of course you are right. Dick Young hated free agency and in M. Donald Grant he had a kindred spirit. It was a little surreal when Young was introduced at his HOF induction and instead of cheers received probably the loudest boos in Cooperstown history.
seem to recall a game back in either '84 or '85 in which Rusty Staub's go-ahead homer in the bottom of the eight was ruined by the sloppy play of some skinny nobody the Mets threw out in right. The bullpen blew the lead and having already pinch-hit Staub was unavailable for a repeat performance. I remember commenting on how that scrawny outfielder misplayed the ball and would never amount to anything. The player of course turned out to be Len Dykstra (pre-roids). Worst loss I remember, either that or the back-end of a Sunday double header in '79 against the Padres in which Doug Flynn failed to score from second on a John Stearns single in the eigth. They all sting.
Ken, on the way up in 1985, the Mets were three out with 6 to play. They get the first two from St. Louis, load the bases in the top of the 1st with no out and George Foster hits into a double play and the Mets only get 1 run. They lose 4-3.
How about the games in September 2001 when the Mets give up
7 runs in the 9th to lose to the Braves.
August 20, 1989, Willie Randolph of the LA Dodgers hits a 3 run homer with two out and that basically sank the Mets momentum the rest of the way.
B- Game 4 - When Sciocias ball went out of the ballpark you could have heard a pin drop. The fact that it was off Gooden was mind numbing and then Gibson 's just let the air out of the tires.
And worst moment in Met history was the day they traded the franchise.
After Dick Young died in the early 80's the Village Voice of all papers ran a column "Dick Young from Hell." June 15, 1977, a day that will live in infamy. The Mets played the Reds a couple of days after that and my brother took me to the game for my 11th birthday. You think Shea is hostile now, that was the angriest group of people I have ever sat with.
Interesting that Don Mattingly is taking over as the LA hitting coach after the AS break. Mike Easler is being reassigned. It's is going to be the 9th change in hitting coaches in 10 years!
Most hitting coaches are hired simply to be tossed overboard or be a sacrificial lamb if a team does poorly. Knowing this, the coaches hang with players who are hot and take credit while avoiding ones who need help.
The same thing applies to pitching. Don MacMahon would hang around Giants' starters who were throwing well and openly admitted he was a front runner. This left bullpen coach John Van Ornum to work with anyone who needed assistance.
Ken, what's the inside word on Gary Denbo? He recently got fired in Toronto. He's been in a couple of organizations as a hitting coach/coordinator, minor league manager, major league scout, etc. He even coached in Japan. Jeter, Posada, Bernie Williams and some other guys spoke highly of him. What's his rep in the game?
Ken, great Baseball Insider this week. Hooray for Barry Zito! He makes a lot of money, but it is very nice to see him donating a ton of money to a very, very worthy cause. He's one of the good guys.
Hey Ken.
I've been reading all these comments surrounding the mishandling of Mr. Church and it's very alarming. What's next, our beloved right fielder is sent to Dr. Nick? 'Hi everybody, I'm Dr. Nick, where is the hurt?'
Oh, I remember that Saturday Fox game from a few years ago against the Skankees. I was at a conference in Austin and sat in the hotel bar watching our Mets cruise to a tidy victory. When Wagner imploded, I was so visibly upset, the bartender slid two (2) shots of tequila my way and asked for my firearm.
~H
Jim, Denbo has a rep as a hard worker and is a favorite of the players'. There was tension during Chambliss' final years as hitting coach with the Yankees (1999 and 2000) because it was evident the hitters were more comfortable working with Denbo (who was based in Florida) than with Chambliss - and when Denbo replaced Chambliss in 2001, Torre wanted nothing to do with him.
The Jays thought enough of Denbo's work to give him a two-year deal, so he's financially covered for a while. I'd bet on him eventually returning to the Yankees' minor-league system. He lives in Tampa and has many allies in Tampa.
Ken I said this at the end of the Phillies series. I'm starting to like what I see. Maybe they are just soft now? haha.
As for the worst loss...for me it was October 3 1985 when we lost Game 3 of that great regular season series to the Cardinals. I'll let you know when I'm over it. I think Hernandez was 5-5 that game.
But the worst loss franchise wise...I'd say it was the Game 7 in 2006. They probably win the World Series with that win, and the collapse in 07' never happens.
Ken, the Red Sox won big today but Beckett didn't have a great game, although he picked up the win. 104 pitches in 5 innings, 8 hits, two walk and two homeruns along with 5 earned runs. Is something wrong with him? Is his velocity down or is he just missing spots?
Yanks have had a bunch of terrible losses recently themselves:
Off the top of my head, 1995 Game 5 ALDS
1997 Game 4 ALDS
2001 Game 7 WS
2004 Games 4 and 5 ALCS
I know I'm missing a game here but for regular season losses that Saturday afternoon game at Fenway when A-Rod and Varitek went after each other.
I haven't seen anything specifically wrong with Beckett, Jim, but it's certainly not a shocker to see a little regression after he pitched so deep into the postseason last year.
Worst Mets loss before 1987 was the death of Gil Hodges in the spring 1972 during baseball's first strike. Game loss back then? Probably game 3 of the 1973 World Series when Jerry Grote channeled Mickey Owens 1941. There was also a game in the 1970 pennant race the Mets lost because a runner scored from second on a wild pitch.
Jim, yes, IIRC, Dick Young had some other kind of connection with MDG-- his son was working for him in some capacity-- strange bedfellows, since Grant was a grandee of sorts, and Young had always styled himself a man of the people. How Young twisted himself up into identifying so completely with regressive management and top-down authoritarian policies-- something in any other context he would have despised-- is probably fodder for the psychiatric profession.