Hey, who says the Mets can't win without Billy Wagner? Piece of cake!
For some reason, my warped mind summoned a scene from "The Lonely Guy." Not this scene here. Rather, it's at the very beginning, when Steve Martin's character discovers that his girlfriend is cheating on him and is unsure how to handle the situation.
"Hold it," he says, according to this site, "I think I've got it. Yes, yes. What the hell's going on here? What's he doing in this bed? You disgust me, both of you! I'm getting out of here, and i never want to see you in my life again!"
Steve Martin then turns to the camera and says, "I think I handled that rather well."
The Mets last night seemed equally uncertain what they should do with such a four-run lead in the ninth. And after Aaron Heilman made things very interesting, Joe Smith and Scott Schoeneweis restored order just in time, and you got the sense that afterward, Jerry Manuel and his relievers wanted to turn to the camera and get some reassurance that they handled it all right.
These Mets are a fascinating bunch. Two homers from Fernando Tatis? A big hit by Dan Murphy? You get the sense that their fate is going to go down to the very end of the season, just as it did last year.
That has to be it for Heilman as closer, right? What a catastrophic season it has been for him. You'd have to guess that the Mets will shop him this winter, and if they do, they'll be selling low.
At least the Mets won. The Yankees, well, their season is really starting to tumble now, after another loss last night. Andy Pettitte really has let the Yankees down in his last two starts. Jim, I know you're big on projecting next year's roster. The projections keep changing. If Pettitte can't turn himself back around, the Yankees are going to tell him, "Thanks, but no thanks" on next year. But I think Pettitte will start pitching better.
When an athlete goes to see James Andrews, as Joba Chamberlain will today, you can't get much more discouraging news. At this point, Yankees fans, you should probably be prepared to view Joba missing the rest of the season, and only the rest of the season, as the best-case scenario.
I find it highly entertaining that Rangers president Nolan Ryan sits in the luxury box so close to the field during these Rangers games. Good for him that he's so into his new job. Could you imagine other team presidents high-fiving the players after big moments? I can't quite see the Yankees' Randy Levine or the Mets' Saul Katz pulling that off.
It's about time to put the Tigers to rest, don't you think? Yet again last night, they blew multiple leads. You could argue that the Tigers missing this year's playoffs will be more of a bust than the Yankees missing them. At least the Yankees signalled their forward-thinking direction when they neglected to trade for Johan Santana. The Tigers, on the other hand, gutted their farm system to get Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis.
Freddy Garcia finally auditioned for interested teams yesterday. We should get a sense, quickly, what teams thought of Garcia. So many clubs need so much help that if Garcia has something to offer, a team will quickly bring him aboard.
Posted by Ken Davidoff on August 6, 2008 12:57 AM
|Permalink
Comments (45)
Ken, I have been wondering about Pettitte, too, and whether he is worth $16 million for next season. I assume he would want the same amount of money. He's younger than Mussina, but he has looked much worse at times. But, can the Yankees risk going into a new season with Hughes, Kennedy and now an injured Joba in the rotation? They need workhorse type guys and might have to overpay for them.
Fair point, Jim. Maybe they do make a hard run after Sabathia, although I'd question the wisdom of recruiting someone to the Bronx who doesn't want to be there.
To answer your items from the previous thread:
Thanks for finding that Girardi quote on Bruney. Odd quote. But at the end of the day, the Yankees still had to think that Bruney could help them more than Britton could.
As for teams that have lost 60% of their starters to injury: The Mets (Pedro, Maine, El Duque), Rangers (Millwood, McCarthy and Padilla), Braves (Hudson, Glavine, Smoltz) and Padres (Peavy, Young, Tomko) all come to mind. The Yankees might be unique with 4 of 6. But last year, the Phillies went 4-for-5 (Eaton, Lieber, Garcia, Hamels) and also lost their top 2 relievers, Myers (who converted from starter) and Gordon, for an extended period. Sometimes, certain teams are just snakebit.
To reiterate, if there were a common bond among the four Yankees, I'd be with you. But we're talking about a foot injury, a rib injury, a shoulder injury and a lat injury.
Ken, thanks for listing the staffs of teams that have equally been hit by injuries. Maybe its an unlucky coincidence with the Yankees. If it was training related, I would like they would have made some changes by now. It is frustrating, that's for sure. It's tough to compete for a playoff spot when so many bad things happen. I didn't even get into the position players that have spent time on the DL including A-Rod, Jeter, Posada, Damon and Matsui. It can't even be blamed on an aging roster because many of the pitchers are young. It can be reduced to a simple sentence: This isn't the Yankees' year. (Accept it Dennis and don't take it as a personal insult.)
I would think Pettitte is more likely to come back to the Yanks than Moose in my opinion. 2 bad starts in a row doesn't help. Right now, you can't count on Hughes and Kennedy to be big factors in th rotation next year. What Hughes and Kennedy do the rest of this year is a bonus. At least we know what Joba can do, while Hughes and Kennedy have taking a step back when they were in the majors this year. Jim, I unlike you, won't give up the season until they are offically eliminated from postseason contention. Too many things can happen between now until October, as we saw what happen to the Mets, and what the Rockies did last year.
The Mets, Phillies and Marlins are good teams. The problem is all 3 teams are not capable of taking the division and run away with it, and all 3 teams can't get out of their own way sometimes. The last weekend of the season will be interesting. The Phillies host the Nationals at home. While the Mets play the Marlins in the last regular season series at Shea.
.
Interesting stats about the propensity of starting pitchers that are going down with injuries.
I wonder how that compares to other decades, like the 50's, 60's, and 70's when complete games by pitchers with in vogue.
Gives me cause to wonder about the "100 pitch theory".
(Not that I haven't ALWAYS wondered, in fact chafed about it).
Not to mention all of the emphasis on throwing a pitch (ANY pitch, fastball, slider, curve) at a plus 90 MPH.
(I still get a kick out of paying a guy to "put a gun" on every pitch thrown--- and then coaches running to the phone if a guy's fastball loses 3MPH in the 6th inning).
Are pitchers not being allowed to build up arm strength?
Do baseball teams place TOO MUCH emphasis on SPEED AND POWER, and not enough emphasis on PITCHING?
I gotta wonder.
Just some thoughts.....from two time zones away.
Addendum
"and not enough emphasis on PITCHING?"
And by pitching, I mean mechanics, placement, pitch selection. (Greg Maddux type stuff).
Cuz Joba was throwing in the mid 90's on Monday....but his MECHANICS were askew...(see my comment in the 4th inning of the game on the live chat blog).
back from Rockport...
505- I always wondered if the teaching of the split finger fastball caused an increase in injuries. Did the Roger Craig Giants of the mid-eighties exacergate the problem, as everyone tried to emulate Bruce Sutter?
Teams emphasize speed in their pitcher scouting, as they believe they can teach secondary and tertiary pitches to anyone who throws in the mid-nineties. And they convicen pitchers that they have a specific role and inning to pitch, and when they throw outside of that comfort zone they tend to screw up.
Good to see Bob Tufts back in action. I thought that he might have been put on the DL with a pulled hamstring or something of that nature. Age can do that. In ref to the Tigers, it is just another illustration that there are no "guarantees" or "science" to this whole thing. Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon, for example, were just plain dumb luck. It helps to be smart, but it helps a lot more to be lucky.
Steve - just AWOL and suffering from watching Red Sox on NESN. It makes YES and SNY look like "Masterpiece Theater".
I watched the A's - Sox while re-reading "Moneyball". I got the sickening thought that Alderson, LaRussa et al pursuing on base percents and power and fueling the steroid problem by turning their heads. - be it from Canseco/McGwire in the late 80's/early 90's or Giambi/Giambi/Tejeda in the late 90's/early 00's.
Did they know and trade players not just because they couldn't afford them, but that the steroids pumped up their power numbers and they could unload them for more prospects - and the departed players acted like Johnny Appleseed for illegal PED's with their new teams?
The Yankees more or less embarrassed themselves last night. Once again, as they have done many times this year, they couldn't hit a mediocre pitcher. He came into the game with a whopping four Ks in over twenty innings -- which is a terrible strikeout rate -- and of course he Ks the first batter and then four more. This is the type of pitcher they should dominate, and have in the past, but this year the offense just isn't the same.
This was the second night in a row a reliever had to throw 40+ pitches, which shows the effect (and soon the aftereffect) of having bad starting pitching. The bullpen is about to get stretched thin.
And A-Rod -- c'mon. Richie Sexson somehow hits a grand slam -- the most improbable thing imaginable -- and you can't hit Eddie Guardado's 85-mph fastballs? A-Rod's having a great year statistically, but he seems to have the same holes in his swing this year that he did in 2006.
baileywalk, I agree with you on the Yanks offense. The Yanks offense has been hot or cold all year. A-Rod is hard to figure out. When he is up to the plate with RISP, he is in a no-win situation. If he gets a clutch hit, people will say they expect it. But when he doesn't, everybody will hammer him big time.Yankees fans also are in a no-win situation when A-Rod is at the plate with RISP. They wanted A-Rod to get a clutch hit, but at the same time they have no confidence that he will. Don't forget that the Yanks don't have a off day until a week from Thursday, August 14. So Girardi is trying to get his relievers out of the pen to pitch more than they should when the starters get knock out.
When you look at all the 2006 Marlins starters who stink now or got hurt last season and just getting back now, and all the starting pitching on the Yankees this season who got hurt, you have to begin to wonder what role Girardi and his ways plays into everything. I don't see him as a Dusty Baker who allows his pitchers to throw 140 pitches a game with regularity, but maybe the spring training drill sergeant technique isn't the way to go?
Ken--Heilman's future is definitely not as a Met, but what teams do you see actually wanting him? It's not like he's done anything in his career so far and if anything he's gotten worse, not better. I'm not even sure a team like Washington would give the Mets anything for him.
Jim,
Back to a previous thread about rating Girardi this year.
This road trip is gonna be a huge barometer.
And things have certainly gotten off on the wrong foot.
The Yankess are simply not playing good baseball right now.
And this is the wrong time of the year to be catching that virus.
Could be a REALLY long trip unless Girardi figures out a way to get the leaders (A-Rod, Jeter) to start leading.
And I am getting more than a little concerned about "the chemistry" within the batteries. (without naming names, which will only give credence to Davidoff's opposition to the Farnsworth trade, albeit for a different reason).
Ken, after seeing the Mets near-meltdown last night, I re-read Jim Caple's fantastic article on ESPN.com talking about how the role of a closer is way, way overrated. It's not a "closer-by-committee." It's called using your bullpen wisely! Heilman couldn't get it done (though he wasn't backed by particularly stellar defense), so Jerry Manuel used both Smith and Schoeneweis to get the job done. Good move: it got the Mets the W and that's all that matters at the end of the day. You can read Caple's article here, it's a great read:
I-505: I agree about the pitcher-catcher chemsitry. Lay people might laugh at this but it does matter to pitchers. It has to be hard changes catchers in the middle of the season. Although Posada didn't play much at C this season, these guys have now thrown to multiple catchers. It compounds the team's other problems.
A-Rod is capable of carrying this team if he gets hot. But, he isn't a leader and probably never will be. I don't know if it's just not in him or if he just doesn't want to be bothered with the role.
We have spoken about Cano's offensive problems, but he's less than 20 points beneath Jeter and closing fast. Jeter is either having an off-year or is heading into real decline brought on by age.
Hi Bob, I sure am glad you are back in the fold. I almost left over the Bowie-censorship thing. Didn't know if it "got" to you, too. I'm glad Ken reached out about it before I went to Rockport.
Sandy, it is way overstating it to assert that Heilman "hasn't done anything in his career so far." He was an above-average relief pitcher from 2005 through 2007. There are plenty of teams who would be interested in a live arm such as his.
Thanks for the Caple link, Doug. Good story.
Jim:
I'll just move on and say that the person in charge who stood by and allowed one league to use a DH and the other to abstain from the practice must have made his only error that day. (By the way, if MLB teams want to save money, they can eliminate the DH and probably save $ 3 to $ 10 million per year as they substitute a near minimum salary back of the bullpen pitcher for a veteran power hitter on the roster. We have enough offense in MLB right now, perhaps the current and well respected leader of baseball can end the DH issue by use of his well known leadership skills?)
As to throwing to multiple catchers, if the P and C have done their homework pre-game on how they want to approach a batter, there should be no or little problem. The catcher's job is to take the thinking process away from the pitcher (and in many cases, the manager's call pitches anyway) and just let them throw the ball.
Bob, maybe Senator Mitchell can be brought in to study the DH/No-DH issue. He could take a few months, fly around the country interviewing former and current players and executives, have a public listening session with fans and then issue a report. He should be able to get it by the MLBPA. After all, he did bring peace to Northern Ireland. He probably only needs one more high profile endeavor to insure his place in the HOF. His plaque could be hung not far from B--ie K. (Sorry Ken. A Tums might help.)
Wow...Joba going down will kill whatever season he misses. They cant replace him.
As for the Muts...can you imagine where they would be without my boy Fernando Tatis?? The next time someone tells you chemestry doesn't matter, point to him. If the Mets make the playoffs, he could arguably get some 9th/10th place MVP votes. His stats wont warrant it. But the amount of games the Mets won because of him do.
Hey Ken.
Maybe Maine, Wagner & Chamberlain should alter their mechanics and throw underhand.
~H
If Joba is done for 2008, I think the Yankees really need to sign Freddy Garcia if the guy can pitch on the MLB level. Let's work on getting through this season instead of expecting Kennedy, Hughes or even Wang to return and perform some type of magic. It looks like Ponson is going nowhere. A rotation of Pettitte, Mussina, Ponson, Giese and Garcia/Kennedy isn't exactly Cuellar, McNally, Dobson and Palmer, but it will have to do.
Bob: Could all of the injuries to Yankee pitchers and position players this year be attributed to some training flaw or are they all bad luck/coincidence?
Jim:
With Ken's permission I will get you a bromo or beverage and we will solve the problems of baseball....away from Ken's site.
As for injuries, I cannot say what it is...but the amount of Yankee injuries is the same as it was under non-taskmaster Joe.
Wagner has been throwing hard for years with an undersized body. The stress and strain he puts on his arm is equivalent to what Guidry did. Chamberlain seems to be in love with throwing his breaking ball as hard as possible and frequently. I watch his shoulder on the follow-through and worry. Maine went from nothing to almost 200 innings last year, was on a pace for 200 this year and may have reached his physical limit.
Watch a slow motion of a pitcher's arm pre-delivery and you will see it is not a natural motion. Injuries should be more common than they are, and player like Nolan Ryan were freaks of nature to survive that long.
Bob, I have watched and wondered about Joba and the breaking pitch, but don't have the expertise to really understand it. On Maine, I thought the same thing even before he got hurt.
Agree on the unnatural motion involved in throwing a ball> I remember reading/listening to a presentation years ago about the thousand of capillaries busted when pitching. Perhaps this is why an effective conditioning regimen and post-game icing, etc., is so important. But, again, I don't really know what I am even talking about. I haven't studied it enough and obviously never experienced it.
Yeh, one day we will have to get together and have Ken there and go about solving all of baseball's problems in one fell swoop.
As for Los Mets, a win is a win. The New York Yankee$ are toast if Joba is done. It's about the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim from this point forward.
Any article about sports not mentioning the retired/unretired/retired/not sure about unretiring Brett Favre is okay by me. Well done, KD.
Maybe an offseason get-together is in order. We can get beers, "hustle" up to the bar in honor of Richie G., wear Mike & the Mad Dog T-shirts in honor of Dennis and put together a Bowie Kuhn pinata. ;)
Ken I was thinking the same thing. We need an off-season get together. Maybe even a October playoff gettogether.
And I appreciate the hustle for the beers, but I'm on a strict diet right now. Down to 189 from 222...so the beers will have to wait!!
Joshua Shulman of Valley Stream New York USA, I was just wondering what your zip code is. Can you please be more specific next time?
And I do agree with you Joshua, Brett Favre should not be allowed to change his mind.
Its not like he beat his wife, did steroids, or sexually abused someone. For if he did that...no one would have a problem with him coming back to the Packers.
Forget Bowie; Should Bill Veeck be in the HOF?
I have been reading a great deal about him and especially the Eddie Gaedel episode. I haven't been able to pin this down definitively and might have to call his son in MN.
One of two things happened: Veeck was concerned that Gaedel would actually swing at a pitch so he told him, 1) that he had hired a man armed with a high powered rifle who was sitting high in the stands with orders to shoot Gaedel if he dared to swing at a pitch or 2) that Veeck himself had the rifle and would shoot him if Gaedel swung.
If that had happened today or during Bowie's time, Veeck would have been suspended and maybe even arrested. But, instead he is in the Hall of Fame. Ken Burns covered this in Baseball on PBS in and his compansion book. I'm sitting in a Panera Bread and don't have access to my book right now, but the above is a pretty accurate description. I believe Burns repeated the story about the marksman in the stands.
After the commissioner voided Gaedel's contract Veeck held some kind of press conference and said he was outraged and was going to ask for a ruling about Phil Rizzuto to determine if he was just short or if he was a tall midget, thus deserving of having his contract voided. Rizzuto had won the MVP award the season before.
The whole Gaedel thing took place in St. Louis on 8.17.51. Incidentally, Gaedel was only 36 when he died. The only person associated with baseball to attend his funeral was the guy who pitched to him, Bob Cain, who died 11 years ago.
Ken, can I talk about Veeck/Gaedel? Am I driving you crazy yet?
For those of you who want the Yankees to replace Joba with Freddy Garcia, if Joba is done for the year--remember this: Freddy needs to go pitch some rehabilitation games in the minors first and probably wouldn't be ready for the majors until 3 or more weeks after he is signed. Pavano is ahead of him in that respect and much as it disgusts me to say it, since they are already paying the guy it might as well be him and Kennedy. They need starters now not the first week of September.
No, not yet, Jim. LOL. I'm giving you plenty of rope.
Sandy, rest assured, Pavano will come up with some sort of boo-boo to ensure that he'll never pitch again in Yankees pinstripes.
Ken, the Midweek Insider was great. I especially enjoyed Part B on honoring these guys before they are no longer with us. Good stuff.
Is the rope to hang myself with so you don't have to do it?
When it comes to Pavano I am reminded of an old trick of the USSR. Dissidents were sent to psychiatric hospitals. After all, if you couldn't see that the Soviet Union was paradise, then you must have been crazy. Pavano seems to not want to play on the MLB level (if anywhere). So, if he says he now is ready to play, there must be something wrong with him because it flies in the face of what passes as "normal" for him. The Yankees will then have to put him on the DL immediately.
I'm with you, Ken. I seriously doubt if he ever is allowed on the field at Yankee Stadium again.
Richie H G - it is 11581, why do you ask? Are you obsessed with your weight? Let me guess - you were up, you were down, you were up, you were down. If you were on the Packers, they would make you stick to either fat or skinny so they could just move on already and not have to deal with the media circus you caused.
Sandy/Ken - yeah, Freddy G and/or Pavano and/or Kennedy is not the answer. It doesn't matter though...as long as Mussina is on the team, the Yankee$ will not win it all. The jinx is very much real.
Why rush Kennedy? That already got them in trouble. If he comes up again and bombs out he might be permanent toast and he will also have much less trade value.
Garcia costs nothing but money. Are there no games in Sept? So what if he can only pitch then. Those gams count, too.
Pavano? They should have probably released him. If I was Cashman I wouldn't want that guy in a uniform. He has made the Yankees look like fools. He also isn't looking particularly strong in the minor leagues.
Sandy is right, if Joba is done for the year, the Yanks would need to get pitchers to start now. By the time Garcia pitches for the Yanks, the Yanks might be out of it. I can definitely see Hughes, Kennedy or Pavano come up and pitch. Heck, Washburn is more ready to pitch now than Garcia.
Ken, since Livan Hernandez was designated for assignment, and if the Rockies who claim him off waviers can't make a deal with the Twins, shouldn't Hernandez be a free agent?
If the Rockies can't make a deal with the Twins, Dennis, then the Twins would have to take him back and put him on their roster. That's not happening.
Dennis, Hughes isn't ready. He won't be ready for weeks. What are you talking about? The guy is throwing three innings and working up his arm strength. Garcia might be ready before Hughes. What do you want? Hughes to blow out his arm? Pavano has been a total loser, why would you want him around the team when the team hates his guts. Ken said he is the most reviled player on his own team that he has ever seen. Kennedy is still not as sharp as he was late last year. If he comes up and is a disaster, what do the Yankees do with him then? Mentally he will be shot. Trade wise his value will drop even further. You are in panic mode, so fearful they won't make the playoffs. So what? Washburn? He's not worth the money or worth the trouble having, clogging up next year's rotation.
Dennis, the Hall of Fame just e-mailed me its weekly online newsletter. The feature is a story about Satchel Paige being 46 when on Aug. 6, 1952 he pitched a shutout for the St. Louis Browns. David Wells is only 45. Do you want the Yankees to sign him?
Chamberlain is going on the DL. Britton is being recalled from AAA. Kennedy is starting on Saturday for the Yankees.
Bob Tufts....
"As to throwing to multiple catchers, if the P and C have done their homework pre-game on how they want to approach a batter, there should be no or little problem."
I agree Bob Tufts.....but I am glad you qualified your statement with "if".
After watching Pettite deliver an extensive monologue to Pudge (staring into space) in the dugout in the bottom of the 2nd of Thursday's Angel game, I can safely assume that Andy was giving Pudge some housing, dining and other relocation advice.
Has anyone else noticed an increase in walks per 9 innings lately? oh, in the last week or so?
I am still giving Pudge a honeymoon.
But I AM beginning to wonder.
Just my opinion....I'll be watching from one time zone away tonight.
Jim, if Joba is out for the rest of the season, the Yanks are going to need pitchers to start games right now as Sandy said. And Yes, I would sign David Wells to pitch but the Yanks won't.
Speaking of retire/unretire/retire/unretire....how about Clemens?
Hah...you just know Waldman would cream (again) over that one.
Dennis, you are getting your wish. I wrote earlier that Kennedy is starting on Sat. I hope he pitches a perfect game but If he bombs, I will be interested to read your analysis.
Jim, I'm only saying that the Yanks need starters to pitch right now. I would like to see Kennedy at least compete in the game, which he didn't do earlier this year.
Chris Young just single to break up the perfect game bid by Jeff Karstens.
Dennis less than a week ago a member of the Yankees "family" said Kennedy's breaking pitch wasn't there yet and it was sharper less Sept than right now. Thus, he didn't did called to pitch, Giese did. Now that they need someone - anyone, he is getting the call. Did he get the breaking pitch down pat in a couple of days? No. He stunk in his first go around. Is he ready now? Maybe. But, if he bombs out and ends up worse off than before, what are you going to say? The Yankees most likely aren't going anywhere. It's a miracle they are where they are now. You want this guy to pitch now, but you might be messing him up for good and reducing the value he can fetch should the Yankees trade him in the off-season. That's my point. So, again I will say it: I like Kennedy and think he has real potential and I want him to pitch a 9 inning shutout on Saturday, but if he bombs out again, what are you going to say about wanting him up here now?
To clarify--I really don't want Pavano, he disgusts me. However, Garcia is useless to the Yankees and for what they need, a waste of money. I don't want to trade for Washburn because you are throwing away a promising player now (and I'm about to wave the white flag on this season) for probably nothing. Give Giese another shot, give the season 2 more weeks and if we have to keep watching the Rays score 6 runs in the bottom of the ninth without making an out and hitting 2 homers, it won't matter anyway. That's their 9th "walk off" win of the season. However their next 10 or 11 games are on the road and they are 5 under .500 on the road. if the Yankees aren't any closer than 5 out in 2 weeks let the waving begin.
OTOH I would love to have Carl Pavano's life. He's is rich beyond most needs, he's somewhat good looking, he had Alyssa Milano (well a lot of players too), he lives in paradise, life for him is good.
505: Bottom of the second inning on 31st July - Ivan led off with a called strikeout. I assume he was ticked and not exactly in the mood to talk.
Pettitte went out in the 3rd and gave up six hits (2 Hr's) and six runs. I think Andy has to take the responsibility for that disaster.
Comments (45)
Ken, I have been wondering about Pettitte, too, and whether he is worth $16 million for next season. I assume he would want the same amount of money. He's younger than Mussina, but he has looked much worse at times. But, can the Yankees risk going into a new season with Hughes, Kennedy and now an injured Joba in the rotation? They need workhorse type guys and might have to overpay for them.
Fair point, Jim. Maybe they do make a hard run after Sabathia, although I'd question the wisdom of recruiting someone to the Bronx who doesn't want to be there.
To answer your items from the previous thread:
Thanks for finding that Girardi quote on Bruney. Odd quote. But at the end of the day, the Yankees still had to think that Bruney could help them more than Britton could.
As for teams that have lost 60% of their starters to injury: The Mets (Pedro, Maine, El Duque), Rangers (Millwood, McCarthy and Padilla), Braves (Hudson, Glavine, Smoltz) and Padres (Peavy, Young, Tomko) all come to mind. The Yankees might be unique with 4 of 6. But last year, the Phillies went 4-for-5 (Eaton, Lieber, Garcia, Hamels) and also lost their top 2 relievers, Myers (who converted from starter) and Gordon, for an extended period. Sometimes, certain teams are just snakebit.
To reiterate, if there were a common bond among the four Yankees, I'd be with you. But we're talking about a foot injury, a rib injury, a shoulder injury and a lat injury.
Ken, thanks for listing the staffs of teams that have equally been hit by injuries. Maybe its an unlucky coincidence with the Yankees. If it was training related, I would like they would have made some changes by now. It is frustrating, that's for sure. It's tough to compete for a playoff spot when so many bad things happen. I didn't even get into the position players that have spent time on the DL including A-Rod, Jeter, Posada, Damon and Matsui. It can't even be blamed on an aging roster because many of the pitchers are young. It can be reduced to a simple sentence: This isn't the Yankees' year. (Accept it Dennis and don't take it as a personal insult.)
I would think Pettitte is more likely to come back to the Yanks than Moose in my opinion. 2 bad starts in a row doesn't help. Right now, you can't count on Hughes and Kennedy to be big factors in th rotation next year. What Hughes and Kennedy do the rest of this year is a bonus. At least we know what Joba can do, while Hughes and Kennedy have taking a step back when they were in the majors this year. Jim, I unlike you, won't give up the season until they are offically eliminated from postseason contention. Too many things can happen between now until October, as we saw what happen to the Mets, and what the Rockies did last year.
The Mets, Phillies and Marlins are good teams. The problem is all 3 teams are not capable of taking the division and run away with it, and all 3 teams can't get out of their own way sometimes. The last weekend of the season will be interesting. The Phillies host the Nationals at home. While the Mets play the Marlins in the last regular season series at Shea.
.
Interesting stats about the propensity of starting pitchers that are going down with injuries.
I wonder how that compares to other decades, like the 50's, 60's, and 70's when complete games by pitchers with in vogue.
Gives me cause to wonder about the "100 pitch theory".
(Not that I haven't ALWAYS wondered, in fact chafed about it).
Not to mention all of the emphasis on throwing a pitch (ANY pitch, fastball, slider, curve) at a plus 90 MPH.
(I still get a kick out of paying a guy to "put a gun" on every pitch thrown--- and then coaches running to the phone if a guy's fastball loses 3MPH in the 6th inning).
Are pitchers not being allowed to build up arm strength?
Do baseball teams place TOO MUCH emphasis on SPEED AND POWER, and not enough emphasis on PITCHING?
I gotta wonder.
Just some thoughts.....from two time zones away.
Addendum
"and not enough emphasis on PITCHING?"
And by pitching, I mean mechanics, placement, pitch selection. (Greg Maddux type stuff).
Cuz Joba was throwing in the mid 90's on Monday....but his MECHANICS were askew...(see my comment in the 4th inning of the game on the live chat blog).
back from Rockport...
505- I always wondered if the teaching of the split finger fastball caused an increase in injuries. Did the Roger Craig Giants of the mid-eighties exacergate the problem, as everyone tried to emulate Bruce Sutter?
Teams emphasize speed in their pitcher scouting, as they believe they can teach secondary and tertiary pitches to anyone who throws in the mid-nineties. And they convicen pitchers that they have a specific role and inning to pitch, and when they throw outside of that comfort zone they tend to screw up.
Good to see Bob Tufts back in action. I thought that he might have been put on the DL with a pulled hamstring or something of that nature. Age can do that. In ref to the Tigers, it is just another illustration that there are no "guarantees" or "science" to this whole thing. Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon, for example, were just plain dumb luck. It helps to be smart, but it helps a lot more to be lucky.
Steve - just AWOL and suffering from watching Red Sox on NESN. It makes YES and SNY look like "Masterpiece Theater".
I watched the A's - Sox while re-reading "Moneyball". I got the sickening thought that Alderson, LaRussa et al pursuing on base percents and power and fueling the steroid problem by turning their heads. - be it from Canseco/McGwire in the late 80's/early 90's or Giambi/Giambi/Tejeda in the late 90's/early 00's.
Did they know and trade players not just because they couldn't afford them, but that the steroids pumped up their power numbers and they could unload them for more prospects - and the departed players acted like Johnny Appleseed for illegal PED's with their new teams?
The Yankees more or less embarrassed themselves last night. Once again, as they have done many times this year, they couldn't hit a mediocre pitcher. He came into the game with a whopping four Ks in over twenty innings -- which is a terrible strikeout rate -- and of course he Ks the first batter and then four more. This is the type of pitcher they should dominate, and have in the past, but this year the offense just isn't the same.
This was the second night in a row a reliever had to throw 40+ pitches, which shows the effect (and soon the aftereffect) of having bad starting pitching. The bullpen is about to get stretched thin.
And A-Rod -- c'mon. Richie Sexson somehow hits a grand slam -- the most improbable thing imaginable -- and you can't hit Eddie Guardado's 85-mph fastballs? A-Rod's having a great year statistically, but he seems to have the same holes in his swing this year that he did in 2006.
baileywalk, I agree with you on the Yanks offense. The Yanks offense has been hot or cold all year. A-Rod is hard to figure out. When he is up to the plate with RISP, he is in a no-win situation. If he gets a clutch hit, people will say they expect it. But when he doesn't, everybody will hammer him big time.Yankees fans also are in a no-win situation when A-Rod is at the plate with RISP. They wanted A-Rod to get a clutch hit, but at the same time they have no confidence that he will. Don't forget that the Yanks don't have a off day until a week from Thursday, August 14. So Girardi is trying to get his relievers out of the pen to pitch more than they should when the starters get knock out.
When you look at all the 2006 Marlins starters who stink now or got hurt last season and just getting back now, and all the starting pitching on the Yankees this season who got hurt, you have to begin to wonder what role Girardi and his ways plays into everything. I don't see him as a Dusty Baker who allows his pitchers to throw 140 pitches a game with regularity, but maybe the spring training drill sergeant technique isn't the way to go?
Ken--Heilman's future is definitely not as a Met, but what teams do you see actually wanting him? It's not like he's done anything in his career so far and if anything he's gotten worse, not better. I'm not even sure a team like Washington would give the Mets anything for him.
Jim,
Back to a previous thread about rating Girardi this year.
This road trip is gonna be a huge barometer.
And things have certainly gotten off on the wrong foot.
The Yankess are simply not playing good baseball right now.
And this is the wrong time of the year to be catching that virus.
Could be a REALLY long trip unless Girardi figures out a way to get the leaders (A-Rod, Jeter) to start leading.
And I am getting more than a little concerned about "the chemistry" within the batteries. (without naming names, which will only give credence to Davidoff's opposition to the Farnsworth trade, albeit for a different reason).
Ken, after seeing the Mets near-meltdown last night, I re-read Jim Caple's fantastic article on ESPN.com talking about how the role of a closer is way, way overrated. It's not a "closer-by-committee." It's called using your bullpen wisely! Heilman couldn't get it done (though he wasn't backed by particularly stellar defense), so Jerry Manuel used both Smith and Schoeneweis to get the job done. Good move: it got the Mets the W and that's all that matters at the end of the day. You can read Caple's article here, it's a great read:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/080805
I-505: I agree about the pitcher-catcher chemsitry. Lay people might laugh at this but it does matter to pitchers. It has to be hard changes catchers in the middle of the season. Although Posada didn't play much at C this season, these guys have now thrown to multiple catchers. It compounds the team's other problems.
A-Rod is capable of carrying this team if he gets hot. But, he isn't a leader and probably never will be. I don't know if it's just not in him or if he just doesn't want to be bothered with the role.
We have spoken about Cano's offensive problems, but he's less than 20 points beneath Jeter and closing fast. Jeter is either having an off-year or is heading into real decline brought on by age.
Hi Bob, I sure am glad you are back in the fold. I almost left over the Bowie-censorship thing. Didn't know if it "got" to you, too. I'm glad Ken reached out about it before I went to Rockport.
Sandy, it is way overstating it to assert that Heilman "hasn't done anything in his career so far." He was an above-average relief pitcher from 2005 through 2007. There are plenty of teams who would be interested in a live arm such as his.
Thanks for the Caple link, Doug. Good story.
Jim:
I'll just move on and say that the person in charge who stood by and allowed one league to use a DH and the other to abstain from the practice must have made his only error that day. (By the way, if MLB teams want to save money, they can eliminate the DH and probably save $ 3 to $ 10 million per year as they substitute a near minimum salary back of the bullpen pitcher for a veteran power hitter on the roster. We have enough offense in MLB right now, perhaps the current and well respected leader of baseball can end the DH issue by use of his well known leadership skills?)
As to throwing to multiple catchers, if the P and C have done their homework pre-game on how they want to approach a batter, there should be no or little problem. The catcher's job is to take the thinking process away from the pitcher (and in many cases, the manager's call pitches anyway) and just let them throw the ball.
Bob, maybe Senator Mitchell can be brought in to study the DH/No-DH issue. He could take a few months, fly around the country interviewing former and current players and executives, have a public listening session with fans and then issue a report. He should be able to get it by the MLBPA. After all, he did bring peace to Northern Ireland. He probably only needs one more high profile endeavor to insure his place in the HOF. His plaque could be hung not far from B--ie K. (Sorry Ken. A Tums might help.)
Wow...Joba going down will kill whatever season he misses. They cant replace him.
As for the Muts...can you imagine where they would be without my boy Fernando Tatis?? The next time someone tells you chemestry doesn't matter, point to him. If the Mets make the playoffs, he could arguably get some 9th/10th place MVP votes. His stats wont warrant it. But the amount of games the Mets won because of him do.
Hey Ken.
Maybe Maine, Wagner & Chamberlain should alter their mechanics and throw underhand.
~H
If Joba is done for 2008, I think the Yankees really need to sign Freddy Garcia if the guy can pitch on the MLB level. Let's work on getting through this season instead of expecting Kennedy, Hughes or even Wang to return and perform some type of magic. It looks like Ponson is going nowhere. A rotation of Pettitte, Mussina, Ponson, Giese and Garcia/Kennedy isn't exactly Cuellar, McNally, Dobson and Palmer, but it will have to do.
Bob: Could all of the injuries to Yankee pitchers and position players this year be attributed to some training flaw or are they all bad luck/coincidence?
Jim:
With Ken's permission I will get you a bromo or beverage and we will solve the problems of baseball....away from Ken's site.
As for injuries, I cannot say what it is...but the amount of Yankee injuries is the same as it was under non-taskmaster Joe.
Wagner has been throwing hard for years with an undersized body. The stress and strain he puts on his arm is equivalent to what Guidry did. Chamberlain seems to be in love with throwing his breaking ball as hard as possible and frequently. I watch his shoulder on the follow-through and worry. Maine went from nothing to almost 200 innings last year, was on a pace for 200 this year and may have reached his physical limit.
Watch a slow motion of a pitcher's arm pre-delivery and you will see it is not a natural motion. Injuries should be more common than they are, and player like Nolan Ryan were freaks of nature to survive that long.
Bob, I have watched and wondered about Joba and the breaking pitch, but don't have the expertise to really understand it. On Maine, I thought the same thing even before he got hurt.
Agree on the unnatural motion involved in throwing a ball> I remember reading/listening to a presentation years ago about the thousand of capillaries busted when pitching. Perhaps this is why an effective conditioning regimen and post-game icing, etc., is so important. But, again, I don't really know what I am even talking about. I haven't studied it enough and obviously never experienced it.
Yeh, one day we will have to get together and have Ken there and go about solving all of baseball's problems in one fell swoop.
As for Los Mets, a win is a win. The New York Yankee$ are toast if Joba is done. It's about the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim from this point forward.
Any article about sports not mentioning the retired/unretired/retired/not sure about unretiring Brett Favre is okay by me. Well done, KD.
Maybe an offseason get-together is in order. We can get beers, "hustle" up to the bar in honor of Richie G., wear Mike & the Mad Dog T-shirts in honor of Dennis and put together a Bowie Kuhn pinata. ;)
Ken I was thinking the same thing. We need an off-season get together. Maybe even a October playoff gettogether.
And I appreciate the hustle for the beers, but I'm on a strict diet right now. Down to 189 from 222...so the beers will have to wait!!
Joshua Shulman of Valley Stream New York USA, I was just wondering what your zip code is. Can you please be more specific next time?
And I do agree with you Joshua, Brett Favre should not be allowed to change his mind.
Its not like he beat his wife, did steroids, or sexually abused someone. For if he did that...no one would have a problem with him coming back to the Packers.
Forget Bowie; Should Bill Veeck be in the HOF?
I have been reading a great deal about him and especially the Eddie Gaedel episode. I haven't been able to pin this down definitively and might have to call his son in MN.
One of two things happened: Veeck was concerned that Gaedel would actually swing at a pitch so he told him, 1) that he had hired a man armed with a high powered rifle who was sitting high in the stands with orders to shoot Gaedel if he dared to swing at a pitch or 2) that Veeck himself had the rifle and would shoot him if Gaedel swung.
If that had happened today or during Bowie's time, Veeck would have been suspended and maybe even arrested. But, instead he is in the Hall of Fame. Ken Burns covered this in Baseball on PBS in and his compansion book. I'm sitting in a Panera Bread and don't have access to my book right now, but the above is a pretty accurate description. I believe Burns repeated the story about the marksman in the stands.
After the commissioner voided Gaedel's contract Veeck held some kind of press conference and said he was outraged and was going to ask for a ruling about Phil Rizzuto to determine if he was just short or if he was a tall midget, thus deserving of having his contract voided. Rizzuto had won the MVP award the season before.
The whole Gaedel thing took place in St. Louis on 8.17.51. Incidentally, Gaedel was only 36 when he died. The only person associated with baseball to attend his funeral was the guy who pitched to him, Bob Cain, who died 11 years ago.
Ken, can I talk about Veeck/Gaedel? Am I driving you crazy yet?
For those of you who want the Yankees to replace Joba with Freddy Garcia, if Joba is done for the year--remember this: Freddy needs to go pitch some rehabilitation games in the minors first and probably wouldn't be ready for the majors until 3 or more weeks after he is signed. Pavano is ahead of him in that respect and much as it disgusts me to say it, since they are already paying the guy it might as well be him and Kennedy. They need starters now not the first week of September.
No, not yet, Jim. LOL. I'm giving you plenty of rope.
Sandy, rest assured, Pavano will come up with some sort of boo-boo to ensure that he'll never pitch again in Yankees pinstripes.
Ken, the Midweek Insider was great. I especially enjoyed Part B on honoring these guys before they are no longer with us. Good stuff.
Is the rope to hang myself with so you don't have to do it?
When it comes to Pavano I am reminded of an old trick of the USSR. Dissidents were sent to psychiatric hospitals. After all, if you couldn't see that the Soviet Union was paradise, then you must have been crazy. Pavano seems to not want to play on the MLB level (if anywhere). So, if he says he now is ready to play, there must be something wrong with him because it flies in the face of what passes as "normal" for him. The Yankees will then have to put him on the DL immediately.
I'm with you, Ken. I seriously doubt if he ever is allowed on the field at Yankee Stadium again.
Richie H G - it is 11581, why do you ask? Are you obsessed with your weight? Let me guess - you were up, you were down, you were up, you were down. If you were on the Packers, they would make you stick to either fat or skinny so they could just move on already and not have to deal with the media circus you caused.
Sandy/Ken - yeah, Freddy G and/or Pavano and/or Kennedy is not the answer. It doesn't matter though...as long as Mussina is on the team, the Yankee$ will not win it all. The jinx is very much real.
Why rush Kennedy? That already got them in trouble. If he comes up again and bombs out he might be permanent toast and he will also have much less trade value.
Garcia costs nothing but money. Are there no games in Sept? So what if he can only pitch then. Those gams count, too.
Pavano? They should have probably released him. If I was Cashman I wouldn't want that guy in a uniform. He has made the Yankees look like fools. He also isn't looking particularly strong in the minor leagues.
Sandy is right, if Joba is done for the year, the Yanks would need to get pitchers to start now. By the time Garcia pitches for the Yanks, the Yanks might be out of it. I can definitely see Hughes, Kennedy or Pavano come up and pitch. Heck, Washburn is more ready to pitch now than Garcia.
Ken, since Livan Hernandez was designated for assignment, and if the Rockies who claim him off waviers can't make a deal with the Twins, shouldn't Hernandez be a free agent?
If the Rockies can't make a deal with the Twins, Dennis, then the Twins would have to take him back and put him on their roster. That's not happening.
Dennis, Hughes isn't ready. He won't be ready for weeks. What are you talking about? The guy is throwing three innings and working up his arm strength. Garcia might be ready before Hughes. What do you want? Hughes to blow out his arm? Pavano has been a total loser, why would you want him around the team when the team hates his guts. Ken said he is the most reviled player on his own team that he has ever seen. Kennedy is still not as sharp as he was late last year. If he comes up and is a disaster, what do the Yankees do with him then? Mentally he will be shot. Trade wise his value will drop even further. You are in panic mode, so fearful they won't make the playoffs. So what? Washburn? He's not worth the money or worth the trouble having, clogging up next year's rotation.
Dennis, the Hall of Fame just e-mailed me its weekly online newsletter. The feature is a story about Satchel Paige being 46 when on Aug. 6, 1952 he pitched a shutout for the St. Louis Browns. David Wells is only 45. Do you want the Yankees to sign him?
Chamberlain is going on the DL. Britton is being recalled from AAA. Kennedy is starting on Saturday for the Yankees.
Bob Tufts....
"As to throwing to multiple catchers, if the P and C have done their homework pre-game on how they want to approach a batter, there should be no or little problem."
I agree Bob Tufts.....but I am glad you qualified your statement with "if".
After watching Pettite deliver an extensive monologue to Pudge (staring into space) in the dugout in the bottom of the 2nd of Thursday's Angel game, I can safely assume that Andy was giving Pudge some housing, dining and other relocation advice.
Has anyone else noticed an increase in walks per 9 innings lately? oh, in the last week or so?
I am still giving Pudge a honeymoon.
But I AM beginning to wonder.
Just my opinion....I'll be watching from one time zone away tonight.
Jim, if Joba is out for the rest of the season, the Yanks are going to need pitchers to start games right now as Sandy said. And Yes, I would sign David Wells to pitch but the Yanks won't.
Speaking of retire/unretire/retire/unretire....how about Clemens?
Hah...you just know Waldman would cream (again) over that one.
Dennis, you are getting your wish. I wrote earlier that Kennedy is starting on Sat. I hope he pitches a perfect game but If he bombs, I will be interested to read your analysis.
Jim, I'm only saying that the Yanks need starters to pitch right now. I would like to see Kennedy at least compete in the game, which he didn't do earlier this year.
Chris Young just single to break up the perfect game bid by Jeff Karstens.
Dennis less than a week ago a member of the Yankees "family" said Kennedy's breaking pitch wasn't there yet and it was sharper less Sept than right now. Thus, he didn't did called to pitch, Giese did. Now that they need someone - anyone, he is getting the call. Did he get the breaking pitch down pat in a couple of days? No. He stunk in his first go around. Is he ready now? Maybe. But, if he bombs out and ends up worse off than before, what are you going to say? The Yankees most likely aren't going anywhere. It's a miracle they are where they are now. You want this guy to pitch now, but you might be messing him up for good and reducing the value he can fetch should the Yankees trade him in the off-season. That's my point. So, again I will say it: I like Kennedy and think he has real potential and I want him to pitch a 9 inning shutout on Saturday, but if he bombs out again, what are you going to say about wanting him up here now?
To clarify--I really don't want Pavano, he disgusts me. However, Garcia is useless to the Yankees and for what they need, a waste of money. I don't want to trade for Washburn because you are throwing away a promising player now (and I'm about to wave the white flag on this season) for probably nothing. Give Giese another shot, give the season 2 more weeks and if we have to keep watching the Rays score 6 runs in the bottom of the ninth without making an out and hitting 2 homers, it won't matter anyway. That's their 9th "walk off" win of the season. However their next 10 or 11 games are on the road and they are 5 under .500 on the road. if the Yankees aren't any closer than 5 out in 2 weeks let the waving begin.
OTOH I would love to have Carl Pavano's life. He's is rich beyond most needs, he's somewhat good looking, he had Alyssa Milano (well a lot of players too), he lives in paradise, life for him is good.
505: Bottom of the second inning on 31st July - Ivan led off with a called strikeout. I assume he was ticked and not exactly in the mood to talk.
Pettitte went out in the 3rd and gave up six hits (2 Hr's) and six runs. I think Andy has to take the responsibility for that disaster.