Let's catch up with the biggest names
If you're disappointed by the lack of offseason action so far, hang in there. It could be one more slow week before things pick up.
Then again, as I wrote today, the always aggressive Angels could push some transactions into happening this week.
So as we kick off this holiday-shortened week, let's get a feel for where the big names stand. We'll put these in the order that I feel like ordering them:
1. CC Sabathia. I can't recall a case quite like this one, when everyone in the free world knows that the guy would rather NOT pitch for the team that has dramatically outbid all other suitors. Yes, Mike Mussina never thought he'd pitch for the Yankees, either, but Mussina at least was aiming to play in the Yankees' time zone. He thought he'd wind up in Cleveland.
Well, now that I think about it some more, maybe Carlos Beltran signing with the Mets represents a decent comparison...
Forget about Hal Steinbrenner's phony deadline. The indications are that Sabathia himself doesn't want to drag this out too long. He has to be disappointed that none of the West Coast teams have stepped up.
The hunch here is that, next week, Sabathia tells the Yankees all right - for just a little more money than the current offer. I think it could even happen this week, as CC enjoys Thanksgiving in Northern California.
2. Mark Teixeira. There is precedent for a Scott Boras client signing early in the free-agent process. Ten years ago, Bernie Williams re-signed with the Yankees on Thanksgiving Eve. That happened because Bernie took charge of his destiny, insisting on a sit-down meeting with the Yankees brass where he passionately told George Steinbrenner how much he wanted to remain with the organization.
(Of course, the Yankees ultimately re-signed Bernie only because Albert Belle backed out of a verbal agreement and signed with Baltimore instead. Luck, my friends, luck - a huge role in everything in life.)
Would Teixeira be as forceful in getting a deal done with the Angels, with whom he was clearly happy? The one indication to the positive is that, at the GMs' meetings earlier this month, Boras did speak well of Teixeira's experience with the Angels. Usually, Boras won't concede even that much.
3. AJ Burnett. Burnett's agent Darek Braunecker told me on Friday night that his client will have a five-year offer to sign, if that's what he wants. But it ain't coming from the Blue Jays, as Toronto GM J.P. Ricciardi told me, and I don't think the Yankees will go there, not as long as they sign Sabathia. I don't see the Red Sox committing that, either.
The Orioles? More likely, if president Andy MacPhail yields to his owner Peter Angelos. Burnett does make his offseason home in Maryland.
In any case, I still contend that Burnett's free agency fascinates me the most. I think many of the Yankees players would be more excited about adding Burnett than adding Sabathia. That's how good Burnett can be when he's on his game.
BTW, I get the sense that many Yankees players are on board with prioritizing pitching over the offense. There's hope that Robinson Cano will be more like his 2006 and 2007 self _ Cano apparently has told teammates he's going to be in great shape when spring training opens _ and there's something to be said for having three players (Johnny Damon, Hideki Matsui and Xavier Nady) in their walk years. Baseball Prospects conducted a study a few years ago that showed players do tend to perform better when they're playing for a new contract.
4. Derek Lowe. This one figures to take forever, because Lowe is a Boras guy and because it behooves Lowe, anyway, to wait until Sabathia and Burnett decide. He wants to go back to the East Coast; he's said as much publicly. If you're a Mets fan, hope that the Yankees get Sabathia and Burnett so that they'll lose interest in Lowe.
5. Manny Ramirez. One Yankees official told me, earlier this offseason, that they were more likely to get Manny than Teixeira. That looks prescient now. If Manny's price drops enough - I don't know, let's say the two years and $45 million that the Dodgers offered him - the Yankees would have to take him, wouldn't they?
But I still think the Dodgers, who have internally decided that they can't afford Sabathia, will find a way to bring back Manny. They need to build on what they accomplished in 2008, and Manny was a gargantuan part of that, obviously. Joe Torre will be earning that big paycheck with Manny around.
6. Andy Pettitte. If he's truly just sitting back at home, at peace with what the Yankees are doing, then Pettitte has changed. Remember, he left the Yankees the first time because he felt like they didn't show him enough love. He left the Astros two years ago because he felt like they didn't show him enough love. When I write "love," I mean "love and money," but not only "money." Pettitte likes to be appreciated for his work ethic.
I can understand why the Yankees want Pettitte to take a pay cut. At the same time, let's not undervalue too much what Pettitte did in 2008. He struck out more batters (158) in fewer innings (204) than he pitched in 2007 (141 strikeouts, 215 1/3 innings). His groundball percentage (49.8 percent) in '08 was higher than it was in '07 (47.8 percent). With defensive upgrades at first base (Nick Swisher over Jason Giambi) at second (motivated Cano over satisfied Cano), he could pitch the same and get better results.
7. Rafael Furcal. Ken Rosenthal reports that the Giants and A's are most involved with the shortstop, who put up phenomenal numbers in an injury-shortened 2008 with the Dodgers. If the Braves wind up trading their shortstop Yunel Escobar for Jake Peavy, then Atlanta could get involved here, too.
8. Jake Peavy. Speaking of which - sorry, baileywalk. I still don't see Peavy joining the Yankees. It makes all the sense in the world for the Braves and Padres to finish this deal. The Braves can't afford to duel the Yankees for Burnett, and they don't have the Jays' homefield advantage there. The Dodgers could become more involved due to Chad Billingsley's injury, although you'd think the Padres would exact a higher price from the Dodgers since they play in the same division.
9. Orlando Hudson. His representatives have to be disappointed that, at this point, the Yankees and Mets aren't serious suitors. Cano is very likely staying, and Luis Castillo's contrition (scroll down three items) makes his return more palatable. Jon Heyman reported the Indians as a suitor.
10. Raul Ibanez. Mets fans, I know you're not very excited about this one, but the Mets themselves are. They see a needed energy boost and some much-needed production after the cleanup slot. That said, the competition for Ibanez's services looks to be fierce, with the Phillies, Dodgers and Royals among the most interested suitors.
Have a great day.
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Comments (51)
A "motivated" Cano and Castillo will save the day?
I feel like going all RG/Stearns on this comment. "Yes I got a big contract and showed up woefully unprepared to earn it. But trust me, I'm ready to go this year after helping sink the playoff chances of my team in 2008." The time to take responsibility was when the contract was signed - to those who earn much money, much is expected. Don't apologize when you are "caught" having a bad year partly of your own making.
They are both fortunate that there is a dearth of 2B talent on the free agent market....and that the Yanks and Mets have expensive pitching needs to address.
I remember the Yanks also look into signing Brain Jordan along with Albert Belle before they re-sign Bernie Williams. Thank god the Orioles took Belle and the Braves took Jordan.
Unless someone signs with another team in the next 3 days, nobody in the free agent market will sign a contract until after the Thanksgiving holiday weekend.
Bob, you know that line caught my attention too. If only Cano had a little Scheoenwiess in him. He may have sucked, but nobody can question whether he cared or not. With Cano/Castillio...they both admittedly didn't care enough to be in shape and give the effort they gave beofre their contract. With Castillo it absolutely cost the Mets a playoff spot, with Cano who knows?
Albert Belle. James K., whats your thoughts on him? What is his VORPS and other stuff, and how do they compare with the rest of the league?
No thanks to Ibanez geez can they give Murphy a chance for christs sakes? I mean that's the problem with Omar he rather sign guy in his late 30's than give a kid like Murph a chance. Castillo is a joke so because he apologized for dogging it all year and playing like crap and bringing a negative attitude to the clubhouse he's getting another chance? Geez. He isn't gonna do anything but continue to take third strike time after time show no range and scowl. Plus his deplorable effort and defense won't change. God forbid Manuel moves him out of the #2 hole he might call Tony B. and complain.
Graves9...if only he had an eighth of the charachter of your screen name, the Mets would have easily beat the Phillies.
And even if he is motivated (why should we believe him?) he still takes too many pitches. Pitchers routinely threw strikes right down the middle to him at the end of last season bc he just wouldn't swing. I know working a pitchers count is important, but so are swinging at fastballs right down the middle.
If someone in the front office has to take a hit if the Mets stumble out of the gate in 2009, unfortunately it will probably be Minaya. Bernazard has probably ingratiated himself too well with the Wilpon clan. In my mind neither man is worth their salary or has demonstrated any leadership in the past two seasons (after some good pickups) besides patting themselves on the back for throwing a wad of cash at Santana that he couldn't refuse.
You could knock the bat out of Castillo's hands with a fastball - if he swung it more often.
Bob, I dont think Minaya is going anywhere, he just signed a new contract. But I agree both dont deserve to be here. It takes a lot of skill to always offer the extra year and the 30 million extra that Minaya does. I could never have signed Beltran/Pedro/Santana.
I give him credit for Maine/Perez/Tatis (though c'mon that was luck). I wouldn't say he's a bust, but I dont see after two straight collapses that he should have been retained.
BTW, saw the new allegations against Michael Vick. He actually used family dogs (which means he probably stole them??) against his pit bulls and laughed. If an NFL team so much as interviews this guy...that team will be dead to me. Just as I wish Michael Vick was. Dead.
Sorry, I get a little emotional when you pick on those that cant defend themselves.
Omar is going nowhere. The Wilpons have the same love for him that Dolan has for Sather. Dolan ignored all the fire Sather chants for years and years. Sather's rep was saved by Lundqvist and Jagr dragging the Rangers out of the abyss and into the playoffs. Sather has made stupid moves lately(Redden and Rozsival getting long term deals is a great example) I just don't see Omar having the ability to turn it around. I had high hopes that Castillo and Heilman along with Castillo would be gone but it looks like Omar is gonna make minimal changes. Which tells me he's clueless. The bullpen killed em in '07 so the only changes he makes is bringing in Matt freaking Wise and hoping against hope that Sanchez(after being out a year and a half) was gonna just pitch like he did in '06. It is almost amazing that Omar is the same guy that made the Seo for Sanchez and Benson for Maine and (outside of the Santana trade) he has ignored holes in the team and brought in older injury prone players to try to plug holes. Don't get me started on the Castillo contract.
RG, Vick is going to play in the NFL again because he needs the money and because of the lack of good quarterbacks. Also if you are going to not let Vick play in the NFL, then Pacman Jones has to be kick out of the league for his antics.
Dennis...OK!!! I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. Jones and Vick should be out of the league. I also agree that he will play in the NFL again, I just think it sucks. But he may not be a QB, he may be a WR when he comes back. He was only a little better than average QB when he left the NFL.
Graves, I agree with you about Sather. The guy is clueless. He doesn't care about the Ranger fans, trading Leetch was a travesty. Hell I dont think he cares about the Rangers. Remember when he traded all his vets away to Canadian teams? It made me think he could have gotten more but was trying to help out Canada.
The guy is a bum...and anything that they do well has little to nothing to do with him and more to do with his scouts and coach. He is probably the laziest GM in the world.
At least you know Omar cares and tries hard. Even if I think he hasn't done well.
RG,
Albert Belle was just an incredible hitter, and at times a good fielder. I'd say he was slightly below avg. in the field.
If he had 3-4 more years of elite baseball he'd be a HOF'r, statistically. The writers hate him though as he's somewhat of a jerk I believe. This is why they gave Mo Vaughn the MVP in 1995 over Belle, when there was basically no intelligent reason to. Belle losing in '95 rates up there with Bartolo Colon winning the Cy in 2005, Pudge winning MVP in '99, Clemens winning the Cy in 2001 and Glavine winning the Cy in '98 as worst votes in recent memory. They're slowly coming around though, evidenced by this year's excellent slate of award winners.
Omar isn't a very good judge of talent, plus I am not sure the Mets have a good scouting staff to help him out. It's not like the Mets have a deep minor league system out there, even though a lot of it is now in Minnesota.
As far as Castillo, he used to be a good player and had character, so you need to take him at his word he is embarrassed by his performance. There's not much of a choice, nobody wants him, you can release him and pay him anyway, or you can send him to Buffalo and pay him anyway-so you might as well take the chance. It's not like there are much better options for the Mets out there--David Eckstein, I don't think so. Brian Roberts meh. Murphy should stay in the outfield.
Who do you know internally that told you the Dodgers can't afford Sabathia? They can't afford him, but they can afford Manny? Why, because of more years to CC? With all the young talent they have now and more in the pipeline, the years are not the problem. I see no reason the Dodgers can not afford Sabathia, nor have heard anything of the sort from out here on the west coast.
Doesn't sound credible to me.
I just heard on WFAN that the San Francisco Giants have sign Edgar Renteria to a 2 year contract. There was talk that the Giants were interested in Rafael Furcal.
The Mets would have to need Castillo permission to be sent down to the minors. Daniel Murphy can hit, but he's not a good fielder no matter where you play him.
Meanwhile a Barry Bonds note - more government absurdity.....
from one of the few writers actually covering the facts on the ground and in court..
"Judge Could Unseal All BALCO Evidence"
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ar08HyHZd8f8flOyzYX25lARvLYF?slug=li-bondsupdate112308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
"Star athletes promised immunity and secrecy from the federal government in return for their grand jury testimony may now be forced to endure prime time reruns of evidence of their alleged use of performance-enhancing drugs.....even stranger is that these prosecutors won a secret 2007 order before Judge Illston to force Victor Conte of BALCO to return his copy of the same grand jury material"
"The most serious BALCO conviction was for breaking this very same federal protective order. Troy Ellerman....began serving a 30-month jail term in April 2007 for violating the order when he let San Francisco Chronicle reporters read and copy some of the sealed transcripts."
"Nor is it clear the government has honored the strict federal rules on grand jury secrecy. On Sept. 28, 2007, Sports Illustrated reported that IRS agent Jeff Novitzky asserted at a 2006 anti-doping conference in Colorado Springs, Colo., that the boxer “Sugar” Shane Mosley took the drug EPO before one of his fights."
Murphy is a hard worker imo he has a good enough work ethic to beome an average to an above average defensive player. I think his best position will end up being 1b. I know the Mets won't sell high on Delgado but boy do I wish they would. Imo he surely tanked it for Steamboat Willie. I think getting him out of the clubhouse will allow a guy like Wright to take hold of the leadership mantle(much like Utley and Rollins did when Abreu was traded away) Sadly that won't happen.
James, if Albert Belle isn't a HOF based on his stats, I dont know who is. This guy was the most dominant hitter of his era. An era which included Griffey, A-Rod, Frank Thomas, Bagwell, Manny, Bonds, McGwire, Sosa. Outside of pure bias, he should have been first ballot. You couldn't get more dominant than him. Had he smiled and was cheery, he'd be in. Had he stayed around just to accumulate stats while hurting his team, he'd be in. There never has been a steroid allegation against him, as far as I know. And even if there was, the writers didn't punish players for that till McGwire was eligible.
I dont like him, I dont respect him, but he was the greatest hitter of our time...with the possible exception of Bonds on steroids.
What have you seen in Wright that makes you think he can be a leader? How about anybody being a leader on that team? They don't have it. They have factions.
The only way you find out if he's a leader is to get rid of Delgado(who is the leader of the who gives a crap brigade) Who knows maybe Wright steps up or someone else. Delgado behaved himself with Manuel at the helm but what if Jerry upsets Delgado by moving him down the order or by mentioning Delgado's need to get his uniform dirty?
All this talk of "leadership" is making me nauscious. If the Mets made the playoffs we'd all be praising Wright and Delgado's "leadership". I get a kick out of fans hypothesizing about clubhouse interactions and how it may or may not effect on field play.
Cold hard facts:
Mets 2008 offense: scored 799 runs
Phils 2008 offense: scored 799 runs
Mets 2008 rotation: 3.98 ERA
Phils 2008 rotation: 4.23 ERA (in slightly less innings)
Mets 2008 bullpen: 4.25 ERA
Phils 2008 bullpen: 3.19 ERA
The Phils had a great bullpen and won the World Series. Everyone praises Jimmy Rollins's "leadership" and how "clutch" and "gritty" the Phillies are. The Mets had a garbage bullpen and they're "unclutch" and "choke artists" and "no leadership." I love it.
Albert Belle - his 162 game average year..
12 seasons..
616 AB
103 R
182 Hits
41 2B
40 HR
130 RBI
.295/.369/.564 OPS+ 143
----------------
Kirby Puckett...his 162 game average year...
12 seasons
658 AB
97 R
209 H
38 2B
19 HR
99 RBI
.318/.360/.467 OPS+ 124
I guess its because Kirny was cute and cuddly - except when he beat the crap out of his wife. People felt sorry for him due to his eye injury, while most people ushered Belle off the stage as a malcontent. Belle was genuine, liked by teammates and cared about winning - Puckett was a media creation like a Care Bear, who got reporter's votes because they acted like they were on a date or the Obama '08 campaign..
Amen, James K.
Richie, I'm flashing back to a Belle argument we had last year...He's a good test of your "dominance" belief. Yes, he dominated for about nine years. But that was all he had: Those nine years. His career totals don't get it done for me.
Hunteralan, Manny is probably going to get half of what Sabathia gets this winter. Go ahead and doubt me. We'll see how it turns out.
While teams need leaders, I couldn't agree with James K any more. It doesn't matter how many times DW goes to the mound or challenges Heilman, Schoenweiss. Sanchez, et al to dig deep. They still couldn't get big outs in countless games the Mets led. The Mets scored runs, had very good starting pitching but simply couldn't close out games. Yeah, that's Wright's fault for not leading. Oy vey.
I think the Mets land Hudson. It seems he's up for giving us a discount, and knows we are a contender for the life of his contract.
Ken - as to my point, then why is Kirby Puckett in the HOF? A HR off Leibrandt and a catch in the series trumps the obviously superior stats of Belle?
The Mets lack of "leadership" was the fatc that part of the team seemed to go "Caine Mutiny" on Randolph and underperformed or laid down for the first two months.
Mos tof the leadership problem is therefore with Randolph's lack of ability to change a team, but which player stepped up BEFORE Willie was fired and tried to turn the tide? A game lost in May is equal to one in September, and the Mets were 13-15 in May and 13-15 in June.
Ken, I'm not saying Belle will ever get in. He wont. I'm just saying he absolutely should. There is no test to my theory. the writers respect compilers more than greatness. That's obvious by Sutton/Sandberg over Belle/Rice.
Belle had 9 years of absolute dominance, Mussina had maybe 1??? Its just Mussina is an All-time Compiler. I'd rather have 9 years of dominance than 15 years of very goodness. Dominance wins championships. Belle didn't, but dominance in gneral does.
In the NBA, assists are a major category. Mark Jackson has the 2nd most assists of all time. Ron Francis has more points than Mario Lemieux. I would take a look at 162 game avg. before I look at career totals. That to me tells me how much you helped your team.
Whynot James Ken...I do agree that leadership *can* be overrated, in the Mets case its CLEARLY not. Castillo admitted to not trying his hardest and many many many suspect Delgado didn't try his hardest at the beginning. Had they had a leader that got in their faces, maybe Delgado tries harder earlier in the season. And if they try their hardest the whole season, they pick up two games easy. The difference between winning and losing is very small. And intangibles matter when you're talking about one game. If anything, the Mets closeness and last week failure proves our point, not detracts from it.
Did anyone catch the NYT article by Dan Rosenheck on "Why Mussina Belongs in the Hall of Fame" that was published yesterday? He makes a good case.
Here's the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/24/sports/baseball/24score.html?_r=1&ref=sports
Ken, I know what you have written and what logic dictates, but for some reason I won't be shocked if I open the morning paper and read that Peavy is coming to the Yankees. It's just a gut feeling.
Ralph Kiner....10 seasons with atrocious clubs....only one winning record...369 HR's, 162 game average season 41 HR, 112 RBI, .274/.368/,548 OPS + 149
Tony Perez? Longevity..average 162 game production
22HR's, 96 RBI's, ..279/.341/.463 OPS + 123
Why are they in ? They were liked.
Also, Belle's name has never been accurately associated with steroids - give him extra points for being clean in a dirty age.
Jack...Rosenheck wrote this, Among more statistically savvy fans, the standard benchmark for assessing a pitcher is the ratio of his earned run average to that of a typical scrap heap fifth starter — think Nelson Figueroa, Mets fans — which tends to be about 20 percent higher than the league average."
Sorry, I'm not basing my fake HOF vote on Mussina vs. Nelson Figueroa!! MY fake HOF vote compares Mussina to Clemens, Maddux, Santana etc.
Bob T., while I wasn't voting yet when Kirby got in, I agree that his popularity played a role. But also keep in mind - Kirby played a middle-of-the-diamond position. Belle was a corner OF.
Belle was respected by his teammates? He didn't talk to anybody! He used to drive his Indians teammates nuts because he liked to blast the air conditioner in the clubhouse.
Richie, I see what you're saying on dominance vs. compiling. But in that case, how many years does a player have to "dominate"? I don't think nine great years and absolutely nothing else suffices.
Re: the Mets' "chemistry," did Pelfrey and Perez lay down for Randolph and then wake up for Manuel? Those two guys' turnarounds were just as important as Delgado's.
Ken, the NY Governor was charged with appointing Kennedy's successor to the U.S. Senate, not the NY Senate.
http://www.torontobaseballguys.com/20060117chris.html
He always wanted to be the best. His intensity at the plate was almost unparalleled. Even to see him at the end, trying to battle the injury, showed how much heart and commitment he has. He just doesn't give up. That's a quality you admire.
- Cal Ripken, USA Today, March 14, 2001
People are shocked when I say Albert is a nice guy. But it's the truth....The only problem Albert has had is he's too competitive. When he gets involved in a game, a competitiveness comes over him that's almost dangerous.
- Mark Guthrie, Minneapolis-St.Paul Tribune, October 13, 1995
He's really a sweet guy. He's like a 12-year-old. But when he's on the field and 0 for 3, I don't recommend that you talk to him. Sometimes he throws the cooler around. Sometimes he breaks phones in the clubhouse. There are cookies all over the place. This guys is so unbelievable, he can go 3 for 3, go into his last at-bat and pop out, and he's still throwing cookies around.
- Omar Vizquel, Associated Press, October 23, 1995
Albert has a very intense personality and that can be a double-edged sword. It contributes to his success, because he's so driven, but it's not something you can just turn on or off. No matter what, he is going to reach his potential as a player and he is never going to have to wonder if he could have been better, because he's done all he can. It's wound up affecting other parts of his life, but it's made him a Hall of Fame-caliber player.
- Paul DePodesta, San Francisco Chronicle, August 4, 1999
I really don't get involved in perceptions. We're all different, and that's what makes it interesting. Being judged on the things beyond what you do as a baseball player-sometimes I don't think that’s necessarily right. Maybe you don't have the full story. When I come out here, I look at Albert as a teammate, I look at him as a baseball player. I look at how he comes to bat and how he approaches his job. He's someone you really appreciate when he's on your team. He's a 50-homer guy, a 140-rbi guy. He wants to play everyday. Who wouldn't want that? I have a lot of respect for him. Playing against him and watching how he goes about his job. I'm happy I'm his teammate.
- Cal Ripken Jr., Sports Illustrated, March 8, 1999
I don't care what people said about his attitude and about what he did off the field. . .A lot of that had to do with the way he prepared for the game. He was very intense about getting ready to play. But he was an outstanding player. That's what I care about.
- Marquis Grissom, USA Today., March 14, 2001
Some people claim he's not great in the clubhouse and that he's selfish. . .To me, that's not correct. He was a hard-nosed player, and in many ways he was a real leader. A lot of people didn't see the good side of Albert.
- Chuck McElroy, USA Today, March 14, 2001
I was quite taken aback when I spent some time with him, how articulate and candid he was about everything. He looked me right in the eye and said, 'I'll be the first one here and the last one to leave. I study film, I take my own notes and I play every day.'
- Ray Miller, March 8, 1999
If a guy's playing a lot of games, like Albert, he sometimes runs out of gas. You're just worn down, so it doesn't look like your hustling. But Albert hustles, trust me.
- Jerry Manuel, Sports Illustrated, June 21, 1999
He's been basically what we expected. . .He's been better defensively than I thought he would be. He has a good arm. There's much too much made of his defensive shortcomings.
- Frank Wren (Orioles GM), Washington Post, August 31, 1999
Just look at his numbers, that's all you have to do. He goes out and plays hard. He's really different from how he's portrayed; you guys don't give him a chance. Everything is blown out of proportion.
- Ken Griffey Jr., San Francisco Chronicle, August 4, 1999
The media definitely portrays Albert like that. Everything's always a negative, because there's only one side. To me, that's unfair. It's like they expect the worse -- and he's the exact opposite. He's a really good teammate all-around, and he gives 100 percent.
- Jeff Reboulet, San Francisco Chronicle, August 4, 1999
He comes to play every day, and that's all that matters to me. He gets a bum rap in the press. He's done some things that weren't smart, but I think he's a great guy. You certainly can't argue with how he goes about his business on the field.
- Tony Phillips, San Francisco Chronicle, August 4, 1999
He gets criticized a lot for not talking to the media, but that's indicative of his indifference to how he's perceived and whether he's regarded as a superstar or popular. All he wants to do is play baseball. As a teammate, he's the best you can have.
- Brady Anderson, USA Today, February 25, 2000
Ken, I think it depends on how dominant. Belle was extremely dominant for 7 or so years and excellent another 3. 10 is my magic #. You got to give me at least 10 good years, but in Belle's case, he was so dominant that he probably could have went 9. No less than 9 though.
I dont think anyone ever accused Pelfrey and Perez of laying down for Randolph. But Castillo admitted not trying his hardest and you yourself once said you thought Delgado tanked it under Willie. And Wagner also said the reason for the turnaround is the Mets are playing hard. Which implies that they weren't under Randolph.
So that means if the Mets had a leader other than Manuel, maybe they win two April/May/June games.
And after falling short on the last day of the reg season twice, I think its pretty safe to say that not having a leader cant be discounted.
I laugh when James said IF the Mets woulda made the playoffs everyone would say what a great leader Delgado/Wright were. Well if they were great leaders they WOULD HAVE!
Re: Richie G and the NYT article on Mussina:
"Because these factors roughly cancel out, Mussina’s record holds up. His career value easily meets the Hall’s standard, and his peak was formidable: he should have won the 2001 A.L. Cy Young award, and he has a strong case for deserving the 1992 award as well. He was not as good as the best of his generation, like Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson, but that is hardly disqualifying. Hank Greenberg was the third-best first baseman in an eight-team league in the 1930s, and no one questions his induction."
The last sentence is a very, very good point. Mussina is a Hall of Famer, and I am extremely choosy about who should get in. He pitched in the tough AL and his winning percentage is one of the best ever for someone with his career win total. He's not in the top 5 right handers ever, but so what? He's still one of the best pitchers overall ever.
Ken, re: an above commenter: You meant Robinson was considered as Kennedy's replacement as one of NY's Senators in the US Senate. (I understand what you meant originally. I read the same article, BTW.)
Good Lord, Bob! You hit the mother lode! Look, I think you know that I'm not going to defend my BBWAA brethren. I have no doubt that many of them have negged Belle primarily because of his personality. But I really don't think his case is a slam-dunk. And I know that they couldn't stand him in Cleveland, his success there notwithstanding.
Richie, I'm not going to say that the Mets had a perfect clubhouse in 2008. But they had a horrible bullpen. Horrible. Their bullpen was an F. Maybe their clubhouse was a C. If you're going to talk about "two games they could've won with better hustle," I'm going to talk about 15 games they could've won with a better bullpen.
And look: On the last game of the season, in the eighth inning, the Mets had Beltran and Reyes on first and second and two outs. Delgado hit a bullet right at the leftfielder. Inning over. So if Delgado hits a bloop double, and the Mets tie the game there and they wind up winning, then they have great leadership? One game's difference determines whether they have great leadership or awful leadership?
Thanks for the RFK correction. I have fixed it. I just found out today that the Triboro Bridge is now the RFK bridge. Wacky.
This is the same Albert Belle who had a outburst with Hannah Storm of NBC during the 1995 World Series. Knock down Fernando Vina of the Brewers on the basepaths in '96. Was suspended in '94 for using a cork bat. Threw a baseball into the stands, where it struck a fan who had been taunting him about his alcohol rehab in 1990. And despite having a great year in '95, he finish 2nd in the AL MVP to Mo Vaughn, partly because he was dislike by the media. Belle attitude to the media is coming back to haunt him when it comes to the HOF voters.
Everybody seem to forget that the Mets in the last week in the season didn't hit in the clutch. Nobody got a clutch in a big spot when it matter the most especially David Wright.
Jack my point is I compare him to the year-to-year Ace (Cliff Lee/Holliday etc.) and he just doesn't add up. His best years were never as good as the best years of that particular year for me.
Writers, pundits, talk show hosts love to bring "chemistry" and "leadership" when a team fails, because it's more controversial than simply saying a team (or a team's bullpen) stunk it up. It provokes more discussion to say "David Wright is simply NOT clutch" than to say "well, his career numbers w/RISP (.300/.394/.501) are right in line with his career numbers in all situations (.309/.389/.533), so this probably isn't anything to worry about."
Do we really think chemistry and leadership are why Luis Ayala gave up a 3-run homer to Greg Norton? Why Wright couldn't hit a sac fly against the Cubs? Why Billy Wagner blew 3 saves in 1 week? Why Delgado's liner on Sept. 28 was caught (as Ken noted above)? Why Matt Wise gave up a walkoff homer to some no-name in game #2 of the season?
No Ken, had Delgado hit a bullet over the fence, I'd still say the Mets had horrible leadership. Its just that their talent would have compensated for it.
Their bullpen was brutal. But at least they cared. I never defended their performance, only their desire.
Castillo admitted he didn't care when he came to Spring Training out of shape. You yourself questioned whether Delgado gave his all under Willie. When you have two out of 8 players that aren't trying, you have to say you have a poor clubhouse with poor leaders. As Bob said, a game in April counts as much as a game in September. I wonder what you would have given the clubhouse during Willie's tenure? I'm sure it woudln't have been a C. It would have been an F. And those shortcomings proved very costly at the end of the year.
I know the bullpen cost the Mets the playoffs. But it really wasn't just the pen.
On the Saturday game of the week before the All-Star break, Jeanie Zelowski asked Billy Wagner what the difference was in their performance as of late? Wagner said.that they were playing hard. To say the Mets indifference at the beginning of the season didn't hurt them is being very generous. That too cost them the playoffs.
Dennis - the media should cover the event and not become part of it. Once they downgrade talent because of non-baseball criteria, they are no longer impartial sports jorunalists. And by the way, I don't think Belle or (too late) Puckett in the HOF.
Yes, Greenberg was the "third best" 1B in the Al at the time - the other two were Lou Gehrig and Jimmy Foxx. Hank had over 100 RBI at the all-star break one year and didn't make the team.
Hank effectively missed 4 seasons due to the war, and before that withstood the anti-Semitic taunts of fans and players while putting up great numbers.
Per b-ref:
His average season was 38HR's, 148RBI's, .313/.412/.605 and an OPS+ of 158. He was a 2 time MVP, led the league in HR's and RBI's 4 times, 4 world eries (2 rings), 5 all star games.
Mussina - 2 world eries (yanks - both losses), 5 all star games,
led AL once in shuotuts, innings, wins and BB/9, 2 times in games started, 7 gold gloves....
The comparison of Hank to Mike is not apt.....
James I dont think those examples had anything to do with leadership. However I think Castillo coming to camp out of shape and Delgado loafing through the first half and not trying his hardest had a lot to do with leadership.
Do you think Castillo and Delgado played their hardest the whole season?
If Delgado goes .280/.360/.540 with 35 HR and 115 RBI next year and doesn't embarrass himself in the field, he can give 10% effort for all I care.
It's pretty hard to make assumptions concerning players effort. Only if a player comes out and says "I dogged it this year" do I really put any credence into it. The Wagner comments don't mean anything to me - what is he supposed to say? Can you imagine Wagner saying like "well April and May represent small sample sizes, and players go on hot and cold streaks". Of course not. I like to think pro athletes give their best most of the time. Regardless, it's not a worthwhile discussion point, imo.
Bob, let me get this right: Mussina is 270-153 for his career for a .638 winning pct, a 123 ERA+ and a 1.192 WHIP and you don't think he belongs in the HOF? Why? Why should he be penalized because he happened to pitch during an era when some of the all-time greats worked?
In 3563 IP he walked only 785 batters and struck out 2,813. These are HOF numbers.
Bob, you're using World Series appearances and All-Star Game appearances as points of comparison?
Sure, Richie, I'd give the Mets an F for chemistry under Randolph. I'm agreeing that the chemistry has lots of room for improvement. But not anywhere as much room for improvement as the bullpen. "At least they cared" doesn't pay the bills. I understand why the chemistry issues upset you so much, but if we're talking about what killed the Mets most of all in 2008 (and in 2007, for that matter), it's the pitching, hands-down.
James Castillo admitted not coming to camp in shape. You are happy with the #'s Delgado put up, but imagine if he tried the whole season. And those words by Wagner is something that was extremely telling by a thoughtful athlete.
The standard soundbite would have been we were snakebitten, unlucky we gave it our all etc. He came RIGHT OUT and said that the difference between now and then is the effort.
Ken, I agree that the pen was the #1 reason the Mets lost. I will never dispute that.
But effort/leadership was #2. And both cost them dearly. And its great that they're addressing the pen, but I'd like them to address the leadership part as well. And I think you do that, by eating Castillo's contract. Its like Marbury. Either way you're going to pay his contract. You might as well cut your losses and not have his apathy around the clubhouse. Plus, its not like Castillo is immensely talented. Had the guy given Tatis like effort he still wouldn't be worth the money with his injuries and talent.
Didn't George M. Steinbrenner III once say that "winning is chemistry?" Is team chemistry really that important to pro athletes who are very good at what they do? I have never believed it is.
Chemistry can be positive or negative. If everyone hates the manager or owner, the simple rallying point can actually help a team. Within the team, if there is antipathy towards a player who has a clique of 5 or larger, the team blows up.
Ken - no, I just threw them in because the Hank Greenberg reference as 3rd best 1B in the AL is a bit misleading. I threw in the World Series because it appears that having a ring is used by voters to determine a player's HOF status (Belle v. Puckett for example). Like World Series appearances, winning percentage (38th all-time) is a function of the team around you, and I disagree with its use as a primary stat.
ERA+ - Mussina is tied fro 78th all time with Juan Marichal and Ron Perranoski. Mike Timlin and Bob Wickman are ahead of Mussina with a 125, Sal Maglie and Kevin Brown are at 127. Mussina is 117th in WHIP, just behind Fritz Peterson. Those numbers don't indicate a HOF career to me.
But Richie, didn't they essentially fix the chemistry/leadership problem when they replaced Randolph with Manuel? If I recall correctly, even you, at the end of the season, credited the Mets for going down fighting. They choked away the last week because 1) Again, their bullpen was horrendous, and 2) they couldn't handle the strong Florida pitching.
I agree with you on Castillo - I'd like to see them eat the money and get rid of him. But that's not happening. If Castillo sticks to his word and shows up in shape, he can be a league-average second baseman, IMHO, and his teammates will forgive him.
Ken, do his teammates even blame him?? I think thats part of the problem for me is I dont get a sense his teammates were upset with Castillo.
And yes, Ken, I loved the Mets and how they played at the end. Manuel created a winning atmosphere. But they choked again. And yes the pen was reason #1, but the lack of clutch hits in the final week were reason #2.
So like I've been saying since the 2nd collapse, they could use the Good Manny because he is so clutch and as we saw can loosen up a tight clubhouse. The Good Manny.
Or They could use the 4-year-ago Jason Veritek.
I do agree that a closer will help loosen up the tight bats but I still would like to do something to help the hitters when they desperately need a hit. Because the current crop has sorta proven to me that they may not be the players you want up.
Some teammates blame him, I'm sure, Richie. But what good will grudge-holding do? A good organization learns from its mistakes and moves forward, doesn't it?
And I think the fact that the Mets scored 799 runs last year - good enough to tie the Phillies for the second-highest total in the NL - provides ample evidence that these ARE the players you want up. You can't make huge decisions on your team based on the final three games of the season.
Bravo, Bob, for hitting the nail on the head with Puckett.
And Yankee fans, if you want to hit your own head, line up Puckett's numbers with Don Mattingly who, like Belle, was dominant for not-quite-enough years.
The Belle question really goes back to the Puckett Mistake, which is that by putting a player with those numbers in the Hall you open the argument up to a bunch of players (like Belle) whose case should be more dubious than it is. And by not considering Belle, you leave yourself with nothing more than liking one guy more than another guy.
Another case in point:
Player A:
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO
2296 7971 1025 2092 371 31 324 1225 3497 848 997
OBP SLG AVG
.335 .439 .262
Top ten MVP three times, three Gold Gloves, eleven All-Star games, two All-Star MVPs, three postseason appearances, one WS win.
Player B:
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO
2089 8225 1249 2452 373 79 382 1451 4129 670 1423
OBP SLG AVG
.352 .502 .298
One MVP, top ten MVP six times, eight All-Star games, two postseason appearances, one pennant. Lead leagune in HRs three times, RBIs twice, TB three times
Now guess which one cultivated (to the extreme) a relationship with the media, and which spent most of his career telling them to go to h***. That will tell you which one is in the HOF.