On the Yankees beat

Proof That The Red Sox Nation are pure homerism and stupid

Matsusaka-"best in world" says Burns

U.S. Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Nicholas
Burns welcomed the signing of Daisuke Matsuzaka with the Boston Red
Sox during an appearance at New York's Asia Society on Monday night.

''We hope he will bring to Boston another championship,'' Burns
told reporters after a speech on U.S. policy in South Asia. ''He's a great pitcher. He may be the best pitcher in the whole world. So
we're putting all of our faith in Matsuzaka.''

http://www.japanball.com/news.phtml?id=8402

I know we normally trust scouts, but it is strange to say that this guy pitches to contact when he has led the league in K two or three times. He must be doing something to miss bats. Look, we know the Yankees probably overpaid, but who knows, maybe like Boston they won't end up paying the full posting fee. If nothing else, Igawa will likely be useful out of then pen.

Apparently his curveball induces strikeouts, but he uses his changeup (his best pitch, apparently) and fastball to pitch to contact. I guess if his curveball was more consistent, he could be that much better.

I like players that comes under people's radar.

They seem to be the ones that rise to the occasion during critical times.

This might turn out to be better for the Yanks than Matsuzaka.

Rick,
Is this what we thought they would do? Lilly is asking for 10 million a year. That's nuts. But according to this scout his report on Igawa is not glowing. I heard that David Wright say the same thing about him. But Reyes said he had nasty stuff. Sometimes numbers on the radar gun dont equate to sucess in the Major Leagues. Remember Jimmy Key, Glavine, or even Kenny Rogers. So who knows. I can't see them leaving the rotation like this. Like you said Johnson is too much of a question mark to not do something else. Cashman's track record on pitcher's has been skeetchy at best. I hope he brings a proven starter. If not how does Mussina,Wang,Igawa,Johnson,Pavano scare anybody? I think Cashman is plotting another move. Their are all sorts of rumors out there. They include many players that could of been included in the A-Rod deal. Irvin Santana and Chone Figgins to the White Sox for Joe Crede and Freddy Garcia going back to the Angels. So the market for A-Rod may be drying up. If that happens than its just the free agency to improve the pitching. If not we have to hold out hope that we can try for someone at the trading deadline. Maybe if we knew what free-agent pitchers are available next year maybe we could hold out hope that's what Cash is thinking about. Otherwise maybe he's laying in the weeds like he did on Damon and he would swoop up Zito. I would not mind Zito. What do you think?

Phil

Wang pitches to contact also and I see him as the Yanks best pitcher. I wanna see him pitch in the majors before I can pass judgement. Even if scouts say this or that about him these are the same guys that convince teams to throw millions of dollars at mediocre players.

The Orioles and Paul Bako have agreed to terms, the Baltimore Sun reports.

Nice to see the Orioles finally addressing their offense. In truth, if there's one place the Orioles can afford to go cheap, it's backup catcher. Ramon Hernandez isn't going to need more than one day off per week, and while Bako is a truly atrocious hitter, he's a solid catch-and-throw guy.
Source: Baltimore Sun

Bengie Molina or Mika Piazza as possibilities Jorge Posada's backups?

Matsuzaka:
K/9---Career ERA---IP---BID PRICE
8.7-----2.95------1402---$51.1M

Igawa:
K/9---Career ERA---IP---BID PRICE
8.5-----3.17------1235---$25M

I don;t care what your scout says, the numbers say they are the same pitcher.

BIG CAVEAT: I cannot find the stats for this guys walk rates, so his control is an unknown to me, but then so is Matsuzakas. But aside fromt he marketing hype, these guys seem to be equivalent.

I've seen Igawa pitch in person while in Japan. He pitched two games that I attended and to be honest, it wasn't a thrill. He struck out something like 4 guys, all on high fastballs that MLB hitters will clobber. The guys he struck out looked like high school players to me. He had some control problems during those games as well. The positive here is that he's lefty ahd that's all the positive things I can think of. I can't believe we bid $25M for this guy. This guy can't be considered an "under the radar" type guy for $25M.
If this was our big move as far as the pitching staff is concerned, it's going to be a long season.

mets bid was 15-19 range

which basically means we bid 2-3 mill more a yr on a 3 yr deal so the mets obviously thought reasonably high of him too. i guess we'll have to wait and see. if u look at what boston's doing, we might be able to reduce the fee to 20 million which means he's a 10 million a yr pitcher, same as lilly or meche. just a preference choice by us it seems.

Let's see now, $25 mil to talk and about another $24 mil for 3 years = $49 mil for 3 years. Lilly at $10 mil per x 4 years = $40 mil.

So, we could have gotten a PROVEN AL East 15 game winner and 200 innings for a whole extra year and saved $9 mil to boot. You tell me which is the better deal? What is Cashman doing?

Will everyone just chill? I'm okay with the move cause all the free agent pitchers are mediocre or have injury-related questions and they all want 3-4 year deals so Cashman will see what he can get from a young 27 year old for a total of 25 mil plus 18-21 mil for 3 years from 'friendly' Telem instead of absurd Boras. I'd like to see a trade for Dantrell Willis; otherwise, let's give Hughes, Rasner, etc., an opportunity. I'm so tired of Pavano,Wright,Louiza,Weaver,Contreras type re-treads.

Steve

I will grant you that Lilly is not a Cy Young candidate, but he is only 30 years old, good for 200 innings a year, a 15 game winner, a PROVEN AL pitcher, LH, can handle NY, and would cost about the same money. He is basically similar to a Mussina at this point in Mike's career. And we just gave him $11.5 mil per. What is so wrong with signing Lilly?

Rick- I agree 100%. Lilly was the better choice here. LH, Durable, above average stuff, MLB experience.
The Bergen County paper said today that the Astros GM thinks Clemens and Pettitte will ultimately decide to come back to the Yankees. If Pettitte joined the rotation and Randy J. recovered from surgery, we'd have 3 LH starters. Interesting. I do not have high hopes about the Clemens-Pettitte return though.

What about thinking of it this way, and I'm usually a pragmatist but I'll play Devil's advocate and try to see the glass as half-full. He's 27, and is coming out of several strong Japanese seasons; high strikeouts, low ERA. Say the Japanese league is as good as Triple-A (I don't know in reality how good it is, probably better than Triple-A ball?). With stats and a track record like that, that would be grounds to bring up a minor leaguer.

Now from the Yankees' point of view, they're shelling out $25 million - a lot of money, but Steinbrenner can afford it. This amount doesn't go towards the pay roll, or towards luxury tax, etc. Then say they sign him for 2 years, $12 million, maybe 3 for $17-18. That's still less than they would have had to pay for Lilly, who would probably get around 4 years for $40, and is someone whom they see as a the same quality player. They essentially get the same pitcher for less years and dollars on the payroll- the less years being important for the flexibility it provides for the future. And we can still bring up Hughes at some point this season, and have room for the likes of Sanchez, Rasner, et. al. in the future.

Of course, at least with someone like Lilly, who's pitched in NY before, we know what we're going to get.

Thoughts?

PS - comparing Lilly at this point in his career to Mussina when he was 30 is not even close.

Jim A

Apparently, the Yankees paid more than $26 mil just to talk to Igawa. For an additional $14 mil they could have Lilly locked up for 4 years. What a HUGE mistake!

Not that it wouldn't help, but I really don't think Clemens and Pettite are the answer for us, especially at the price they will command. Clemens COULD cost $20 mil just for 1 year.

I say we go get Lilly now. Then after RJ is done, we will still have 2 LH's in Lilly and Igawa to go along with Wang, Mussina, and Hughes in 2008.

atticas

I was comparing Lilly now (at age 30) to Mussina now (age 38). And we just signed Mussina for 2 years at $23 mil for numbers that are similar to Lilly's now. So, Lilly should be worth $23 mil for 2 years or $46 mil for 4 years. The point I was making is that Lilly should be worth what Mussina is NOW, not when Mussina was 30.

So Cashman is willing to overpay for Kei Igawa, who most scouts say is a back of the rotation starter (It looks like NY over bid the Mets by 10 million). Why didn't they just pony up the cash to get the better pitcher in Matsuzaka? A classic over reaction by Cashman in my opinion. The money would've been better spent on Ted Lilly, Schimit, or Petitte.

What are similarities Karstens and Igawa and have in common?

Kartens picture

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/text/sports/m-basebl/auto_headshot/p-karstens03.jpg

Igawa Picture

http://www.k-igawa.com/ironnerves/200407.html

So basically The Yankees acquired Left-handed version of Kartens.

Kartens and Igawa doesn't have overpowering fastball and stuff. They relied on their curveball and changeup. They are exactly look alike. thoughts?

I agree with another poster. This bid has the "Boss" written all over it. I don't think this one is Cashman's doing.

Phil D

I think Zito would be great for us. But, I don't think he really wants to play in NY and he will command way to much money.

But, he COULD anchor the rotation for years to come and eat up lots of innings in the process. Him and Wang would make a great 1-2 punch.

Let's see now. Zito for 6 years at $75 mil - $26 mil Igawa fee spent to talk = $49 mil. So, Zito for 6 years at $49 mil = just over $8 mil per year. Which is the better deal?

Everybody Is Forgetting One Major Thing, The 25 million Bid Could be

Cashman is about to head into the winter meetings, and the best pitcher on the market is, weather you like him or not, Barry Zito. Cashman last year said "We're going with Bubba Crosby in CF next year" and Cash used that as a leverage when dealing with Damon.
This 25 mill bid may simply be followed by a 10 million / 2 year offer with many incentives.

Boras has asked for $15 mill per year from the Sox to sign Matsasuka. But the Sox know Boras has no leverage. What will Boras do? Not take the 8 million the Sox offer him, and go back to Japan and take the 2.5 million? It makes no sense, and I'm sure the Sox wont mind taking the 51 million back.

The 25 Million bid might be a move by Cashman to have some leverage over Zito. Zito's agent knows the Yankees need a starter, and everybody knows Proctor probably wouldnt be their 5th starter. Theres no way Cashman offers Igawa a 8 mill contract, expect a very low contract, that will make the signing a 10 mill / year signing, in essence replacing Wright's contract

Lot of talk about Lilly being durable, but he's never pitched over 200 innings and has average 5 2/3's per start last 4 years. Thats Jaret Wright-esque.

That said, I think the Yanks overbid for a 5th starter, and should have just gone with Rasner, Karstens, etc. for a lot cheaper.

This last move my cashman doesnt seem in line with his others moves so far this offseason. I agree with others in that theres more to this than we know. I believe that this move will be used for Zito leverage and if that fails simply to low ball this other dude. Something just seems amiss.

Can We Get 10 Million Dollars Back On The Bid Too?

I was wondering if the Yankees could get 10 million dollars back to help make the deal with igawa. Seeing if the Red Sox could do it, why cant we?

Ankur - very well put. The love affair with Lilly, I think, is a bit misguided and a product of the weak market. I'm not saying Igawi is the answer, or that I'm happy per se with the move. But right now it is what it is- it's a seller's market with a dearth of real talent.

Listen, on the surface this is not a great move, but I am going to reserve judgment until we see him pitch in person. He has excellent numbers in Japan, but the fact that it is unanimous among scouts that he does not have overpowering stuff is a definite concern. But, seeing as I have never seen him pitch, I am going to assume that the Yankees see something special in him. Maybe his fastball moves. Maybe his curveball shows depth. Or maybe he is a Jamie Moyer-type of pitcher who can be effective working the corners.

The fact is we won't know until April. No, I do not think this was a move by the Boss. Brian Cashman has been running this team since last year and I doubt that, suddenly, the Boss felt he was ineffective and went over his head. Cashman would not stand for it seeing as it is his legal right to determine what is best for the Yankees. The only thing I cannot determine is whether the Yankees misread the market for Daisuke Matsuzaka or simply did not think as highly of him as the Red Sox did. The fact that they offered $25 million on Kei Igawa and $30 million on Matsuzaka when Daisuke had such a better write up is definitely confusing.

BTW, while I agree with most people on the Ted Lilly belief, I would like to clarify that Ted Lilly is not an innings eater. He has had his share of injuries like everybody else has. And, contrary to Lilly, Igawa has proven to be a reliable workhorse in Japan - consistently pitching over 200 innings per season. While it is fun to question what management is doing, I am sure that Cashman and his staff are well aware of what the team just bid on. It will be interesting to see, but all I know is that I cannot wait until spring training.

Breaking News

Jimmie Lee Solomon, executive VP of baseball operations in the commissioner's office, said any side deals used to convert Daisuke Matsuzaka's posting fee into salary for the right-hander would not be allowed.
So, MLB wants to crack down five years after the Mariners were allowed to go around the posting system with Ichiro? "There are no side deals in the situation," Soloman said. "Everybody's been assured that's not allowed, and everybody's been made aware of the rules." We'll see. The whole posting system is ridiculous in the first place and can only breed corruption. A report earlier this month, prior to the awarding of Matsuzaka's rights, said that three teams had attempted under-the-table negotiations with Seibu. After the events of this winter, maybe MLB and Japan will get around to trying something different.

The scouting reports are not good, but consider this. The Diamondbacks had the opportunity to get Cano and / or Wang for R. Johnson in early '05, but passed because their scouts "weren't that high" on either one. How did that work out? Wang finished 2nd in the Cy Young ballot and Cano's BA was among the league leaders in his second full season.

Yankees win rights to negotiate with Tigers ace pitcher Igawa
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/sports/news/20061129p2a00m0sp008000c.html

"quote"

"It's a traditional club and the media pays close attention to it just like the Tigers. I'd like to pitch for them as a starter," Igawa told a news conference.

Picture of Igawa's Conference

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/sports/news/images/20061129p2a00m0na010000p_size6.jpg

I really can't believe this deal is for real. Don't be surprised if Cashman uses Igawa in a trade--Japanese players are very marketable as we all know. I cant see the Yanks going into Spring Training with Wang, Moose(been on DL last 3 seasons) Randy(off back surgery)Pavano(won't ever pitch for the Yanks) and an unproven Igawa-Forget about it. Cash has something huge up his sleeve and I could see them shelling out huge bucks for Zito-I'm for it, he's young, extremely durable and has pitched in the AL-He will give you 35 starts 200+ innings every year. Even beat Santana in the Metrodome in the playoffs. Forget Lilly, He's been known to break down and doesn't go more than 6 innings a start.
I still wouldn't be surprised to see A-Rod moved either.

Hopefully this doesn't mean we won't go after Lilly. Maybe with Gator as his coach he develops a more consistent release point for his breaking pitch making it more reliable. At 27 he's still learning and the Yankees have the best coaches/instructors/gurus that he can learn from. Let's hold judgment until after a few starts. It's still early to really know what Cashman is planning and if Igawa, Lilly or Zito will be on the roster come April. Next week is going to be interesting, I hope.

I'm going to reserve judgment on this guy as well for now. On the surface it does seem strange, but then I never thought the bidding for Matsuzaka would clear $30M. The thing about Ted Lilly, besides the fact that he is lefthanded and can pitch in the AL, that everyone seems to be overlooking here is that he gives Boston fits. Everything written about him above is true, but I've always been a fan of his (he almost singlehandedly knocked the Red Sox out of the playoffs a couple of years ago until Eric Byrnes and Miguel Tejada suffered vapor lock) and it's possible he is a late bloomer. I also think the Yankee environment could challenge him like never before. His mind seems to wander in my opinion. I know for a fact he has the ability and seems to rise to the occasion at times when you count him out, but if there is one "mediocre" pitcher on the market that I would like to see the Yanks take a chance on it would be Lilly. Unfortunately the Adam Eaton and Randy Wolfe signings are driving up the cost of doing business. If he would agree to a two year $20M contract it'd be a no brainer, but he won't. I think we just missed our chance to get him back. Whether that is a good thing or not remains to be seen. I think Igawa can be successful despite the general ho hum reviews, but I'd feel a lot better if the bidding was $11M or something. We had to do something and it sure looks like Lilly and or Meche would run us in the neighborhood of $45M for four years right now and it's only going to get worse. I can't believe pitchers like Erwin Santana and Brandon McCarthy are even available, but I'd rather target one of them if at all possible (and yes I'm well aware McCarthy hasn't proven a damn thing yet). I will agree with the school of thought that there is something brewing. I think a big splash deal or signing of some sort is in the offing. Just my two cents.

Maybe i'm wrong but tell me what was the yankee team era specifically the starters . and what is your take on the gator as a COACH?? the reason i ask this is becasue of the up and coming youth pitching we have coming up. Imean ever since Torre complained about the TAMPA crew the team pitching got worse

the more i think of this possible deal the more I'm impressed, you see Cash has a plan (or i'm giving him too much credit)I'm not gonna to say it but i tell you this the redsox stupid negotiations right now with the other pitcher is working right into cash's plan , right now the sox is offering 7-8 mil per. boras is asking 15 mil way things is he is not seeing that , great barganing right? well depends how you see it . you see the yankees will throw 6 - 9 mil per at this guy letting him know he is no Mats, so lets say the sox sign dude for 7-9 mil . ok that LOWERS the yankee price even less because like i stated Igwa is no mats according to the world, phase 2 , lets say Bosox loses out and there guy goes back to japan , well guess where he comes NEXT year???

The problem I'm having with this guy is two fold: A. He's not overpowering and B. He doesn't have great control.
In order to succeed, you have to be one, the other or both. Guys like Randy Johnson (when he WAS Randy Johnson) could get by without their best stuff because the could blow people away. Guys like Greg Maddux and Jamie Moyer paint the corners, but don't overpower anyone. If you don't throw hard and/or don't have great control in the AL you are not going to succeed.

Scouts are worthless. I couldn't care less what they say.

Look at this guy's numbers, they're very close to Matsuzaka's. Pitchers should be judged based on performance, not on the velocity of their fastball. This guy has clearly excelled in Japan with the tools that he has in his arsenal. The numbers do not lie folks - this guy is a good pitcher.

I agree with OYF in that Gator may be able to work with this guy on his breaking stuff. Japanese players work hard on fundamentals so I believe that Igawa will do the same.

Brian is a genius trust me, 25 mil is nothing it is the contract that is the works and the possibility that bostons bid don't fly meaning that Matszuka may go back and come to NY next year, He wanted and hoped The Yankees won the highest bid. below is my prior statements...

the more i think of this possible deal the more I'm impressed, you see Cash has a plan (or i'm giving him too much credit)I'm not gonna to say it but i tell you this the redsox stupid negotiations right now with the other pitcher is working right into cash's plan , right now the sox is offering 7-8 mil per. boras is asking 15 mil way things is he is not seeing that , great barganing right? well depends how you see it . you see the yankees will throw 6 - 9 mil per at this guy letting him know he is no Mats, so lets say the sox sign dude for 7-9 mil . ok that LOWERS the yankee price even less because like i stated Igwa is no mats according to the world, phase 2 , lets say Bosox loses out and there guy goes back to japan , well guess where he comes NEXT year???

it's incredible! every time the yankees pull a questionable move, someone will jump up and say it's the Boss's doing rather than cashman!?!?! how come a guy who, as someone correctly wrote earlier, has a highly shady record with pitchers (he signed pavano for the love of god...) always remains teflon?? i just don't get it. this is the first panic move of the season, and don't you go saying it's got nothing to do with the red-sox bid. come on.
this guy is no moyer/glavine. he doesn't paint corners,he strikes out hitters who are little leaguers compaired to the talent in the AL. he's not going to strike out anyone with a high 88 mph fastball. this is sadly a PR move.
however, i'm still hoping there's a catch here somewhere, a hidden rabbit in the hat. if this is THE pitching move of the winter, we're up the creek...

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