On the Yankees beat

Uh, if the worst thing that happens for Andy and the Yankees is that he comes back for another year in 2009 at $16 mil I think we can all live with that.

I'm sure being away from the family is tough, but he can gut it out.

Very happy to have him back, a real TRUE YANKEE.

Andy's the MAN!!!! Glad to have him back (although, did you have to make us sweat so much Andy???)

Chip

DITTOS...We agree on something buddy...WOW!!!!!

Andy RULES! Our horse is back!

Pettitte is certainly a "Yankee Legend", but we live in the NOW. Who would you posters rather have "right now". Santana or Pettitte. Since money is now the primary concern in Yankee Land, basically it came down to would the Yanks be a better team by adding Santana, and not having Pettitte\Hughes\Melky? Kennedy was not part of the "rumored" final asking price of the Twins. And don't speculate about filling "holes" with free agent signings\Rowand.

Pettite - HANDS DOWN!!!

Well Roy, that is a loaded question. Its like asking, "do you love your Uncle Buck or that hot str!pper down the street." Oh course we all want that str!pper ( for Diane and Marianne think of the hot chip and dales dancer with the banana hammock ), but we love our uncle Buck. The way Andy pitched against the Tribe brought tears to my eyes.

Uh, rotation of Santana, Mussina, Wang, Kennedy, Joba with Damon in CF and Matsui in LF (Defensively) is not better than a rotation of Andy, Wang, Joba, Hughes, Mussina with Kennedy as the primary back up and a defensive outfield of Melky and Damon.

There are no performance questions remaining about Andy Pettitte other than how long he can do what he does.

For any pitcher who has never pitched for the Yankees there is always at least one question: how will he do during that first year in the cauldron?

Rick,

Lets try to not make a habit of it, makes me feel dirty

As for the Mitchel report....yyyaaaaawwwwwnnnnn. Wake me up when this BS is all over. It will be the hottest topic on Friday, until next week when nobody cares any more. Whats the point really? Bonds and Pudge did roids? Thanks for the breaking news. No player is going to get suspended. The Owners will say "I didnt know" The people who will be hung out to dry are the trainers and the GM's. The trainers will all be fired (there are hundreds to take their place), but was it really their fault? The players association will protect the players and the lawyers will protect the owners. The trainers have nobody in their corner and will get burned at the stake for this. Not too fair if you ask me.

As far as roids helping you hit, AKA Bonds jacking 70+ HR's at the end of his career, it does. Think of it this way. Go down to the batting cages and hit the 40mph baseballs. Pretty easy huh, you can just wait back and spray the ball anywhere you want. No go into the 90mph cage. Pretty hard isn’t it? Maybe you hit a couple, but you either swing and miss or foul them off. You’ll notice that you have to start your motion before the ball is released. Thats the thing with performance enhancing drugs. It not only helps your power, but your speed. When everyone was loving Bonds after he broke the record, ESPN did a piece on him breaking down his swing. They showed a side to side comparison of a normal player's swing and Bonds swing. The normal player had to start his swing much earlier than Bonds. Where as Barry could wait back to see, is this a fastball, curve, slider etc. His bat speed enabled him to do this, wait until the last second to swing. Any normal MLB player could not wait that long, if they did the pitch would be fouled off the other way. Bonds was able to wait and still pull the ball with force. That is where the drugs helped Bonds and other players like Ken Caminiti, Sosa and McGuire. Sure they knew how to hit already, this made them better.

Again though, does anyone really care? What if Papi, Jeter, Pujols, Arod, Miggy, Santana, Peavy, Hafner, Sheff are all on the report? Will people stop going to games and purchasing their jerseys? This is all a bunch of BS if you ask me, a dog and pony show for Congress.

Chip - I agree with you buddy. Better defense and younger rotation.

Miguel Tejada was traded to Houston. Orioles will get outfielder Luke Scott, pitchers Matt Albers, Troy Patton and Dennis Sarfate, and third baseman Michael Costanzo.

Wow, good move for the Stros. Nice work Chip.

Wow, alot to give up by Stros for a guy on the decline and going to be in the midst of all these steroid talks. Kudos to Baltimore I say.

Roy: You posted on the previous thread about insurance money for Pavano. The Yankees HAVE NOT hidden the fact that it's the REASON they want him signed to a minor league deal. Why you needed to put it in quotes or act like it was some secret you had discovered is beyond me. To go further, ANYONE that thinks having Santana over Pettite, Hughes, Melkey, Horne, Marquez is a good idea has little to no understanding of baseball. Though I think the Yanks would've resigned Pettite even if they had made the Santana trade (which I'm glad they did not). I don't believe in this frugal excuse being laid out. I think the Yanks do need to be more frugal and I'd be happy to see a homegrown Yankee starting every game of this coming season (sorry Moose, wanna go to Philly? I've heard those rumors...). Give me Pettite, Wang, Hughes, Joba, IPK with some fill-in starts from Horne & Marquez.

As far as the Mitchell report, I think there will be some surprising names and I want to remind people that it is VERY common for players from poor countries in South America, the Carribean, etc. to have juiced trying for their big break and better life. That said, one could see many Latino players on the list. Would I be surprised if Rocket was on the list? No. Do I think he is? No. Why? That's simple. Look at McGwire and how he broke down. There are so many players that have broken down. Rocket, he kept trucking along. That rumor that he had to sit out 50 games due to suspension in 2006, I dismissed as fast as I heard it. A former Yankee that I loved that was once rumored was Soriano. He gained approximately 30lbs between his rookie year with the Yanks and his second season. Now, I've always attributed it to working with better trainers and having a more rigid training structure. I mean, he has never been a big guy and with his heritage, the odds were if he was a juicer, he'd have already been juicing before his rookie year.

It's an interesting move for the Astros - figure the top of their lineup will be something like:

Michael Bourn
Kaz Matsui
Hunter Pence
Carlos Lee
Lance Berkman
Miguel Tejada

that should be pretty formidable in that division - of course they have very little pitching, but the NL Central is, as always, as open as Paris Hilton's legs.

Tejada was a Yankee killer. I'm thrilled that he's gone.

HYD are you saying that Latino players are more likely to cheat? Most of these young players trying to make a mark are from humble working homes and maybe even borderline poverty it's not just the Latino players from developing countries. Even the silver spooners from Ivy League colleges are tempted to speed up their clock to the majors. And the oldies (white, balck latino) trying to extend their time, what about them?

Tejada gone...next up in the fire sale...Bedard. Good for the O's, they know that the Sox and Yanks will dominate the division the next couple years. The Blue Jays have a deep roatation and an above average hitting lineup if Glaus and Wells bounce back this season. On top of that the D-Rays are only going to get better each season with the young talent they have. The O's need to go into 100% rebuilding mode. Hard not to keep guys like Roberts and Bedard, but I dont think they have a choice. Mora, Bedard, Roberts, Patterson...all may be traded for Blue Chipers.

For regular readers, here's something I've been railing about for a while now:

matt,mpls: Just to let Twins fans know, I am throwing a raging party when Carl Pohlad dies. That sounds horrible, I know, but his cheapness has been killing me for years. He is the richest owner in baseball and we have to have discussions about trading the best pitcher in baseball right now.

SportsNation Rob Neyer: (12:57 PM ET ) What bothers me isn't that he won't dig into his pockets and sign Santana. What bothers me is that he won't dig into his pockets and finance the ballpark. These guys buy teams, act like they're somehow doing it for the good citizens of their city, and then demand that the citizens give *them* a few hundred million bucks for a shiny building. Shameful.

The Mitchell report is worthless because of its conflict of interest. Mitchell is the director of the Red Sox front office and refused to step down. I'm curious to see if any present Red Sox players are on that list -- or any Red Sox players from the 2004 team. I'm also curious as to how many Yankees are on that list, past and present. Selig is an a$$ who needs to resign -- and he should take Red Sox worshipper Mitchell along with him.

I see what you're saying, but I think Mitchell is a standup guy. He's got a lot on the line with this report and would be a fool to show any type of favoritism in any direction. This report will be broken down coast to coast looking for any cracks.

The Mitchell report will be as worthwhile as its evidence. If there is clear evidence for its conclusions then it won't matter who gathered it.

HOW NAIVE

Anon -

Howard Bryant had an interesting article about Mitchell's conflict of interest (or the perceived conflict of interest) on ESPN.com yesterday. He points out that Jose Canseco, Paxton Crawford, Manny Alexander, Jeremy Giambi, and Mo Vaughn have all admitted or been caught with PED's, all are ex-Red Sox and none were interviewed by Mitchell or his team. Manny Alexander, when he was caught, confessed that a Red Sox bat boy gave him the steroids, and still there was no investigation.

Am I saying that Mitchell's report will be biased towards Boston players, no, I have no way of knowing that. But what I am saying is that once again Bud Selig had the chance to handle something the right way or the wrong way and he opted for the wrong way. Rather than picking someone who is above reproach with no ties to the game - he chose Mitchell, a friend of his.

The Bryant article also goes in depth on how Bud Selig orchestrated the sale of the Red Sox to two of his friends in John Henry and Tom Werner - higher bids were made by other parties, but Selig would not authorize them as owners. Again, Bud Selig has done some great things for baseball - the Wild Card, Inter League play - even revenue sharing - but the backroom politics that he practices in trying to fill the owners' boxes with his cronies and not forcing teams to use revenue sharing dollars to improve their product is a disgrace.

Anon -am I? Well lets take a look at Mr Mitchell...

After leaving the senate Mitchell joined the Washington, D.C. law firm Verner, Liipfert, Bernhard, McPherson and Hand; he later became the firm's chairman. He is also senior counsel to Preti, Flaherty, Beliveau, Pachios & Haley in Portland, Maine.

Since 1995, he has been active in the Northern Ireland peace process as U.S. Special Envoy to Northern Ireland. Mitchell first led a commission that established the principles on non-violence to which all parties in Northern Ireland had to adhere and subsequently chaired the all-party peace negotiations, which led to the Belfast Peace Agreement signed on Good Friday 1998. Mitchell's personal intervention with the parties was crucial to the success of the talks. He was succeeded as special envoy by Richard Haass.

Since 2002, Mitchell has been a Senior Fellow and Senior Research Scholar at the Columbia University Center for International Conflict Resolution, where he works to help end or avert conflicts between nations.

He has frequently been mentioned in the past in conjunction with potential appointment for the position of Commissioner of Baseball, but nothing to accomplish this has ever been effected. He also has been mentioned in both 2000 and in 2004 as a potential Secretary of State for a Democratic administration, due to his role as Senate Leader and the Good Friday agreements.

He is the Chancellor of the Queen's University of Belfast, Northern Ireland, and namesake of the George J. Mitchell Scholarship, which sponsors graduate study for twelve Americans each year in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

He is the founder of the Mitchell Institute, in Portland, Maine, whose mission is to increase the likelihood that young people from every community in Maine will aspire to, pursue and achieve a college education.

So you are saying he would toss all that out the window to fudge a baseball report in the Red Sox favor and against the Yanks? Who's being Naive now. Keep that trash in sports talk radio, Im sure they'll have fun talking about it. Why dont we wait until the report is out before passing judgment. Well I guess making a statement like that is easy when you post it as "Anonymous"

HUGHES YOUR DADDY-
I haven't seen anything about insurance money being paid to a team for a player they have released and then signed to a minor league contract. What is the source? You don't believe in the "frugal excuse", yet you believe the Yanks need to be more frugal. Just what do you think is currently going on? And what "surprising names" are we gonna hear in that Mitchell Report? Be specific.

HOW PRAGMATIC.

The information is always more important than the messenger. As long as that information is accurate the report will have served its ostensible purpose.

Chip, you are right on point with that info, good job.

Roy, I think HYD is correct about the insurance money. Ill try and dig up some info on it later.

No OYF, that's not what I'm saying.

Let me explain:

There was a report done by ESPN on Outside the Lines sometime in the past year and some articles that went deeper into the story. The story was that 1. steroids were readily available, 2. steroids were commonly taken by young athletes (as young as 12) in their attempts to make it big and into a better life, and 3. that steroids had caused a lot of pain, sickness and in some cases death. In some of these areas, particularly poor regions, there was a lack of knowledge of the negative side-effects that steroids had, particularly on youth.

I hope that clarifies. Sorry for the confusion.

Diane are you using those big words again? Hey look at me, I use big words, I am smarter than you. Let me guess Diane, you are single and have a cat right. Haha

That Mitchell Report is gonna be another Warren Report. The "real" truth is never in the report, but in the field work investigation, interviews, and depositions taken. The actual report is usually a "homogenized" concoction that satisfies no one. Coming from a former US Senator, what else would you expect?

The rules for obtaining drugs are different in different countries. It is more related to the political influence of drug companies than anything else. Drug companies have tight control over the process in the United States, which simply means that you pay more and involve doctors and pharmacists and pay them more as well. It does not affect the overall rates of use much. I remember forty years ago birth control pills were tightly controlled here but available over the counter without a prescription in Mexico. The differences in method of distribution did not mean that a higher percentage of people in Mexico used birth control pills than in the US.

Roy/Diane, I couldnt agree with you guys more.

Gramps, great job as always!

Roy: The article was on ESPN and just about blog I can think of regarding the intent to keep Pavano because of insurance money. I have given my point of view regarding the Yankees spending and how much I enjoy watching the young kids play (we're the same age), especially since I've followed them through Trenton and in some cases SI and even went to SWB for a couple of games (Hughes pitched opening day there on my birthday, so of course that's how I celebrated). I gave a lengthy explanation of my thoughts regarding ticket prices, revenue sharing, luxury tax, etc. in response to a question from Jim A. directed to me. The response was detailed, so if you'd like to scroll back through old threads, I'm sure you can find it. On that note, part of it was also posted on MVN's Bronx Block in response to EJ & Jim's views on baseball's need for a salary cap/floor. Simply put though, there's more joy in winning with a team that competes in the same stratosphere in financial spending as the rest of the league. The Yanks could surely afford a $300 million payroll and could just buy player after player until one works, but what fun would it be? I tell you, if the Yanks were to go 162 - 0, I'd be pretty bored with the season and disinterested. At that point, I'd pay my full attention to the Minor League club. Cashman loves Hughes. Plain and simple. Hank set a deadline and decided to stick to it. The Yanks do believe that Santana will become a FA and so do I. Again, that statement is based on the current facts and circumstances. As facts and circumstances change, so may my opinion. Unlike you though, my opinions are truly based on facts and circumstances and I acknowledge when I shift my beliefs as opposed to claiming through some conspiracy that my theory can now be contorted.

I don't have names on who I think the surprises will be, just a hunch.

Correction to my first sentence: ...just about every blog...

Anon,

If you don't have a dictionary there are free ones on line. Try these:

m-w.com

dictionary.com

Finally have something to DISAGREE with HYD about.
First, how would you think a latin player, from a poor background, in a poor country, could afford to buy performance enhancing drugs? Through an enabler, such as an agent? From the US? Give me a break. Is Jason Grimsley hispanic? Rick Ankiel? Bret Boone? Barry Bonds?
Use of performance enhancing drugs TRANSENDS race, color lines and would be used primarily by guys who can AFFORD TO BUY THE STUFF!!!
Of course, once they came over to the big leagues and secured a contract, then I could see your point - JC Romero, Rafael Palmiero, etc.....
Think you have missed the point on this one, youngster.

Mike: These drugs are dirt cheap in these countires. I haven't missed the point at all. The issue of middle school aged kids taking steroids is much larger in latin countries than in the US. That my friends is a fact. Nothing I stated is opinion. It's all been reported on and regurgitated <sp? by me.

Besides, approx. 95% of Latin ballplayers have to start in the minors before coming up to the bigs to make certain they are ready - with exceptions being El Duque and his brother, and Contreras. A lot of these guys remain in the minors for 2-3 years, and I think testing is done at the A, AA, and AAA levels for PHD's, right? Another reason the argument has minimal validity, except for the concept a desperate athlete will do almost anything to make it to the next level, which I will concede to you.

*countries

Consider the timeframe of the Mitchell Report (2004) when MLB and MiLB were not testing.

I think the articles you are mentioning are attempting to use the "see it's not only our kids" argument to condone PHD use among their own. Major leagues have scouts all over in these countries and are not going to invest major dollars on kids who are artificially enhanced and will not pass scrutiny in the US and MLB. Not gonna happen. Too much money, and reputation at stake. Like I said, they do it once they get to the big league level in order to compete, surpass, or survive. Period.

Will ESPN please just admit they are Red Sox nation?

1. Peter Gammons is the most effective propaganda minister since Goebbels.

2. They have commercials where ESPN personalities openly admit that they are Red Sox fans

3. Bill Simmons (who, btw, has had a trajectory frighteningly like Dane Cook, except that Simmons didn't always s.uck.

4. Page 2 has an interview with Dane Cook which doesn't have as its premise "Why do you s.uck so much and just what exactly is your deal with Satan.

5. Next to a Dane Cook blowie piece is a poll asking who the Yankees' scapegoat will be this upcoming season and including Joba as an option.

Add your own pieces of evidence to the list.

Will they please, please just slap a Red Sox logo on the front page?

Any correlation between the O's dealing Tejada and the Mitchell Report going public in a few days?

Fat Actress is convicned Sox get Santana
[quote]
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/12/schill_on_santa.html

In an appearance on sports radio WEEI's Dennis and Callahan show this morning, Curt Schilling said he is convinced the Red Sox will eventually complete a trade for Twins ace Johan Santana.

"I just know that once you leave the winter meetings, things don't go on the same schedule," Schilling said, "but I really think it's going to happen."

Schilling talked about what the Red Sox rotation would be like with Santana in the mix.

"That just seems to me to be a potentially unfair setup, in a really cool way," Schilling said of a potential fantasy rotation of Josh Beckett, Santana, Schilling, Daisuke Matsuzaka and one of Tim Wakefield, Jon Lester, or Clay Buchholz.

He joked, "I'm looking at being a spot-starter No. 5 guy, which I'm entirely OK with because I see us having trouble not winning 120 games."

On Ellsbury ...
Schilling also talked about Jacoby Ellsbury's recent signing with agent Scott Boras and his appearance at a memorabilia event, where his autographs were sold for more than $100.

"There are a lot of guys doing that," Schilling said. "You had the kid who's pure as the driven snow, and all of a sudden, in your mind [host Gerry Callahan], he's tainted now because he signed with the devil [Boras], and he did what most other players in the game do which is charge people for his autograph.

"I think you learn kind of quick, doing those [signings] though, that that's just not the way to do it ... I stopped doing public autograph shows where cash was exchanged probably about 10 or 12 years ago. They're dirty. Dirty, dirty, dirty things."

On his weight ...
Schilling was asked if he was getting close to his ideal weight.

"I'm getting there," Schilling said. "The hard part about dropping weight in my situation is that we're lifting now, so you're putting on a little muscle and some mass at the same time. Generally at the beginning of situations like this is you move kind of quickly putting mass on so the weight drop is hard."[/quote]

Oh come on Anon, let the general pop sweat the Sox, what do you care? Already we are seeing the pink Red Sox hats and Sox fans coming out of the woodwork. Ben Affleck, Matt Damon and Jennifer Garner are at games, driving up the ticket prices. The Sox always had that "real fan" image, the underdog, the lovable losers. That's all gone now, they are the en vogue team. The team now has a boatload of fair weather fans. They have all the publicity, all the glamour and all the fame. They have become everything they hated about the Yanks after the 2000 season. Now they are making the big splashes in the FA market with Dice-K and now Santana. Now the Yanks are the underdogs, now the Yanks are building from within. Soon the Sox will be hated by the nation as well. This is true Red Sox fan's worst nightmare, they have become that which they hate. This is going better than I ever thought, I welcome it all!!!

I post this in another thread but so what.

Jim A

Like someone said you can bulk up without using.

The Jail system is prime example .

As for Pudge , remember he was fat when he came up and HAD to work out or else 300 pds would have been a easy goal , his work out program had to be excessive due to his low matabilism meaning harder workouts.

Also I must state thsi as well . I hate the drug usage but in reality some of these players are victims. Like a girl who is dropped a pill in her drink. The reason I say in regards to SOME PLAYERS is easy you rely 100% on your trainers or Fitness "experts" to provide you with logical info on your upkeep and will uses medical /Fitness termnologies to fool you into taking a drug , How do i know ? I seen it first hand and the mere fact that I do not put any ole thing in my mouth and worship my natural body is what saved me and probally doomed me from furthing a minor league career which I do not care about as long as I'm healthy.

As for players who support things that seem suspect entering their bodies I have no compassion for just like I have no compassion for alcoholics of crack , coke , drug fiends.

But there are people and groups that call them "VICTIMS" and go after the SUPPLIERS why isn't that the case here??

a coke operations leader would get the rico law thrown at them while Vic Conte is smiling running around after a lite sentence?

Something wrong with that ...

Thinking of Sports
By: Tom Morgan

QUOTE
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=...57532&rfi=6

The very last thing that any team should try to do, unless they want to be despised, is to copy the moves of the New York Yankees.
At the winter meeting in Nashville last week, both the Red Sox and the Mets attempted to copycat the Yankees by buying their way to a championship.

Both teams made large offers to the Minnesota Twins for Johann Santana, a two-time Cy Young winner.

Disgusting! If you are going to paint the Yankees as the Evil Empire, which both Boston and the Mets have done, then you cannot go out and operate like they do.

The Yankees made themselves hated in the Steinbrenner era by trying to out-bid everyone else for the best players. The Yankees had Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens and Alex Rodriguez because they could throw more money at them than other teams could.

Rather than develop a solid team from within, the Steinbrenners always went for the quick fix. They brought in Reggie Jackson and paid him lots of money. They signed free agents to contracts that nobody else could or would afford.

When they won, using those methods, the Yankees got far less credit than did teams like Toronto or Florida, who won by using young players from within their own systems.

The Red Sox went a bit wild in the last decade and tried to spend more money than anyone except the Yankees. They paid Manny Ramirez, Curt Schilling and Daisuke Matsuzaka boatloads of money.

They gave a huge contract to J.D. Drew and another to Julio Lugo and another to Matt Clement. None of that last trio has been as successful as had been hoped.

The Mets went whole hog when they signed Carlos Beltran and Carlos Delgado. They gave big money to over-the-hill pitchers like Tom Glavine and Orlando Hernandez.

Most of the remaining teams in baseball cannot compete in this way. They need to form their rosters around mid-level players or youngsters who might someday be stars.

With the exception of the Detroit Tigers and to some extent the Dodgers, the other teams have not tried to copy the Yankees. In most cases they simply couldn't.

With the 2007 season over and their tail tucked between their legs after losing to the Red Sox, we knew that the Yankees would be out in the marketplace trying to purchase a big name pitcher.

Santana was the biggest name available, with Eric Bedard of Baltimore and Dan Haren of Oakland other possibilities.

When the Yanks offered their young centerfielder, Melky Cabrera, and their fine young pitcher, Phil Hughes, to the Twins for Santana, nobody was surprised. But for the Red Sox and the Mets to also attempt to snag Santana was sinking to the level of their hated rivals.

Why should the Red Sox, who are arguably now the best team in the game, be in need of a Santana? That is just piling on. Why should the rich get richer, just because they have more money to spend?

The move may be a little more justified for the Mets, simply because they had a terrible conclusion to their season and they need starting pitching, but really, do they need Santana?

It was nice having Santana playing in Minnesota. He was the best pitcher in the game and he was playing for a small market team. It gave a bit of a feeling of balance to the league.

The Twins would be competitive because they had a great pitcher that even the Yankees and Red Sox could not match.

But if Santana were to end up in New York or Boston, what sort of a signal would that send to baseball fans? Simply put, it would tell them that Steinbrenner money and John Henry money could buy more championships and the small teams would always be playing for second or third place at best.

I was glad when the Yankee negotiations with Minnesota fell through. But, I was also glad when Theo Epstein and the Red Sox could not work out a deal.

Baseball needs some balance if it is to stay interesting. If the rich teams can buy all of the best players, that balance has no chance of lasting.

It would not hurt the game at all if the Red Sox, Yankees and Mets were all put under a salary cap and forced to form their teams around young players.

Look at the late season excitement this year when Jacoby Ellsbury and Joba Chamberlain arrived on the scene.

We need more of that and less roster building through checkbooks alone.

Anon - A-F'IN-MEN!!! Thats what Ive been saying since day 1 on this blog. BRAVO TOM MORGAN

What do you get when you cross Carl Pavano with an onion?

A free agent acquisition who makes you cry.

cricket....cricket

Ant, “Is this mic on? Can the people in the back here me?”

; )

The above is not 100% true FA is the method of the new day, that is just the way. The Yankee payroll bolstered due to securing players like Jeter , Williams , etc. whom people said were being overpaid even then. Then the Giambi's and Johnson's came along and like most said if you saw Giambi's season in Oakland and Tino's decline this was a no brainer.

I still the Red Sox obsession is in full flight still.

Well said, Anemone.

There is Obsession on Both sides Nudge , come on get real both sides and even the people in Queens obsess over each other. The mets used to obsess over the braves as well.

In actuality The Yankees in planning 2007 and beyond were obsess over the TIGERS way of youth Development and not that of the Redsox

BX - Thats the problem. You cant pay players for what they have already done, that's ancient history, you have to sign players for what you think they can do for you.

I remember when Steinbrenner DEMANDED Giambi after the Yanks couldnt hit themselves out of a wet paper bag in 2001. The very next year the Sox signed a cheap 1B/DH player that we could have easly had. From then on out David Ortiz was one of the best players in the league, while Giambi went from a .320 hitter to a .260 hitter with power...with much less to come.

Giambi was 30 when we signed him, at the top of his game, a MVP winner in 2000. We get him and his lived up to the hype his 1st year hitting .314..41HR..122RBI...from that year on though the numbers started to drop big time. Now I know Giambi was juiced up and all, but Santana could experience the same. Having a great year in 08, good but not great year in 09, then nothing special after that time. These are the risks of signing these cant miss players, they cant stay on top forever.

Chip

You would be interested in the Elysian Fields Quarterly commentary by the editor, Tom Goldstein. If you visit www.efqreview.com, click on Current Issue and then click on 23.4 in past issues, you will be able to read an incredible article written by Goldstein (who is based in Minnesota) on "My Careeer in Politics," which is an outstanding description of the mind boggling ripoff perpetrated by Pohlad and the Twind vis-a-vis the public funding of the new stadium. Truly great journalism and a classic expose (accent 'grave' on the e!)

Great breakdown of the Yanks vs Tigers vs Sox lineups. As good as the Tigers lineup got, we are still the kings of swing! =

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=317733

I stated in a previous thread that the Tigers lineup is full of free swingers, glad to see someone actually broke it down.

The Boss actually wanted Ortiz when first on waivers and that was turned down by BC , George has stated in many interviews

Anon - No I dont think so, it was the Tampa douches that did it. The boss was in love with Giambi from the get go and let everyone know it in every NY paper at the time. The @ssholes in Tampa also had their choice between Vlad and Sheff, they opted for Sheff.

Imagine this lineup for the same cost as our current one.

Damon
Jeter
Vlad
A-rod
Ortiz
Matsui
Posada
Cano
Melky

The Tampa braintrust f'ed us on those two deals.

and the Yankee lineup is not????

the Yankee lack of moving runners over is pathetic. If Damon is not in the lineup or is playing hurt then Lead Off is hurt. The Yankees is filled with Streaky hitters and that is bad business if trying to vye on consistantcy

No The Boss wanted Ortiz , and when he was IMMEDIATLEY on waivers and was rebuffed from BC and Tampa his love fell on Giambi who was putting up Mantle like #s

Anon - The Yankees as a team led the league in pitches per plate appearance and OBP. Damon does make it better, but from 1-9 we were the best in the league in both cats.

Anon - I dont know brother. I think we are getting conflicting info on that move. Georgey was all over the NY papers demanding Giambi.

Vlad was not the fault of the Yankees .

If you remember coming out of Montreal word leaked that he was not interested in playing in NY, the mets were the headliners for his services until talks fizzled and he was rumored to go to Balt. which was a fluke , the Yankees were interested during that previous season and envisioned him coming. Word leaked out about NY and Him and the fact he is a Momma's Boy then the Angels stepped in and sweeten the pot.

George summoned for Vlad only when sheff talks went crazy and when sheff came back to earth it was ok. the boss sat with sheff who WANTED to be a Yankee and had the bosses ear through Gooden and that 1st season sheff was a BEAST and when he was healthy he was a BEAST , his RBI leading stats also helped his cause

Both of you is right

credits to Ian O'connor - North Jersey paper

DENVER - George Steinbrenner told Brian Cashman to get David Ortiz. You can rattle off all of Steinbrenner's bad ideas, rewind Ortiz's middling career in Minnesota, and recall that the Yankees had no need for another lumbering lefty in a lineup already suffering a dearth of athleticism and speed.

But none of that deletes this ice-cold truth: Steinbrenner saw something in Ortiz that Cashman did not.

One year after the Yankees wasted $120 million on a steroid-pumped lug, Jason Giambi, Ortiz signed a $1.25 million deal with Boston to back up Giambi's kid brother, Jeremy.

More than eight decades of history tethered to baseball's blood-stained rivalry would take an unexpected detour on those front-office moves.

Theo Epstein landed the Big Papi after Cashman committed the Big Dropi.

That's why the Red Sox are almost certain to win their second World Series title in four years - with another sweep, no less -- while Hank Steinbrenner is still trying to name a manager to make the old man proud. Ortiz has grown into such an omnipotent AL East force, he felt comfortable enough to give Joe Torre a louder public endorsement than the capitulating captain, Derek Jeter, could muster.

It was one of the few times Ortiz swung and missed in the Yankees' presence. After three straight Division Series disasters, Torre received a contract offer designed for him to reject, leaving Ortiz to shrug his shoulders and aim the barrel of his bat in the direction of Don Mattingly and Joe Girardi.

So much has changed since Cashman passed on Ortiz after the 2002 season that his employers are likely focusing on more recent offseason mistakes. But consider what might've happened had the Yanks passed on Giambi after their 2001 World Series loss to Arizona and inspected Ortiz's pros and cons more closely than they did the following year.

The Red Sox would've never paired Ortiz with Manny Ramirez, cocking their own devastating Maris and Mantle punch. The Yankees would've never been anchored down by an artificially-enhanced first baseman who couldn't run, field or throw, and who begged out of Game 5 of the one and only World Series he'd reach.

In five postseasons with the Yanks (he missed 2004), Giambi has 13 RBI. In five postseasons with the Red Sox, Ortiz has 37 RBI. Giambi has been a living, breathing symbol of everything that's gone wrong in the Bronx; Ortiz has been the ever-smiling October face on a franchise forever spooked by a pre-Halloween legion of goblins and ghosts.

So there was no choice for Terry Francona entering Game 3 of the World Series at Coors Field, where National League rules demanded that he send Ortiz, Mike Lowell or Kevin Youkilis to the American League bench. Lowell had to stay at third base, so the debate revolved around a first baseman who hadn't made an error in 1,080 regular-season chances, and a bum-kneed designated hitter who had started 27 games at first over the last three years.

Do you really believe Francona gave even two seconds of legitimate thought to the idea of sitting down David Ortiz?

The man has delivered five consecutive seasons of at least 30 homers and at least 100 RBI. His slugging percentage cleared .600 the last four years, and he just finished leading the league in on-base percentage (.445).

Above all else, Ortiz was the star most responsible for dramatically altering the Red Sox-Yankee dynamic in 2004, his walk-off homer in Game 4 and walk-off single in Game 5 fueling the greatest comeback in playoff history.

The Yankees haven't won a postseason series since. Their southward spiral began before another pair of front-office choices could define the Boston-Bronx reversal: The Yankees' decision to sign Carl Pavano a year before the Red Sox traded for his Florida teammate, a Yankee killer named Josh Beckett.

As wretched as Pavano has been, as much as Beckett has proven that a flamethrowing October ace is a required ingredient in the brewing of a champ, the Giambi-Ortiz moves wrote this tale of two warring cities.

Cashman might not have loved the idea of paying Giambi $120 million, but his offense was dead and he did nothing to stop that free-agent train. A year later, after the Twins refused to tender Ortiz, making all of $950,000, Steinbrenner advised his GM to go get him.

Cashman already had Giambi and Nick Johnson at first, and enough additional left-handed pop on the roster. The GM told Steinbrenner that Ortiz wasn't a good fit, and the Red Sox scooped up the goalline fumble.

Giambi did deliver two Game 7 homers in the 2003 ALCS that was decided on Aaron Boone's bat. But ever since, Ortiz has been the sport's best bargain. To his $1.25 million deal he's added extensions of $12.5 million and $52 million that carry him through 2010. For just more than half of Giambi's price, the Red Sox have enjoyed twice the slugger.

The belly-laughing Ortiz has been part Ruth, part Santa for the Red Sox, who took the early Game 3 lead over Colorado on - what else? - Big Papi's RBI double, a stroke that inspired a six-run third. Ortiz would cleanly field a ground ball and go error-free before Youkilis replaced him in the sixth.

Despite two strikeouts, Ortiz left the game a happy man. The Red Sox held a 6-0 lead, and the Rockies never tested his injured knee and rusty glove with the expected barrage of bunts.

Boston would turn away a Colorado comeback and win by a 10-5 count. The Red Sox wake up today with a chance to win their eighth straight World Series game - the Rockies are showing no more life than the Cardinals did in 2004 -- and to claim their second championship since the Bronx last saw a title.

David Ortiz stands as the chief reason why. He spit into his hands, slapped them together, and flipped baseball's ultimate rivalry on its ear.

Until further notice, the Yankees' world remains upside down.

Do you have a relative on the Tampa board? lol Doc Gooden (related to Sheff) was the driver in that deal. We could have had Vlad if they didnt push for Sheff. The biggest knock on Vlad was his back, that's what scared the Yanks off, not rumors of his disinterest of playing in NY. Bottom line is that the Tampa boys pushed for Giambi and Sheff, the boss listened. Thats why the Tampa boys are cut out of the decision making (aside from Gene Michael and scouting director Damon Oppenheimer ), and Cashman has been given full control.

WOW, I stand corrected on Ortiz. Im holding firm on the Vlad issue though.

In Fall of Empire, the Team Follows Giambi's Lead

By SELENA ROBERTS
Publishe