On the Yankees beat

Merry X-mas Kat and Happy Holidays......

Kat,

Many thanks for your efforts to keep this a good place for Yankees fans to gather and share fan-thoughts! Wishing you safe and happy travels until we meet again.

Fellow fans,

I'm closing down due to house-guest season! Every day from now to the 28th I'll be either having them or being one, so my blogging time will be next to nothing for a while. I hope to check in occasionally, but in the meantime I thank all my 'virtual friends' for all the entertainment, company and information we've shared, and look forward to many future sessions of the same! Warm wishes for the best possible holiday season!!

merry xmas to all....

maybe we will get an xmas present and Hank will actually shut his mouth.

I was going to say Johan, but I know many disagree with that although I cannot see why you wouldnt trade a maybe fo a gaunteed ace.

Also, may be time to start worying a bit with the news that Joba may pitch out of the pen. That means we have to watch Moose pitch every 5th day. I guess I wont be watching every 5th Yankee game. I cant stand to even watch him and eally hoped that the Yanks would unload him to an NL team where he would still have some value. In the AL especially the AL East a right handed junkballer which is what he has become is just brutal to watch.

So my wish list to Santa is the following

1. Johan under the tree without having to give up Kennedy in addition to Phil

2. Someone for the bullpen. Sign a couple of failed starting pitchers and give them a try in spring training. 200 million dollar team and we cant find someone to pitch the 7th and 8th

3. Mark Pior

4. Hank to shut his mouth

5. Cashman to gow a set and to stop treating every minor leauger like they are the next coming of Cy Young

Great point from Viper on the last thread:

Why is it that Jeter will go to bat for any other player on the team including an alleged steroid user, but he wont say anything about ARod.

I know that he doesnt like the guy, but it is his responsibility as Team Captain to stand up for his guys. The more he neglects ARod the more I lose respect for him. How about after the series loss to the Indians saying, " Hey, none of us including me hit anything. Hell Posada stuck out in game one with a chance to change the seies with one hit."

No support for ARod is childish. I dont know what goes on in the clubhouse, but outwardly ARod seems to be a team guy from what he says to the pess. Sure it sounds fake, but at least he ties. More than we can say about Jeter when it comes to ARod questions

Kat:

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you, You have done a fine job keeping us informed and especially as you learned our desires for info. You be safe and enjoy!

The following are excerpts from articles that I believe add to the circumstantial evidence against Roger Clemens. These articles are not difficult to look up and confirm their accuracy as well as Clemens record before and after his stint on the DL.

On July 1, 2000, the following excerpt appeared in a New York Newsday article titled, “Justice, But No Relief/Yanks Bullpen Blows up Again” by David Lennon, “Perhaps worst of all, Roger Clemens lived through a session of hitting golf balls alongside the free-swinging Jose Canseco, who currently is on the disabled list of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. “He’s like one giant vein,” Clemens joked as he described his bulky former teammate. Clemens has spent the last two weeks at the team’s minor league facility working his way back from a strained right groin.”

On July 3, 2000, the following excerpt appeared in a New York Newsday article titled, “A Case of No Strain, No Gain/Clemens Comes Off the DL a New Man,” by Lawrence Rocca, “While rehabbing at the Yankees minor league complex in Tampa, he saw George Steinbrenner frequently. The Boss teased Clemens about having it easy. One day Clemens got to hit some golf balls with Jose Canseco.”

In July 2000, Clemens, in six (6) starts, was 5-0, with an ERA of 1.91, after returning from the disabled list. His prior start was on June 13, 2000 versus the Boston Red Sox when he left in the first inning.

One other thing - sorry for being so verbous, but is George ever going to say anything again? Is he still involved in any decisions. It seems as if he has totally disappeared off the face of the earth and I really miss him.

Best owner in sports histoy who arguably changed the way the sport is promoted - turning players into celbeties and beginning the era of sports being events (sports radio 24/7, every game televised, headlines year long, hell even ESPN owes George a lot

ps - posting is really a pain - i may have to switch to another blog - sorry Kat

On the last thread someone wrote about The English Patient

Well, how about The English Patient Too.

In the sequel there are TWO women in the cave and they find each other and learn how Ralph Finnes was cheating on them.

Would that work?

Kat,

Thanks for all your hard work. Reporting in Detroit during that 3 am game was really great! I hope you have a Merry Christmas!

And to everyone else ... Happy Holidays!

I am in an especially good mood as I've gotten some amazing news of late!

Chris23,

GS has a below average win rate as owner of the Yankees. Check the numbers. He isn't even best winning Yankee owner.

Kat - Hope your Christmas and New Year's are spectacular. I enjoy the blog and the insights. I also appreciate all of the effort in tracking down all of this information and these stories. As you already know, lots of people of reading this every day. Thanks.

Nudge,

Name one active owner with more rings than The Boss. He has six of them.

MLB has changed quite bit since Steinbrenner bought the Yanks. That's not to say he's the reason for all of the changes, but he's part of the reason why the AL is far better than the NL these days.

The dynasty of the late 90s, the high payroll, and revenue sharing have forced other AL teams to spend money in order to compete.

When you have two powerhouse franchises in the same league - the effect on the rest of the league is enormous.

Ant,
Your boy Josh Hamilton was just traded to the Rangers today. I guess we'll get to see a lot more of him.
I never heard of the guy he was traded for so I guess Cincy really wanted to get rid of him.

HOW CAN YOU POST ON THIS SITE?????

I was speaking more about the effect that the Boss had on sports, baseball in particula. He recognized that players could be made into celebeties and the importance of headlines. I feel that much of the hype around sports is due in large part to him. He really changed the way people looked at players/teams/and owners.

Jim A.,

Maybe they were afraid he would try crack again.

Hopefully you will like his arm and bat speed which are the best in all of MLB.

And I hope everyone is having a Merry Christmas.

Reese Witherspoon and I are watching Longitude, a movie about the invention of the at sea clock to measure ... longitude.

It is always fun to keep up with the baseball news!

Oh, and my security code is 554837

Nice to see you Nudge!

Ant

ANT THAT'S CRAZY !!! Jamie Lynn Spears and I are watching MYTHBUSTERS and putting the finishing touches on our Douglas Fur!!

CHEERS!!!

Happy Holidays to all!!!

INCLUDING CHIP!!!! AKA "PACKLEADER"

SHAME ON YOU "BRI" FOR FAILING TO SALUTE OUR SUPERIOR OFFICER!!

=)

PS.

I hate to brag....HAH

r..i..g...h..t...

But to all you golfers out there my holiday greetings are coming live from Ponte Vedra Beach FL at the Stadium Course!!

I'd love some help defending our team and subsequently-my beloved Yankee attire!!

1. I use Calloway Warbird balls special Yankee decal'd

2. My bag is navy and white
3. My FJ dry joys (awesome golf shoes) are special edition Yankee issue

If i could only find a left handed glove with Michael Jordan on it I'd be complete!!!

--Side note....Why does Jeter wear a vintage "Air Jordan" pair of batting gloves??
.....Never could figure that out.

Anyway...

These folks down south aren't too fond of my choice in apparel.

I'm out numbered!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

PS. Jim I live in midtown manhattan if you really are serious about getting together with a bunch of us for a game I'd definitely be on board!!

Tommy Byrne passed away yesterday in North Carolina at the age of 87.

Tommy will go to his grave wearing a Yankee cap. It was his life long dream to be a Yankee according to his son.

Byrne played fo the Yanks from 1943 -51 and from 1954 - 57. In 13 years, he was 85-69. He was an All Star in 1950, but his best year was 1955 when he went 16-5 with a 3:15 ERA.

Byrne was a top hitting pitcher who Stengel would occasionally use as a PH. His lifetime BA was 2:35 with 14 Hrs and 98 RBI's in 601 AB.

While Tommy lived a long and fruitful life, our thoughts, naturally, go out to his family and friends. And all of us on this blog can hail another great and loyal Yankee.

Rest in Peace, Tommy Byrne, another true Yankee forever.

"Jingle bells Pettite smells, Clemens used roidsssssss. The Yankee brass fell on their a^^, and the Red Sox got away... HEY!"

Sing it with me......"Jingle bells................."

PTRS,
You are having trouble finding Yankee fans in Florida? I run into nothing but Yankee fans whenever I go see my brother in West Palm Beach.
Speaking of your golf bag, I was bidding on one of Joe DiMaggio's navy/white golf bags when his estate put them up for auction and I fell asleep as the bidding was about to end and missed one by $30....I was p*ssed!

Have a great time golfing and enjoy the warm weather.
I was dead serious about hooking up at a game so we'll talk about it more as the game approaches, the only other time I may be at the stadium next season is the all-star game, my company promised me a ticket to the game and I intend to hold them to it.

Ant: I always liked Hamilton as a player, I hope he keeps playing well and enjoys his success.

Joba Rules!

Jim.

I am the one that one that bid you feel asleep on. I use it as a urinal while on course. Smells better now that I have owned it!

I found at least three needles in the ball bag section. Didn't know they had roids back then!

WON...sorry, I was laughin so hard I had a yankee brain freeze.

Anon,
No worries, my consolation prize was Ted Williams' head, which I bought on ebay for $65. It's fun to kick it around the yard w/ the kids.

Jingle bells Ortiz likes Fried Chicken, Schilling and Manny used roidsssssss. The Redspx brass fell on their a^^, and the Mitchell got away. with Redsox names.. HEY!"

Sing it with me......"Jingle bells.............

Well ... putting the finishing touches on the all the Christmas shopping. I bought 12 or 13 presents for Reese Witherspoon. She wanted The Endurance (Shackleton ANTarctica expedition documentary) and I wrigged that out of Blockbuster and got them to sell it to me!

I love to give away presents. Christmas is really about kids, but it is so much fun to give! What could be wrong with that?

Went to lift weights ... then got all the food we needed and I will make my eggplant parmisagna ... then Monday morning head to Lakeland where the 80 or so Resse Witherspoon DNA people will be waiting with all their babies and cuties and twins and the rest of the gang!

Also I have a bit of good personal news I wish to share with all of my great friends here on the Blog ... Out of the blue, and it's been a long time coming, I have received an eight year renewable contract offer overseas ... all tax free, amazing pay level -- not that I care about money I don't even own a watch and only own three pairs of shoes -- one of my students, Erin, owns 300 pairs of shoes! -- free housing, health insurance and I only have to teach a few courses in ESL, globalization and Journalism (not teach 7 courses and sub for three others in the SAME semester!) 20 weeks paid vacation. I will help with the university paper.

Additionally, I have been asked to take the students on Journalism Adventure trips to Australia, India, Tibet, Nepal, Burma, New Zealand, Thailand and Cambodia. This scares me a little because I've always been operationally deployed alone overseas in the field. That is an awful lot of responsibility and risk, but then again they've offered me a hell of a lot ... Who am I to say no?

And yes Michael PTRS, I promise I won't get romantically involved, not even with the good looking, naturally blonde coeds who've "been in love with me since last October" and "want (my) gorgeous babies!" (It's hard being Anthony at times!!!!!) Ha ha!

This has been a very very hard year but it is ending on a great note.

BTW, I was asked by a publisher in Florida to write a book about teaching, and I am two thirds done. I really didn't think I would be able to do it (Hughes Your Daddy Criticism) but I did manage to pull it together ... It should be out by the summer. It was a lot harder than I thought it would be. Writing a book means grinding it out, like a baseball season ...

Bless everyone and Merry Christmas!

Ant of Security Code Number 186485

You can make a great case that the commenters on this blog are by far the dumbest on any Yankee blog.

Jim....True or false that Teddy ball game wa the best hitter ever?

False. The Babe will always be the greatest hitter ever.

He was way ahead of his time and changed the game forever.

Best hitter ever?
Tyrus Raymond Cobb.
Look it up.

so let me get this straight? The yankees are giong to watch the innings pitched for their three young guns?????????????/

That means you need a strong relief correct?

please tell me who is setting up for the aging mo ???????????

Well, things really have quieted down this weekend before Xmas!

Kat, thanks for hanging in there with another great article. You've come through big time for us. Mery Christmas to you!

Finally, I'll say it again, I love thinking about the Yanks young rotation in 2008 and beyond. It's an exciting prospect having so many exciting prospects!

Merry Christmas everyone and Happy New Year - and it will be a happy new beginning for the Yanks for years to come!

Best Story of 2007—Red Sox Outlast Yankees...Yet Again

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5255-MLB-New_York_Yankees-Boston_Red_Sox-Best_Story_of_2007_Red_Sox_Outlast_Yankees_Yet_Again-221207

The World Series win was not the news of note in Red Sox Nation this summer and fall—no, it was the continuing domination of the formerly great Bronx Bombers of New York.

Did they really win that many championships, or is it only a figment of their collective imaginations?

Even the foibles of "Give them the game Gagne" sans steroids could not deliver the AL East to the hated interlopers from the south. Speaking of steroids, we all must wonder how good the Yankess really were given the haze of chemistry that filled the club house in the "House that Ruth Built," in the late 90s and early 2000s.

So, we no longer fear the August malaise. And we no longer fear the pinstripes. Even the new stadium cannot bring back their greatness, we lament. That is the big news for those of us who speak with the Southie accent or the West Roxbury twang, who routed for the Patriots when Babe Parilli or Steve Logan threw, who believed in the Celtics of Jo Jo before Larry, and who will always remeber that Jesus saved but Espo scored on the rebound, who recalled that the Bean Pot was the best hockey in the world, and that Paw Sox had the best stadium for baseball in all the world.

Narragansett Lager can be enjoyed again in the backyards of Lowell, and the stands by the Fens and the Sox are even more entertaining than in the days of Yas, the Conigliaros, Foy, and Aparicio.

Sadly, we must wait for a worthy opponent to rise from the Steinbrennerian ashes. In the meantime, we await Master of the Universe Theo's next move

Omg this guy is an idiot. The Yankees won season series 10-8 only lost out by 2 games.

26 rings...nuf said.

Ant Colony could be the most dilusional poster on this blog. I don't even know how to react. I will say Merry Christmas( No X-Mass what are we celebrating here?)and a Happy and Healthy New Year to all.

And please say a prayer for our Troops and all the sick and poor people in the world.

Peace

Hey Newsday, What's with the codes? Are we going to be edited if you don't like what we post? I thought these type of senorship was only done by the Clinton Adminstration or the Soviet Union. Now I will post, please feel free to stop my posting at any time, if you disagree with what I am writing..This is a very comforting feeling..don't you feel warm and fuzzy inside

Ty Cobb played in a watered down talent pool.
You can look it up.

I hate the codes on here...
Oh well.
Have that be the worst problem in my life

It must be sad to call other people's great news a delusion Phil.

You must be VERY unhappy with your life.

May the peace of Jesus Christ enter your heart so you can give love and worth to others.

I'll be sure to pray for you, and our troops, hunting for scrap metal, infected with depleted uranium, women with limbs blown off and the rest of the insane nightmare.

Anthony

Hey there Delilah
What's it like in new York city
I'm a thousand miles away
But girl tonight you look so pretty
Yes you do
Time square cant shine as bright as you
I swear it's true

Hey there Delilah
Don't you worry about the distance
I'm right there if you get lonely
Give this song another listen
Close your eyes
Listen to my voice it's my disguise
I'm by your side

Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
What you do to me

Hey there Delilah
I know times are getting hard
But just believe me girl
Someday I'll pay the bills with this guitar
We'll have it good
We'll have the life we knew we would
My word is good

Hey there Delilah
I've got so much left to say
If every simple song I wrote to you
Would take your breath away
I'd write it all
Even more in love with me you'd fall
We'd have it all

Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me

A thousand miles seems pretty far
But they've got planes and trains and cars
I'd walk to you if I had no other way
Our friends would all make fun of us
and we'll just laugh along because we know
That none of them have felt this way
Delilah I can promise you
That by the time that we get through
The world will never ever be the same
And you're to blame

Hey there Delilah
You be good and don't you miss me
Two more years and you'll be done with school
And I'll be making history like I do
You know it's all because of you
We can do whatever we want to
Hey there Delilah here's to you
This ones for you

Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
What you do to me

It's funny how someone who can't even spell censorship is going to rant and rave about Newsday's right to take measures and moderate their board.

It has nothing to do with censorship. It is essential for all blogs to have a moderator, especially one which generates as much traffic as this one.

I don't like having to type a security code every time I post a comment either, but I understand why they have taken these measures. Spammers were running wild under the old format and taking up a lot of unnecessary space.

Registration would work much better to getting rid of most spammers as well as keeping the vast majority of trolls away.

Also, it would be nice if certain jackasses would leave religion/politics off a baseball blog, but they continue to post their nonsensical diatribes anyway.

Can't respect anyone who doesn't have the courtesy to keep their rants and gibberish to themselves which have nothing to do with baseball.

Viper, my thanks for once again trying to bring a little sanity to the discussion. We can only hope that folks who want to get up on a soap box will find their way to a blog that welcomes them to fulminate against whatever persecution complexes bedevil them - and leave this blog to baseball.

Please! Most of us have to contend with enough trouble in our daily lives and with the world's many miseries without having to face them still again on a baseball blog where we'd just like to talk baseball.

Merry Christmas to you all - and thanks again, Viper, for trying to remind everyone what this blog is suppose to for.

nice name Lanny!!!

I have noticed a curious blog pattern that I thought I would mention just to see if anyone else sees the same.

It seems IN GENERAL (there are always some exceptions) that the same "gang" of posters that take up for AR are the same bunch who don't think giving up Hughes is worth a Santana. That in itself seems odd to me because if you love the "greatest player ever", then you SHOULD also want to have the "greatest AL pitcher".

Then there's the "gang" that want to trade for Santana even if the deal includes Hughes. This gang as a general rule have the more pessemistic view of AR. I would even go so far as to say that these two groups usually side the same way on most other controversial topics as well. Does anybody else see this trend in views? Just wondering.

Anyhow, the real reason I'm on here (if I can succeed in getting my post through) is to wish all of you (my Yankee blog buddies) a very Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and the wish for a Healthy New Year!!! Although we all, at times, disagree on specific issues, we ALL love our Yankees.

Rick - There IS a pattern developing, what does it all mean???

I have something for you ALL to read. Its a SI article on Justin "Joba" Chamberlain. Its long but worth every second spent reading it. I truly believe that if there were more men like Harlan Chamberlain raising kids, this world would be a better place.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/10/03/joba1008/

FYI - I was fighting back the tears on page 7.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!!!!

Rick,
I think I am the exception to the rule you've mentioned above.
I take up for AR, and think he's an all around great player and I wanted him to remain a Yankee, but I also want Santana, even if it costs Hughes. Actually, my true preference is that the Twins hang on to Santana for this season and the Yankees pick him up next Winter. If he has to be traded, which at this point is a must for the Twins, then I wouldn't mind seeing him go to the Dodgers.

Dru- Thanks for the tip on the article. I'll grab a box of Kleenex and read it now.

Dru,
The link didn't lead me to the story, can't find it on SI.com either.

Really? I just tried it again and it worked =

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/10/03/joba1008

What Love's Got to Do with It
Joba Chamberlain has taken New York in a blaze of glory, his success traced to a nurturing father who used his own tortured youth, Native American roots and some lessons in humility to fan the flame inside his son

Posted: Wednesday October 3, 2007 11:36AM; Updated: Sunday October 7, 2007 2:57PM

Try it again, if not Ill post the whole damn thing here! Its that good!

Jim, go to SI.com and put "What Love's Got to Do with It" in the search. On page 4 you will see =

Gary Smith: Joba Chamberlain has taken New York in a blaze of glory (10.03.2007)

That will bring up the article as well.

The comparison between A-Rod and Santana is absurd.

The Yanks didn't have to give up any of their young guns to retain A-Rod. It's going to cost them money and that's it.

There's not much doubt that Santana would already be a Yankee if the cost came down to dollars and not the young talent in return - especially two of their prized young pitchers in Hughes and Kennedy.

Not a valid comparison because A-Rod was a FA and Santana is not.

Dru,
It still didn't work but I found it by searching for Joba Chamberlain, I haven't read it yet, but here's the full link:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/10/03/joba1008/index.html

Not only do I see a trend in the pont of view with AR and Santana, I am fankly shocked by it. Personally, I love AR and think that he truy wants to win in NY and from what we see pubily he is a team player - he stands up for his teamates and makes no excuses fr his poor pay in the post season. Everyone love Jeter for good reason but it bothers me that the Captain refuses to ever say anything good about AR.

As for Santana - we should be a over this guy YEs, Hughes may turn out to be something speial, but you have AR and Jeter in their primes, Mariano nearing the end of his dominane (1 maybe 2 years left of greatness) - same for Posada, Wang entering his prime, Joba looking ike a kid who will suceed immediately and Pettite's final year although I still think he has a ot of gas left in his tank. The time to get Santana is now. By the time Hughes becomes Santana (if he does) these players will be past thei prime.

As for the contract Johan wants - take a look at next years pitchers available - Sabathia, Sheets, Penny, and Lackey (if his option isnt picked up). It is very likely that the market for eite pitchers gets up to the 20 milion a year range within the next 2-3 years. Hell, think about what Bekett will get.

I coud be wrong, but I think that the Twins woud take a package of Hughes, Melky, and Horne/Marquez/Melencon, plus a lower level guy (someone please explain to me why Bettances is untouhable after having thown only 30 proffesional IP and being at leat 3 years from the bigs)

I think this deal is about the Yanks not wanting to give up Hughes, but they are puting on this front that it is the back end guys. If they dont want to do the dea because of Hughes than just say so, but dont tell me that future bak end of the rotation starters are that important when the farm has about 27 bak end of the rotation starters. I don't like the way this is turning out. If they were willing to overpay drastialy for Mo and Posada and give AROD all that money than they shoudl invest in Santana and realize that he is not going to fre agency - why do you think they have not outright rejected the Boston deal yet? That is their fall back plan and if Theo gets Sanatana for a fall back deal than once again, as has happened so many times the past 5 years, he has gotten the better of Cashman.

this posting system needs to be fixed - it is a joke and a rya pain in the a$$

Chris - I understand your point, as I do with all Yankee fans that want to sign 'The Great Santana'. We are not just built for this year though; we are at the dawn of a new Yankee era. Cano, Joba, Phil, Ian, Melk are just the beginning of the new crop of Yankee stars. Our AA, and AAA teams led their leagues in wins this past year. The AA team won the title while the AAA made it deep into the playoffs. No other organization in the league can claim that. What does it mean? It means that the talent level of the minors is very high and is close to being ready. Is also means that there will be a turnover in the Yankee roster within the next 5 years. In 2 years the following players will be gone....Giambi, Matsui, Damon, Abreu, Farny, Andy, Moose, Pavano. Of those names listed above, how many have won a ring? Just the homegrown product, Andy. We built up a dynasty in the 90's with our homegrown talent. Then we got greedy and signed every FA we could get our paws on. Has the method worked since 2000? All the players we signed were cant miss players. How many times in the past 7 years have we heard ESPN or sports radio shows talk about how Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Jason Giambi or countless others were going to put the Yank over the top. How many of these cant miss FA's have we seen the Bronx chew up and spit out? When will enough be enough. Believe me I know how great Johan is, Ive followed him as closely as anyone due to fantasy baseball. We need to stop this madness though. Enough is enough, even for Santana. We tried the ‘giving away young talent and signing the best FA’s on the market’ method already, it hasn't worked for us. Why not give this way a chance? All Im asking for is one year, just for one year lets try and focus on developing our homegrown talent? If it doesn’t work Im sure we will go back to the tired method of bring in more overpriced vets to stink up the roster, I promise.

Kat - I have not had any issues with the new security system.

Dru,
I read the Joba article and it was a great read. Thanks for the tip.

The great Santana debate continues and will continue until he is traded somewhere. I've sort of stated like Chris did, that the best we can hope for Hughes to be is the next Santana and if Hughes were left handed I would probably have even more of a hard time with the idea of trading him but to me that's the final deciding factor. A stud lefty on the mound for the Yanks for the next 7+ years suits me just fine.

Agreed Jim, but this is not a 1 for 1 deal. Listen nobody is going to convince me that trading away Hughes, Kennedy, Melky and Horne or another top prospect is worth Santana. I base this on my belief that there is just no way he can duplicate the numbers these past 4 years over the next 7 or 8 years. I also think that Melk will be a 20/20, +.300 hitting cannon armed CF for the next 15 years. I also believe that Phil and Ian will go on to great things over their career, more so with Phil. Even if it was a 1 for 1 deal and Phil is 75% of Johan, he's still 8 years younger and has much less wear on the arm ( Johan led the league in innings the past 4 years ).

On the flip side I know that I cannot convince anyone that trading for Johan is a bad thing. I mean 4 prospects for the best SP in the league? AND he’s a lefty? AND he’s not even 30 yet? The cards are stacked against me and my brethren big time on that argument. Its like trying to stop an avalanche with a shovel.

Like so many things though, its not as black and white as trading 4 maybes for a definite. Lets look at this another way.

We trade for Johan….give away the 4 guys I listed earlier…sign Johan to a 7 year, 200M dollar extension. 75% of Yankee fans are against the trade; I base this on a Newsday poll that asked if we should trade for Johan or continue with the building from within plan, 75% of the Yankee fans wanted to keep the kids and build from within. On top of that the Yankee GM publicly said he did not want to make the deal. Now that is a lot of pressure going against Johan. Can he live up to that pressure? Maybe, nobody can answer that question. Many players claimed to be ready for the big Apple, but failed. But lets continue with our best case scenario of the Yankees signing him, him being healthy and ready for the spotlight. Now with all that pressure comes great expectations. Johan is pitching against the Sox. Lets say Johan goes 8in…4hits…0ER…12K. Now I don’t know a Yankee fan on the globe that would not be happy with that line. My question for you is how happy? Would it be a feeling of “Oh my god, did you see that game!” Or would it be a feeling of “good, that’s why we paid him all the money and gave away all the prospects, that’s what he’s supposed to do”. Now on the flip side. Lets say Phil is pitching against the Sox, he also has a line of 8in…4hits…0ER…12K. What’s the buzz around the water cooler the next day? It would have that “Oh my god, did you see that game!” feeling to it. Amazing!

Now I know what some responses will be to that statement. “Hey Dru, dummy, The fact that Johan’s line is more of a normal event than Phil’s speaks volumes for Johan. If any lower level SP does that it has buzz.” That's true, but the thing is, it would be our buzz. No Yankee hater across the country could give anything but praise for Phil doing that. To me, that value carries a lot of weight. Now if Phil stinks the rest of the year its doesnt mean a thing. What if though...WHAT IF that is just the start of something great? WHAT IF he figured out his changeup and throws that along with his hammer curve and pinpoint fastball? WHAT IF it was the start or his greatness? The buzz around NY would be higher than any buzz Johan could produce, why? Expectations...its a killer!

I have another question to all the Santana supporters. What if Phil didn’t get hurt in Texas and pitched a no hitter? Who knows what Phil could have done if 100% healthy all year. What if he ended up getting ROY and had great numbers like he did in Sept. Would we be having this discussion? Would Phil be involved in this offer? I don’t think he would. Joba and Phil would be untouchable. Or maybe Yankee fans would be saying trade Joba. My point is that we don’t even know for certain, bad or good, what we have with Phil. Arent any of the Johan supporters at least interested to see what Phil can do over an entire season? I am. I cant wait to see Phil 15 years from now still in pinstripes going for the Yankee all time wins record Don’t you guys think there is something wrong that Ford is the all time win leader at only 236? Or that the Yanks only have two guys with 200 wins?

Ford = 236
Ruffing = 231
Gomez = 189
Guidry = 170

We have a chance to have our own 300 game winner, not just getting one at the tail end of his career, but a true 300 game winner from start to finish. A player that will be called a “True Yankee”. Will Johan ever fit under that cat? He would need to win the CY Young and WS every year of his contract to be considered a “True Yankee”. I think the opportunity to have a Yankee legend from start to finish is worth the risk of taking a step back in 08.

Im sure people will spit back fire from this post because it assumes much. Again, try to remember that I am throwing rocks at an Abrams tank; I have to swing for the fences. You guys have all the stats in your favor, Im trying to give this issue a different spin. There is more to being a baseball fan than W’s and L’s. My dream is that Phil lives up to the expectations and 15-20 years from now I can bring my son to the game and tell him about Phil Hughes, the all time Yankees Win leader, the guy we almost gave away.

It doesn't make any difference how many games Hughes, Joba, or Kennedy wins during their respective careers.

If this team wins a couple of rings with this core of young pitching over the next 5-7 years, their Yankee legacy will always be strong no matter what kind of numbers they have at the end of their respective careers.

Scott Brosius is considered a great Yankee because this team won rings with him. The guy had one great season in 1998 and the rest were mediocre.

BTW, that "True Yankee" debate has always been the dumbest argument in the history of dumb arguments.

Anyone who puts on the pinstripes is a Yankee until he puts on a different uniform.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/12/23/cccrisis123.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox

The above article is from the UK Telegraph, one of the major papers in Europe. It quotes and speaks of emergency measures the Fed might have to take vis a vis our worsening financial state in the US and Europe. The title speaks of how the coming financial crisis will "make 1929 look like a walk in the park."

What makes this article scary (for intelligent people, not for idiots who will call it a "rant" because they can't face this ugly reality) is that it quotes heavy hitters in the US Central Banking system, the Fed and EU financial gurus.

Our wealth is being sucked to Asia and the UAE ... and the bedrock of our banking system has been infected by the subprime debacle. No matter how much money the Fed and EU Central Banks print up, it will only get worse.

That's terrifying.

Americans will be woken up one way or another. The financial elites quoted in the article give the crisis a matter of months.

For the Yanks it means no Santana and trimming the fat.

I agree with the "True Yankee" fallacy, but we cannot ignore it. Fans will continue to say it. Im sure half the people in here would not call A-rod a "True Yankee", I think thats a bunch of crap. He is a "True Yankee" and will be one for the next 10 years no matter what.

I think you're wrong though Viper on saying it doesnt matter how many games they win. It does matter what they would do over their career. Did anyone care that Mike Mussina won 250 games? Did anyone really care that Rocket won 300? It was nice, but everyone knew most of that was on other teams, and many of those wins were actually against the Yanks. Having a legit 300 game winner, all in pinstripes would be a huge deal in NY. If you dont think so then you're not paying attention enough.

Legacy's are linked to championships, no doubt. But what about the 1 year assassins. Does anyone think of David Justice as a Yankee? No he's a Brave, or even more so an Indian. He won a WS with the Yanks though. Late game heroics on the postseason will bring players fame and make fans love them. Scotty was so great in the postseason, even won a MVP. If we keep the kids and win a couple rings with these guys, they will have a place in Yankee history. Now if they win a couple rings and also stay healthy enough over their careers to reach 237 + wins, they could be considered one of the greatest Yankee pitchers ever! Now that is assuming A LOT, and would be a looooooong way from now. What Im getting at is the opportunity for that to happen is something for all yankee fans to get behind.

The best case scenario for Johan is that he’s on the Yankees for 8 years and lets say for arguments sake we win 4 WS.
The best case scenario for Phil and the gang is to win 4 WS over that same period of time.

Which do you prefer? Both scenarios have the Yanks winning 4 WS in 8 years? So which one? To me it’s a no brainier; the WS wins with our kids would be tremendous. Instead of all the Yankee haters saying we bought another championship with Johan. We can shut them all up by showing we can do it with our own guys.

Again, just giving the debate a different spin without repeating the same information I have been posting the past couple weeks.

So go ahead…take your shots…Im an easy target on this subject. It still wont make me change my mind, nor do I expect to change any of yours. I want to help out the fans that say “I just dont understand how we do not make the Santana deal”, understand the “keep the kids” side. I mean if Cashman is not doing the deal, he has to be thinking about these types of scenarios right?

I've been paying close enough attention in recent years and you proved my point regarding Moose.

He has almost 250 wins but no rings. Yankee fans look down on him because of it.

Which brings me back to my argument regarding the kids. If they help this team win rings, their legacy will be cemented in Yankee history no matter how many career wins they have when they retire.

Check out the past seven years, nobody cares that this team hasn't missed the postseason since their last championship in 2000. It's all irrelevant in the eyes of many fans because they haven't won rings.

It's all about the rings. A-Rod knows this first-hand.

Nobody cares, Anthony. Really. Nobody cares.

Dru,
I admit I skimmed over some of your post(s) but I know where you are coming from but I've stated before that the breaking point of a deal for Santana is Kennedy. The last I read was that Minnesota had backed off their request for Kennedy and were willing to do a deal for Melky, Hughes, Marquez and Horne. Sorry, but I'd do that deal in a minute.
I love home grown Yankees, but at 28 years old, in time and like Viper says, with a ring on his finger, it would feel like Santana was a home grown guy.
To me Hughes is just as close to being Todd Van Poppel as he is to being a great Yankee pitcher. That's the big worry, what if he bombs? What if by this time next year young Mr. Hughes has finished the season at 5-12 w/ a 5.58 ERA and he isn't fooling anyone? Well then the Yanks have passed a great chance to get a bona fide Cy Young stud lefty for him....it's a crap shoot to say the least.

Viper - the Moose point was that he didnt win 250 with the Yanks, which would have made him #1 all time, thats why nobody cared. I realize that winning rings is the only thing that really matters in the kingdom of Steinbrenner, but a ring plus milestone marks will move the young guns from heroes to legends.

To everyone....

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/news/top50/y2008/

List of the top 50 prospects for the entire league. They didnt count Phil due to his innings. Pretty cool little breakdown of them all with videos.

#5 - Joba
#26 - IPK ( MiLB minor league starting pitcher of the year, he's not just some throw in player for Johan )
#49 - Austin Jackson

Jim - you're right brother, it is a big time crap shot. His value is very high right now. Look what happened to the Mets with Miledge. They could have traded him for Oswalt 3-4 years ago and for Zito 2 years ago. They waited too long and ended up with Brian Schneider...lol. It is a very risky proposition. Im a gambler though and love to press my luck. My biggest fear is that Phil lives up to the hype and ends up burning the Yanks for the next 20 years. I do understand your points though...

I'd be happy with Kennedy and Joba in the rotation - there's your homegrown affiliation road to glory. Santana - a lefty - in Yankee Stadium where he has dominated - to lead the surge. I think trading Hughes and assorted haven't-made-it-yets (to include Hughes) for an established star is the no-brainer. No Yankee World Series was won without at least 2 lefties in the rotation. Yes, there is plenty of talent in the suddenly successful Yank minor leagues and, yes, we'll see the lineup changeover to new exciting youngsters (we hope), but yet, it's all a crapshoot.

Santana has a better shot at being good over the next 5 years than Hughes does. Because He's Been Good Already And He's Young Enough (not a Kevin Brown or Randy Johnson fecal event) To Continue To Be Good.

And hell, I don't care if Hughes stays, but I'm getting a bit tired of the RSN arrogance and Santana would do more to eliminate that.

Well, this is why I come here all the time. The Hughes/Santana debate between Chris 23, Jim A, Sexrox et. al and DRU (holding the fort on the 'don't trade Hughes side all alone) is an interesting and intelligent discussion with everyone making excellent points. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be in Cashman's shoes right now, because this decision (to trade or trade not) has to be excrutiating.

I fall on DRU's side of the argument for precisely the same reasons as DRU, recognizing, as does DRU, that our antagonists are debating with the statistical upperhand.

Chris 23, you say that it may be years before Hughes reaches Santana's excellence, yet is there not a possibility that he could even win 18 - 20 games as soon as next year? If I recall correctly, there have been pitchers who have won that many in their rookie year. Had not Vida Blue, Dwight Gooden, Mark Fidrich and Jim Boutin (just to name a few) done that? (agreed, Big Bird and Boutin may be poor example because of their subsequent injuries, but I believe their are others - I'm too lazy to check!)

If Phil did win that many next year, even if he's still not as polished as Johan right now, would that lack of polish matter?

Kennedy could very well do as well himself.

Again, it's a pleasure to read the posts in this very 'civilized' debate. As Jim A says, it will continue until Santana is traded. And I do agree that it would be a blow if Santana got traded to the Sox - especially irritating if it's for a lesser set of players than the Twins have demanded from the Yanks.

In the final analysis though, as I've stated before, I prefer to keep Hughes, but I'm cool with a trade that included him (but not him AND IPK) if Cash and especially Michael are on board with the idea.)

Merry Christmas and Joba Chamberlains to all.

Somehow , someway I figure this new blogging system out. I have not been able to comment for about 2 days. The system indicates security code error or frequent blogger. Hello!, I can't post. So, I'll try something diffferent.

The market for Santana has suddenly gone sour probably because the Twins have requested one time to often for more product in return. Sometimes the trade thatbyou didn't make is the best one.

DRU: Excellent posts, very intelligent points. Very enjoyable reading. VIPER: Excellent points also.

Hughes and Santana cannot be solely responsible for winning a World Series. It's a team thing. When you build from within, you have that special bond and inner support system. I feel we should focus more on forming a cohesive team than building a lineup of individual superstars. I'm leaning more towards keeping Hughes for that reason.

What else is so special about Hughes? He's the ONLY pitcher who won a game for us in the playoffs. But more than than, he came in to relieve Roger Clemens and was successful. This is a big, big deal. The guy wasn't expected to pitch but he came in and proved he can produce under pressure in a big game setting.

Something tells me that even