On the Yankees beat

Extremely tough decision. Cash obviously panicked when he heard the Red Sox rumors.

Giving up Hughes was inevitable, it's who we give up with him that will determine the winner of this deal.

Hughes, Melky and Tabata would be tough to swallow.

Don't trade anyone.
Santana is a great pitcher, but what will it cost to sign him?

Hughes, Kennedy and Chamberlin can turn out to be the next Palmer, Cuellar and McNally. And for the near future alot less expensive as Santana.

Good Luck Kat in winter meetings in Nashville.Yes The Yankees have to do this deal to prevent Redsox going after Johan.

What kills me though is that the Yankees are competing with themselves on this one.

The two other teams that can pay Santana what he wants are Boston and the Mets. But the Mets, especially after dealing Milledge, don't have near the chips needed.

The Sox WILL NEVER include two out of the three big prospects, Bucholz, Ellsberry and Lester. And they don't need to. They've won 2 of the last 3 World Series and as it stands already have the best starting rotation in the world.

Everyone knows the Sox got involved because they didn't want Hughes haunting them for the next ten years. Everyone except Hank and Cash.

Even if the Twins keep Santana until the deadline, nothing will change. The Dodgers, Mets etc. still won't have enough money to offer a record contract to him.

And unless Schilling eats himself or Dice-K breaks down, the Sox will not have to go against Theo's theology of building young and cheap.

The Yankees should wait until the deadline, trade Kennedy, Melky and Brackman/Horne/Sanchez/Melancon and sport a

Santana
Pettitte
Wang
Chamberlain
Hughes

rotation. Maybe by then Austin Jackson or at least Bret Gardner will be ready for callup.

I am very upset over this latest developement and feel that it is not a sound baseball decision. Hughes put up decent numbers in 13 starts last year, even though he was not 100% physically. In addition he pitched exetremely well in the playoffs. Hughes/Cabrera/ and another prospect is just way too much for a pitcher that will command $20+ million a year. Also, was this really Brian Cashman's decision or was he overruled by the clueless Steinbrenner children? Cashman has a much higher baseball IQ than both these men and they have no right to influence key baseball decisions.

usuuall yankee fan and management panic move. I do not trade Hughes and multi prospects for no one.. we hear the usual I do not do this move for anypne except Santana we have been hearing that garbage for 10 yrs.

we will regret this move, scholars Hughes is a 21 yr old stud, pass....

let Boston trade 4 guys for santana(it will never happen).

I cannot believe the panic of yankee management....

I can't believe the Yankees are making another panic move either. Hughes has the potential to be as good as Santana some day, and he's 8 years younger. Let him stay a Yankee.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: where has this Win At All Costs approach gotten us this decade? Absolutely nowhere. Some of the fans I've been reading on this board need to chill and let a year or two without a championship go by while these young guys develop. It will be an investment that will bring us 6 or 7 championships down the road.

"We see Santana trending down in the last few years (still very good, but no longer great) and looking for what - 6 -7 years?! In two - three years time Santana will no longer be a very good pitcher but rather just a good pitcher, and by the end of his contract perhaps just a fair pitcher. Meanwhile Hughes has some 6 - 7 years before he's even Santana's present age and he will have already been a top of the rotation stud for several years.

Long term contracts (whether bestowed on a pitcher by trade extension or FA) are deadly dangerous (see Garland, Gullett, Pavano, Hampton, etc. just as a start.)

Sure, Hughes could blow out his arm next year or so could Santana. But while it would hurt losing Phil that way, it would hurt far greater to lose Santana in that fashion, because in that case the Yanks would be losing Santana, Hughes, Melky, and who knows what other valuable prospects. "

Santana since 2004 -

Hits - 156, 180, 186, 183

Runs - 70, 77, 79, 88

HR - 24, 22, 24, 33

S.O. - 265, 238, 245, 235

ERA - 2.61, 2.87, 2.77, 3.33

Whip - 0.921, 0.971, 0.997, 1.073

ERA+ - 182, 155, 161, 130

Yes, I overstated it by saying he was only very good rather than still great, but the point is that as good as these figures still are, they have certainly trended down in the last four years. According to several anaylsis that I've read, the trend is likely to continue. The HR totals last year in particular are somewhat alarming. But even if in one year he's winning 18 and Hughes 14, are we really willing to give up on Phil four a four game difference?

There's no crystal ball necessary. The fact is that, as good as they may still be, those figures are a clear trend and not some nebulous numbers.

Again, I'd rather risk Hughes 'bombing' because the Yanks losses would be far less than Santana bombing. If Santana doesn't cut it in NY, the Yanks not only have lost their gambit on bringing him to NY, they've also lost Hughes, Melky and who knows what else in the bargain.

But frankly, as much as I dislike the idea of being 'bum rushed' into this deal by the Bosox playing games, I do have faith in Stick Michael and if he is a strong supporter of the move (and being pefectly honest with Hank), than I guess I would have to just hope that Michael's judgement is still every bit as good as it has been in the past.

I also can't believe the Yanks are doing this. I really feel like the Yanks think they were stung by : 1) not paying the price for Pedro; 2) letting the Sox move quickly acquiring Beckett. Both of these moves were key in the Sux getting titles. This does seem like the old days all over again, trading away the farm for the hottest player right now. This saddens me as it appears the Yanks have learned nothing.

Scott and others, why do you care how much it will cost to Santana? Do you think that the Yanks will knock on your door and ask you to chip in? Do you feel like this will bankrupt the team? I still haven't heard one person tell me why they care how millionaires choose to spend their money. They are green pieces of paper and I'm convinced the Yanks can print the stuff if they want to. Hughes, on the other hand, players with his potential don't come around every day. ....

This is my first post on here but I read all the time. The thing about the Santana deal is that at first I was all for it because, well I couldn't care less if we parted with Kennedy(although he did quite well) Melky and a prospect because you have to give to get. The part I don't like is how much you have to give to get back. Although I drool at the likes of Santana donning a Yankee pinstripe jersey, I was quite fond of the young and aspiring Philip Hughes. As much as I want Santana here its tough for me to look at Hughes and feel that we should just let him go along with other good players and $150 million. In 3 years we will be paying the Twins more to reaquire Hughes. Scary thought...

Yanks at present are rich in TWO things.

Money and pitching prospects.

Only an idiot makes decisions based on what the Red Sox do.

You spend what you have to get what you don't have.

Simple, actually.

they can wait a year and throw 20 million a year at sabathia or peavy and keep their prospects. like always yankee management will do anything to be better next year. However, 90% of the real yankee fans that are into this stuff in December want to root for their homegrown guys.

What the yankees should do is throw 20 million a year at epstein. the bastard is a genius. Cashman and the steinbrenners iq combined couldn't match his and it has shown for the last half a decade. just sickening...

Santana will be great for the next 3-4 years and hughes will be great too. However, the red sox will get sabathia or peavy next year and keep their prospects.

Keep Hughes, Cabrera and the prospect. Its too high a price to pay for a superstar pitcher, unless they throw in Nathan. Hughes = Santana, soon enough. Keep the Big Three!

I'm for it. Santana is a proven pitcher who is still relatively young. He is a sure thing. Hughes is not. Besides getting injured last year, he struggled with his pitch count in every outing. Yankee fans are getting obsessed with the Yankee minor league prospects but that's just what they are....prospects.

Even if Hughes turns out well, with the trade we have Santana, the Twins have Hughes and the Red Sox stand pat. I'll take that over the Yankees standing pat and the Red Sox getting Santana to join Beckett, even with them giving up Lester.

One commenter wrote that you have to be an idiot to make decisions based on what the Red Sox do. I think you have to be an idiot to ignore them. That's how business worth. Decisions made in a vacuum are doomed to fail.

I love Melky but I have to face the fact that he is replaceable.

As I said in the previous thread, Hughes should have been "the kicker" to the Yanks very last\final offer. Now, the current Hughes package can only grow, resulting in extra talent being lost. Trying to 1up Boston for Santana, and negotiate with Minn., has been compared to a chess game. To be successful in chess, you must anticipate your opponents next several moves. There is no anticipation in throwing Hughes into the negotiations at this point. The Twins now know how desperate Hank is to acquire Santana, and will parlay this knowledge into making the Yanks "pay through the nose".

Get a grip everyone ... as much POTENTIAL that Hughes has he would have to be everything everyone was hoping he can become AND THEN SOME to be Santana!!! We're talking about JOHAN F-IN SANTANA here folks!!! The single MOST DOMINANT pitcher in MLB over the last 4 years. He is 29 years old in March. HE WILL CONTINUE TO DOMINATE THE LEAGUE FOR THE NEXT 4 YEARS AT LEAST. After that, he will still be in the TOP 10% of ALL pitchers in the majors. There are currently TWO dominating lefties in ALL OF BASEBALL (Santana and Sabbathia) and Sabbathia is a WIDE LOAD. As great a pitcher he might be, he looks like he's eating his way to a disaster and I wouldn't touch him.

Guys and Girls ... wake up and smell the coffee here. As much as I'd like to see Hughes develop w/ the Yanks I'D MUCH RATHER HAVE THE 100% SURE THING!!!!

Yanks rotation in 2008: Santana, Wang, Pettitte, Chamberlin, Mussina (yes Moose ... he will have a solid last year of his contract and I LOVE HIM as a #5 starter. Can you possibly name a better 5th starter in the majors???). Give Kennedy another year at AAA (he rocketed thru the Yanks system) and let him get even more confidence and get better. Plus, Kennedy (along w/ Igawa) will be decent options if someone gets hurt.

Yanks rotation in 2009: Santana, Wang, Chamberlin, Kennedy, Horne or White or Sanchez ... or maybe we grab a FA like Peavy and really throw out an absolutely SICK rotation: Santana, Peavy, Chamberlin, Wang, Kennedy .... WOW!!!!

One more point ... if we trade Melky I'd make a BIG TIME RUN at Andruw Jones ... BUT .... offer him a 2 year contract only!!! How about 2 years and $30 mill??? Check this out ... Jones desperately needs to rebuild his value. He's off a down year and ABSOLUTELY NO TEAM IN MLB will offer him the 5 years and $90 mill that Hunter got. ABSOLUTELY NO WAY. In 2 years he will be 32 years old (same age Arod is now) and if he performs he's still looking at another contract for 5 or 6 years at roughly $20 mill per year. If he doesn't, he'd still command a 5 year, $50 mill contract based on his defensive ability and HR potential (certainly not chump change).

Benefit to him ... 1) he plays the last year at the "old" Yankee Stadium and the first year at the "new" Yankee Stadium (seriously, as a ballplayer, wouldn't that be somewhat appealing to you?) 2) he hits between Arod and Posada for 2 years ... ummm, can you say steady diet of fastballs??? please, even Betemit could crush the ball hitting between those 2 for the next 2 years 3) if he performs, Yanks would more than likely be at the front of the pack to extend him ... w/ Damon, Matsui, Abreu off the books in 2 years couldn't you envision an OF of Jones, Austin Jackson and Tabata in 2010??? That would be sweet. 4) he gets the chance to be the next great Yankee CFer in a long line of them 5) he still pockets a cool $30 mill in the next two years (not exactly austerity)

People are missing the point. It's not about giving up Hughes -- it's about the fact that they don't HAVE to give him up. They've been pressured into putting him in the deal for NO REASON. The Sox won't part with Jacoby Ellsbury or Clay Buchholz -- so why in the world do the Yankees feel like they need to include Hughes? Why did they cave so quickly?

There are only two teams in this because of Santana's contract demands: the Sox and Yanks. The Sox are offering Coco Crisp, a player they want to get rid of (who's making a bit of money), and Jon Lester. THAT'S their offer -- and it stinks. Ian Kennedy, Melky and Tabata is a better deal. If the Twins want to play tough and say they won't trade Santana unless Hughes is involved, then you stand firm and see if they reduce their demands. You don't just cave. I don't believe Cashman would react so quickly.

The Yankees aren't using the leverage they have: that Santana wants so much money and that there's not a better offer out there. They seem to be grabbing their ankles and giving the Twins whatever they want. Now the word is that the Twins might ask for Hughes AND Kennedy. I hope they do -- so maybe the deal falls apart.

The Yankee championship years showed that pitching depth is more important than one ace. Right now, the Yankees have that depth. They should leave it alone and let things play out.

And stop worrying about the finances of these things ... Yanks will have one year (2008) that will be frightening from a $$$ perspective. After that, Yanks will be fine. Check out this article from Ken Rosenthal:

After the Yankees shed several expensive contracts over the next two years and open their new ballpark in '09, oh boy, the fun will really begin.

After next season, the Yankees can reduce their payroll by $64.5 million if they part with Jason Giambi, Bobby Abreu, Mike Mussina, Carl Pavano and Kyle Farnsworth.

After 2009, they can create an additional $26 million of flexibility if they part with Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui.

Granted, the Yankees will need to replace most of those players, pay Robinson Cano at a higher rate during his arbitration years and re-sign Derek Jeter after 2010.

But once they combine their new ballpark with the YES television network and a suddenly productive farm system, they perhaps will be a greater monster than ever before.

The Yankees are now mimicking the Red Sox — Evil Empire II — by developing young talent with frightening efficiency. Their vast resources also give them an edge in the amateur draft and especially the international market. The young talent balances the Yankees' payroll, increases their trade possibilities and potentially creates further distance from their opponents.

There's a third way--don't trade for Santana. There's no proof the Red Sox are seriously interested. And if they are, let them have him. This is so much hype. Phil Hughes has as good a chance to be good for us as Santana and the Yankee fan wouldn't be asked to absorb over $100 million. Santana is no lock in the post season, couldn't get his team out of the ALDS. Like many others, he just wants his big day to cash in at the expense of the Yankee fan.

regardless of the $$ issues, i think its a poor decision to trade a kid who has been groomed for years for this job as ace and just toss him along with several other prospects for a single player who gave up 33% more home runs last year than his previous 3 years.

Hughes was league average with a 89 mph fastball and an average curve because of his hamstring. Imagine what his biting plus-plus curve and full 96 mph fastball will do.

Only part with Hughes and Melky if no outfield or pitching prospects are required to seal the deal.

Johan has plenty of life in him. At 28, being a lefty, and having a dominate pitch (change-up) that does not require over straining of the arm he has plenty of years left. A lot of pitchers do not even reach their full potential until their early 30's. Both Johan and Hughes have chances of becoming injury problems so that should not be an issue.

This move will also involves making the Yanks go out and grab a center fielder to replace Hughes. Something they need to do and they need to make sure they only sign them to a 2 or 3 year deal.

SM avers:

"Phil Hughes has as good a chance to be good for us as Santana"

NO, HE DOESN'T. SEE MANY EARLIER ENTRIES ON
PROBABILITIES RE: ROOKIES EVER WINNING EVEN 100
LET ALONE REACHING JS'S LEVEL OF SKILL.

"and the Yankee fan wouldn't be asked to absorb over $100 million"

NYY FAN ISN'T BEING 'ASKED TO ABSORB' EXTRA $$$.
MY TICKETS ARE NOT GOING TO BE CHEAPER IF WE
STAY WITH PH THAN IF WE GO FOR JS.

Is there an emoticon for grinding teeth?
Please, people. Just be up front about being in love with Phil, or with the idea of Yankee babies. Most of us can respect that. Just don't bring in these completely bogus arguments.

In case no one else has posted this before, please visit:

http://riveraveblues.com/2007/11/29/save-hughes-save-joba-save-ipk-save-the-future

These guys make the case I couldn't.

The future is bright. We only need to have a little bit of patience.

The riveraveblues link has been posted 40 or 50 times, as well as that particular item being extensively excerpted here.

riveraveblues is a nice blog but like any other its items are fairly perishable goods.

Can't wait to see this blog in mid August when Santana is 15-5 w/ a 3.08 ERA for the Yanks. Then EVERYONE will be so happy we have him. Or how about this .... what if he's on the Sox w/ the same stats off a series where Yanks struck out 42 times in a combined 3 game set vs. Boston against Becket, Santana and Dice-K. Man, we'll have people impaling themselves at that point.

I hope Hughes does well. very well. But the odds say that Santana's stats will be WAY BETTER than Phil's over the next 3-4 years at the least. I can easily live with that.

So what if Santana is on the Soxs! BIG DEAL! They already won 2 world series in the last 4 years. Can it get much worse? The Yankees need to realize they are bidding against themselves here and if Minny is really that stupid to send Santana for a overpaid outfielder and a decent pitcher at best then let them make that move. We already saw what buying talent has brought us in the last 7 years. Hank needs to stop being a child that needs that new toy in the store. We should backoff and keep developing pitching talent. Hughes pitched very well in the playoffs and there is no reason to give him up. This is the typical Yankee way of trying to buy the best of everything. We don't need Johan. We need to retool and rebuild via the farm system and screw what the rest of the league is doing. But we are the mighty strong Yankees who will never come out and say we need to rebuild because we are just to good for that. Screw youth when we can buy the world.

I love the people that say, "let's go get Peavy or Sabathia after next year." Quick, name the last dominate starter in his prime to hit the free agent market? The last one I can think of is Pedro, and it's a different world now with luxury tax money. If anyone on this board thinks those guys will hit the market, you're fools.

Susan, your post was stupid. Please try harder.

Bri, I understand your point. My concern is the almost 900 innings he has thrown the last three years, his declining numbers this last season, and his two sugeries he has had since 2004. My concern is that the whole nucleus of this team will need to be rebuilt in 3-5 years, including the staff. Including multiple prospects does not help this cause. I guess it comes down to those who believe prospects should be dealt to win now versus those of us who want to build from within....

Yes, AJ, it can get worse. 3 out of 5. 4 out of 6. Three in a row. I am in the "you don't gut your team because of what the Sox might be doing." If our guys do pan out, we'll have the staff to compete with the Sox, even if they got Santana.

Leave Susan alone. she has a right to her opinion

The Yanks should NOT get Johan.

We can't afford him. Not with the economy on the fritz.

And all the prospects ... it's just too much.

What if Johan gets hurt?

Even if we get him and Bedard or Scotty K goes to the Red Sox it is a wash. Bedard can win 20 plus with the Red Sox I think.

A lot depends on how you view Hughes. I have never seen him pitch up close in person. Is he another Tom Seaver? If so, keep him. Trade Carpenter, Brackman, Betances ... offer bulk and use quantitiy to offset or enhance the quality of the deal.

With Lilly and or Pettitte on board we would be in much better position.

But if Boston won't give up Ellsbury or Bucholtz, and they MAKE THE RIGHT decisions most of the time (letting Damon go, Beckett, Schilling, Oki, Mice K, Ortiz, drafting Pap) then I would think "should be give up Hughes." I think Hughes is better than Bucholtz.

Anthony,

1. Everybody including the Twins thinks Hughes is better than Buchholz. And that affects our Santana situation just how?

2. Nobody is shopping CostCo here. Bulk is not a substitute for quality. The fact that YOU would like to get rid of quantity instead of quality has no bearing whatsoever on the market for talent.

3. We would be in a better position with any number of guys that are not presently 'on board' -- Babe Ruth, Guidry in his prime, and many others I could name. And that affects our Santana situation just how?

4. Any of the moving pieces can get hu...

...oh, never mind...

Sheesh...

Susan, pipe up anytime, there's nobody here that we all agree with but nearly all of us welcome diverse opinions ... even as we are busy promoting our own viewpoints ... ;-)

michaelz,

It would be so much better for the discussion if you explain where you disagree with Susan than if you just label her opinions as stupid.

Besides it would be less likely make the rest of us feel bad about the fact that at least ten percent of our opinions are probably stupid, too, -- at least in someone's view.

I say that having disagreed strongly with her opinions, too, by the way. But I explained why.

That way she knew what arguments she needed to blow away in return!

I want to know who's decision it was to put Hughes in the package; Hank or Cashman?
Right now I am assuming Hank because it seems like a dumb baseball decision to me.

You guys are right. IN addition to what's posted above, the "he hasn't won anything with his team" is the dumbest argument yet. One dominate starter does not make a world series champion. It requires at least two others, a good pen, timely hitting, and a degree of luck. Is that better?

And yes, she's entitled to her opinion. I'm entitled to label it as stupid, as others have of my arguments. I didn't call her stupid, geesh!!

It seems as if Hughes isn't the only of the "big 3 " that is being offered............

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=279

I just scanned Klapisch's ESPN.com column on Hank the other day, and didn't read it all the way through until today. Interesting quote in it from Hank:

"Corporations run better when the guy running the company has a big financial stake. Outsiders are the ones who don't do much, bail out and then take the golden parachute."

The column was about his increasing (and Cashman's decreasing) visibility, but the statement is really about why Hank thinks having an owner be active is a good thing. He seems to be saying not just the Steinbrenners have a hands-on style, but that it is a conscious management philosophy.

This makes a slightly different impression on me than the 'he just loves the limelight' take.

Hmm.

Thanks, Realist, for the link, I like to see the baseball columnists on the 'other side' of the deal.

Down in the body of the comments the guy does hedge on his statement about both Hughes and Kennedy being involved, though, after being challenged by a couple of his own commenters.

Oh, and about Santana's performance against the A's...he only pitched in one game and lost 3-1. The Big Hurt touched him up for two solo jobs. So, I don't think it's accurate to say "santana couldn't get them out of the first round."

don't do it. live and die with the homegrown.

From the perspective of a professional astrologer and Yankee fan I would not recommend the trade for Santana.

He is going into very hard transits for the next 3 years which will be very difficult for Johan...mostlikely he will miss major time due to injuries. Mr. Cashman please keep our young talent and be patience!!! Let the Red Sox trade away their young players.

Interesting how, as the possibility of a trade for Johan seems to get closer to reality, the comments on the blog seem to swing from being worried about its NOT happening to being worried about its happening.

I don't know whether their is some butterfly->tsunami connection here...

I think Sully's analogy on the previous thread said it best. He compared Santana to a million dollars and Hughes to a lottery ticket.

I have waited and pined for Hughes for a long time but if it costs the Yanks him, Melky and a lower tier prospect, I guess it's time to make that deal.
All you can hope for in a prospect is for them to turn into one of the best at their position and Santana is THE best at his position.
The Yankees will find a capable replacement for Melky and they have plenty of pitching in the minor leagues so it's not like the Yanks are completely cleaning out the farm, they're well stocked and sometimes you use parts to trade and get yourself better.
Let's hope Kennedy turns out to be a good one...oh and that Joba guy too.

Let's all get real here for just a minute. Did anyone really believe we could aquire the best SP in the AL with some type of secondary package??? Santana is 28, LH, a PROVEN AL pitcher (not another one of those NL guys), and a 2 time Cy Young winner. He IS the cream of the crop in SP and we need him! Basically giving up Hughes and Melky for him is not such a bad deal.

And, while Hughes is a top notch "prospect", personally, I think Joba is more of the real thing and I am glad we get to keep him. I would be more upset if we had to give up Joba. And, like I've said before, IF Hughes does pan out to the max of potential, is he really going to be as good as a Santana??? Top prospects are just that, and probably 1 in 5 actually turn out to be good ML players. They are a gamble, an unknown quantity. Santana IS the REAL DEAL, a known quantity, and the BEST in the AL.

We need to make this deal AND to get Pettitte back for 08 too. Then, we would have a WS staff. Another thing to keep in mind going with a staff of younsters (see the big 3) is that the Yanks are not going to let any of them throw 200 Innings. They will all be monitored and babied along for the next couple of years. So, just where are we going to get the innings from if those 3 are all in the 08 rotation??? This deal is not as bad as most of you are making it out to be.

Jim A

Sully's analogy summed it all up perfectly! Basically, he asked would you rather have a certified check for a million dollars or a lottery ticket. Which would you choose? I'll take the check every time!

I'm in favor of getting Santana, but Hank's negotiating skills are nil. Boston now has the opportunity to beat the Yankee offer. If that occurs, the Yanks either lose Santana or are forced to throw even more young talent into the pot. Hughes should have only been placed on the table in a "take it or leave it", last\best package. The Twins either take that offer or the Yanks walk away. It's that simple.

Yeah, but if you can acquire Santana and keep Buchholz, how can you not make this trade. The present and the future are both taken care of. Lester is good, but is very unlikely to be an ace type pitcher even if he works out his pitch count/WHIP/control issues (that is a big if). I've heard others reference that Johan's best years are likely behind him. Would you give Beckett or Papelbon a 6 year deal after this year, that's no different than giving Johan a 5 year deal, he is one year older than them, not some old worn down pitcher who is losing MPHs on his fastball. Are Beckett, Dice-K and Papelbon on the downside of their career after 08? Elite pitchers have been aging better and better in the last decade or two with more emphasis on strength training, limiting innings, and nutrition. Elite pithers have been extremely productive into their late 30s and early 40s in the last decade, 35 is much older for a hitter than a pitcher these days, and not something I'm all that worried about. He wouldn't be the first player who had their productivity slip below their salary toward the end of a contract, it happens all the time in every sport (even in football, but to a lesser degree). Who thought Lowell would get a 3 year extension for more money per year, when the Sox acquired him?

Lowire is a decent prospect, but he has very little to contribute while Lugo is here (if he can play short in the majors at all). I don't think Pedroia or Lowrie has enough range to play SS in the majors, unless they had enough pop in their bat to make up for the lack of range. So basically, he has no permanant spot on this team. Ellsbury is better than Coco, but it isn't the landslide people make it out to be, his OBP and BA will be higher, but they are more similar than people give him credit for. Don't get me wrong, I would take Jacoby everytime, but if they have one of the greatest pitching staffs of all time, and a top 3-5 offense in baseball with Coco, I'm not all that concerned about who is playing CF, or the AAA insurance guys. The Red Sox farm system is set up extremely well to contribute next decade when the replaceable guys are set to be replaced. If Ellsbury and Masterson were a part of a thin farm system I would worry more, but this organization has a lot of potentially great to ML average young talent in it for the 2010s.

The Yankees will be much better in the forseeable future with Johan, and I don't want to hear any of you bitch about the Yankees beating the Red Sox the next couple years. I wouldn't want to play that offense in a 7 game series with Johan, Wang, and Joba starting 6 of those games, but that's just me. As good as Beckett is, I'd think that Santana outduels him 40-60% of the time (coinflip), I'd take Wang as of this moment over Dice-K (we'll see how he adjusts/consistency), though I think Buch will be better than Joba, I can garuntee you Schill starts game 3 for Francona next year because he's done it before, has the experience, etc.. If the Yankees win the WS next year, it will be worth a whole hell of a lot more to them than Hughes, Melky, and the other prospect they throw in there. The Red Sox goal should be to win the 08, 09 and 2010 World Series, and Johan gives them the best chance to accomplish that goal in my opinon. With Dice-K and Buchholz as your 3rd/4th starter, and Papelbon as your closer, I'm not as concerned with Coco in the lineup if no one can score on us.

I think it's too early to worry abut 2011, there is way too much that can happen between now and then, and who knows where our current and future prospects (signings/drafts) will be doing for our team/depth by them. Again, if Buchholz isn't in this deal, I make it every time without hesitating all that much. The money/budget crap doesn't mean much to me, I typically go to Fenway twice a year, so the ticket prices and payroll are fine with me.

If the Sox see a player they want to pay big money too in the future, they will have to resources to do it, Johan's 150 million won't change much for them. It's not like the Sox have been a bunch of homegrown guys the last couple years, there have been a few sprinkled in, but I think that trend continues. Pretty much 2 players per year from the system. Buchholz and Ellsbury were pretty much September callups this year, but it is hard for a position player to get a spot on this team. In 04/05, Youk began to emerge, in 06 no new homegrown guys got a lot of AB, in 07 it was Pedroia, and it would have been just Ellsbury in 08. In 04 there weren't really any young homegrown pitchers that played a major role on that team, in 05, Hansen and Delcarmen really struggled to gain consistency (let's not forget that Hansen was projected to be the closer by 06), in 06 Papelbon was phenominal, Lester got a couple tightrope 5 inning wins, and Hansen was in AAA with DelCarmen still struggling with consistency. In 07, Lester had a moderate impact, and despite the no-no, Buchholz impact was minor at best, and DelCarmen finally gained a permanant spot. These homegrown players have had no where near the impact that Manny, Ortiz, Schilling, Wake, Beckett, and Tek have had over the last 4 years.

Roy,
The Yankees have not, to my knowledge, offered anything yet. The word is out that they are leaning toward offering Hughes in the deal, and I'm if Hughes is in the deal, it is a "take it or leave it" scenario.
I think if the offer is Melky and Hughes and a lower tier prospect, I don't think it will get any better than that and the Yankees would be right to walk away.

Somebody above said that Joba, Hughes and Kennedy could be Cuellar, Palmer and McNally but the higher probability is that they could end up as Isringhausen, Pulsipher and Wilson- with only Izzy having a decent career.

Hey, the Yanks should just whisper in Hughes' ear that when he's a free agent they will bring him back.
I feel sorry for Hughes though if this happens as he seems to really enjoy being a Yankee and I know Melky will be broken hearted but it's a business after all.

Enough already if I read another article about Santana and who the Yankees are offering I'll blow my lunch. Ambivalent are my thoughts on this trade. I could go one way or another. It just depends on the article but Santana guarantees nothing as far as the playoffs.

I could watch kennedy, Hughes and Joba with no problem. Hughes will be throwing in mid 90's next year because the hammy and ankle will be fully healed. So we shut them down to rest the arms and keep the innings down. They will be a significant and consistent upgrade over the other guys that we had throwing for us. I don't mind Santana but the price just seems a bit high. I'd walk away from the table and let the water level subside and hope for a call back. I don't care if the Red Sox's get Santana. I'll still root for my Yanks and I'll enjoy the development of the young guys. I didn't favor Clemens signing. I'm starting to dislike this trade.

I respct everyon's opinion who favors this trade and the loss of players. You guys maybe right and I'm wrong but the Twins are driving the market and the Yankees are which way did he go.

What the scouts are saying regarding Santana has caught my attention and it seems like he would be the pitcher the Yankees really haven't had since Roger Clemens circa 1999/2000.

And, regardless of what happened in the playoffs, Wang is still a 19 win guy in the regular season. Santana, Wang, Mussina, Joba and Kennedy (with Karstens and Rasner waiting in the wings) would be a rotation most teams would love to have.

I'm still not convinced, though, that Melky should be part of the package unless there's a secret plan to bring Bernie back. Centerfield is a tough position to fill. Over the grind of 162 games, having a lousy centerfielder would really hurt.

DEAD ON POST Rick. And leave it to a Sox fan to set us straight (good post Red Sox Fan) .... guys it' soooooooo simple ... stop outhinking yourselves.

Hughes = PROSPECT = POTENTIAL = LOTTERY TICKET

Santana = BEST PITCHER IN MLB = SURE THING = $1 MILLION TICKET

I'd love to keep Hughes but it takes quality to get quality. It's as simple as that. Don't worry about the finances ... the Yanks (w/ YES and new stadium) are there own mint.

LET'S GO GET THE MOST DOMINANT LEFT HANDED PITCHER IN BASEBALL!!!!!!!!!

I respect Sully's opinion because he's one of the few Red Sox fans who actually makes sense from time to time.

That said, it's not the greatest analogy because every great pitcher who has ever played this game was "unproven" at some point in his career. Joba was “unproven” until he got his chance to pitch and he dominated.

That "unproven" argument has never made any sense. The Twins are very good evaluators of talent and they certainly think Hughes is a special kind of talent because they won't trade Santana to the Yanks unless he's involved in that deal.

Here's something else that the backers of this trade don't realize the domino effect that can and almost will happen.

I personally don't really care that much about Melky, but losing him will force the Yanks to make another deal to replace him in CF. I’m fine with Damon going back to CF (his lack of an arm is overrated because how many centerfielders in MLB have great arms? Not many.) because he can track balls better than Melky. Melky was NOT a great outfielder. He makes a lot of mistakes and takes bad routes to the ball. He simply young and has a great arm - which is why people view him as far superior to Damon.

However, I don’t think the Yanks will keep Damon as their CF - which means they could very well chase Rowand or Jones and sign one of them to another nonsensical long term deal. Does anyone REALLY want that?

That would prove this club hasn’t learned a damn thing from the last few years and taking on bad contracts, which leads to more payroll inflexibility. The team can’t get younger over time by continuing to sign these kinds of players in a bad FA market.

The smart thing to do is build this team for long term success - not just 2008. Keep Hughes and Melky and evaluate the Trinity and the next round of young kids in another year. They will also have a lot of money coming off the books (Giambi, Farnsworth, Moose, Abreu, etc.) At this time next season, they will be a much better position to determine what these kids can do for this team in the long run and would be able to spend their money much more wisely with a significantly better FA market.

Going for broke to win in 2008 because the Red Sox won last season is not the way this team should be building for long term success. Winning in 2009 - 2014 is just as important, in fact, more important, than winning in 2008.

STOP CRYING YANKEE FANS! We will be fine! The Yankee payroll will be fine! I'm, as ever, very proud to support a team that puts there resources on to the field. This is NOT a small market team! They can afford to have Santana & A-Rod on the payroll & still fill the holes in the bullpen or whatever else is necessary. & as for Hughes let us not forget he is a prospect which also means suspect. Now if we had to include two of our big three like the Red Sox or Dodgers do I might also protest but this is why a team has depth in there farm system. So when the right move comes along you have the chips to strike. Let's not forget about Betanchez, Sanchez or Brackman still to come and we would still have Kennedy whom nobody should sleep on. Bottom line Chamberlain, Santana & Wang (not in that order) can go toe to toe with any big three in the game let alone Boston's Beckett, Schilling & Dice-K. WE NEED THE BEST STRIKE-OUT LEFTY ACE IN THE GAME!

Larry M.,
The Twins aren't necessarily driving the market in my opinion because there are factors that leave only the Yanks and a few other teams in the race to acquire Santana.

1. Not many teams can afford Santana so they're not even in the discussion. Check that, a lot of teams can afford him, they are just too cheap to pay him.

2. Santana's no trade clause. He has a full no trade clause and I'm sure he'll exercise it if he's traded to somewhere he doesn't want to go.

The Twinkies would be in a much better position (like the A's will be with Haren) if they could open up discussions with EVERY team but they're limited and that's why I feel the Yanks have to use this opportunity to get this deal done.

Buster Olney is reporting that the Yankees are NOT close to signing Mark Loretta as previously reported. He says the Yanks talked to Loretta a month ago but were never really interested in him. He also says that Loretta may sign with the Rockies soon.

Aaahhh.....a whole post that doesn't mention that guy from Minnesota!

JIM A-
There is a progression to trade negotiations of this magnitude. The Yanks should have offered a package containing both Kennedy and Karstens, and if that was refused, countered with their "take it or leave it", last\best offer substituting Hughes for Kennedy and Karstens. This approach would have made the Twins think they had "manuvered" the Yanks into giving up Hughes. Now that it's public knowledge the Yanks will part with Hughes, this strategy will not work, and the R\Sox know what the Yanks next move is. Hank "talks" a good game, but has much to learn.

Roy,
I think the Yanks were just honest with the Twins by saying they had real reservations about including Hughes and that they absolutely would not add Joba or Cano to the mix. They threw out some ideas that didn't include Hughes and the Red Sox offered a better deal so the Yanks jumped back to the top with what is going to be their best offer. The winter meetings will be busy and maybe the Yanks and Twins are both just as sick of talking about this as we are so they want to just get all the cards on the table and get something done. I think it's time to call the Red Sox bluff if they are indeed bluffing. The Twins should say they have a deal w/ the Yanks and go for it and if the Sox decide to include Ellsbury or Buccholz then the Yanks can just walk away and go talk to Oakland about Haren.

Viper,

I too respect your opinion even when I disagree with you... kind of like now.

I'll retort, but keep in mind I'm not saying you are wrong... just we are coming at it from different points of view.

OK, disclaimers are taken care of.

I personally would send Buchholz AND Ellsbury off to Minny for Santana.
And I find it incomprehensible that Hughes would be an insurmountable hurdle for Santana.

I wouldn't say that for Haren. Nor Blanton. Nor any other pitcher currently breathing oxygen on the planet Earth.

Santana is special. He's a "write it in ink" Cy Young pick every year and he won't celebrate his 30th birthday until the 2009 Spring Training.

A "down year" has him among the league leaders in every category.

And yes, every pitcher, including Santana, Clemens and Walter Johnson were unproven at one point.

But that seems as relevant as saying "every pitcher was once a toddler."

Santana IS proven. He's more than proven... he's put together a resume that seems about half way there to a Cooperstown argument.

Pitching wins championships... and Santana is the best pitcher.

And I hate to say it, but Joba is NOT a proven pitcher... certainly not as a starting pitcher.

He has as many Major League starts as Bea Arthur.
He pitched great down the stretch and looked like he might have potential ace stuff.

So did Rich Harden for the 2003 A's.
Try getting Johan Santana for HIM now!

For my boys... yeah Jacoby Ellsbury was electifying and had big World Series hits as an unknown rookie.

Does that make him an irreplaceable star?

Or does it make him Ricky Ledee... who also lit up a World Series (1998) as an unknown rookie?

Sometimes you've got to sell high.
And the Twi