On the Yankees beat

Speaking of Giambi's injury - it is good to know that the curse of Joe Torre vs. Relief Pitchers lives on - The Rockies just put Luis Vizciano on the DL with a sore shoulder.

So, for those keeping score:
Steve Karsay
Paul Quantrill
Ramiro Mendoza
Graeme Lloyd
Luis Vizciano
Tanyon Sturtze
Tom Gordon

Any wonder why, with the Yankees opening an era of young arms, that they decided it was time to part ways with Torre?

Good luck to Scott Proctor, Jonathan Broxton and the other Dodger arms - though it might be smart for them to check out flights to Birmingham, AL (where James Andrews works) just in case.

WOW..thank God I wasn’t around for the "Gameday 5 Live: Yanks-Rays" thread. There were a couple logical posts, but for the most part it was like a dozen blind apes in a sh!t throwing contest. For some reason I kept thinking about Adam Sandler in Billy Madison as I read the posts...

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Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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Let’s get back to baseball....

- The bats are still ice cold. The Yanks can’t buy a hit with RISP and may lead the league in LOB. Look for that to change once the weather starts to heat up.
- Looks like Cano might be breaking out of his mini slump.
- Matsui, see above.
- Wang looked to be in mid season form.
- Wilson B made a couple nice plays at 1st.
- What a difference in the OF when Melk is in CF and Damon is in LF. Matsui and Giambi are going to be splitting A LOT of time at DH in the next few months.

Now for the other games...

Friday

Ian got hit around, won’t be the last time. Try and be patient people ( and I don’t mean 1 week ), this could be a long year for Ian as he makes adjustments. Again, he 23 years old and has a total of 149 minor league innings under his belt. Who knows, he could be below average the entire year..maybe even next year as well. Some SP's bloom late in the majors, especially soft tossers like Ian that pay dearly for missing spots.

I like what I saw from the ( non #21 ) pen. Albaladejo, 4K and 1 hit in 8 outs. Ohlendorf and Traber were also perfect. Like I said before, I hate Hawkins and it kills me that he's on the team while a young stud like Scott Patterson is in AAA. I know the Yanks needed to sign a vet RP, but Hawkins has been in the AL East before and failed. In unrelated news, Luis Vizciano is on the DL.

Saturday

Andy is still rusty, I think he only threw a dozen or so Spring innings. Give him a couple more starts before casting judgment. Shelly may be worse than Giambi at 1B. Wilson and Ensberg should be the primary options while Giambi gets better.

What I liked in that game was Bruney and Ohlendorf, 4 innings...1 hit, no BB. The young guys in the pen have all been solid so far. IF they continue on this path, I will throw a party at the end of the year when Farny and Hawkins are gone!

WRAP

So the Yanks are 3-3...wwwwhhhhhoooooppppeeeeee. That’s called sarcasm kids. With 156 games left in the season, there is a LOOOOONG way to go. This isn’t a sprint, it’s a marathon, and we just left the gates. The Yanks have 3 wins and Joba has a Hold in all three. Oh god, I can hear Mike Lupica and the rest of those short sighted writers now. KEEP JOBA IN THE PEN!!! I don’t agree with that statement what so ever. I don’t care if by July 1st Joba was involved in 50 Yankee wins; he needs to go to the rotation. The other young guys in the pen have been pitching well and can fill in. There are a couple things the Yanks need to find out before the end of the year.

1. Can Joba be as effective over 7-8 innings as he is over 1-2 at the MLB level.
2. Can he handle 100 pitches every 5th day at the MLB level.
3. Can another RP in the pen handle the 8th inning duties ( not Farny or Hawk,,,,the young guys )

On top of that Joba NEEDS to get his innings up this year. If not then the Yanks are in the same boat next year with this half RP half SP garbage. Like I've said on here a thousand and one times, we know what Joba can do late in the games....we need to find out if he can be a starter. That means getting his innings up this year, so he can go 150-170 innings next year as a starter, then 180-200 innings in 2010. Why is 2010 so important you say? Well that’s Mo's last year in pinstripes. If Joba has not proven to be a frontline starter by 2011, then he's the Yanks closer. In the mean time we have guys like Ohlendorf, Albaladejo, Melancon, Cox, Sanchez, and Brackman to prove that they can or cannot handle the 8th and 9th innings duties. Again, only one way to find out if those kids have what it takes...throw them into the fire.

I agree with Jim A that this is a transition year. Giambi, Moose, Pavano, Farny, Hawkins, Bruney, Andy, Abreu...could all be gone in 09. That means the Yanks need to find out which kids can play and which ones are trade bait. I could care less if the Yanks missed the playoffs this year, hasn’t done anything for us since 2000 has it??? Having said that, I do think that this Yankee team can win it all. Did anyone think the Cards could have won it a couple years ago? Compare our talent level with that team. ANY team can win a WS, and since I’m a fan of a certain team, I THINK that can win it all. Sure there are better looking teams on paper like the Tigers (hhmmmm), Sox, Angels, Mets...whoever you want to throw out there. All those teams have holes on the diamond SOMEWHERE. Even if they don’t, the Yanks of 01-07 didn’t have too many holes and they won squat.

So before we live and die with every win and loss, just remember...even if the Yanks won 100 games...there will be 60 losses. I would say the Yanks will have between 60-70 losses, most won’t be pretty.

No matter how many times Ian or Phil or Joba get hammered…no matter how many slumps Melk and Cano have…no matter how many bumps in the road our young pen faces…..no matter how many times the Sox sweep us in a series…no matter how many games behind the Sox and Jays were are come July 1st…..We cannot sell out this year for a ring, we need to stick to the LONG TERM ( no not long term as in the July trade deadline, long term as in 3-5 years ) PLAN.

I will be on here all year long preaching one thing…..Big picture guys...big picture.

johnny damon & joba - 2 observations:

1) damon seems to have really gotten old, and most alarmingly - i'm no pro scout - but it seems that his but speed slowed down severely. note the amount of fly outs he gets off fastballs down the middle - a clear sign he can't catch up anymore.

i'm pretty sure we'll see gardner leading off later this year, via injury or by design. his power is very limited, but if he can generate an OBP of around 350-400 at the major league level, he's the ultimate lead-off, as his walk is equal to a double due to his light speed.

2) question - when he's on - have you ever seen someone with better stuff???

the aybar at bat today was just illegal. 77 mph curve for a strike, 97 mph fastball for a strike on the corner, then a wicked slider for a swinging strike. what's a hitter to do? you have to respect the heat (and when he paints the corners with 97-99 mph, it doesn't if you're barry bonds all juiced up, you can't touch that), so you lay off the curve and assume he misses with it - then he brings the drop-off slider. really, what can you do?

also, think of the energy boost joba+mo give the starters. all you need to do is go 6-7 innings, even maintain a one run lead, empty your tank, because you know the door's shut. wang got 2 wins already due to that combo by a total of 3 runs... hughes enjoyed it too.
oh, and if you get roughed up we send in farnsworth and hawkins... if that's not motivation enough for the starters...

Hey, baseball is being discussed!

Who'da thunk one of the nicest things to talk about in the first week of the season would be the bullpen. No, not Joba, not even Mariano -- the likes of Traber and Ohlendorf and Albaladejo??? And we have Patterson to look forward to, because I cannot and will not believe that he is going to be left to rot.

LOL Gil L at your idea of threatening starters with sending in the stinkers if they let themselves get smacked around... ;-)

Does anyone know if Meacham sent Betemit on that play where he was thrown out at third or did he do that on his own? I was screaming at the TV "no, stop, don't run, stop!!!!" but Wilson didn't listen. I hate when that happens.

I found it funny that Damon hugged Tony Pena when he got to first base after his broken bat blooper. I enjoyed his sense of humor and it caught Pena so off guard that he just started cracking up about 45 seconds later.

Nice job by Wang today. Someone said they wondered if Cashman regrets not giving Wang an extension this winter and I'd still say the answer is no. Nobody was sure if Wang was healthy and the Yanks can afford to be patient with him but I'd make sure they get something done if he keeps pitching this way, and soon!

It'll be a lot easier to sleep tonight with a win under the belt.

I was wondering the same thing about Meacham. He was sending evryone during spring training. Bad choice by him or Betemet. I thought there was some unwritten rule about not making the 1st or 3rd out at 3rd base? I aslo caught the Damon/Pena hug and was wondering what was up with it.

Jim, I was doing the same exact thing. My wife thinks I’m crazy for shouting at a TV..lol. I can’t say for sure, but on the replay, it seems like Wilson never looked at Meacham.

Gil, Im with Diane, that cracked me up.

Diane, how about that pen???? So far so good, fingers crossed.

Funny...no Mets or Sox trolls lately? I pull for the Mets (except when the play the Yanks of course) so I don’t mean them any ill will, but you guys have to hear the Mets fans calling into the FAN. A week into the season and the sky is falling…HILARIOUS!!!!

DRU, I'm so used to worrying about the pen that I'm starting to feel a little funny here...

...something's missing...

...but in a good way!

:-)

I know right, its almost as weird as.....

Kei Igawa retired all 18 hitters he faced, striking out seven of them, Thursday for Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre.
Yeah, Kei Igawa. He threw 60 pitches, 44 for strikes. The Yankees intend to call up a long reliever at some point in the near future, and Igawa could be the choice if he keeps this up.

Talk about Twilight Zone! What the hell was in that Tampa bullpen Kool-Aid????

how the hell is the Pen is good when fonz and Hawkins is crap

Jim -

I think Betemit went on his own. Generally when the play is in front of the runner (meaning the ball is in Left or Left Center) the runner will make the call - if the play is behind him (Right or Right Center) it will be the coach's job to hold the runner or wave him in.

Obviously you don't like the first or third out at third - but in this case I don't have a HUGE problem with it for a couple of reasons:

1. Upton didn't play it cleanly.
2. Upton hasn't played a ton of CF and so they tested his arm. Only way you're going to find out if someone can throw you out is by taking a chance.

Dru,
That's why I asked if anyone knew if Meacham sent him. If Meacham sends him, based on what I saw in spring training, I start to worry a little. If he went on his own, I guess it's okay for a guy who is not playing every day to try to make something happen, but when the offense is fighting for runs, that's just not a smart play.

Steve: Damon hugged Pena as if to say "It's been a long time since I've seen you". I think Damon's only other hit's this year have been doubles and you can count them on about two fingers I think. At least he has kept his sense of humor.

I mean Dru and Chip above, I was respoding to both your posts about Betemit's out at third.

Well, DRU wrote the longest post ever ... I will have to read that later when I have more time. It's like a magazine article. Well done!

A few quick notes:

Jim A., I can humbly tell you my friend that I live in a beautiful, brand new high rise, in a huge apartment with security that would make Jason Bourne blush. There is no crazy aunt in the basement ... as far as I know. My neighbor is from Iran and it the author of "9/11 Made Easy" and was the producer of "Allah McBeal." Actually he's also a professor ...

Viper, you can call me a 2 year-old, but not a 13 year-old!

Delancy, I see you are not going to take any nonsense from these guys! And do come forward with that IP address so our troubled child Viper can finally find peace!

Nudge, do I have to bring you to the Lindenhurst Village Museum myself?

Now for the baseball ...

Yes, Patterson, and even Mr. Igawa will be back.

Farns is not so good this year again ... The NY Post (with all the journalistic integrity of a Bazooka Bubble Gum strip) reported that he wears headphones all the time in the clubhouse.

Clearly he does not want to be there. What's to talk about? "Hey Andy, saw you and Laura on TV at the Congress thing. Sorry your dad got dragged in." "Hey McNamee what did you think when the police carted off your 'date' half passed out to the ER?" And "Hey Leyritz, did you really leave the scene of the accident after murdering that poor woman with the two kids? Why can't you be more like Tony Larussa?" Or maybe "Hey Mel Hall is coming, hide the teenagers, quick!"

And again, how can all of these players talk in Spanish, Japanese, Taiwanese and English? It would be nice to speak all of those languages but it would take years just to learn Japanese. There are 50 words for "no" in Japanese alone! Sheesh!

Diane has been teaching me Spanish for a year and I am still nowhere near fluent! Es una pena! Que puede hacer?

Anyway, all of that said, yesterday's game was a good win, the kind they needed. I really don't know what to think of the team as of yet.

I know the Cardinals won't be very good but Ankiel will be a 30-30 man ... I know it's ironic that the Budwesier owned team had to ban beer in their own clubhouse, and that Richard Gere showed up in the Yankees clubhouse while Tibet was on fire.

I am still wondering if Carl Pavano or Jim Leyritz should drive the team bus?

Well, we're off to a mediocre start but my thoughts are the weather is frigid and tough to play the game. This is evident by the Yankees anemic hitting. Throws by Jeter are all over the place whether completeing the DP or straight on play. Cano's brain seems to be frozen, I wish Bowa, the volcano was around to wake Cano up. Meacham looks a little laid back for me. We are an older team so I believe this aspect of our play will get better as the weather warms.

It seems the team has already ID A starters and A relievers and B starters and B relievers. You can gather the two groups just by 6 games of play and the sooner the Team moves to change the B guys to B+ then the wins will become plentiful.

Giambi injuries are just the start of a season which has 60 day DL written all over it from my view. Hopefully, Betemint gets a shot at playing firstbase. He'll hit when given opts. and he's the smoothest guy that we have fielding at first.

As always, the erudite, handsome and baseball savvy savant Larry M. of Florida fame brings up excellent points ...

But can we bring up Patterson and eject Hawkins or Farnsworth?

Can Cashman eat all of the wasted money?

Farns
Clemens
Igawa
Giambi
Damon
Et al ?

Why is Giambi still here? Steroids bring on long term health problems. He was very sick a few years ago and is in great decline, sad to say. The day he signed with the Yanks his brother (as reported in Newsday) was arrested for drug possesion in Las Vegas, which was a bad omen. (That's where A Rod's lover lives! I mean, his friend the pole dancer whom we saw on the cover of the NY Post ...)

Anyway ... Larry my friend, with all due respect I think it was cold for BOTH teams. Tampa is young and tough and hungry and they aren't going to be pushed around. You put Sheilds and Scotty K out there, and a healthy Percival (whom Cashman wanted but could not sign) then you have a very, very good team.

Cano and Melky are not polished enough. There is no leadoff man. We can't count on Godzilla, Mosse, Farns, Igawa or Giambi.
We can't replace O'Neil with Abreu. We never replaced Knoblauch. We lost the Mendoza-Stanton-Nelson trio.

The team (again to say) has no team ethos, no identity and they just don't look hungry.

How hungry can Jeter and A Rod and Jorge and Giambi be with a hundred million in the bank each? It's just human nature. I don't see the fire I saw between 1995 and Mo's error in 2001.

Let's face the truth: We layed down like dogs on 02 vs the Angels, the 03 Marlins would have swept us if AJ Burnett was healthy, the 04 Sox collapse, then the Detroit disaster, another Angels wipeout and then the Paul Byrd incident last October.

I want a young, tough, hungry, clean cut, All Yankee, All American team. I'm not getting that for the US$ 1.2 billion. I want someone tough like Sheffield. I want someone hungry like Brandon Phillips who won't take any crap. But I am not getting that. Can we trust Wang in the playoffs. (I like him, he's good!) But isn't there a cloud over the poor guy now? Why can't we get Kevin Gregg and either Jeremy Sowers or Cliff Lee? Why not? Why couldn't we land Percival?

Instead of the best team money can buy, I'm getting steroids, HGH and a dead woman in a DWI wreck, a clubhouse hug for the killer, an MLB autograph signing for the SAME killer, McNamee's gal pal rushed to the ER, a teenager hitting a Grand Slam in a college game off of 46$ million Igawa, the Toronto night club, Matsui on a cane, no sign of Brackman, no righty bats, no lefty arms, Congressional hearings ... bla bla bla ...

Ultimately the on field and off field behavior is on Cashman. He allowed those people through the door. Character matters no matter what Viper (a very sad and lost person) says otherwise.

Theo Epstein single handedly stole our dynasty: He got Schilling, Oki, Mice K and Beckett and Ortiz.

We got Irabu, Igawa, Pavano, Vasquez and Giambi. Add Brown in there. Granted I would have signed Brown, Vasquez and Giambi as well.

We've lost NIck Johnson and three All Star pitchers in Jake Westbrooke, Contreras and our good friend Ted "15 wins for 10 K" Lilly ... Cashman's trades aren't very good anymore.

This is all very frustrating to me!

The team is about exploiting 16 year old Caribbean youth and building a fan base and financial stream in East Asia.

We've tried that and lost our dynasty.

It's time to get back to the basics that made this team and this country of ours so great!

McCarthy,

If Giambi goes down for a while I guess we will see if your Duncan prediction stands a chance or not!

If you view the AL East standings it reads as a mirror image of what the October 1 standing should read.

Also I see that SF is already 3GB so that dopey Math Professor who's analysis had them 10 out by the end of the year is looking really silly now. But I state the obvious.

w/ Albadejo
Veras
Patterson
Britton
Ramirez
at Scranton
and
Melancon
the Yanks
will be forced to move Hawkins in the not so distant future.He's got a 1 yr 3.2 mil contract so I'm sure it won't be too difficult.I don't really see the justification for keeping him around.

Giambi hurt ."Deja Vu all over again"

Ruse -

I agree that Hawkins likely will be gone by July (as might Farnsworth). Both, at this point, have moveable contracts and we saw last year with Mike Myers that the Yankees are willing to eat those deals if the players are ineffective.

Funny line from today's NY Post: Kyle Farnsworth is as trustworthy as Eliot Spitzer with time on his hands and money in his pockets.

The article was an interesting one on the Joba starter vs. Joba reliever debate. Once again, just to make my position on the matter clear. I am all for Joba being a relief pitcher this year. And if Rivera were leaving soon I wouldn't argue with keeping him in the pen. But to have Joba as a set up guy for the next three years to me seems a waste. Especially if some of these other young pitchers who don't have the assortment of pitches that Joba does, show an ability to thrive in the pen.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04072008/sports/yankees/matter_of_jo_mo_105331.htm?page=1

Ruse:
I agree Hawkins and Farnsworth should be moved and a bold move by the front office to bring up Patterson, Alfabet and Veras in this order. These guys cannot do any worse than Hawkins and Farnsworthless. 7 runs and 8 hits in one inning from guys making 8 million a year. Please no mas.

Ant: The Yankees are hungry to win make no mistake about it. Yes, the weather is the same but its not the same for an older team. Its not an excuse just what it is when the Yankees were playing well in the 2nd half last year the weather was the same for both teams. Its not about their desire to win.

It takes longer for the older car th warm up.

Let me guess....he should be traded to.....a national league team....right?

Nudge

Actually I was thinking that Detroit might have some interest in one or both of them depending on the health of Rodney and Zumaya - especially if the cost is nothing more than a couple of warm bodies. Farnsworth still throws a plus fastball - there will always be some manager/pitching coach who will say "I can fix him."

Another possible destination would be the Mariners depending on the health of JJ Putz.

But - I did also say that they could be bought out. Which remains a strong possibility.

Chip

Detroit seems the obvious choice .Man are they reeling right now.I knew Detroit's pitching staff was a bit overrated w/ no dependable middle relief but this bad ? Last night's game I thought Verlander would come up clutch but Wow ! 6 games to make up in the win column w/ the season barely a week old.

Why would teams that showed no interest in Hawkins when it cost them only salary now be interested to trade a player for him and pay the Yankee rate for him? It doesn't make any sense. Usually teams that need help.....are looking to acquire players that CAN help.

I find it interesting that the sole off-season move by Cashman is already viewed as the problem they need to solve. This only 6 games in.

I'd like to see Hawkins and Farnsworth gone before the season ends, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Like others, I think Farnsworth has a better shot of getting traded to the Tigers because he pitched well for them a few years ago and Rodney and Zumaya are going to be out for awhile longer.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid both will be wearing pinstripes all season because even desperate teams know garbage when they see it.

Ruse -

If there is a positive for Detroit fans to cling to it is that no one is running away with the division and the two teams in the lead right now (Chicago and KC) won't be relevant come July. Essentially it isn't a six game hole to climb out of, it is the three games they trail the Indians by that they need to deal with.

Here is why early season is not something to get caught up in: The two world series teams have a combined 4-9 record and are in last place in their divisions, the Marlins, Royals, Orioles all lead their divisions.

AJ Pierzynski and Jason Kendall are the batting champs through week 1.

Ben Broussard and Xavier Nady lead their leagues in HR

Frank Thomas and Xavier Nady lead their leagues in RBI

Xavier Nady for NL MVP.

Nudge -

I believe I twice said that the more likely scenario would be that the Yankees would release him if he was ineffective down the stretch. He has made two appearances - one good one bad - a little tough to judge him just yet. I think the point that was being made was that IF Hawkins stinks come July and IF Patterson, Veras...whomever...are blowing people away in AAA then it would make sense for the Yankees to move him and/or Farnsworth.

As for why a team would show interest in a player in July vs. December - you're smart enough to know the answer to that. Someone gets hurt and a team finds itself with a need in July that they didn't anticipate having in December.

Chip,

I agree that releasing him is the best option. But even with injuries, teams generally pursue players that can help, not ones that can't. If you can't cut it in the Yankee bullpen, one that is far from the top, then what competing team would be interested, even on the cheap. If Im 2 out in August I want someone who can close the deal for me not one who is likely to make me 4 games out!

See the Yanks have the luxury of 5 roster mistakes every year and surviving because of the money advantage. Thats why Cashman survives. Here's a novel idea.....how about a GM that only makes a roster mistake every other year and that way you won't be paying more money for players that don't play for you than Florida pays ts entire team. Makes sense to me.

Nudge,

In general I agree with you that the Yankees get away with making bad signings because they have the money to cover up their mistakes. However, that is not something that is inherit only to the Yankees. More importantly, and this is something that most of us can't phathom, $3.2 million is nothing to these teams.

The Yankees went into the winter with a need for a veteran in the pen. Guys who were available who are comperable to Hawkins (Linebrink, Riske, Vizcaino) got multi year deals for significantly more than the Yankees gave Hawkins. He was/is essentially a low risk/low reward proposition. Now, had they given him the contract that the White Sox gave Linebrink - THEN I would have a big problem with it. Again, to you, me, and almost everyone else, calling $3.2 million "low risk" is insane. But in baseball - or I should say in baseball everywhere outside of Miami - it is like buying off the Dollar Menu.

Chip,

I'll agree! Its the Pavano mistakes that are the ones that hurt, no pun intended.

Fun scratching old scabs like the Pavano outcome -- especially when it's hard to find very much in the big picture this year to make Cashman look bad.

Diane,

Not at all difficult!

Hawkins
Chamberlain
First Base
Team Defense
Bullpen

Shall I continue and fill in the details?

How does Chamberlain make Cashman look bad on that list?

Nudge: I believe Hawkins was signed as a backup for the younger guys on the farm such Alafabet, Patterson, Veras and Ramirez. Cashman has seen the kids pitch and Hawkins. If Hawkins continues to throw at the present level adios amigo one way or another.

Farnsworthless will take a few more outings before the towel is thrown but he's tradeable if the Yankees want to. Joe Torre is no bullpen genius but even he knew that Farnsworth is toast. As Chip indicated some manager believes he can get that mountain of talent to pitch.

Cashman does have the luxury with a heavier wallet but its a good plan when you have a backup just in case. There are many teams out there with heavy wallets. We can't always refer to the Marlins, Brewers and Twins of the baseball world.

I guess Nudge hasn't been watching our games this week -- he hasn't noticed how the bullpen overall is performing.

Old scabs, Nudgie... but keep picking if it helps you through...

Nudge -

I agree, but every high revenue team has their own Pavano-type blunder.

The Mets with Pedro (though that was a move they still had to make), Shoenweis, the Kazmir deal, the Benson deal (and subsiquent signing - though that got them Maine)

The Red Sox would probably love to go back and give Orlando Cabrera a deal coming off the 04 season rather than going with Edgar Renteria, Alex Gonzales, and Julio Lugo and have kept D-Lowe over Matt Clement and not signed Curt Schilling this winter.

The Giants did the Zito deal, traded Liriano, Bonser, and Nathan for one year of AJ Pierzynski, sent Accardo to the Jays for Hillenbrand (which goes to prove that anyone can be traded, no matter how bad they are)

The Dodgers have Jason Schmidt, Nomar, and Juan Pierre and for all I know are still paying Darren Driefort

The Angels have Gary Matthews (and will soon come to regret the Torri Hunter deal)

The Cards sent Dan Haren and Danny Meyer to the A's for Mark Mulder

Braves have Mike Hampton

Phillies have Adam Eaton, Pat Burrell and just got done paying Jon Leiber.

Rangers with Chan Ho Park, Kevin Millwood

Cubs with Jason Marquis

Brewers with Jeff Suppan

Mariners last year with Jeff Weaver and Horacio Ramirez (bet they wish they had Rafael Soriano right now)

Like I said, covering bad moves is not just a Yankee thing. The only way you ensure that you don't make a bad trade or bad signing is to make none - like the Indians.

Viper,

The braintrust had devised this tremendous Chamberlain plan where he begin ST as a starter to stretch him out, then he goes to the bullpen to be a short man, then he goes to the monors at some mystical moment so that he can be restretched out to be a starter!

Is that the plan of a sain man or someone who is making it up as he goes along?

Diane,

I've seen at least a part of every game. I'm not impressed. If you are then I guess some people are easier to satisfy.

Nudge -

The use of Chamberlain depends on your point of view. You are adamant that the Yankees will keep him in the pen long term. The Yankees are not as adamant. They want to see what he can do as a starter and still plan (long term) on him being in the rotation. So from your point of view, it doesn't make sense, but if you believe that the long term plan is for Joba to start - then yeah, it makes perfect sense.

Chip,

In defense of Cashman you always want to point out mistakes of others. The problem is with Cashman you can't point to successes where as the other GM's you can. I don't expect any GM to be perfect., at least be correct once in a while. Of all the pitchers that Cashman has brought in from the others organizations in his tenure....NOT ONE was a success. What other GM would survive that track record (other than Isiah Thomas)?

Not really making it up as they go along. He said back in November that this was going to be the plan. He just didn't provide details.

Joba is a different animal from Hughes and Kennedy because of his dominance in the pen last season (and so far this season too). They are just utilizing him the best way they can because of his talent.

Is it a strange plan?

Yeah. But Joba is also a rare talent.

Viper,

Well then maybe they should have devised a plan where he goes to a Buddhist Monastary for 3 months and then goes on a cabbage diet for 3 weeks before he begins a pilates workout routine to prepare him for starting the first game of the playoffs....since he is a special case and all.

The plan has no logic or history of success behind it....but then neither does Cashmans. So I'm on as solid ground proposing that garbage as he is with his garbage.

Also,

Joba is a rare talent? You mean that pitching prospects rarely come along? All teams have them. They just don't do the crazy things with them that the Yanks are doing.

Cranky.

Guess his team is reeling.

Meantime, Yankees fans, any predictions about when our bats wake up?

Nudge -

The thing is I don't know that you can strictly blame Cashman for that track record. I think it is as much a string of questionable pitching coaches as the players themselves. I like Mel and Guidry, but it seemed to me that as pitching coaches they were more adept at massaging pitcher's egos than they were at helping a young pitcher grow (part of the reason I am happy Dave Eiland is in that role now)

Jeff Weaver with Detroit was a good pitcher - in fact he was a good pitcher with the Dodgers and Cards as well.

Carl Pavano was the hottest thing on the free agent market that year. Everyone lauded the move at the time - same as they did with Javier Vazquez.

Randy Johnson blew up here physically, but still managed to win 34 games in two years and the Yankees gave up nothing to get him.

Kevin Brown was brought in because they couldn't deal with Jeff Weaver anymore - we knew what we were getting there.

But you can't say NONE of the arms that Cashman brought in worked out:
David Wells
Roger Clemens
Mike Mussina
Scott Proctor
Jon Lieber
El Duque
Mike Stanton

I disagree with you on the Joba issue Nudge.

BC has the luxary of toying with the notion of him being a SP , They know already he is a SUCCESS as a RP. Common sense will tell you that they will never tell him that he will replacing the greatest closer of all time that pressure alone would be alot. so they are letting his play lead up to that role. Joba KNOWS now he is valuable as a RP

No history of success with a pitcher starting in the pen and then moving to the rotation?

How about Adam Wainwright who served as the closer for the Cards during the WS and is now their top starter?

How about Liriano who broke in through the pen to get his innings up and is now projected to be a top flight starter?

How about Pedro who also broke in as a reliever with the Dodgers and Expos?

Johan started out in the pen with the Twins.

Teams have routinely taken young starters and used them out of the pen at stretches to keep their inning's counts down early on in their careers.

Will you guys stop putting band-aids on Nudge's old scabs?
Evidently, having Cashamn bringing in Clemens didn't work out. The 2 W.S. rings were non-existent, right? And Stanton's worth as a set-up man in the championship years were worthless, and not a guy Cashman brought in, correct? El Duque, Cone, Wells, etc were all non-existant during the Yankees (and Cashman) championship years.
Ignore the fool folks. He ignites off-base discussions, spins them around so he gets the satisfaction and benefit of "knowing it all" about a team he could care less about.
Yanks bats will break out in KC tomorrow night.

kevin brown was brought in to comfort the andy P departure and it back fired.

No actually the team thought wisely with Joba while other teams would have let him rotted away .

SO nudge I guess Mariano was no rare talent as well as he and Joba went the same path

COne was gene Michaels trade

As usual Chip, you provide a voice of reason.

Good for you. Stay sane and you'll be fine.

Diane,

In fact for you I will reveal that my team is in first place so again you don't know what you think you know. Whats with your cranky obsession? Im here having a ball. Just because you aren't you shouldn't project. Also that dead horse is still dead...not gonna run, maybe you should consider getting off it. Ya think?

Chip,

Most of those pitchers weren't when Cashman had control and the ones that were, like Proctor, are not good examples. So whos Proctor starring for these days? I also never said starting a guy as a reliever before he becomes a starter hasn't been tried. Starting a guy as a starter to make him a reliever to return to AAA to relearn to be a starter......that not only has never been tried...its hysterical.

Chip....good stuff my friend!

Diane...let’s hope the bats heat up this weekend in Boston. Looking at the schedule though, 4/18 we go on a road trip to Baltimore, Chicago and Cleveland. I have a gut feeling the bats will wake up on that trip. What do I base that on? NOTHING Isnt it fun to speculate???

"Starting a guy as a starter to make him a reliever to return to AAA to relearn to be a starter......that not only has never been tried...its hysterical"

Nudge, not for nothing, but that happens all the time. In the off season it’s easier for a pitcher to train, and go through the Spring, as a starter, then move him to the pen. That happens all the time. Then in a couple months when Joba is at 30 innings ( June 1st ), you HAVE TO send him down to the minors to build his arm back up to start. This is a common occurrence with pitchers throughout the league.

OK Nudge…how about this. If you wanted to keep Joba at 150 innings this year no matter what, how would you have done it?

It's all well and good to look at only Cash's bad moves, but he has made some good ones too:

Matt Smith and two A-Ball prospects for Corey Lidle and Bobby Abreu

Brandon Claussen for Aaron Boone (won Game 7 2003 ALCS)

Rickey Ledee and Jake Westbrook for David Justice (2000 ALCS MVP)

David Justice for Robin Ventura

Robin Ventura for Scott Proctor and Bubba Crosby

Hideki Irabu for Jake Westbrook, Ted Lilly, and Christian Parker

Jeff Kennard for Jose Molina

David Wells, Graeme Lloyd, Homer Bush for Roger Clemens

Javy Vazquez, Brad Halsey, Dioneer Navarro for Randy Johnson

Randy Johnson for Ross Ohlendorf, Luis Vizcaino, Steve Jackson (that's better than what they gave up for him and not bad for a 41 year old coming off back surgery with 16 million owed him)

Ben Ford for Glenallen Hill

Kenny Rogers for Scott Brosius

Alfonso Soriano for Alex something or other.

So - including his bad trades, Cashman's trades have netted 3 titles, 9 AL East titles, 11 trips to the playoffs, 1 MVP, 1 Cy Young.

The only players he has given up who are still in the majors:
Ted Lilly
Kenny Rogers
Jake Westbrook
Nick Johnson
Dioneer Navarro
Juan Rivera
Alfonso Soriano
Javy Vazquez
Jose Contreras
Scott Proctor

Johnson and Johnson

I couldn't agree more with what you say.LOL

Chip

Great stuff !

DRU,

This gets to the crux of the problem. I would never put an innings restriction on a guy. Additionally, Joba would never have made the team as a starter out of ST. You all seem to forget that he wasn't very good. If the pen wasn't an option for him they would have sent him to AAA to work. Also name one pitcher that a team has done what the Yanks are doing.....in season...not over several seasons. Its never been tried before. Many of the baseball commentators (who's opinions I despise) have been at a loss to find a similar example. Basically the baseball people around the league are scratching their heads over this. So no it not tried or true.

Now if it works the Yanks can claim to be the groundbreaking team.....but I doubt it. Time will tell and besidses I always thought this was another one of those Cashman dodges. I don't think you will ever see Chamberlain as a starter this year. We shall see.

My Post DRU,

Chip,

Some real big reaches in that one. Tooo numerous to even deal with. That post really supports the Cashman bad trade angle. It cant be a good deal to trade for a guy and then a good deal to trade that guy away. Also the better ones were before Cashmans tenure in charge.

In the future its good to exclude the name Randy Johnson in any Yankees defense.

Nudge,

Every team puts restrictions on young pitchers - they have for years and likely will continue for years to come. Probably goes back to the Kerry Wood/Mark Prior destructions and the demolition of Generation K with the Mets.

You've spoken to baseball people around the league have you? Lots of conversations between you and Billy Beane and Keith Law? Because everything I have seen/read/heard points the direct opposite - that they all understand why the Yankees are in love with the idea of Joba as a starter - but don't know that they would risk the drop off in the pen by moving him right now.

Joba is in the majors, in the pen, because the Yankees, coming out of Spring Training, had 6 starters for 5 spots, Joba is the only one with experience in the pen and, based on last season's performance, he has nothing to prove at AAA.

As for Randy Johnson - hindsight is a wonderful thing - the Yankees got a pitcher coming off 4 Cy Young seasons in the last 6 years for a pitcher who bombed in NY, and two guys who turned into nothing. None of which are still with the D'Backs btw. You do that trade every single time it is offered.

And I'm not entirely sure how my last post proves that Cashman is a bad GM - he has never had a team not in the playoffs, has traded away no one of consequence and has gotten rings and great performances from several of the players he brought in. Is he perfect, nope, but find me a GM who is and I'll find you a GM who hasn't been in the game long enough to screw up.

So it's game 6 and we're already clamoring to release Hawkins? Isn't that just a little bit hasty? At this rate if he strings to scoreless appearances together we'll want him signed to a 5 year contract.

It's too darn early to panic folks. Farnsworth has proven he is useless over the past few seasons so I can understand the idea of getting rid of him somehow but I think we need to give Hawkins a little more than two innings before we decide he needs to go. I'm more pissed off about him wearing Paulie's digits than his pitching thus far.

As for trading for a guy and then trading the guy away - Ever hear of the stock market? Cause that's what happens every day there.

Cashman traded for Justice in 2000, Justice helped the Yankees win the WS that year; after the 2001 season he needed a 3B and turned Justice into Robin Ventura who did a very good job for two years - at which point the Yankees brought in Aaron Boone (who helped the Yankees get to the WS in 2003) - thus they had two third basemen and so they turned Ventura into Proctor and Crosby.

Just because you trade for someone doesn't mean it is only a good trade if they spend the rest of their career with you. Players are traded every year, what difference does it make if the player you trade is one you traded for a year or two ago? Gene Michael in 95 traded for Ruben Sierra - in 96 Sierra was traded for Cecil Feilder - does that make Stick wrong for getting Sierra for Tartabull?

Was Theo wrong for spinning Brandon Lyon (who he got in a trade with the Pirates in 03) to the D'Backs for Curt Schilling a year later?

Chip,

Wow its amazing how I can write one thing and people hear different! Maybe you can be a politician for spinning what people say seems your talent! But in seriousness...I never said I talked to anyone, only that any baseball person that I heard who commented on the new Joba rules...since the Yanks have made such a public spectacle of them....have never heard of any team doing that. Thats not the same as questioning SP vs RP.

No rings since Cashman took over. This myth keeps resurfacing. Last year was the big discussion of how Cashman wasn't responsible for the crashes in 2001-2003 because he wasn't fully in charge. You can't keep moving the goalposts. Im tired of hearing how Cashaman was instrumental in all the good yet magically not involved with the bad. 2004 on its been his team so he takes ALL the hits.

Keep him if you like him so much. I dont hear a ground swell from with the org or from the fans to get him a new contract. Doesn't seem like he has impressed as many people as you might believe. I like him h