On the Yankees beat

Anthony,

This is just utter nonsense! Either the guy's a starter or a reliever, period.
Why can't the Yanks use ST to stretch his arm out and get him ready for the season like they do with every other guy in the rotation?
I've posted a few comments on the pitch count, innings limit stuff which you may have glanced at. If not, basically I said that the best way to keep a pitcher's arm healthy is to have them throw and throw often. Leo Mazzone did it with Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine and the rest of the Braves starters in their heyday and I don't remember any of those pitchers spending significant time on the DL. I don't understand why the Yanks don't follow that same philosophy with their group of starters.
Putting these stupid limits on the young guys hasn't really worked out has it? Hughes got hurt, Kennedy got hurt and Chamberlain got hurt.
You know what? I say just keep him in the setup role and make him the heir apparent to Mo when the time comes like the Red Sox did with Papelbon.
There are enough arms in the syatem to find a few starters in there (look at all of Cashman's reclamation projects) and put a staff together. There's also the option of going after Sabathia and/or Burnett if need be.

I understand the logic behind the innings limits (and have said that's why he's coming back to pitch this year even though they're out of it) But come on, at this point you might as well just wrap these kids in bubble wrap.

If he hasn't reached his innings limit, send him out to Arizona like they're doing with Hughes.

But this is getting completely insane and is yet another reason I'm worried that this will be a very conservative winter by Cashman.

The above comment is not mine, really getting frustrated with this team, and the troll. Cashman needs to be conservative this winter.

Someone please show me where inning limits has worked

I think Joba should be left as a setup man. Guys as good as he is come very few and far between. Let Cashman throw a ton of money at CC Sabathia and whatever other free agents become available for the starting rotation. I'd much rather know that we had Joba three or four days a week instead of once every fifth day.

I think Joba should be left as a setup man. Guys as good as he is come very few and far between. Let Cashman throw a ton of money at CC Sabathia and whatever other free agents become available for the starting rotation. I'd much rather know that we had Joba three or four days a week instead of once every fifth day.

Sorry for the double post.

Sorry for the double post.

This is not even a debate any longer.

Anyone who watched Joba out duel Josh Beckett 1-0 at Fenway a couple of months ago and thoroughly dominate the Red Sox knows that his ceiling will always be as a starter.

And it wasn't just that night against Beckett - the guy had a 2.61 ERA, 1.26 WHIP over his last 10 starts when he was allowed to throw at least 80 pitches.

This includes a stretch of 9 starts where he was mowing down the opposition (54.0 IP, 46 H, 12 ER, 18 BB, 61 K -- 2.00 ERA, 1.19 WHIP) and very quickly became the go-to guy in the rotation.

The fact that some people are even questioning where is role should be is both absurd and ridiculous.

Well, here we go again with Joba rules. I do not have a problem with pitch limits but I have a problem with in season transitions especially reliever to starter. You can call it stretching out from reliever to starter but this stresses the arm. You have to stretch out the mind. Joba needs not to throw as hard as he can from inning one to inning seven. His pitching was not efficient at all as a starter. Overthrowing often in his starts was a normal occurrence. He needs to be one or the other. My suggestion is go hard for FA pitchers. If we achieve a solid rotation then make Joba a reliever. I believe his mindset points toward the high end reliever with about 3 appearances a week. It seemed that the bullpen has self destructed in the last couple of weeks. One way or another depending on the winter signings of pitchers than make your decision on Joba. Make him the 5 th starter an pass over when no 5th starter is needed. There is no fool proof plan but one way or the other.

This is getting ridiculous....

He has Ace potential and they keep screwing around between the rotation and the pen?

Sully -

I agree. For some reason everyone is in love with the way Rick Peterson groomed Zito, Mulder, and Hudson with strict limits on innings and pitches. Ironic since Leo Mazone believed in a policy of the more you throw the better you are and his star pupils turned out to be Glavine, Smoltz, and Maddux - three first ballot hall of famers who have been effective into their 40s.

I've always supported Cashman on this blog, even when I didn't necessarily agree with him, but this constant diapering of the young pitchers is extremely frustrating. Let them throw. As it is, the way they worked Hughes throughout his time in the minors they turned him into at most a 5 inning pitcher because of his strict pitch counts and now they're treating Joba like a Yo-Yo. Both have a chance to be special but all the Yankees are doing is wasting that great promise.

Anyone else notice how well Hawkins has pitched for Houston over the past month? 10.1 IP, no ERs and more than a K/IP. Crazy.

Chip,

Your Mazzone reference is true regarding Smoltz and Glavine, but the Braves didn't develop Maddux.

The Cubs developed Maddux and he was already an established top-echelon pitcher and Cy Young Award winner before he ever signed with the Braves.

Once Joba, Hughes and the other young arms start throwing 200 IP, they won't be babied as they are now. Building them up to that plateau is the hard and frustrating part.

But the Yanks are not alone with treating their young arms with such kid gloves. Every team is essentially doing the same thing.

Viper

I know that it's the norm to treat these guys with kid gloves, but as Sully has pointed out it isn't as if there is some huge track record for success in these strict pitch counts and innings limits that would suggest that this is the right course of action. It seems to me that whether you baby pitchers or not, they still could get hurt. The Cards did it with Adam Wainwright and he got hurt. The Mariners with King Felix and he got hurt. The Twins with Francisco Liriano and he got hurt. A's babied Rich Harden and he's been nothing BUT hurt. The Yankees babied Joba and Hughes and both of them got hurt.

There are, as far as I can tell, four examples where a pitcher may have been overworked to the detriment of the team:

Wood, Prior, Bonderman and Verlander. And in the case of the last two, the team rode them all the way to the World Series.

Chip,

I would take issue with you on Liriano because there were questions about his elbow when he was still with the Giants.

I do think most of the babying of young arms is trial and error and I don't see GMs not being cautious with young arms because they are so valuable to each franchise.

Viper,

I stated on this blog last week that I feel the innings limits and pitch count stuff is a load of garbage. Mazzone made his starters throw a lot between starts and none of them spent any significant time on the DL. Throwing keeps the arm loose and builds up strength and the more that you throw, then healthier your arm will be. I know that Maddux came up with the Cubs and signed with ATL as a FA, but he had his greatest success pitching under Mazzone and he was never hurt. He was always up there with the league leaders in ERA and he was no 6 inning pitcher. In fact, none of those Braves pitchers were.

This thing with Chamberlain is pathetic. Now the Yanks are going to put him in the pen again at the start of the season and do the same exact thing with him next year that they did this year. It's ridiculous. Either he starts or he relieves, make up your (the Yanks) mind!!!

As Chip said, most if not all teams put the limits on their pitchers and there have been a slew of injuries. He already named some guys so I won't go there. The Yanks have fallen in the same trap and it's having a detrimental effect on these kids. All 3 of them came up lame this season and believe me, more of the same is in store next season if this philosophy continues.

You young guys may not remember, but some of us "gray beards" like Rick, Larry, Ruse and Jim A probably remember Mike Marshall from the Expos and Dodgers in the 70's. He was a relief pitcher (the term closer wasn't in use back then) who threw almost every day (and he didn't just go out for the 9th either). He had a degree in kinesiology (sic) and he said that throwing was the best thing for a pitcher. Didn't seem to hurt him any and he threw a screwgie if I remember correctly.

Drop this innings stuff and pitch count garbage Yanks!!!

Larry,

There is zero chance that the Yanks are going to use the Leo Mazzone philosophy with these kids. We can yell and scream and tell everyone how stupid it is - but GMs aren't going to change their approach.

The fact of the matter is that if they are babied and get hurt - well, then they get hurt. Who is to say these kids wouldn't have come up lame if they threw 200 innings this season?

Keep in mind that some kid named Josh Beckett landed on the DL a whopping 9 times with the Marlins alone.

The bottom line is that young pitchers with high upside are golden and probably more valuable - dollar for dollar - than any other position in the game.

Teams are going to protect them as best they can and there's nothing we can do about it because teams have invested way too much in them to roll the dice on their health.

I do really hate the idea of Joba going back to the pen. I wished they would just put him back in the rotation in 2009 and leave him there. But that's probably not what they are likely to do, so we Yankee fans are going to have to live with it whether we like it or not.

I also think some people make too much of Mazzone's influence on Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz. True, they didn't suffer many injuries - but all three were enormously talented and all are headed to the Hall of Fame.

Now Mazzone is a great pitching coach - but he's not a miracle worker.

He can't turn sh!t into gold, so having three unbelievable talents like that at the same time certainly makes Mazzone look like a genius and he maybe got a little more credit for their success that he actually deserved.

Oops. I meant John - not Larry.

Look, I promised I would never be a guy who would ever say "back in the old days..." especially since I wasn't around in the old days. But I wonder what guys like Kaat, Seaver, Ryan, Rags, Gator, and other guys from that generation have to say about what the Yankees are doing.

I mean those guys threw tons of innings and pitched at a high level for a lot of years. They pitched through injuries without being shut down for every nick and strain and it didn't hurt their long term health at all.

Yeah Viper, I know. The blog is for us mere mortals to throw stuff around and debate, agree or argue with. I'm sure that the "powers that be" in the org aren't paying too much attention to what we have to say. :-)

I don't want to make Mazzone out to be a miracle worker. That wasn't my intention. I just wanted to emphasize that he had a good way to keep pitchers healthy with the type of program that he used. I just think that pitchers today are more prone to injuries with all of this stuff, but it's just my opinion.

You throw up Beckett as being injury prone and he does spend time on the DL every season. Boston does watch his pitch count (there's those dreaded words again) but, on the flip side of that, how about a guy like Halliday who seems to throw a complete game a lot ( 9 I believe) and seems to stay healthy for the most part.

I guess that there are good arguments on either side of this fence.

Chip,

You make it sound like the Yanks is the only team that does it. But the truth of the matter is that most every team is treating their young arms this way.

But I'll answer that question for you. They probably don't like it - and past generations always think their successors have it easier then they did.

Hell, Goose Gossage often talks about how it's much easier to be a closer now than it was in his day even when he talks about how great Mo is.

But a lot has changed about this game since those guys were playing ball - much higher salaries and diluted pitching talent for various reasons (fewer black players, expansion, smaller ballparks).

The game is just different now. And it has dramatically changed even more the last couple of years with the banishment of greenies.

Perhaps this is a bit off-topic, but isn't it human nature to frown on future generations a little bit?

Our parents believe life was much tougher growing up than we had it. I believe my nephews have it much easier than I did growing up.

Seems to me the older generations will always find reasons to knock the younger generations.

Viper,

You'll be doing that also when you get "up there" Bro. LOL

Viper - I just put a post in the most recent thread citing a bunch of very recent examples on this.

Basicly, the Yankees have screwed up with Joba. His inning counts are down the last two years. So, if they keep up with their plan of proportional increase of innings pitched .Joba is at least two seasons away from full time starting rotation if everything works out physically. But, is there any proportional ratio for innings pitched that the mental aspect is considered because I believe Joba will stop being the loyal player with all these rules which are affecting him. He wants to pitch either from the bullpen or in the starting rotation. If you consider Hughes and Kennedy. The progress of our trio who were to lead us to the 27th ring has been totally messed up. Kennedy and Hughes were not ready. How many weeks does it take to heal from a tress fracture of a rib. kennedy???????????

I believe Wallace Matthews is correct. The only way the Yankees know how to function is spend and spend some more. Their attempt to be conservative is crashing and burning before our eyes. Yes develope the farm system but be realistic that you cannot compete for the ring without spending big time which I know the Yankees have not indicated that they would be frugal but I'm sure it was in the back of their minds. There are a few organizations that are top notch, LAA, Twins. One spends money and the other is frugal both develope players. It can be done with the Yankee resources and still compete for the ring.