How long is too long to wait for CC?

By Michael Axisa

It's been 19 days since the Yanks slapped a six-year, $140 million-contract offer down in front of CC Sabathia and his agent Greg Genske, but they haven't gotten so much as a counteroffer in return. While everybody but Sabathia has said he prefers the west coast and National League, no teams fitting that description have expressed interest in the burly lefthander now that the Angels' GM has debunked their reported interest. Nearly three weeks later, Sabathia is still looking at the same two offers; the Yanks' offer, and the Brewers' original $100M offer.

The Hot Stove League has been slow to develop this year, but the action has picked up recently in the wake of the arbitration deadline. After acquiring ex-Yank Javy Vazquez yesterday, the Braves have moved onto free agent righty A.J. Burnett today, reportedly preparing to offer a guaranteed five-year deal worth $15-16M per year. It's starting to reach the point that the Yanks can begin to apply some pressure to Sabathia's camp for a response.

None of the alternatives to Sabathia are as appealing as the Baseball America's Major League Player of the Year. Padres' GM Kevin Towers appears to be backed into a corner now that the Braves have moved on from acquiring Jake Peavy, and now may get stuck accepting a lesser package for arguably the most dominant starting pitcher in franchise history (similar to what happened with Bill Smith and Johan Santana last year), but there isn't any indication that Peavy will approve a trade
to the Bombers. Derek Lowe is also available, but Scott Boras isn't known for swift negotiations. Ben Sheets is hurt, Oliver Perez is extremely unappealing to an AL Team because of his astronomical walk total, and Jon Garland is nothing more than a innings eating Sidney Ponson (the difference between the two pitchers last year was one extra run every 64 IP). The Yanks don't want to get caught waiting around for Sabathia to make up his mind and have the rest of the quality pitching market pass them by.

With a need to acquire three starters (one of whom they hope will be a discounted Andy Pettitte) and the Winter Meetings set to begin in five days, the Yanks aren't in a position to wait around for Sabathia to dictate their offseason moves. Even if they just got an idea of which way CC was leaning, they could begin to move forward with the rest of their offseason plans. I'm not asking for Sabathia to sign today, just some dialogue would be nice.

Michael Axisa writes for River Ave. Blues and can be reached here.

Comments (177)

After the Mike Hampton fiasco, you would think the Braves would be the second to last team to invest 5 years in a pitcher with Burnett's injury history. The Yankees of course should be the last team to go there after Pavano stole their money for four years.

Michael: I agree with your comments about CC. I do believe that he has earned Free Agency and maybe allowing his status as the big fish in the pond to be rude toward the two teams that truly want him to play for them.

His agent is missing the boat when he fails to enter into talks with the Yanks thus drawing out the so called West Coast teams who may have interest in CC but are actually laying in wait for the Yanks to move on and they (west coast club) gets the discount.

This big fish may not have the heart to pitch in NY. His last three records in the AL are 15-10,10-11 and 6-8 with a pretty good club in Cleveland.

The Yanks must move on and start Plan B during the Winter Meetings if by Monday after breakfast CC has not started conversations with them. To me it shows much about his character to not converse with the Yankees about a time frame to get together or advise them he has no interest. Oh, that might hurt his bargaining with other clubs. So Cashman pursue Plan B and smoke out this guy called CC.

Like I said a few days ago, Cashman is handling this all wrong. CC's silence is deafening! I would have moved on to signing some people by now. CC can sign later if he wants, but I certainly wouldn't be waiting around on him while everyone else is moving elsewhere. If Cashman isn't careful, he can get shut out completely! Besides the pitching holes, we also now need a 3 hole hitter too! Oh, that's right, there a dime a dozen. No need to hurry.

Wake up BC. You can sit on CC's offer all you want, but start filling in the other holes NOW, before it's too late!

Some people are getting way too antsy and need to relax regarding the Sabathia sweepstakes.

Right now, there are only two offers on the table and the Yanks' deal is the only one worth considering.

As I said last week and echoed by Reagin's comments, the Angels have their priorities focused on Teixeira and the Dodgers aren't likely to spend that kind of money.

Sabathia may prefer to pitch on the West Coast because he lives in California - but that's different than claiming he doesn't want to pitch in NY.

He just has a preference. It's as simple as that. Liking one city doesn't mean he hates the other.

This isn't conspiratorial and it doesn't mean he won't eventually sign with the Yanks.

He's earned the right to shop his services around to see what kind of offers he can get. That's no different than any other FA on the market.

At this point, I'd be surprised if the Yanks don't sign him.

I tell you this. and It may mean nothing but the Yankee's cocky attitude is probally hurting them, A Public acknowledgment of a player or Manager reaching out and calling CC and making it be known that the team wants him may be what is needed. Again not bashing the new Mgmt but if your run by stiff collard starchy mgmt .I know I abshed Torre in the Past but he people skills is definitly missed and there have been players in the past that have stated if it was'nt for Torre they would have not signed. Shoot Hank Steinbrenner should be on the phone or publicly coolded him.

On Sabathia - you wait until he makes up his mind. He says that won't be until next week's meetings - ok - fine. I mean yes, keep tabs on other guys, explore trades, but in the end what does it matter if he signs on Christmas or New Years so long as he signs (which he may not do). It's not like the Yankees are sitting on their hands while every other team gobbles up free agents like Thanksgiving leftovers - so far no one has signed, so what's the rush. In the end, the fact that we want him to sign here may not be enough. If we got everything we wanted in life I would have woken up this morning in a mountain top ranch with Angelina Jolie on one side and Natalie Portman on the other. I assure you that did not happen.

Viper - in response to your post from the last thread. First, I do it because it is fun for me. Second, it's not that hard to pull together on a PS3 game. Third I don't think the Yankees need a team of young athletes, I think they need a team of good ball players. As a DH Manny doesn't have to be good defensively, he just has to be able to hit - which I'm pretty sure he could do well into his 60s at this point. And yes, Dunn is a defensive stiff, but so are Pat Burrell and Ryan Howard, that didn't stop the Phillies from winning a world series. And I'm not even short changing the needs in the rotation to get them. I just went on the assumption that the Yankees won't get CC or Burnett and figure that Aaron Harang is a better value and will give the Yankees almost the same return as a Derek Lowe or Andy Pettitte.

Because of the Ray's success last year the "young athletic" ball player is in vogue right now, and I agree that the Yankees should look to get younger where they can, but they should also look to get better where they can.

Manny at DH is a better option than Matsui
Ankiel (or even Jim Edmonds) is a better option in CF than Brett Gardner or Melky

You don't think the Yankees could get Wainwright - you're probably right, more to the point I don't think the Yankees have any intention of dealing Robbie Cano. But the point is that the Hamilton for Volquez and Delmon Young for Matt Garza deals opened up the possibility that teams would be willing to trade good young pitchers for good young position players (like Robbie Cano).

Lastly - I agree with Larry, Grienke's anxiety issues are a concern. It's one thing to regain your comfort level in Kansas City where 12 people are in the stands and you face one reporter after the game, it's another thing entirely to maintain that in a fishbowl like New York.

Fox Sports reports that the Yankees have been doing their due diligence on Rocco Baldelli and may try to sign him. When that kid first came up I thought he was made to be a star in NY as the successor to Bernie. It is too bad he got sick and injured so much because that kid was special and I hope he can be again. How can you not succeed in NY with a name like Rocco Baldelli? I think he may have been the guy that decked David Wells in that diner!

Chip- I tend to agree with you on Grienke- while I love his stuff and so forth, that anxiety problem wasn't THAT long ago. I know Viper won't agree but for me, it's something I would worry about. In KC you may run into a reporter at the hot dog stand- in NY, they're up your wazzoo every day and to me that would cause one to feel anxious. I brought this up a few weeks ago when Viper first targeted him as his preference.
Viper- we can disagree and still be buds, right? :)

Next week will be interesting to say the least. I am hoping for some closure on a lot of fronts that's for sure.

How long is too long? As long as it takes..or until New Years

I dont want to go near AJ or Lowe. I hope the Braves sign AJ and the Mets sign Lowe, keep AJ in the NL far away from us! I think the Yanks realize that CC is the only real #1 SP option on the market. Increasing his worth is the fact that he is a LHP and showed guts last year carrying the Brewers on his back to the playoffs. Ive bashed CC a few times on here due to his innings pitched, playoff record and league wide track record in signing FA SP's to big contracts. Ive also listed a couple plan B options revolving around Teix and Sheets. The fact remains though, we need him more than he needs us. I dont see any issue with him letting this play out until after the Winter Meetings. Its nice to be wanted, and from his standpoint..whats the rush? None of the big chips are off the board. Dont read into this too much, he may want to be a Yankee, but his agent may say..hold on, lets wait until after the Winter Meetings. This is a negotiation, did we really expect him to take the 1st offer within a couple days? Really guys? ( Im as guilty as anyone ) Just because the Yanks made him an offer on the 1st day they were allowed to, doesnt mean he HAS to accept right away. This is all part of the game, lets try and be patient. ( easier said than done )

Now if he lets this play out until New Years, then he is hurting us, and himself, because it hampers our ability to form a better team around him with trades and FA pickups. Still, we need a workhorse like CC in a BAD way. It makes CC a #1, moves Wang to his natural #2 spot ( could be the best #2 in the league ) and takes pressure off the of the kids like Joba, Phil and Ian. It also give the yanks the ability to sign some vet back end SP's on the cheap. If the Yanks miss out on CC, the rest of the FA SP's will hold the Yanks hostage. My perfect scenario is to sign Andy to a 1 year 10M deal and sign Sheets to a 2-3 year, incentive laden deal. This would make our rotation.


Slotting Joba in the 5 spot ( what a #5!!! ), will help us control his innings pitched. Then we can have Phil and Ian and Aceves starting in Scranton and just a call away if Sheets or Joba need to miss some time. It also gives those three kids the chance to spend a full year in Scranton ( something Ian and Phil have yet to do ). I still think the best option to keep Joba's innings down is to start him a month after everyone. If P&C report on Feb 15th to get ready to pitch by April 1st. Start Joba on March 15th to start on May 1st. You can have Aceves or Phil or Ian start in the 5 hole for the 1st month ( usually only 2-3 starts due to the scheduling ). Then Joba's innings would be =

May - 25
June - 25
July - 25
August - 25
September - 25

125 total going into October. If the Yanks make the playoffs, you let him loose! Or, if the other 4 are pitching well, we may not even need him ( fat chance at that ). If the Yanks miss the playoffs, have him go to the AFL and throw another 25 innings to get him to that 150 for the year. Then in 2010, you let him loose! Imagine if we get CC and Sheets, then Phil and Joba step up and are ready to go full bore in 2010, team those 4 up with the Wang Horse and in 2010 we'll....OK let me stop, Im getting excited!!! Again, with CC, we may have the option to do such a thing as holding Joba back a month. Without CC, the foundation to our rotation is shaky and it will be a scramble to make this all work.

A couple weeks ago I was a little nervous that the Angels or Dodgers would swoop in to get him. I had a beautiful dream last night though...true story...I saw CC, in Yankees pinstripes, wearing a #52, throwing the 1st pitch in the New Yankee stadium. I woke up with a smile!!!! It was a sign from Zeus!


Cano and the Kids =

Great to see that Cano is motivated this offseason getting a personal trainer.

We're all pulling for you Robbie!!!!!

Chip & Viper

I didn't say to pull CC's offer or not wait him out. I just said to stop waiting on him BEFORE going after the other missing pieces we need. Cashman needs to seriously start moving forward.


Like your ideas on Joba being the #5 guy and skip the first month! Good plan.


I tend to agree - if Sabathia goes elsewhere (or even if he doesn't) I don't think there's much of a dropoff from AJ, Sheets and Lowe to guys like Harang, Arroyo, Wolf, Meche, and Millwood - all of whom are available for a song.

As for Robbie, I think this winter has already proven to be a rude awakening for him as two of his best friends (Abreu and Melky) are both likely to not be part of the 09 Yankees.

Jim, I like Rocco Baldelli a lot but I'm still very wary of his medical situation. If the Yankees can get him at a good deal - I say why not. But I'm not sure how many years/dollars is a wise investment for a player who hasn't done that much playing in the last couple of years.

A name I've thrown out a couple of times is Jim Edmonds. He hardly gets mentioned in any rumors. He's looking for a 1 year deal and probably won't get much more than $5 mil for that 1 year. We've talked a lot about needing a guy who can fill CF until Jackson is ready - well wouldn't Edmonds, who can still hit and field (though not at the gold glove level he did 5 years ago) fill that role perfectly?

Rick -

I think that the problem with Brian moving forward is that all the other pitchers (Burnett, Lowe, Sheets, Ollie, Andy et al) are all waiting for CC to sign and set the market. Free agency is a lot like dominos, when one falls they all start to fall, but CC right now is gumming up the works.

By the way - I don't know how this effects what the Pads are planning to do with Jake Peavy but they just sent Khalil Greene and his $6.5 mil to the Cards.

I'll say it one more time (that's a lie, I'll probably say it a few more times than one) Brian should look to Cash in (pun intended) on two firesales - San Diego and Florida.

The Marlins basically gave away Willingham, Olsen and Jacobs - there has to be some way for the Yankees to pry Hermida and one of the pitchers (Johnson or Sanchez) loose.

And in San Diego - I know the Yankees have their 1b in Swisher - but I would still make a play for Gonzalez.

Chip...I love Josh Johnson! He was dominate down the stretch after he came back from his TJ injury. Two things working against that deal. First, the Marlins blamed Girardi for blowing out Johnson elbow when he brought him back out after a long rain delay. That may mean Josh wouldnt be too thrilled to be back with Joe if he feels the same. Second, the Marlins FO hates Girardi. I wouldnt expect them to do us any favors.

I also have a man crush on Gonzalez, he would be a beast in NY, far away from that canyon he plays half his games in. I think its safe to assume both players will be costly though. I guess it wouldnt hurt to try.


Frankly, I cant wait, Im getting sick of speculating and coming up with off the wall scenarios.


D-Lowe has (per the Boston Globe) started getting offers - including a very lucrative one from the Phillies who are looking to replace Jamie Moyer.

True, this is a boring wait and NYY fans are getting as cranky as kids in the back seat, asking constantly 'are we there yet?' But I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't really care that much about how long it takes as long as the team is well stocked with talent by the season opener.

Dispite what crtics like Nudge state it is the Ryan dempster deal that is making pitchers demand more.

Word is SHeets want a short term deal

Let's stop the EDMONDS in CF nonsence. The guy is now a MATT STAIRS clone. DAMON in CF is even a better option than EDMONDS.
The ground ball throwing LOWE, with JETER and CANO behind him is a recipe for disaster. Now, if the Yanks signed ORLANDO HUDSON\2B, and then traded CANO for KEMP\CF, LOWE could be successful in pinstripes.

We're all critics I guess and Diane is right- we're getting cranky and impatient.

Sheets needs a short term deal to prove he can stay healthy for more than a couple of weeks.

USA Today reports that the SF Giants are contemplating an offer to CC Sabathia in excess of $100M- I think this is the team to fear when it comes to the Yanks chances of landing CC. They are everything we hear he wants- close to home (his wife is from the area) and in the NL.
I wonder how close they would have to come to the Yankees offer to get him to go there? The Yanks of course would call his bluff and raise their offer but I suspect that's what CC's agent and the players union want anyway. They just need a reason to get the Yanks to raise that initial offer as I've said before, it's hard to take the first offer in the business world as it leaves you wondering what you could have gotten.

A couple of points:

Jim A - I was going to say the same thing about Baldelli. How can he not succeed in NY with a name like that? LOL

Diane - Good analogy on us by using the kids in the backseat "are we there yet" line. I actually was thinking of the scene in Get Smart when the kid in the backseat was yelling "Mom, Mom, Mom" and she counters with "Sean, Sean, Sean".


I gotta tell you Bro, you sure know how to throw another log into the fire.
"Besides the pitching holes, we also now need a 3 hole hitter too! Oh, that's right, there a dime a dozen. No need to hurry"

I have to remember to bring you on a camping trip! :-)


It's entirely possible CC will wind up with the Giants. But the question that was just posed on the radio, and is a very valid point, if you're CC Sabathia do you take a contract from San Fran that will pay you less than what Barry Zito is getting from them when you are by far the superior pitcher?

I don't know the man, maybe his ego would be fine with that, but from what we've seen of baseball players in the last couple of decades it's not out of the question that he would look at an offer like that and say "wait, you're going to pay me LESS than a guy you bounced from the rotation for a time last year?"

That said, I'm prepared for life in a CC-less world. I wouldn't go nuts for Sheets or Ollie or Lowe or AJ - I wouldn't trade the farm for Peavy or take a reclaimation project like Willis.

In no particular order, here are some options - many of which I've bored you all to death with before:

Roy Oswalt - According to Buster Olney's latest blog the Astros are on the verge of a budget cut which could mean purging a pitcher like Oswalt. Viper and I have agreed to disagree about the merits of Oswalt - I think that he's still a front of the rotation guy who is worth the 3 years left on his deal.

Gil Meche - Also has 3 years and a good chunk of change left to earn. He's been very good since signing with KC and, while I wouldn't count on him to carry the water for the rotation, I would rather give him 11 mil per than give Ollie 13 mil per.

Aaron Harang - Big escalator clause in his deal coming off his worst season. With lots of young arms (Cueto, Volquez, Owings, Arroyo, and Homer Bailey if he's not traded) the Reds may sell low on him. He's an innings eater and has led the NL in Ks 2 of the last three seasons.

Give me two of those three, grab a couple of reclaimation projects off the scrap heap (Prior, Mulder, Kameron Loe) for insurance and I'll be alright with it.


CC has said nothing about the Yankees or their contract offer, and its been a while now. The Yankees should wait until the winter meetings, or shortly thereafter, but they need to find out if he truly does not want to pitch in NY or in the AL East, and then move on. Cashman should have a talk with his agent, find out, because theres no sense to getting somebody if his heart and mind aren't into it. It will hurt the yankees in the end if they acquire an unhappy pitcher. Use the cash to get other players.

Heck, maybe the Yankees will get lucky in the Rule V draft like Cincy did with Hamilton, Florida did with Uggla and the Twins did with Johan something or other.

I'm just saying - the Yankees weren't destroyed when Maddux turned them down or when Roger went to Toronto - if CC goes somewhere else the Yankees will survive.

Even if CC does not want to come to the Yankees at all, he still needs them to give him leverage when discussing contracts with other teams. There is no way he will come out and say "I don't care what the Yanks offer me, I'm not going there- I want to play close to home". All the Cali teams would surely drop their offers to a much lower figure.
The balance of power scale is all on CC's side right now- he does not want to mess this up.

Speaking of the Rule V Draft (which I'm doing whether you like it or not) here are some interesting players that are being exposed by their teams:

Juan Abreu - RHP

Left exposed by Kansas City, the 23 year old has no upper level minor league experience but has a big fastball and big strikeout numbers. His 91-94 MPH that has touched 97 is going to have some teams thinking about taking a chance on a guy who struck out 32% of the batters he faced in Burlington this year even with is lack of experience.

Donald Veal - LHP

Veal is a former 2nd round draft pick who was the Cubs #2 prospect just 2 years ago. The lefty has good stuff with a low 90’s fastball, solid curve with above average potential and a change up. His problem has been control, as he walked 12.6% of the batters he saw last year in AA. Still, a lefty with good stuff could be worth taking and seeing how he works out of the bullpen.

Wade Townsend - RHP

Coming out of college he was a great prospect. Has been left behind by the other arms in the Tampa system but might be worth taking a shot on. Also he was flat out awful last year between A and AA ball.

Eduardo Morlan - RHP

Morlan, 22, pitched for Tampa Bay’s Double-A affiliate Montgomery this year. He had a 4-2 record with a 3.64 ERA in 30 games pitched. He threw 47 innings, allowing 44 hits, and an improved 15 walks to 45 strikeouts. Batters hit .242 against Morlan. He is young, and throws hard. His fastball roams in the low-mid 90s, and he throws a hard mid-80’s slider.

And in other news - the Newark Star Ledger is reporting that the Tigers just traded for Jack Wilson SS from the Pirates.

Who would the Yanks drop from their roster if they were to dip into the RULE 5 DRAFT? Plus, any free agent signings are gonna result in players being dropped. For the Yanks, it's not that easy to just add players.

well yo ucan send players back to the minors who have options. You can trade some for cash or Minor leaguers.

Now if all was well with the Dodgers and Torre you don't think for a MOMENT that a trade for Damon or MAtsui couldn,t happen if the yanks wanted practically nothing in return, I could almost now for a fact that the players would waive their no trade to play for Torre. In fact if the Team is not careful Jeter could bolt there in 2010 .after thinking about it I realized Andy is trying to pimp the Yankees of course you scare the team by threating to reunite with only one of the team's most popular manager that left in dispute.

this is where you miss OLD days george , He would have gotten Torre back.
I call the facts as I see them . Joe Torre's playoff run is continuing.

Much as it pains me to say this - ST might be onto something. Ken Rosenthal is reporting that the Yankees and Dodgers are rekindling their Cano for Kemp trade talks and something could go down at the Winter Meetings.

In other news - the big players this winter may be Oakland who are close to inking Raf Furcal and are also looking to add Nick Johnson and sign Randy Johnson.

You must have room on the 40 man roster, to add a player thru the RULE 5 DRAFT. Sending a player from your major league team to the minors, doesn't accomplish this.

Yankees don't need Kemp, they have Nady. Kemp for Cano? Its a steal for LAD

Talker -

Technically that's not true. You can draft players in the Rule V draft and then create a spot for them on the 40. It's moot anyway since you need to keep the player drafted on the active 25 man roster all season. If you don't, before you can assign the player to the minors, you have to offer him back to the team you drafted him from.

In the case of the Yankees, if they decided to take a chance on Donald Veal (for example) they could create a spot for him after the draft by DFAing out Dan Giese, Justin Christian, Chase Wright, Steve Jackson, Chris Britton or Shelly Duncan.

Herman -

Nady and Kemp play two different positions. Nady's a corner OF while Kemp is a CF.

The question is, who would replace Cano. The obvious choice is the guy who has said from the get go that he wants to come to New York. A guy who was reportedly crushed when the Mets signed Luis Castillo because he desperately wanted to play in the Big Apple - Orlando Hudson.

Now Chip hear me out

You don't think Torre Name is all over this if true ?

On paper there is no feeking way the dodgers make this trade?

However here is the case

GM- Joe shoudl we deal for Cano despite his struggles?

Joe T - Well Robbie is a good kid. when motivated he can be the best at his position he was very loyal in my camp.

GM - explain his slump

Joe T - You cannot really explain anyones slump however you can situate the surroundings for certain players. again we was very hands on with him.

GM - Can LA work for him?

JOE T - Yes in fact it may be a better option due to the climate but most of all he woudl be included in a Better Talented group of youth who is thrilled and exciting to watch.

GM- but NY has youth .

Joe T the Youth in NY is talented but not IMPACTIVE but the pressure is on them so much that fear overcomes fun. There was no way I would have assembled a rotation like that last year. I'm suprised Joba did'nt harm himself worse than it was.



overall Kemp is the better of the two and he hits well YEAR round

If Robbie was more consistant he would be a no brainer.

Bomber -

I think Torre was asked if he thought he, Bowa and Donnie could bring Robbie around. But even if he wasn't, it makes sense from a numbers point of view. The Dodgers have 4 outfielders under contract and want to bring back Manny. They have 0 2nd baseman.

Trade from a position of strength to fill an area of need.

In the end, I highly doubt it happens.

Yankees need to get Manny. Nobody fears the yankees lineup, but they will when Manny steps up to the plate. How many runners were left in scoring position last year? Games weren't lost because of Ponson or Rasner or Jeters alleged poor play at SS. Lack of clutch hitting. They are very silent about Manny, but in the end he will be a Yankee because (a). thats where he wants to be, back home and (b) Hank wants to stick it to boston any chance he can. Get Manny ! He will be worth it.


How can you say "Nobody fears the yankees lineup" when we have ARod batting 4th???

I was the ringleader of the Cano-for-Kemp camp over the summer, but I have since quelled those thoughts because it's not going to happen.

I'd still favor such a deal because of the outfield situation a year from now with the contracts of Matsui, Damon, and Nady all expiring, but Kevin Long didn't go down to the Dominican to work with Cano over the winter just to trade him to another club.

As for the distention on Greinke, here's the thing.

Every pitcher available is going to have some area of weakness or concern (ie: Sabathia's miles on his arm, both Burnett and Sheets' injury history, Perez' inability to throw strikes, Lowe's age and being better suited to pitch in the NL, and Greinke's issue with anxiety/depression three years ago) and I just happen to think that Greinke's pros far outweigh his cons and the idea that he may not be able to handle NY is very subjective by people who really don't know anything about his condition.

Look, I'm not psychiatrist - but I do make my living in mental health and have been in the field for over a decade.

Greinke's condition isn't nearly as big of an issue as people think. It doesn't affect his ability on the mound and I would assume that Cashman doesn’t consider it much of an issue either.

Does that mean the Yanks will nab Greinke?

Probably not. But it's not because of an anxiety/depression issues he had a few years ago. It will be because they don't want to pay that high of a price in prospects to get him.


Everybody feared the Yanks lineup in '05, '06, and '07 and it didn't make any difference because they never won a freaking playoff series.

Pitching is still the name of the game. Worry about the offense later.

If people (like me) on this blog are bringing up Greinke's past mental health issues, don't you think the NY papers would exploit that like crazy?

On Kemp for Cano: No way I do that deal. I still think Cano can be a batting champ and hit for more power- no way I give him up for a guy who hasn't proven he can do much of anything yet.

How long have we been hearing that CANO is another Rod Carew? He's a very good player, but getting KEMP solves the Yanks CF hole, gives them a young legitimate leadoff hitter, and adding Hudson improves the defense. This trade, and the signinging of Hudson, improves this team big time.

Has Kemp proven he can hit yet? If you want to improve the defense in CF, let Gardner play it. Kemp is not a sure thing and you forget that Cano hit .342 in 2007 and over .300 in 2006 and after what was, for him a terrible season in 2008 he is tearing it up in winter ball.

I've always contended the wait to find a good OF is far shorter than finding a good infielder or pitcher. The Yanks have not had the need or roster flexibility to add OF's in the past because the roster was clogged up by one dimensional players.
The Yanks have a legit leadoff hitter right now- Damon is still a nice bat at the top of the order and it doesn't appear that he is going anywhere.


You're right that all players are flawed and that we're going to have to accept some flaws with any guy we get. And yes, Greinke is a heck of a pitcher. But here's the concern I have. He melted in Kansas City. A zero pressure situation and he had to walk away from the game for a year.

How many players have come to New York with great reputations and folded in the fishbowl? Javy Vazquez, Chuck Knoblauch those two come to mind off the top of my head. I think dismissing the concerns people have with Greinke is no more or less short sighted than dismissing the health concerns you have with Sheets or Burnett.

As for Kemp for Cano - As things stand right now, the Yankees will go into next winter with zero outfielders accounted for. Damon, Matsui, Nady are all free agents, we don't know what the situation will be with Melky, Gardner, and Jackson. If the Yankees can address that and adequately fill the hole it would create at 2nd (Hudson? Lopez?) then sure, give it a shot.


I agree with you that it's usually easier to find a good OF than a good infielder - the one caveat I have though is in CF (which is why I was so annoyed when the Yankees passed on Beltran). And if you can get a good CF at a time when there are also good 2nd basemen on the market - then I say go for it.

Just a random thought, with Cain and Lincecum and Sanchez and Lowery and Zito - and Benji Molina batting cleanup - wouldn't the Giants be better served making their big money offer to Manny instead of CC?

Not only do they desperately need a bat in the middle of that lineup but it would hurt a division rival.

the Yankees would be better served with manny and 2 pitchers for the price of 1 CC !

HE DID NOT HIT 342 for the whole season he was injured so he was a 3/4 season hitter , true he is a better hitter in the 2nd half. but we need an all out hitter and kemp.

3 Seasons 305 1052 170 315 57 11 35 141 51 16 71 272 .299 .342 .474 109 499 1 9 7 1 18

4 Seasons 573 2218 303 671 151 15 62 309 12 14 99 272 .303 .335 .468 109 1038 10 17 12 18 72

While Cano's upside seems to be RBI's and possibly HR's Kemp upside is OBP and don't forget the teams each play for. One is going to avg more RBI's power numbers on a team like the Yankees. If I had to make a overall decision these players are equal the question would then be who is the more important player in terms of position etc.?


Like anything else, Greinke's anxiety/depression issues of the past becomes a non-issue if he performs on the field and shows it's a non-issue.

Sure, there are retards in the media who will make hay out of it. But there are idiots who make an issue out of A-Rod dating Madonna, too.

Ultimately, none of it will matter if he continues to do what he does best and get MLB hitters out.


I think you're description of Greinke "melting" in KC suggests you really have no idea what you're talking about - with all due respect.

It was a condition he had as a kid and he finally took care of it a few years back. He's had treatment for it and is taking meds. It hasn't been an issue since.

So the KC media market had zip to do with his leave from baseball.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue because neither of us are going to convince the other.

I'm still hopeful Greinke will land in NY someday and it's not because I have some kind of special interest in him due to his history.

I just happen to think the kid is downright nasty and I love his makeup on the mound. I think he's going to be very good for a number of years.

Viper: I mentioned Grienke's condition based on Michael K's comment about it when the the young man was pitching against the Yanks. I 'm sure if there was a big issue he would fold in KC as quick as he would in NY. So my mention of the issue was just as if he had a physical injury something to be concerned about. But the kid is talented and I would go for him.

Chip: I just don't get crazy over the Kemp for Cano deal especially with a potential internal replacemet in AJ. I prefer to stay plugged at second when a positional player swap is mentioned but pitching if FA's are not signed may become a necessity. Its my belief that the SP is the initial key to the winning of the game and the use of the bullpen resources. So to use Cano as the bait for an OF. I would hold off. To get a top notch pitcher, they would have to drag me to the table with his name on a piece of paper after I 'd explore other alternatives.

I believe the Yanks will do everything possible to win but they are going to play within a budget of 190 million. Also, I believe the Yanks understand that you can't buy the WS ring.

Consider yourself forewarned for those who haven't watched Yankees Hot Stove this week yet because I've seen train wrecks that were less painful to watch.

Murray Chass is far more insightful in print than he is in front of a camera. He seemed to have Cindy Brady Syndrome and stumbled the entire show.

And Hal whats his name was horrific in his own right.

Lorenz is fine and so is Jack Curry. But they need more Ty Kepner and Tom Verducci and less George King, Chass, and Joel Sherman.

Verducci used to be great but I guess he pissed the Yanks off so he has been banned.


I remember that. I think it had something to do with his relationship with Torre and a book they were writing together or whatnot.

Who knows. All I know is he was a helluva lot better than some of the rubes they've had on the show since.

BTW, it certainly looks like Sabathia may never get a decent offer - or an offer at all - from one of the West Coast teams.

The Angels are not in the hunt. The A's and Padres certainly aren't. It's highly doubtful the Dodgers will make an offer and Sabean said today that the Giants are not going to "swim with the sharks."

So, it appears the only offers still on the table are from the Yanks and Brewers.

I know Sabathia's first choice is to play on the West Coast - but it's also important to players to sign where they feel wanted.

If Sabathia's first, second, or third choices aren't showing him any love - he's gonna sign with the team that does.

And what's a better way to show love than a $140M contract offer?

I think the strategy of offering $140M from the onset has worked because it has seemingly scared away every team that was believed to be in the running for him.

Frankly, I think Sabathia will be wearing pinstripes by the middle of December.

From your keyboard to Sabathia's ears...please!

Here's a good tip for someone to decipher ... a friend of mine's wife is friends w/ the Cashmans. My friend's wife and Mrs. Cash were supposed to get together tomorrow night but Mrs. C canceled cause she said BC had to go to Washington to meet w/ a player. Not sure if she was talking about DC or Wash state but if it was DC don't both Tex and AJ reside in that area?

Anyone have any thoughts?

Here's a good tip for someone to decipher ... a friend of mine's wife is friends w/ the Cashmans. My friend's wife and Mrs. Cash were supposed to get together tomorrow night but Mrs. C canceled cause she said BC had to go to Washington to meet w/ a player. Not sure if she was talking about DC or Wash state but if it was DC don't both Tex and AJ reside in that area?

Anyone have any thoughts?

Bri...maybe this is what he was up to!


NEW YORK -- Yankees general manager Brian Cashman met Thursday with agent Scott Boras and planned to get together this weekend with free-agent pitcher CC Sabathia ahead of the winter meetings.

Cashman's meeting with Boras and intention to meet with Sabathia were disclosed by separate baseball officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because the Yankees did not announce Cashman's plans.

The Yankees head into next week's winter meetings needing starting pitching. They made a six-year offer to Sabathia on Nov. 14, the first day free agents could start negotiating money. The proposal exceeds Johan Santana's $137.5 million, six-year contract with the New York Mets both in total and average, but there has been no public response from Sabathia or his agents.

New York has been trying to gauge its odds of landing the top available free-agent starting pitcher.

Boras represents pitchers Derek Lowe and Oliver Perez, who also are free agents. In addition, his available clients this offseason include first baseman Mark Teixeira and outfielder Manny Ramirez. In addition to Sabathia, the Yankees may be interested in Lowe and A.J. Burnett, another free-agent pitcher.

Cashman and Boras did not immediately return messages.

Atta boy Cashmoney, lets get this thing started!!!!!

From Jason Stark on ESPN, Dec 4th.


...negotiations for Sabathia have been moving along at a pace reminiscent of Bengie Molina motoring down the first-base line. The Yankees and Brewers laid out their offers more than three weeks ago. And now here we are, all those weeks later, with the winter meetings fast approaching, and "there's no timeline," said an official of one team monitoring the process. "There's no rush."

Ah, but that can change. Sooner or later -- and probably sooner -- the Yankees or Brewers, or both, have to press for an answer, don't they? At some point, they need to know if CC wants to be there or if it's time to move full-bore on Plan B. And at some point, even CC will want to get this thing over with.

...there's still a massive gulf between the Yankees' offer and anything else out there. Can this man possibly leave $30 million on the table? That answer is coming -- and very possibly as soon as next week.


There's increasing buzz about the Yankees' interest in Ben Sheets, possibly an indication that they're not confident they're going to be able to sign Burnett. As this blog noted two weeks ago, the difference between Burnett's and Sheets' 2008 and career numbers are smaller than you'd think.


Come on CC...come on Sheets!!!! Maybe dreams CAN come true!!!!!!

Cash needs to summon his inner Joe Torre and charm the XXXXXXL pants off of CC so they can get him locked up!

If they can get Sheets for two years I'd live with it knowing the rotation would be:


It's funny because I figured as this thing dragged out with CC I would mentally prepare myself for him to sign elsewhere but that hasn't been the case. I will need professional help (might already) if this doesn't happen.

Viper- I watched last night's Yankees Hot Stove and I have to agree with you- Murray Chass may be/have been a good writer, but he does not belong on television and a couple of years ago when Hal Bodley, once a great baseball writer for USA Today retired, I wondered why but last night made it pretty clear- he's lost touch.
Jack Curry looked like he would have rather been reading the phone book than sitting there with that crew.

Cash will improve the team, be ready to compete bigtime in 2009 in the tough AL East ! Does Sheets need Tommy John? I hear he's better than AJ, but possible TJ candidate. I'm sure a physical would rule it out or in.

Jim stuff. Ill have a hotline setup if CC goes to the West Coast.

BTW - if CC signs with the Yanks, I think we should send thank you cards to Barry Zito. Not only is the Barry Zito signing blocking CC from going to San Fran this year due to the money ( without Zito, I bet SF would have offered what the Yanks are and got him easily ), but that same signing may have kept Johan Santana from falling into the Red Sox lap last year. If Barry didnt sign with the Giants, the Mets were #2 on the list. The Mets would have signed him to big money and most likely been out of the Johan sweepstakes last year. Imagine that scenario, CC to the Giants and Johan on the Sox....OUCH.

Heres to you Barry Zito!!!!!!!

Hey Al, great article on ESPN about Sheets injury =


Agent Casey Close said that Sheets' latest problem -- a flexor muscle tear -- is expected to fully heal in the offseason. Sheets probably could have pitched in October if the Brewers had shut him down for two or three starts in August. But with the team scrambling for a postseason berth, Sheets didn't have the luxury of another visit to the disabled list. He threw complete-game, five-hit shutouts against Washington and San Diego in a span of six starts in August and September before the pain became too much to bear.

"I guess the best way to describe it is, it's like a hamstring pull in your elbow," Close said. "There's no structural damage, and [the doctors] don't look for any long-term negative impact to the elbow. But the bottom line is, you have to give it the necessary rest and time to heal."


Looks like it was muscular and not with the ligament. There is a ton of risk signing Sheets, make no mistake, but that's why he's at a discount. AJ is just as much as an injury risk as Ben, but will come A LOT cheaper. Head to head, when both are healthy, Ben's stuff is better. However, AJ has pitched in the AL East while Ben has pitched in the NL Central. So you cant be 100% sure how his numbers will translate. Still =

"He has a better career strikeout-to-walk ratio (3.85-to-1) than Johan Santana, Roy Oswalt and Roy Halladay, and a lower career WHIP (1.20) than Josh Beckett and Brandon Webb."

To me:

Reward > Risk



= )

FYI - Im not sure what browsers everyone uses on here, but I may have found something. When I use IE to post, my 1st comment fails every time...95% of the time, it takes me several tries. When I use the new Mozilla Firefox, it works on the 1st try every time ( still need to do 1 refresh before sending to get the new code ).

With all due respect to Jayson Stark (who does have pretty good useless info from time to time), I'm not sure I buy the "buzz" regarding Sheets and the Yanks.

Of course, this is the same Jayson Stark who said that the Giants could be engaging in talks with Sabathia simply because he went to a Golden State Warriors game the other night.

Talk about a reach.

Never mind that Golden State happens to be Sabathia's hometown team.

I know they are nasty when healthy, but I'd stay clear of Burnett and Sheets.

They can't help you if they don't take the mound.

And please oh please let Lowe sign with the Red Sox. He would not fit very well in pinstripes.

Trade for Zack Greinke!!!!

For the record, I use Firefox as my primary browser and it rarely works for me on the first try.

Sounds like you got lucky, DRU.


I could live with Sheets on a reasonable 2 year deal - far more than I could live with Lowe or Burnett for unreasonable deals.


Not sure if you heard/read it or not. But The Braves offer to AJ is 4 years $64 mil with a vesting option for a 5th year at $18 mil if he reaches a certain number of innings in each of the first four years. Burnett has said he wants a "no trade" clause. A "baseball official" asked about the deal said, "he doesn't need a no trade clause, that entire contract is a no trade clause"

good info on sheets, he will help some team. problem with getting free agents is how many draft picks yanks will give up. maybe they don't care with their AA and AAA Teams having won championships over the past 2 years.

Dru, Viper (and others looking for a more reliable connection): my luck is better, too, with Mozilla Firefox -- I don't have problems every single time like I seem to with IE. But it's intermittent: sometimes goes through perfectly like Dru describes, but other times the problems still crop up.

Yanks Rotation:


A lot of innings pitched (except Joba) will allow the bullpen to shine even more.

I cant argue with you on Sheets durability. After the Pavano disaster I dont blame any Yankee fans for being shy about signing an injury prone SP. At their best though, Sheets is 10 times the pitcher Carl was ( who had his career year in his contract year...AAAAAHHHHH CCHE-AJ Burnett-EEEWWWW ). He has #1 potential and will come cheaper than Carl ( years wise ), to me the risk is worth it.

As far as Greinke, Im not gonna bash him because he's a head case, although it cant be 100% ignored based on the NY pressure cooker. I love his stuff, his BB/K ratio is outstanding, he attacks hitters, he's just 25 years old, his fastball is electric, has a smooth delivery and a nasty breaking ball. He's arbitration eligible for 09-10, and wont be a FA until 2011.......uhm, so why would KC give him to us again????

I must be very lucky with Mozilla then, been like 6-6 so far. If you are reading this..7-7....oops, there was my fail...LOL...Ok, 6-7

Here's something useful that I heard last night on the Hot Stove.

The Yanks ranked #25 in MLB on balls in play turned into outs.

I knew they were bad - but I didn't realize they were that bad.

But this is a big reason why I believe (and Cashman too for that matter) players like Dunn and Manny are not good fits for the Yankee outfield.

Since A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, and Posada aren't going anywhere and Damon has one season left - it becomes very necessary to improve the defense elsewhere, starting with first base and then the outfield.

They made their first move with Swisher as the new first baseman - but they desperately need to continue to improve the outfield defense.

However, if the Yanks do land Sabathia (and for the sake of argument, they ink Sheets to a reasonable short term deal) the defense will improve significantly because they are both strikeout pitchers in addition to Joba the starter for an entire season.

Fewer balls into play means the defense has fewer plays to make (or screwup).


I would honestly rather have Sheets (2 year deal) over Lowe and Harang (via trade) or Phil Hughes over Andy.

Deal Humberto Sanchez to the Twins for Delmon Young (Ron Gardenhire has fallen out of love with him and wants to go with an outfield of Gomez, Span, and Cuddyer)

The other thing the Yankees have to do is address the bench - signing guys like Eric Hinske and Willie Bloomquist would be ideal compliments to Ransom and Molina


Damon - LF
Jeter - SS
Alex - 3b
Matsui - DH
Nady - RF
Posada - C
Cano - 2b
Swisher - 1b
Young - CF

Viper - I don't think anyone really thinks Manny or Dunn would be fits in the outfield - but if the Yankees could move Matsui they would be fits at DH.

Swisher has played forty something games at first base so I am not too excited about him being the answer over there and couple that with the fact that he was the worst major league hitter (or maybe second worst) last year with 400+ at bats and I'm even less thrilled. I remember Cashman saying he wanted to get a true 1B to play the position and I wonder what made him think Swisher was the guy.

Of course I remember Cashman saying he was perfectly happy to play the season with Bubba Crosby as his CF...then we woke up one morning to find Johnny Damon had been signed.
So I am not totally convinced Cashman is being honest when he says Swisher is the 1B and Melky and Gardner can handle CF.

We'll just have to wait and see....

Btw- I use Firefox, have for years and the problem with the codes is intermittent but it appears more times than not these days.

I wish Newsday would figure this thing out!

If the best Sheets can get is a 2 year deal, my guess is he takes the Brewers arbitration offer. It's gonna take at least 3 years guaranteed to get him to leave Milwaukee. Considering the current state of the Yankee rotation, Big Ben is worth the 3 year committment.

Jim A.,

I was not kidding on a previous thread when I suggested that MAYBE a little trouble and delay in posting has been a protective factor here. Look at what happens at Pete Abe's place -- he's a very good blogger but his comments section is completely unreadable unless you have an hour available to scroll through hundreds of ignorant idiots to find, if you're visiting on a good day, almost as many sensible intelligent commenters as you'll find here every thread without wasting your time on the fanboy/fangirl element.

Not saying that's the only factor, but it could be a significant one. Ignorant idiots are pretty much welded to the prospect of instant gratification, and if they can't count on it here they won't hang around. That leaves trolls as potential problems, but now that the behind-the-scenes crew here have finally figured out how to interdict those we're virtually free of them.

All that we have left to deal with in terms of timewasters is the occasional new guy who swaggers in blustering about nothing new, but time seems to take care of either smoothing out their act or getting them bored with us.

So while I too would like the instant gratification of getting through every time without trouble, I'm not sure that in the big picture our little delays are not worth it.

Talker -

I would split the difference. Offer him two years with a vesting option for a third. Have the option kick in if he reaches a certain number of IP in the first two years - similar to what the Braves are offering AJ.

I seriously doubt that if that were the offer he would accept arbitration. Based on the number of games he missed over the last couple of years his arbitration award won't be that great, and he'll have to hope for a healthy year so that he can re-market himself in 2009 as a 31-year old pitcher.

Well Someone one here gets a credibilty check approval!

Posted by Yankee Bri | December 4, 2008 22:21 Here's a good tip for someone to decipher ... a friend of mine's wife is friends w/ the Cashmans. My friend's wife and Mrs. Cash were supposed to get together tomorrow night but Mrs. C canceled cause she said BC had to go to Washington to meet w/ a player. Not sure if she was talking about DC or Wash state but if it was DC don't both Tex and AJ reside in that area?

Anyone have any thoughts?
Yankee Bri stated yesturday valuable info about Brian cash going to DC well.....

According to Tyler Kepner of the New York Times, Yankees GM Brian Cashman was in Washington yesterday to meet with free agent first baseman Mark Teixeira. The meeting came at Scott Boras' request, and Boras was present. Previous talk of Cashman and Boras meeting in California was incorrect, according to George King of the New York Post.

King says Cashman and Boras also discussed Manny Ramirez, Derek Lowe, and Oliver Perez.



Yankee Bri's been kicking around this blog for a long time and NOW he shares that inside information. Well played Bri, well played!

I'm feeling greedy today so I hope Cash told Teixeira "let me get the big fella locked up and then I'll come knocking on your door - can you hang on a little longer?".

Viper: Don't chew me out- I'm just dreaming a little. I just got back from lunch and I'm in a sushi induced euphoric state.


You want greedy - I got your greedy right here my friend.

Yankees sign CC
Yankees sign Tex
Yankees trade Kennedy for Harang
Yankees trade Matsui, Melky and Humberto Sanchez for Rowand

Yankees of 2009:


Damon - LF
Jeter - SS
Alex - 3b
Tex - 1b
Nady - RF
Swisher - DH
Rowand - CF
Posada - C
Cano - 2b


You want greedy - I got your greedy right here my friend.

Yankees sign CC
Yankees sign Tex
Yankees trade Kennedy for Harang
Yankees trade Matsui, Melky and Humberto Sanchez for Rowand

Yankees of 2009:


Damon - LF
Jeter - SS
Alex - 3b
Tex - 1b
Nady - RF
Swisher - DH
Rowand - CF
Posada - C
Cano - 2b

Correct me if I'm wrong but a couple of years ago I remember Kim Jones interviewing Tex and he told her his "idol" growing up was Donnie baseball. Since that moment I believed he would want to be a Yankee. Now, I'm not jumping to anything here, but if the above post from Bomber is true in that Cash sat to speak with Tex himself and Boras requested the meet, then doesn't that say something along the lines of Tex kinda sorta reaching out to the Yanks and telling them hey, I want lots of money yes, but I want to play for you guys. If Cash requested the meet it'd be different, but if Boras requested Cash meet with Tex then that's something to look at. Of course, with Boras involved, you always expect something like this to be a ploy just to make sure those pursuing Tex come with their big boy check books.

Totally disagree. Looking at it from Sheets view, he probably figures he's making a major concession by ageeing on "only" a guaranteed 3 year deal. I believe he would rather take a probable arbitration award of $11 million, ( a little less than the Dempster deal avg.), and stay where he and those around him are comfortable. Changing teams isn't a cakewalk for the player or his family. The aggravation of possibly going thru it again in only 2 yrs, will drive him to take the arbitration offer.

Let's hope so.....although Boras is such a snake I tend to believe he is perfectly happy with the news that he and Cashman have talked so he can exploit it and squeeze more money out of the Angels.

I do recall Teixeira saying he idolized Donnie and let's face it, he is a perfect fit for the Yanks on the field and in the batting order.

Harang isn't a guy I really dream of being a Yankee- if I'm going to go crazy I would just take Brandon Webb or Grienke.

Have you ever been to Milwaukee? Leaving would not be a problem for many people :)

Sheets knows he is damaged goods and maybe he is looking to hook on with a new team/training staff.

Lets put together the best darn staff ever in the game. Hank wants to win and told cashman that this offseason better be a different story than last year hoping ian and phil were ready.

Here's my greedy:

Oswalt (by some miracle)
Hughes to step in for injury/joba innings

Damon LF
Jetes SS
Tex 1B
Arod 3B
Manny DH
Cano 2B
Nady RF
Posada C
DeJesus CF

Swisher, Molina, Ransom on the bench. Maybe Gardner to steal a base a game.

Manny and Damon could share DH/LF

Trade Matsui for something. Somehow aquire grienke and Oswalt. Yes greedy, might cost the farm, but hey it's MY GREEDY team and it will never happen. Just having a little fun guys.

Mr. Clutch - Manny !! Get him ! He sees ball, and hits ball -hard. A-Rod sees ball, but his mind is not clear, thinks about the media, his women, how he looks, what they will say about him, if they like him or not, his stance, and then swings.


Posted on: December 5, 2008 12:04 pm
Edited on: December 5, 2008 12:16 pmScore: 93Log-in to rate:Log-in to rate: Log-in to rate:
Olney's Latest: Cano, Burnett, Furcal, Giambi
Good stuff from ESPN's Buster Olney in today's blog post.

Olney says the Yankees would ask for Chad Billingsley or Clayton Kershaw from the Dodgers for Robinson Cano. After the Dodgers turn down that request, the Yanks will ask for Matt Kemp. If the Yankees do move Cano, they could then pursue Orlando Hudson.
Rival executives believe the Braves' offer to A.J. Burnett is worth $75MM over five years, if the fifth year vests.
The A's will leave their offer to Rafael Furcal on the table for perhaps another two or three days before moving on.
Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik will reach out to Raul Ibanez to discuss his situation. Ibanez has been devalued in the eyes of potential suitors by the draft pick cost that comes with him. Still, most teams must've expected the Ms would offer arbitration.
Jason Giambi's agent is suggesting a three-year deal. Good luck with that.

Does anyone know the exact figures owed to Matsui and Damon this coming season? I believe after 2009, about 30 mil or so will come off the payroll with sui and JD. So the Yanks would be allowed to "spend a little more" this season knowing after next another two contracts are going to be vanished, no?

They're the Yankees....who cares what they spend...ever? They have a printing press in the basement of the new stadium that prints out $100 bills and it is running 24x7!


You'll be hearing from the Milwaukee Chamber of Commerce shortly.

Yes, so true, and therefore, we must crush them (red sox, tampa, etc)

Perhaps I was a little harsh? I love the custard and bratwurst in Milwaukee and I loved "The Fonz" when I was a kid...maybe that will get me out of the jackpot? I hope I'm "correctomundo".

Bob Uecker is gonna be bangin' on your front door. Why the powers that be refuse to issue Mr. Belvedere on DVD has Milwaukee in an uproar.


I think your initial reaction to Cashman meeting with Boras is correct. Boras is likely exploiting this to squeeze as much money out of the Angels as possible.

According to Feinsand, the meeting was at the request of Boras - not Cashman - and the main focus of the meeting was Derek Lowe - not Teixeira, although he was also present.

See that? The Winter Meetings are approaching and now the Hot Stove wheels are really starting to spin.

I say that because we keep hearing rumblings about Cash wanting to bring it down a little bit and not getting Tex if they have Sabathia bla some here have said in the past, yes the Yanks have an incredibly huge printing press that they just moved to a nice ol room in the new yankees stadium, but realistically, economy aside, do you think the Bros are going to keep going up up up? I think if they can keep it at no more than 220 mil a yr they'll be fine. But there has to be a limit on payroll for them. Anything past 220mm and its just outrageous. I put 220mm because of course, theyre the Yanks. My point is, the money is not limitless there has to be a year in which they can stabalize they're payroll and put in some trend tht resembles some discipline regarding the payroll. I think Cashman wants to start that trend. I just through out that point that sui and Damon are coming off. Personally I could care less how much they spend it's their money. Yes we're all paying, but we're paying regardless.

Everybody needs to check out Pete Abe's post from a couple of hours ago.

It's another explanation why starting pitching should be the Yanks' focus this offseason if they want to win. Worry about the offense later.


Baseball economics expert Vince Gennaro invited me to Manhattanville College last night to attend the final session of a grad school sports management class he taught. Two groups of students presented their final projects.

The first group did an in-depth study of the Baltimore Orioles and the factors that drive their attendance and what the team could do to improve that. The second project looked at the value of roster depth.

The students charted the win shares and durability of frontline players and bench players and broke them down to hitters, starters and relievers. They then compared all 30 teams.

As you might expect, starting pitching is what separated the elite teams from the rest and there was a wide disparity. That was particularly the case with the Yankees. But what struck me was that the offensive production was in a pretty tight range. The frontline players of most teams played close to the mean.

In other words, starting pitching is what mattered, particularly the depth of starting pitching. The students, who are all fans of the Yankees, commented that Brian Cashman was doing the right thing by focusing on starting pitching.

The reason I bring this up is to question the idea that if the Yankees lose out on the starting pitchers they want, they should go out and sign Mark Teixeira and Manny Ramirez and try to win with offense.

Based on what I saw last night, there is no “winning with offense.” You win with pitching, particularly starting pitching. The Yankees would have the same problem they had last season, except perhaps they would lose 7-5 more often instead of 3-2.

The idea that they could sign two hitters and simply mash their way to the playoffs is not a solid one or especially valid based on the statistics I saw last night. One way or another, be it through free agency or trade, the Yankees can not lose their focus on the rotation.

Cashman is a smart guy and he has start people working for him. I’m sure they know what those students so ably presented last night. That what’s makes these next few weeks so critical.

Trading Robinson Cano (which I don’t believe will happen) for Matt Kemp only spins the wheels. And please save the theories that Johnny Damon or Hideki Matsui could bring back pitching. They’re both making $13 million, are in the final year of their contracts and have no-trade rights. In Matsui’s case, he has had two knee surgeries in the last year. In this market, I don’t see either of them bringing back a front-line starter in return unless it was part of some larger deal.

The power the Yankees right now is financial flexibility and they need to use that to land a couple of those starters. If anybody in the Bronx needs proof of that, I’m sure Vince’s students would be happy to show you their presentation.

I want Manny, but it ain't gonna happen I fear. Go get the pitching, trade Cano for a good young pitcher (only) if we have to go that route.

I agree with you, I know they want to limit their spending, I was just having a little fun. I suspect that pitching is the priority, and I've always felt it should be (Viper and I have been very adamant about this)- but darn it, Tex fits so well!

The same dangling was happening when Beltran was at our door even on the day he was to sign with the Mets he STILL CALLED the Yankees! what I am saying is Perhaps Tex wants to play for us. what makes thsi intresting is just like Carlos , Tex's position is a needed spot, is the team ready to call Swish their starting SP for many years to come? and the effects of not signing Beltran is evident even today. Signing SP's is evident big time and if it can be done then do it but in all reality if I'm sitting at the table and the choices are Lowe or Tex it a no brainer ESPECIALLY if the player is sitting right there. To think that Tex is coming out for the heck of it in HIS TOWN to just sit and watch Boras speak of another client is crazy insane. There is something up the sleeve and the truth will come out after the CC meeting.

trust me something was said and BC has options best believe

If I could only have 1 of the available SP or Tex, CC is the only one I would take over him. It would take getting 2 of the others, (SHEETS, LOWE, PEREZ, or AJ) for me to pass on TEX. The other SP are just to iffy individually to let TEX get away.

If Cash signs CC and does not sign Tex and his excuse is it's because it's too much money I'd gather a gang of guys with calice plagued hands to take turns slapping this guy in the face once each. C'mon, 1, we've been spending money like crazy so no surprise, 2 we missed out on Beltran on a contract that today is not so bad, 3 next season about 30 mil per yr is coming out of the payroll. So if we do not get BOTH and Cashmans EXCUSE is the dollar amount being to high for THIS coming season, I'd have to meet up with Jim and find a great therapist. Let alone if we don't get either AHH!!!!!!!!!

I agree with you. Cashman also didn't fly there to talk about LOWE. He went there to size up TEX and his interest, just like he is going to do with CC.

WOW..I got into a couple afternoon meetings and I come back to this dreamfest!!! CC and Teix??? LOVE IT!!!!! My god, I love to dream as much as the next guy, but with high hope comes high expectations, with high expectations comes big let downs. We been beating this horse for months, but if there was ANY way to get both CC and Teix??...........I have to stop now, because I cant even begin to comprehend my excitement if that ever happened....cant hold it...mmmmust resssssist.....


Damon - CF
Jeter - SS
Teix - 1B
Arod - 3B
Matsui - DH
Nady - RF
Swisher - LF
Posada - C
Cano - 2B


It would cost us...50 for Mark and CC...10 for Andy...say max 15 for Sheets....75M...didnt we shed 80M????

We’re gonna do it!
Give us any chance, we’ll take it.
Give us any rule, we’ll break it.
We’re gonna make our dreams come true.
Doin’ it our way.

Nothin’s gonna turn us back now,
Straight ahead and on the track now.
We’re gonna make our dreams come true,
Doin’ it our way.

There is nothing we won’t try,
Never heard the word impossible.
This time there’s no stopping us.
We’re gonna do it.

On your mark, get set, and go now,
Got a dream and we just know now,
We’re gonna make our dream come true.
And we’ll do it our way, yes our way.
Make all our dreams come true,
And do it our way, yes our way,
Make all our dreams come true
For me and you. love for Laverne and Shirley? lol


It won't come down to a decision between Lowe and Teixeira. There are other options for the rotation that doesn't force the Yanks to sign a 35 yr old NL pitcher to a ridiculous contract.

Hell, I don't want Sheets for obvious reasons but even he would be a better option at 2 years than Lowe for 4 or 5 years.

I know this is just Boras raising his price tag and asking for the moon, but the idea of signing Lowe to 4 years makes my stomach turn.

The only problem with the Beltran timing was that Bernie was still the guy then and Beltran was a FA about one season too soon. Teixeira free agency timing couldn't have been more perfect for the's destiny I tell you!

Dave: If CC goes elsewhere, I'll save you a seat at Dr. Vinnie Goombatz' office.

Wow...we haven't broken 100 comments in a long time. Just wait until next week!

I didn't want to admit that I used to watch Laverne and Shirley but since you have done so, I will too. I loved Lenny and Squiggy and "The Big Ragu".

Hopefully I get a life for Christmas.


You can start gathering your posse because Cashman has already said it was "crazy talk" to assume the Yanks would sign both Sabathia and Teixeira in tandem.

Prepare to be upset.


The raging speculation has been that the Yankees will sign CC Sabathia, Mark Teixeira and another high-end free agent or two such as Manny Ramirez, Derek Lowe or A.J. Burnett. General manager Brian Cashman termed that conjecture "crazy talk."

In fact, in an exclusive interview with The Post, Cashman strongly indicated the Yankees will not even sign Sabathia and Teixeira in tandem.

"At the pricetags I have read, that is fantasy land, not reality land," Cashman said yesterday of bringing in Sabathia and Teixeira. A Yankees executive said the club has not even created scenarios for assembling a 2009 roster in which it signs the most attractive starter and position player in the free-agent market.

The plan is to concentrate on starting pitching, namely Sabathia, and - at best - Teixeira is a backburner issue in case all the rotation avenues prove fruitless. Teixeira was pushed further to the backburner yesterday when the Yanks obtained Nick Swisher, who, as of now, projects to be the starting first baseman.

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Viper- Cashman has been known to fib a little bit now and then. Remember what I said earlier?

Cashman "I have no problem having Bubba Crosby as our CF so we're not really a player for Johnny Damon".

I'm just saying......

Listen ,

Cashman is playing this right. and Boras is going along with it as well of course they won't mention that talks is with Tex why ? because if the Angels wanna overspend then be it , however if the angels play margain ball then the Yanks will sign for 20 plus a year for 7 years due to the fact that he wants to play for NYY.

by just mentioning him present Boras wants the Angels to get nervous and come with some retarded large amount. reason Angels is mentioned is that now the Yankees feel they are the trend setters in the FA market.

How do this work for BC?

Easy he can quietly nego with Tex stressing his intrest while revealing to him he has to take care of the SP issue, Boras would probally say well if the other guy is going to offer much more he will bite , Meaning Tex could be saying I'm asking for 10 years if you want me to leave my desired thoughts The Yankees. thsi works for Cash becasue if LAA DO NOT offer 10 years then the Yankees win the Home team" battle and can offer a 7 year deal and win due to that fact.

Translation the angels could offer a 5- 7 year deal meaning the Yankees could offer the same thing and would win due to the players desire. It is sought of the CC effect in reverse meaning Tex desire is too paly for the Yankees so another team is going to have to overbid for his services. Now BC is going out to talk to CC and try to personally nail that down. and on the distant radar is a pitcher like sheets.

Now this was told to me as well

If Miranda continues to do well in ST and there is no Tex then he plays and an option.

we also forget that Beltran was going to give the Yankees a discount on the eve of his signing with the Mets. The contract was made up ready to sign dollar amount and Still he was willing to come to the Yanks for a substantial. discount.

Thanks for throwing a wet rag on the dreamfest Viper. It wont happen, and we'd be lucky to just sign CC. If Cashmoney did meet with Teix, it may have been to say something along the lines of..."Im going out to Cali to meet with CC, if he doesnt accept our offer, you are plan B". To think we would sign both is madness, but its OK to dream every once in a while Viper. Heck, I seem to dream too much. Now that is time for me to go home, Im gonna dream up a nice beer. SEE..DREAMS DO COME TRUE!!!

Have a good weekend all...SEE YOU ON MONDAY!!!!!! THEEEEEE MONDAY WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!!! ( unless something happens this weekend of course, then Ill be running back here to chat it up like a Hen on crack )


Kim, oh boy, my left eye has begun to twich...I wish it were 12/20/08! (Think we'd know by then, no?)


The Bubba Crosby thing was different because he was already on the team and Cashman couldn't exactly give the center fielder job to somebody he didn't have.

This time, they traded for Nick Swisher to be their first baseman. Just like they traded for Nady to be their right fielder after Abreu walked.


I have dreams, too - like wanting both Sabathia and Greinke in the 2009 rotation in addition to Wang, Joba, and Pettitte.

But I don't get my hopes up about it because the odds are probably better that Derek Jeter gives me his black book for Christmas.

I do agree with you on one thing. We Yankee fans should be ecstatic if they just land Sabathia and not look a gift horse in the mouth.

He alone will make a big difference in the rotation with Wang back for a full season and Joba the full time starter.

I may not be leaving my opinions or comments but I have been checking in to read from the super regulars. You guys amaze me with your knowledge about baseball personnel and the Yankees, very entertaining even the little skirmishes from time to time. But I enjoy the maturity of it all.

I'm just worn out waiting to see who goes where and for how much? I know in my head that pitching wins it and CC plus one other will be needed with Andy, Joba and Wang with Hughes/Kennedy/Aceves in the wings because 7/8 starters are needed more than that means we are throwing ham and hambone to start games. But my wish for Christmas would be CC/Wanger/Perez or Sheets/Pettitte/Joba but Teix. to fill out the signings this would use most of the savings of 80 million to accomplish. I guess it will take 24 mil a year for CC, 12 mil for AP, 12 mil for Perez/Sheets and 20 mil for 7 years for Teix. 68 mil of the 80. This would be my Christmas gifts under the tree. AJ seems headed for 5 years and Atlanta, Lowe just don't want to be heading into a 3/4 year contract with a 35 year old. We are trying to change things around especially with pitching try to stay young. It will make up for the older positional players who have lost a step or a little bat speed. But I wouldn't mind a trade to fill the Perez/Sheets slot, Grienke/Meche two solid starters who I feel can keep the Yanks in most games.

Also CF needs some attention not for the D but the O. With Damon and Matsui coming off the payroll next year. The Yanks will be OK to correct for their weaknesses that arise during the 2009 season.

The yanks have a plan but we'll see if they can put it together.

You want a dream? You want a DREAM? Well boys (and girls) here's a dream for ya.

Yankees sign CC
Yankees trade Robinson Cano Ian Kennedy, Mark Melancon, for Clayton Kershaw and Matt Kemp
Yankees deal Humberto Sanchez, Melky Cabrera and Zach McAllister to Texas for Ian Kinsler
Yankees trade Matsui to San Fran for ubiquitous prospect
Yankees sign Manny Ramirez
Yankees trade Phil Hughes, Andrew Brackman and Johnny Damon to Padres for Jake Peavy and Adrian Gonzalez

Your 2009 Yankees



Kinsler - 2b
Jeter - ss
Gonzalez - 1b
Alex - 3b
Manny - DH
Nady - RF
Swisher - LF
Posada - C
Kemp - CF

Chip: My dream of your dream will have to be very long just for the chemistry of the team to come together. We all remember the chemistry blogs and the get Er done blogs.

Guess we have to talk crazy to stay sane lol. Oh geebs.

I still think Peavey would not survive in pinstripes. I just don't see his stuff and numbers positively translating into the AL, let alone the AL east. And his motion scares the chet out of me!

Alright - so forget Peavy -

Make the same trade with the D'Backs for Brandon Webb and Connor Jackson.

Put Webb and Wang and their turbo sinkers in front of and behind CC...

Jackson's no Gonzalez but he's on his way there.

Well, Greg Maddux is going to announce his retirement. What a career.

I watched Maddux quite a bit during his rookie season with the Cubs in 1987 (he first saw big league action in '86 - but only 31 IP and not enough to qualify as a rookie) and I remember one particular game when the Cubs were engaged in a bean brawl.

Maddux had struggled quite a bit for several starts and the word before the game was that if he didn't pitch well - Maddux would probably get sent down to Iowa after the game.

This was the year that Andre Dawson came over to the Cubs for peanuts after his long tenure in Montreal and completely went wild winning the MVP.

Anyways, Dawson and I believe Ryne Sandberg got drilled that day and it was time for Maddux to dish out some retaliation - even though he could've left that to someone else given the circumstances that day about his own fate.

So what did Maddux do?

He drilled an opposing hitter and got tossed knowing he would probably be getting his pink slip after the game. He did get sent down but earned the respect of his teammates for it.

Maddux is essentially the blue-print definition of a real pitcher and proved to everyone that you don't need to throw 95 MPH to be one of the greatest pitchers of our generation.

Just think, he and Jaime Moyer were both in that '87 Cubbie rotation and both were still pitching in 2008.

That's nuts.

I'm with you all the way on TEX. There is absolutely no way Cashman makes that trip to just "chat" with Boras and TEX. He could do that over the phone. Cash is showing TEX the Yanks are serious about him, and Cashman is also sizing up just how serious TEX is about the Yanks. Regarding the Beltran discussion, when VLAD was a free agent, he also was begging the Yanks to sign him. As for SWISHER, Cashman knew salary wise, he was a steal, and a bird in the hand to plug the hole at 1B if necessary. SWISHER is most valuable to the Yanks as a 4th outfielder and PH.His declining production the last 2 seasons proves he is not an everyday player.

OK gang, on the Boras meeting with Cashman and Tex. Does anybody really believe that a GM and an agent are going to sit there talking about another FA in front of a player????

Come on, get real! If Cashman met with Tex, it was about Tex playing for the Yanks. Now, Boras might have met before or after with Cashman about others, but not with Tex sitting there!

So, since Tex asked for the meeting, there must be some interest there in playing for NY (and that position is a big need). And, Mattingly was Tex's favorite player. That's why he wears number 23.

Some people sure do have a creative imagination.

Boras requested this meeting with Cashman - not the other way around. And we already know that Boras would love to have the Yanks in on every one of his clients to drive up their price tags.

Secondly, the front office has downplayed all links to Teixeira and Manny for two months now but has made it clear that Lowe is among the top three targets for the rotation - in addition to Burnett and Sabathia.

Why is it so hard to believe that Cashman's main focus was on Lowe and not Teixeira?

The plan since Day One has been to bolster the rotation. The only talk about Teixeira has been from the fans and speculation by some sports writers who attach the Yanks to every big name on the market. Major interest in Teixeira has never come from the team.

Also, Teixeira may have idolized Donnie Baseball - but that doesn't mean he's begging to sign with the Yanks. Hey, I loved George Brett as a kid but that's doesn't mean I'd want to play for the Royals.

Teixeira just spent over two months with the Angels and everyone on this board would agree that they are a significantly better team than the Yanks.

And they have a much clearer path to the postseason given their weak division as opposed to the AL East.

All this hoopla is going to turn out to be nothing because Teixeira will probably end up returning to the Angels.

Obviously none of us know what happened at the meeting. But yes, it would be strange if the focus of the meeting was about another player while Tex was sitting right there.

That said, meeting with the player doesn't mean there's anything coming around the bend. Brian could just be doing his due dilligence. I mean, as unlikely as it might be, what if Cashman turned down the meeting and Tex's intention was to say that he wanted to sign with the Yankees for 5 years $50 mil?

Personally, I would rather believe that they were talking about Tex than Lowe - I think giving Lowe a 3 or 4 year deal at his age is nuts.


I heard Lowe wants a 5yr / $90mil deal. Now, THAT'S nuts!!!
Alot about what we all hear could be smoke. We all know Cashman likes to lay low and misdirect his intentions. Look at the Damon deal. I think CC was an exception just to let other teams know to back off. And, with the Yanks printing press, they could easily afford CC AND Tex if they choose to. And, we NEED them both! Hope that's what we get for Christmas!

I tend to agree with Rick- if Tex attended the meeting, it certainly wasn't to discuss Derek Lowe. However, Tex may have asked Boras to call a meeting and discuss any interest the Yanks might have and maybe Cashman told him if he signs CC he won't be able to "afford" him and that could have been that. Like the papers always say about CC favoring the west coast, they always point out that Tex prefers the east.

ESPN is reporting on it's crawl that the Red Sox will meet with CC next week, surely that is meant to drive the Yanks price up and they even used their big fan Peter Gammons to let that slip.

Viper- Careful about patting Maddux on the back for throwing at someone, you know you might wake the monster, who will lecture all of us about how barbaric that is :)

So was Cash meeting CC in California or Vegas? I thought I heard they were meeting in California and both were flying to Vegas as CC is going to the fight tomorrow night.

Hey Jim,

You never know where they're meeting. Lots of misdirection goes on. I'm just glad they ARE meeting. Something needs to give either way. Boston has no interest in CC, it's just a ploy to make us pay even more. I keep hoping we get both big boys!

like I said the CC factor is in REVERSE TEX wants to play in NYY so of course the yankees would get a "DISCOUNT" just like Beltran was going ot give them a discount.

reason 2 these two players are corner stone players meaning signing them would put you in good hands for a long time they would be the new core palyers as the current ones is aging.

reason 3-

if cc is signed for what the team proposes then they obviuosly know there is wiggle room, Lowe wants 16 mil per year for 3-4 years lowe is a year younger than Pettite so why would you do that , now if lowe is talking 12 mil per year or even 13 -14 then they might talk but then the disrespect would be towards Pettite.

My gut is they sign CC and perhaps a smaller bat if Cano is traded

If CC don't sign then TEX is a Yankee and perhaps a Sheets and or LOWE which is doable since Lowe is talking ANDY money meaning that the team was going to sign CC and another Starter or two AND ANDY meaning their is WIGGLE room.

I'm suprised none of the regulars picked this up becasue the writing is on the wall.

it is already known that if BOSTON wanted too they could sign Both Tex and Lowe Just as the mets signed Pedro and Carlos .

dual signings hurt only when the signed players are not corner stone players.

Just when I get all high on CC, I go and read Jon Heyman on and he does his best to pop my balloon by saying CC will not sign next and that two other teams jumped in with offers right before Thanksgiving.

I just want to go to sleep and wake up in early February.

Cashman may have some trades brewing which could make the signing of CC and Teix. possible. There is 80 million on the table from old contracts plus trades might eliminate money on the table going to the traded player who might be younger such as a pitcher. There are many ways Cashman can make the Yankees better without going hog wild over FA's such as Brunett and Lowe.

If Cashman is smart/sharp there are opts. out there to make an improvement to the rotation and CF.

Things maybe brighter than we suspect since BC is too quiet. The Yankees have been burnt for pursuing players who had reservations about NYC which I don't think CC has. Its about his family. So I'm positive Cashman has not been sitting on his A$$ by the telephone. I believe that his ear has a cauilflower look to it.

The Yanks don't need Teixeira. They need starting pitching - three starters to be exact.

It still amazes me how many people are:

A.) Focused on another bat when it's been crystal clear since 2004 that the lackluster Yankee rotation is the reason why this team hasn't been back to the World Series.

B.) Ignoring history that has proved time and time again that starting pitching is what separates the elite teams from most of the pretenders.

C.) Not willing to accept that the Yankees no longer have an unlimited payroll.

I guess when it's not your money - it's okay to spend like drunken sailors and keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

There will be lots of depressed Yankee fans when Teixeira signs with another club.

just sign manny!!!please!! him behind arod will be the answer.duh?as for melky,hughes/kennedy for peavey.those guy's had there chances and blew it.

Viper -

although I agree with you however Tex does still bring Defense as well especially with DIZZY CANO at 2nd base and Derek No ranger and Cripple Posada and lets not speak on Hideki Mat No Knee And Johnny Aging add in a Faulty Cabera add in Brett No power.

if they can do it they will if they can get three starter then of course they will BUT mark my words if the offense is a streaky as it was last year then trades will be made adding nady showed that there could be consistance after Arod

and for the record the team does need a player like Tex what they need more is SP's having a team with less power means they defense should support the pitching we all no this defense does not

I paid $1200 for four tickets to a game in June last year- it IS my money!
If I'm shelling out that kind of scratch, dammit I want 'em all!

All kidding aside- I'll be very happy if the Yanks can get at least two good SP's. Make that one great one and one good one.

I simply DO NOT CARE about anything else baseball-related until NYY has secured two of the top handful of SP's, hopefully including CC. I trust that BC wasted NO breath chatting about any Boras clients who are not in that top handful of SP's, Teixeira included.

If and when we get those two high-level SP's will be plenty of time to fret about secondary matters.


Jim A.,

Haven't been to Milwaukee in a long time but it used to be one of those quality smaller cities like Austin, TX -- running sixth in the country in number of college students with the corollary of having a highly educated populace, being diverse politically and otherwise, easy (like Austin) to under-rate just on the basis of size and location but actually much more civilized than one might think.

I was just joking about Milwaukee.....all in good fun. Heck, I want CC to spend the next 6 years of his life (at least) in New York and I haven't lived there in 20 years.

Amen, Diane.

There is no substitute for starting pitching.

Frankly, I don't care if they opened the financial floodgates and signed both Teixeira and Manny - they won't win jack unless they get their rotation in order, especially since there are three AL East rivals who have better rotations than they do (TB, BOS, and TOR even without Burnett).

They have to put together a rotation that rivals the Rays and Boston or there will be no postseason again in 2009. You cannot win the toughest division in baseball by mashing your way through 162 games.

Review the "Murderer's Row plus Cano" archives for their monumental success and tell me how many rings they won.

TEX is not "just another bat". He is a power switch-hitter, plays a position the Yanks need to fill, and will fill the #4 slot in the batting order, providing protection for A-Rod.

(1) TEX



You will never learn, talker.

The Yanks had the most dangerous lineup in baseball from 2005 - 2007 and didn't win a damn thing - not even a single playoff series.

But they had the deepest rotation in baseball from 1998 - 2003 and won three rings and five pennants.

Learn from the past and stop making the same stupid mistakes.

OK Viper and Diane

No problem, stud pitching is where it's at. But, just where and at what price are you going to find them? And, what if they just don't want to play for the Yankees??

CC is doing everything he can to avoid coming here. Burnett is wanting 5 guaranteed years and is probably going to get them. And Lowe wants 5 years and $90 mil. How are we going to get all of these guys??? And, after them, where is the STUD pitching. Oh, did I actually even call Lowe a stud???

Yeah, pitching is where it's at. All of this is exactly why I said Cashman blew it last year on the Santana trade. When you have the chance to get a proven ACE STUD SP in his prime, you do it!!!But, back to the present. What if you can't get it this year??? Do you just pass on a cornerstone player like Tex??

ATL had the best rotation from 1991 to 1997 - 99 and how many WS did they win?

Yankees need Starting Pitching however this lineup they posess is not a winning lineup

Is the need to pull up their runner left on base stats needed ? You can have Kofax , Ryan , CC Gibson on the same rotation and if they are not getting run support their starts is mute.

The lineup is iffy and the Defense is awful and not critisized the way it should be.

Mr. Rick last paragraph is actually on point he points out santana while most NYY fans protected the two Rookies who contribute to the lost season.

Nice to get a scoop in there every once in awhile ... I guess I better talk to my friend's wife's friend ??? more often (or however the chain goes) ...

back to baseball .... has anyone checked out next year's crop of FA's?

1B - nothing there (that's why getting Tex would be nice)
2B - mark DeRosa, Brian Roberts
SS - does it matter?
3B - again, does it matter? although, Chone Figgins is available and he plays a bunch of positions
C - Victor Martinez
OF - Rick Ankiel, Jason Bay, Carl Crawford, Jermaine Dye, Matt Holliday, Magglio Ordonez
SP - Josh Beckett, Erik Bedard, Chris Capuano, Justin Duchscherer, Kelvim Escobar, Rich Harden, Tim Hudson, John Lackey, Cliff Lee, Brett Myers, Jason Schmidt, Brandon Webb

Now obviously some of these guys will re-sign during the year and some of them also have opt out clauses they would need to exercise but overall this lot is MUCH better than this year's crop.

If Yanks got Tex and say Sheets this tear (CC to Giants, AJ to Braves, Lowe to Sox) and we trotted out a rotation of ...
... I think we could live with that. Next year (when Andy packs it in) we could grab any of Hudson, Escobar, Webb, Harden, Myers, Lackey, etc. Yanks would be in MUCH better position to negotiate and really find the guy WHO WANTS TO PLAY HERE!!!

That is super important ... CC doesn't sound too charged up to come here (that's his right) so why tempt fate? He dominated the weaker NL but did not truly dominate in his time in the AL (106-71 w/ a 3.85 ERA) ... solid #'s but highest paid pitcher in baseball #'s??? I'd say not.

Just be careful what we wish for ... hate to get the big fella here and then he starts tossing up 15-12 seasons ... that won't cut it.

Intresting, Something tells me Brain would be more creative if he does not sign CC, You will then see Tex and Two pitchers, Hughes will not be Guaranteed a spot this time around

You're wrong, Rick.

I'd be fine with Pettitte returning, so they would still need two more starters.

You don't know what Sabathia is thinking. It's not that he doesn't want to play for the Yanks. It's that he lives in California and would prefer to pitch near his home before seizing offers elsewhere.

There's a big difference between the two. Wanting to play near home doesn't mean he hates NY, but you and several others have jumped to such a ridiculous conclusion and interpreted it that way.

Simply put, that's a retarded way of thinking.

If the Sabathia deal falls through, Cashman will have to find another way - perhaps acquiring a guy like Peavy or Greinke in a trade (although I would not favor a Peavy trade).

BTW, Lowe is never going to get 5/$90M from anyone. That's just Boras talking with his insane demands.

Burnett may be getting 5/$75M from the Braves but there's no way a 35 yr old Lowe is going to get anywhere near that.

Johan Santana was already on the decline. He's not the same pitcher he was during his heyday in Minnesota winning Cy Young Awards and I didn't want to see them pay twice for someone whose best years are already behind him.

And don't tell me what he did with the Mets. The NL East ain't the AL East. Not by a long shot.

Sabathia is younger and it will cost only money to get him - not $137M plus either Wang or Hughes in addition to other young talent that it would have taken to get Santana.

And yes, take a pass on Teixeira. Perhaps you've forgotten the Yanks have guys named Jeter, A-Rod, and Posada on the team.

Those guys are not getting any younger and the odds are damn good that at least one of them will have to move to first base or full-time DH before their careers are over. With Posada and Jeter, it will be sooner rather than later.

They are only allowed so many DHs and first basemen in the everyday lineup, so they have to keep 1B open for one of those guys down the road and trading Jeter, A-Rod, or Posada is not an option.


Sabathia did win the Cy Young in 2007 and probably would have won the NL Cy Young with the Brewers had he been traded a month earlier.

There was a time when Sabathia was 0-6 against the Yanks but that was early in his career and wasn't the same pitcher.


The yanks not going to mortagage the future with Posada at 1st especially with him saying that he does not want to ever go there if posada is not 100% he will be handled. You mention Pettite and I'm glad you did becasue it falls into right what I'm been talking about all day.

Pettite and Lowe is the same age and Both is on par of equal like stats Yes lowe dominated somewhat in the NL but so did Pettite. you sign Lowe for 16 mil your going to have to sign Pettite for 14-15 so you add those two pacts plus a CC and yes the bank is closed most likely or is it . even with these starters the defense is still weak Pettitie is going to give up 3 - 4 runs on avg maybe more but the lack of clutch hitting is a cancer added with a disgusting defence.

Wanna know why the season was doomed ? Between erratic pitching and not in the clutch hitting this team was doomed. This team was BEAT down by better FUNDAMENTAL TEAMS.

Minn survived becasue they had good pitching aimed by great defense boston got better because they improved their defense which in turn made the great SP's they have better this also applied to the 2nd half dodgers.


Posada doesn't want to be a first baseman right now because he doesn't see himself as anything but a catcher. But if he can't physically do the job as a catcher - he's not going to have much of a choice but to switch.

And Jeter re-signing a contract after the 2010 season might be contingent on him moving to another position.

He'd be a better first baseman than an outfielder.

BTW, the difference between Pettitte and Lowe is that Pettitte will get a one-year deal.

Personally, as I've said many many times, I'm not the least bit impressed with Lowe and I'd rather Cashman acquire someone else.

Swisher is their first baseman for 2009 and he'll be a lot better with the leather than Giambi.

They are also letting Abreu walk which will improve their defense in RF.

Not signing TEX, so that 1st base can be open for Jeter\Posada\or A-Rod several years down the road, is absolute lunacy. Among all current MLB 1st basemen, I would rank TEX #2, and Pujols #1. If the Yanks can't afford both CC and TEX, I would go with TEX and 2 cheaper free agent starters. many good opinions and I guess mine falls right in the middle of most of you, as I agree with most, but there is always at least one small thing we disagree on.

For me, I want pitching to be the ultimate priority. You all know I will lose my mind if CC goes elsewhere because I believe this was part of the Yankees thinking when they had a chance to get Santana last year. They probably thought by not making the trade (which I wanted them to do. for the record):
1. Hold on to the youngsters they think/thought so much of.
2. Just get a younger version in a year when CC was a FA, without giving up the youngsters or "paying twice" as we like to say.

CC is a must in my book, but after him they need another strong starter and that is where a trade could be made because I honestly don't like any of the FA options all that much, at least not at the years they want although I could live with Sheets for two years.

Now, all this negativity about CC not wanting to play in NY is nonsense to me until he actually comes out and says it. His silence is simply a business strategy. Maybe he doesn't want to feel that the Yankees are his only choice and give them that power? Maybe he wants to at least come here knowing he got them to go higher in salary than their original offer? His agent surely needs to justify his existence doesn't he? I mean, if you went to buy a car and you made an offer and the salesman said "done deal" without even countering, wouldn't you walk out of that dealer wondering if you could have gotten a better deal?
It is simply posturing on CC's part and right how they have zero leverage as long as another team is not even close in the bidding because the Yanks could easily call his bluff- Let's face it, we think CC has all the leverage because the Yanks desperately need him, but they have some too as the team with the ability to make his great, great, great grandchildren rich.

Tex: If you have a chance to sign him, do it. I don't give a damn about payroll as long as I am paying big bucks for tickets. This guy is the perfect fit for the team and signing him would be awesome- but pitching has to come first, in my opinion.

You dont pass on a player like Tex, for a couple of old guys who you hpoe can play first base. You get Trx

So - according to Gammons Sabathia is going to wait to see whether or not the LA teams make him an offer. Now don't get antsy, according to Gammons the Texas Rangers and Red Sox are still going to find a way to complete the A-Rod trade.

On Tex - to me passing on him would be eerily similar to when the Yankees passed on Beltran. They had the chance to stabilize a position with no clear incumbent (Bernie's days were coming to an end) and decided not to go that route.

Here's a thought:

Yankees don't get CC - say he decides to take less money and go home.

Trade Cano to LA for Kershaw and the ugly contract of either Juan Pierre or Andruw Jones
Sign Tex
Sign Hudson
I would say trade Matsui but I don't know what they could get for him or if he would accept a deal - I have no qualms about putting him in a bench role.
Sign one of the other FA pitchers (Andy, Ollie, Sheets, Lowe)

So we're looking at:



Damon - LF
Hudson - 2b
Jeter - ss
Alex - 3b
Tex - 1b
Nady - RF
Posada - C
Jones - CF
Swisher - DH

Yankee Bri

Ted Lilly WANTED TO PLAY HERE - REALLY BAD!!! I know, I know, he's not the ACE we're looking for. But, he sure could have filled one of those 3-5 holes for us!!! And, IF we'd have gotten him and Santana like I would have done IF I'd have been the GM, just imagine how much better off we'd be right now???

We'd be sitting on a rotation of Santana, Wang, Lilly, and Joba. And, we'd be sitting here right now looking for ONE more FA SP with Pettitte still in the option bin. And, even if we stuck out on a CC or Burnett, we'd still end up with a rotation of Santana, Wang, Pettitte, Joba and Lilly. Not too bad IMHO.

Other altneratives at 2nd (if you don't like Hudson) is to swing a deal.

Humberto Sanchez should be able to get the Yankees either an Asdrubal Cabrera (Cle) or Jose Lopez (Sea) or if you wanted just more offense, see what the asking price is for Dan Uggla.

Yeah Viper,

I don't know what CC is thinking, BUT YOU DO. Hahahaha

And then, you start with the "retard" name calling AGAIN! Seems you're always the one to start the name calling stuff and then after 4 or 5 posts, you blame me for starting it.

Again, Hahahaha

I don't profess to know what anybody is THINKING. I DO make observations and express opinions based on what I see and hear. I also make comments on what I WOULD DO or DONE IF I were the GM. That's really no different than many on here (you included) proposing wishful trades.

I should point out in my Tex/Beltran comparision - I would be less irked if the Yankees passed on Tex for CC than I was when the passed on Beltran for Johnson.

CC obviously is a long term investment in the rotation whereas Unit was not.

Jeter likely won't be a first baseman for the Yankees - his bat won't translate. It's actually more likely that he winds up at DH than any other position in the field - but that's not going to be for a while anyway - at least not until a better option at SS emerges.

Whatever, Rick.

How many times have you said that Sabathia doesn't want to come to NY?

I don't claim to know what he's thinking, but I do know he's never said or even remotely indicated that he doesn't want to pitch in NY.

Then again, you're the guy who was starting to fit him for Angels' red just last week and I told you those rumors of Angels' interest were BS.

The only thing we know is that he'd prefer to pitch in California because he lives there.

You're the one connecting dots and drawing conclusions that aren't there.

BTW, you must not be that observant because you'd know by now that I don't propose wishful trades. That's Chip's thing - not mine.


Jeter's bat doesn't translate to DH either. The DH is usually one of the better hitters, especially one with power, on the team.

The outfield doesn't really suit Jeter.

But he's not bloody likely to put on a different uniform so they'll have to move him somewhere.

The guys on Newsday's Final Score blog address the prospect of signing CC and Tex.

In a nutshell, Anthony Rieber says what most of us say- get 'em both!


That's all fine and dandy, but it's quite obvious that I've come to accept something that most Yankee fans haven't.

And that is the realization the Yankees don't have an unlimited payroll. I know you keep saying they print money in the basement and you are not exactly that far from the truth.

But the front office has said for awhile now that they plan on lowering the payroll and Hal has also made that point crystal clear.

I said many many times during the season (and long before any economic downturn) that they weren't going to spend wildly as most Yankee fans anticipated and I think the non-offers of arbitration to any eligible Yankees is a pretty good sign that my intuition was correct.

So basically it comes down to signing Sabathia or Teixeria and there's really no contest which guy should be their top target.

I'm just fairly certain that it won't be both. This team needs pitching - badly. Teixeira is a want - not a need.

That's why signing him doesn't make any sense, especially at the expense of the rotation - which everyone but Mr. Talker would admit is unquestionably their biggest need.


I just read the Reiber post and he's got one major flaw with his strategy.

His proposal is a thin rotation and compares them to the Phillies since they won the WS.

Well, the problem with that comparison is that the Phillies didn't have the Rays and Red Sox in their division - both teams with far better rotations than the Yanks. The NL East ain't the AL East.

And the Yanks will not get to the postseason without a rotation that rivals the Rays and Red Sox. They can't win the AL East by slugging their way through 162 games.

Nice try, Rieber - but that's a doomed strategy.

The Yanks will be in the playoff hunt all season if they stack the rotation. They can find another bat before the trade deadline if they need it.

If Aceves is as decent as he was last year and the Yanks follow what Rieber says and they pick up a guy who can log innings in the back of the rotation, then I don't see them as being that thin, they could have:


I don't see that as that bad at all to tell you the truth.

I understand Hal wants to lower payroll, but that can come next year when they remove Damon, Matsui and Pettitte from the payroll.
To me, the most interesting thing coming up for the Yanks contract-wise is what to do with Jeter. What if he insists on a five year deal? How can they say no when A-Rod is signed through age 42 or so.
I think that is going to be very interesting.


There's a big difference between a reliable 200 IP starter and several question marks and it could be a big enough difference between playing in October next season or staying home given the strength of the division.

It's also easier to lower payroll when you have $80M coming off the books than $45M with Matsui, Damon, Nady, and Pettitte gone.

And Cashman is going to have to work some magic with their outfield situation - which is one of the primary reasons I advocated trading for Matt Kemp.

It appears to me that they are likely to lower payroll this season and increase payroll a year from now.

I don't know Jim buddy, I think you better start setting us up for some appointments. Or at least get the number to some good psychoanalysis place?? Better yet, how about a nice room with a couple of pads in there to just stay for a weekend or two...or thee. CC is starting to scare me a little. I remain positive, but it's getting harder guys!!

I don't know Jim buddy, I think you better start setting us up for some appointments. Or at least get the number to some good psychoanalysis place?? Better yet, how about a nice room with a couple of pads in there to just stay for a weekend or two...or thee. CC is starting to scare me a little. I remain positive, but it's getting harder guys!!

Don't know if any of you guys are as excited a I am about the new stadium, but here's a link with a couple of pics. Good stuff!

Citi field looks nice, but a tad smaller than The Stadium. Lol our center field HD screen is the size of the screen at citi plus whatever surrounds the screen. Wow The Stadium is going to be incredible.
Check it out:




The Yanks need to show some hair, and sign both CC and TEX. It is this lack of stones that has allowed the R\Sox to pull away from us the last few seasons. The R\Sox traded young players for Beckett, we balk at doing likewise for Santana. They by far overpaid for Dice K, we go bargain basement with Igawa. Now is the Yankee opportunity to balance the scales by signing both CC and TEX. We all know if The Boss was still calling the shots, we could count on these 2 guys wearing pinstripes to open the New Yankee Stadium

"We go bargain basement with Igawa" Are you serious? Do you remember the bidding for Dice-K? The prediction was $20M for the posting fee and the Yanks bid $30M. Nobody ever thought a team would bid what the Red Sox did- $51M or whatever it was.

Judging by the production the Yanks have gotten from Igawa, I'd say they seriously over bid for him, wouldn't you?

I had another one Michael. It came to me last night. I wouldn't so much call it a dream as a vision. A vision my friends of things to come.

I was sitting back. Relaxing in my favorite chair in the living room. The TV on, watching highlights of my Giants kicking the ever loving stuffing out of McNabb. When all of a sudden Chris Berman cut off the highlight.

Berman: "He could. go. all. the....wait a minute, we're cutting live to Peter Gammons with some important news on the New York Baseball Yankees...Peter..WHAT."

Gammons: "Well Boom, I'm here in Las Vegas *cough* Go Boston *cough* where we have some important *cough* I love you Dustin Pedroia *cough* news about the New York Yankees *cough* and you too Youk *cough*. It seems that the Yankees and Tigers have agreed to a trade that will send Phillip Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Andrew Brackman and Bradley Suttle to Detroit for Curtis Granderson and Nate Robertson. *cough* Yankees suck Boston rules *cough*. I'll have more information as this develops *cough* Go Sox *cough*.

Berman: Thanks to the Hall of Famer - get that cough looked at.

Now, he might have said "to Cleveland for Grady Sizemore and Asdrubal Cabrera which means Robinson Cano is on his way to the Dodgers for Clayton Kershaw - but frankly my dreams don't come with TiVo so you'll have to live with not knowing for sure.

The point is the R\Sox gave up whatever was necessary, (both players and $$$), to get the players they needed to win a championship. They packaged young promising players Hanley Ramirez\Anibal Sanchez to get Beckett, and way overpaid to make sure they would get Dice K. The Yanks refused to part with young promising players, (Hughes\Kennedy\Melky), to get Santana, and finished out of the playoffs. Now they must bite the bullet and spend $$$ big time, in order to get both CC and TEX and stay competitive. The R\Sox were bold, paid the price, (young players\$$$) and were rewarded handsomely. The Yanks should follow the same path.

An interesting tidbit - Only 3 players have had at least 100 RBI during the last 6 consecutive years. AR and Pujols are two of them. Anyone have a guess as to who the 3rd one was?

Bobby Abreu!

Okay, the strategy of buying players just wasn't working for the Yanks, or they made the wrong decisions such as Vazquez or Schilling or Randy Johnson over Beltran etc.
However, we are in agreement now as I am on board with Sabathia and Tex- two free agents who fit the team's needs perfectly and are still in their prime years.

Jim A

Correct, and with our "choking" RISP offense, I find that a big problem. All the more reason to make sure we get Tex. Yes, along with the needed SP'ing!

I'm going to keep beating the starting pitching drum and link to a post by Was Watching comparing the Yanks and Red Sox since 2003.

Here's his very predictable conclusion:


Well, there it is, huh? Since 2004, the Yankees have had just 7 “solid” seasons from a starting pitcher (coming from 5 starters) whereas the Red Sox have had 14 “solid” seasons from a starting pitcher (coming from 8 starters).

This puts the Yankees at 28% for a success rate whereas the Red Sox have a success rate of 56% over the same period of time. Do the math on that one - it’s double.

So, if you want to know why the Red Sox have two World Series rings since 2004 and the Yankees have zero, part of the reason is the fact that Boston (and their front office) has lapped the Yankees (and their front office) in terms of identifying and retaining quality starting pitching.

And, unless the Yankees organization can close this front office efficiency gap with respect to filling out a starting rotation, don’t expect New York to catch up to Boston, any time soon, in that ring tally board.


Funny, I don't see the word offense in there at all. Focus on what needs to be fixed and forget about Teixeira.

Signing Sabathia would cross Teixeira off the to do list anyways.

We need Kat and some HOT STOVE news!!!! Question for everyone ... would it be so terrible if we only inked CC and nobody else? (I'm counting Andy as a returnee) ... rotation of CC-Wang-Joba-Andy-Hughes (w/ Kennedy, Aceves, et al) to come into play for that 5th starter role when needed.

Not signing Tex (who I want) does clear up 1B for Jeter in probably 3 of years ... face facts ... Jeter CAN'T go anywhere else ... he will be an all-time great Yankee and he won't be playing SS at 38. He'll be 35 this year. Where else would he go? He's not playing the OF at 37+, he can't go to 3B, 2B is a possibility if Cano is traded and DH is not the right fit for him. 1B is the only option and if Yankee brass have thought about this already and decided not to sign Tex b/c of that then kudos to them. They probably figure Swisher for 2-3 yrs. at 1B w/ some doses of Miranda and hand the job to Jeter in 2011? 2012?

As for the pitching, I'd rather have just CC then overpay for bums like Lowe, Perez, and an injury prone Burnett. Next year's FA crop is absolutely dynamite for SP's (Beckett, Lackey, Hudson, Webb, Myers, Escobar, Harden etc.) and when Andy walks after this year we have a rotation from 2010 on that looks like this:

1 of the top FA pitchers from my list

THAT'S SICK RIGHT THERE!!! Once again, pitching wins championships kids.

I'll take TEX, SHEETS, and PEREZ or LOWE over just CC. That's an easy choice to make.

Perez is not an option and Lowe isn't exactly top notch either.

If they continue to assemble mediocre rotations, they will continue to get mediocre results.

C'mon, this is as close to basic Baseball 101 as it gets.

Pitching and defense wins championships. It's amazing how many people still don't understand that yet.

New thread ----------------------------------->

Viper you moan about Pitching and defense but yet our defense sucks so even you is speaking in circles with that one.

Yes we all know the team needs SP, and yes we know it is of great importance but guess what buddy , if the offense is shaky and the defense is awful these pitchers will lose alot of games they should not have lost. ANd if a pitcher looks at this fact and realizes that they may in fact stand to lose with this formula then they might either.

1. INCREDIBALLY OVERCHARGE for their services.

2. Turn down the Team

3. Accept and become a disgruntled palyer

Face it this team needs help across the board. and if you can get three starting pitchers then cool.

As of now if the team signs only CC and Pettite then the risk factor looms LARGE as 3/5 of the rotation become alarming risky as Pettite , Joba , Hughes is a risk, Hughes should not be told that a rotation spot is his as of now and if the other prime FA sign else where then pitchers like Randy Wolf become over night Sandy Koufax in terms of desperation and will be OVERPAID!

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