Over the past couple of weeks, the Knick players have reunited up at the MSG Training Center for some workouts. Nate Robinson has been there pretty much all summer -- he's gone back to his home in Washington twice and also took a family vacation to Puerto Rico with Eddy Curry's tribe -- and seems determined to show his critics (which, I think you guys know by now, include me) that he is taking his career more serious now.
Zach Randolph apparently hasn't included himself in these runs. In fact, Z-Bo hasn't made his way to New York since he was introduced to the media at his press conference after the draft. Well, we were expecting to hook up with him a few weeks ago at a Knicks camp in Manhattan, but he, you see, he..um..his flight, you know, he either missed it or it was cancelled or something.
Wonderful start.
But I'm hearing Curry has showed off a new dimension to his game: an outside J. Nate says that Eddy is doing so comfortably within a scrimmage. A little catch-and-shoot. A pop-out. A little Patrick Ewing-style.
We know Eddy has a nice touch. He's not the quickest guy, but he moves well for a big man. Despite his three-point bomb that beat Milwaukee late in the season (Still waiting for someone to tell me why the Bucks had players defending the empty paint on that play), clearly this is a part of his game Curry needed to develop and he said he would. Of course I haven't been present to see it, so I'm just relaying what I've heard. But it's encouraging news. For Curry and Randolph to work, Eddy needs to be able to go high-post and hit a few 15-footers.
Just as long as he doesn't start falling in love with it.
At these workouts, just about all of the regulars have been present at one time or another: Curry, Robinson, Marbury, Crawford, Richardson, Lee, Balkman, Collins, Chandler, etc. Word is sometimes Isiah has even jumped into the fray.
Isiah has also been out to Vegas to keep tabs on David Lee at the USA basketball practices, where he is playing on a development squad that scrimmages against the varsity.
* *
The Demetris Nichols situation is interesting, to say the least. The kid has no interest in Europe, that's obvious. What you wonder now is what do the Knicks do with him? Clearly there is a log-jam in the backcourt and Nichols would be the lowest man on the totem pole behind Marbury, Jamal, Nate, Collins and Fred Jones. So then what? Do you eat a roster spot and put him in the D-League for a while? Do you trade him?
If you're asking me, I'd keep the kid. Put him in training camp and let him compete. You can never have too many shooters. Nichols has a lot to learn when it comes to taking good shots and not forcing (as we saw in the summer league), but he does have a stroke. I think it's worth having a rookie with a J on the bench than an out-of-shape veteran. It's worth one spot on your roster to invest in the future. I still believe the better move is to have open comp in training camp and dump a veteran who doesn't show up in shape and ready to play and contribute.
Now if Geoff Petrie takes a liking to the kid...
* *
Some thoughts on the Marbury/Vick stuff:
I want to keep the parameters of this blog set within the basketball boundaries. Nothing political, nothing racial. We're here to talk ball and the Knicks. I think most of you agree there are other places in the blogsphere for debating all of the socialogical issues that exist in our world. If you want to opine on Michael Vick, check out Bob Glauber's blog What About Bob? and have it out there.
But I will address a different issue than dog-fighting and the more heinous crime of how the dogs were tortured and discuss something I at least have an educated opinion on: the media asking Stephon Marbury about Vick.
It's a Catch-22 for a reporter when it comes to Marbury now, especially after some of the bizzarre things he's done and said this summer. Part of you wants to avoid him because you don't want him to say something stupid and turn it into a senseless frenzy, but really part of your job is to be there in case he does say something stupid (aka "makes news"), because if you're the only one who doesn't have it, you're in trouble with your boss.
I understand the thought that some of you have offered: why ask Marbury about Michael Vick? They are not teammates. I don't even know if they know each other. They play two different sports not even in the same city. There is no relevance other than the fact that they are both professional athletes.
It's obviously a bait question...the dangerous tool in our toolbox. Ask him about something controversial and see what he says. If you watch the clip, the guy holding the mic is nodding along with what Stephon is saying. That suggests he's agreeing, even though later he likely acted appalled by it, especially as he was explaining it to his editor. They knew they had a story.
What's even worse than just standing there nodding as Marbury said what he said, no one took on Stephon or asked him to clarify. That's something every one of us among the Knicks beat - well, almost all of us - would do instinctively. Without question, you can't let him walk away after saying what he said. You can't follow up with, "So about your new sneaker line..." or "How would you feel about playing with Kobe?"
At this point in his life, Stephon Marbury is not going to listen to someone in PR or a "publicist" to tell him not to comment on controversial issues or politics. It's true, why not also ask him what he thinks about global warming or Iraq? No matter what he says, it's just one man's opinion. We as people put too much stock into what famous people say, whether they are celebrities, rock stars or pro athletes, as if they have some sort of authority in intelligence because of their public status.
We are not biographers or publicists. We are not here to make friends or cut deals. One of the many important reasons for media is to use our inside access to educate. Not necessarily to teach what is right or wrong, but to offer the differences that exist in our world and the reasons behind it. Not everything is explainable. But through reading, you get a better understanding. You can decide from that whether or not you, for instance, admire or appreciate the person we have interviewed or you can form your own opinion about an issue that is being covered.
You know, important stuff like should David Lee be traded for Ron Artest.
The worst kind of reporting is when you're left wondering why the story was even written, such as why Marbury was asked about Michael Vick in the first place. I'm not at all trying to shield Stephon from the ignorance he portrayed in his comments. I'm only acknowledging that there is also guilt in the questioner. But the questioner is looking for a sound-byte because you, the reader, is looking for something juicy to read and to talk about. The cycle. And Stephon has showed us this summer that he can be suckered into playing into the cycle.
It's his responsiblity to put a stop to it if he so desires by simply declining to answer the question (he often does it with us). To solely blame the media is not accurate. As they say, don't hate the player, hate the game.
But to make Mark and his friends feel more comfortable, I'll offer this quote that takes that point a step further:
"The men with the muck-rake are often indispensable to the well-being of society," Theodore Roosevelt once said, "but only if they know when to stop raking the muck."
That's the fine line we walk in this business.
Comments (63)
What are you talking about Alan? Marbury is right. This is a country where Bush and Cheney go out hunting and actually manage to shoot other people in the process and it's all laughed about in the media. But dog fighting is heinous crime. I actually think that the laws about dog fighting are more about gambling or control of gambling then animal rights. It's all about money not animals thats why the feds are all ver it.
Steady:
Why is Warrick Dunn a "turncoat?" Because he abides by the law? Why can't black people have REAL role models like Warrick Dunn, Dick Parsons, Larry Elder, State Sen. Ron Rice, etc?
This whole animal rights argument is bogus, people breed and slaughter animals and birds in massive quantities (millions of tons)for thousands of years. Heck we slaughter other humans in Iraq and elsewhere and ofcourse Michael Vick has to be the bad guy. How wonderful.
Its very easy to jump on Marbury as he continues to say really dumb things. Of course, not much of it has any relation to baskeball, but so be it. The better lesson hear (for athletes) is that their role model should be Derek Jeter. Don't speak to the press unless really pressured. And when you do, as DJ does, just throw off a few platitudes. "We gave it 100%." "We continue to work hard." "I don't want to comment on other players, in other sports."
It would be boring for readers and writers, but its the smart way to go when you have writers who's only joy (see Frank Isola) is to be negative and nasty.
I was worried about this 'Eddy adding a J' thing when Isiah mentioned it last year. How about adding some D and rebounding? On offense, he looks like a 7 foot Barishnikov (spelled phoetically), and on D he's always a step slow. As for his rebounding, he needs to take lessons on taking routes to the ball as soon as the shot goes up. Barkley, Rodman and Lee have that ability. I wish Eddy spent all summer having someone shoot bricks (insert pot shot at random Knick here) while he rebounded them. Oh well.
As for Marbury, his opnion wasn't all that appaling. He thought it was a sport like hunting. The point made sense. He didnt say he condoned them. Another example of angry media looking for a story. Thanks to Alan for offering a more balanced stance on him comments.
"I want to keep the parameters of this blog set within the basketball boundaries. Nothing political, nothing racial. We're here to talk ball and the Knicks. I think most of you agree there are other places in the blogsphere for debating all of the socialogical issues that exist in our world. If you want to opine on Michael Vick, check out Bob Glauber's blog What About Bob? and have it out there."
Alan,
With all due respect, you have posed an unattainable and unrealistic standard. First of all, unlike other blogs, your posters have shown you the respect by following your lead blogs. The dogfighting discussion was initiated by you. Check the headline of your past blog above.
Second, as you or any baller well knows, basketball encompases life. Some of us believe basketball is life and touches every aspect of our society including class, the economy, race, etc. There is no way possible to discuss Knick basketball without touching on other issues such as Annucha v. Zeke, gambling, Zach's arrest record, etc. That will never happen.
Third, as you should know by now, it is easier to lead by example than by dictate. Even on a blog. Most of us respect your opinion and will follow your lead in terms of expressing our views with civility and intelligence. The guys here have done a great job. But New Yorkers are some of the most intelligent fans in the world -- certainly more intelligent than the press we are subjected to. But, many of us are here because you are a fan and as an intelligent fan, you should know that voices will not be silenced.
However, I hear you and I will take your advice about taking my view to another blog, although it was in response to your lead.
Peace.
P.S. Thank you for the journalism insight.
I remember in the civil rights era when this government attack our people with dogs. Just because we were trying to be included in this so call american dream. It's an animal. Where is P.E.T.A when these animals maul innocent kids to death? Why aren't they outside of every supper market that sell meat? This is no different from when towns closed down and brought their children to witness lynching. the only difference is they use the media and the injustice system to do their bidding. Dogs are animal not pets. You all try to make them into house hold pets but they are no different to wolves or coyotes.
Two words regarding Steph re Vick: Gotcha Journalism.
It was a trap and Steph fell in, pure and simple. As Alan points out, such questions have become a staple in every journalist's toolbox at this point. It's up to those being interviewed to avoid those traps, and Steph was unprepared.
OTOH, I'm liking the fact that Steph is trying (clumsily, but still trying) to be open with the media and the public. There have been too many NYK players in the past who have kept a wall between themselves and the fans, and it always generates some resentment, even if it's sometimes misunderstood and misplaced (see Ewing, Patrick).
On the bigger issue - I'm a dog lover, and what Vick's been charged with repulses me. But there are other places to vent about that particular subject. Here's hoping the legal system performs as it's supposed to.
On D-Knick - I say keep him on the basis of his game in Summer League. But his new agent's gotta tell him to calm down and back off the demands. It's well-known that Zeke isn't crazy about being challenged, and making demands before even setting foot on the training camp floor isn't going to earn him any points.
Go to camp, earn your spot, and carry the ball bag out when you're done, Rook. It's great to have confidence in your own abilities, but D-Knick's gotta get a little perspective.
DON ADO
Agree, someone should brief ol' Demtris on Trevor Ariza's fallout with LB and Isiah or when Isiah asked Mike Sweetney to play in the summer league and Sweetney said no. Isiah was like "well I respect his decision and trust that he will work hard in the offseason." a few months later he was moved to Chicago in the Eddy Curry trade.
But in general, I agree with Demetris from watching those 5 summer league games. He can ball in this league, Q was saying it, Malik was saying it, everyone they interviewed was like, yeah he's already been playing with NBA players and he's ready. He's tall, can play d, create his own shot. Fantastic jump shot, probably second best in the draft according to the rookie poll. Seems like a great guy to have this year considering the "pound the ball inside" philosophy of the upcoming season. It will be interesting to see how Isiah handles the situation. He doesn't always acquire the guys that I want, but he usually moves the guys I think need to go (James, Dickau in this case).
Oh, basketball?
Oh, that's what this blog is about...let me stretch my limbs and get comfortable...you'll see me later.
Sources: Knicks To Release Dickau
August 22, 2007 - 11:35 am
New York Post -
Rookie shooting guard Demetris Nichols refused the Knicks' request to play this season in Italy to solve their roster crunch - a denial that could shorten his Knicks career.
However, the Knicks will improve Nichols' chances of making the club by releasing point guard Dan Dickau in the next three weeks to reduce their roster to 16, according to sources.
"He's not going to go overseas," Nichols's agent, Bill Neff, told The Post. "He wants to play here right away."
The Post reported last month the Knicks were considering sending Nichols to Europe for a year. Neff claims Nichols' former agent, Bill Duffy, had a draft-night agreement with the Knicks that Nichols would play in Italy, prompting Isiah Thomas to trade for his rights.
Nichols fired Duffy last week. The Knicks will extend a tender offer to Nichols by Friday's deadline to retain his rights. Neff said Knicks VP Glen Grunwald told him Nichols may not make the team if he doesn't go to Europe.
Dickau's agent, Mark Bartlestein said, "We've talked, and Isiah is going to do the right thing and help him if it's not going to work out with the Knicks." [READ]
Lives:
I thought I was the only one that caught that restriction from our host.
I take offence to that sort of restriction. Basketball encompasses life. Who are you to tell the bloggers what can and cannot be discussed? In the process of conversation, many topics get thrown in. In this society, RACE affects many decisions that are made, hence gets to be an integral part of many discussions that starts with sports and the Knicks.
Come again?!
Freedom of expression and conversation.
.7.
the significance of .7, you ask?
.7 is the combined average blocks per game last season of this year's starting power forward and center for the knicks. I suggest we try to improve upon that number, though I'm not sure how. Guys like balkman, nichols or chandler can help us out with a block here and there. Randolph and Curry are all-stars in my opinion, but they have the same defensive liability.
Defense is desire. You have to want to stop the guy with the ball, and you have to know how to do it. Our perimeter defense was pretty bad last year too. so many open jump shots, even I could have made some of those shots the Kopono-types were given. E city get a j, that's great, but someone (should it have been Patrick, or Oak, Isiah?) help him out defensively, please.
RE: Vick's case and Steph's comments
He is entitled to express his opinion, and see his point
this country is way out of wack, look at how this governmemnts(State and Local and Fed) supports the murder of fetuses and how their bodies are mutilated for stem-cell research. People spend lots of time focusing on animals that when left alone can fend for themselves in their natural environment.
Re: Nichols I agree with Don, if the reports are true he needs a dose of reality
Oakley wants to join Ewing in Orlando. As a player.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orl-magic2207aug22,0,7009915.story
"Orlando has a good young team with a bright future -- I like Dwight Howard -- but I could help them develop some heart and some toughness," he said Tuesday on his cell phone from Las Vegas, where he was watching the USA Basketball team and conducting personal workouts. "I'm available. And I'm in shape, better shape than most of the guys in the league today."
this is just what I was talking about. heart and toughness is exactly what ewing and oak personified. people called me a hater for questioning why Isiah didn't pick up Ewing or Oak to help the team with their obvious deficiencies. they end up talking to the enemy despite the fact that they were sitting in celebrity row at MSG for a good portion of last season.
Hey alan, is the 73 comments from the starbury dog-fight comment post a high for this blog? I noticed some of the other NBA info sites on the web are linking to your blog. respect!
Well said Alan. The 24-7 reporting of sports has changed the way we look at athletes, i.e. Randolph Morris' driving charges, which wouldn't have been a blip on the radar 20 yrs ago. You're right about placing too much importance upon the comments of athletes; Starbury's knuckle-headed comments shouldn't matter any more than anyone else's.
Back to hoops, I am eager to see what Nichols does during training camp, which is different from playing against other rookies and free agents in the summer league. Nichols won't be facing guys like Ron Artest's brother( Who looked like the second coming of "Dinner Bell" Mel Turpin.). Though Jerome James...
I agree with Starburyfan that the Knicks, especially Eddy Curry, need to improve their defense. Where's Oak when you need him?
If people can't see the difference between dog fighting and hunting... they lack a shitload of insight. That's on them.
Steph is an idiot.. he should of kept his mouth shut... this is just another reason so many fans are waiting for this idiot to go to Italy or be traded
Alan,
From the other post, I was rushing you through your lunch to reclaim the keys and talk b-ball. I did not see that you had posted early in the AM as promised.
I suspect a bit of acquiescence to the blog cancers of cyberspace in your dis-invitation to address the non-basketball elements in your posts. You're the host; you set the tone. And with your street creds, surely you know the words: "Don't start none, won't be none". Say, hey, if you're getting flack from the suits in the burbs--we can feel you on that tip at which point we should all be having an "offline conversation" about what's good with the following you're developing. Have your people go back and read the depth of the folks Newsday has attracted here (from all persuasions and perspectives). Kudos to you and NYK BASKETBALL.
With that said, thanks for taking up the summer report card on the players. We need a look-see on JC or is he resigned to the likelihood that he will be in LALA Land as a headliner in LA for Kobe beef in NY?
KFL
Dano,
I must admit that I lack insight, because I cannot see the difference between hunting and dog-fighting. They both lead to the death of animals, Please explain. Also, please factor in that I am slower then most intellectually, because I cannot see the difference between "water and ice" or "crack" and "cocaine", other then the mandatory sentencing.
Peace
the man with the $15 snekers has a 10 cent brain. considering the way marbury has performed for the knicks, it's surprising vick didn't try to electrocute and drown him.
Does anyone ever chuckle or snicker of guffaw at any of these lame ass one-liners?
They never approach being clever. Trust me. I did tell you if they were.
You'd be better served sticking your middle finger up your butt and posting "I just stuck my middle finger up my butt...Isnt that funny!? hahaha"
That would make me crack a grin.
Marbury was speaking his mind.
For all you people out there that are saying he should've kept his mouth shut...here's a little insight.
Why should Steph keep his mouth closed about dog fighting.
Are you guys that brainwashed?
Marbury can speak about whateva he wants to.
This is a free country and the rest of you house ni**as need to grow up.
Keep talking Steph and forget all these people here saying you should be quiet.
Dog fighting is a sport...killing dogs is a crime.
I'm so glad the NAACP is sticking up for Vick so he can play football again.
He is clearly the most exciting player in the NFL if not sports...not the best !!!! The most exciting player to watch hands down...
He made one mistake...grow up people...
Your not Jesus and nobody answers to you.
I agree with Starburyfan. As good as the starting frontcourt looks on offense, the Knicks will go nowhere with their interior defense. Also both Eddy and Zach have similar offensive games. i would trade one of them for Jermaine, who lead the lead in blocks, and get you double digit rebounds and does not need to be in the low block to be effective. With him and perharps Artest taking care of perimeter defense, we should be championship contenders. Just a thought.
Once again, the media is thinking for all you geniuses that think Steph has no brain.
Look into his comments carefully and you'll see that what he said does make sense!
We're letting the media decide for us what is idiotic and what is prudent. Steph is no Rhodes scholar by any means, but I see nothing wrong with what was said.
This leads me to question: Who has no brains?
Don't believe the hype! The media is leading you down their desired road. Think for yourself!
Great point African !!!!!
have a problem with what Marbury said because he is echoing perhaps the single-most important idea that is damaging urban communities: condoning illegal activity. Until the community starts to take responsibility for the actions of its residents and stops blaming other factors, the problems will persist.
"I think it's tough that we build Michael Vick up and then we break him down."
Wrong again Steph. Michael Vick built himself up with his ability on the football field and tore himself down due to his criminal activity. I certainly believe that Vick had no idea that if he were caught he would face Federal charges, but he financed the operation so he's responsible. Oakley financed car washes. A-Rod owns a Mercedes dealer in Texas. Vick financed dogfighting. He made the wrong decision and deserves punishment, not sympathy. And second chances are earned not "deserved" as I've heard in the media this week.
To anyone that thinks Vick "deserves" a second chance, would you knowingly hire a convicted felon? If the answer is yes, then why do ex-cons have such a hard time finding work? What about their second chance?
well, I wrote at least 3 posts about the actual knick basketball team, but people keep bringing it back to a guy's comments about yet another guy's actions.
for your perusal if you've the time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_sport
And I thought c*ck throwing was just what Isola did in his spare time away from the daily news.
"It seems like Michael Vick is going to jail for dog fighting. Hopefully, they won't have guard dogs."
-Jon Stewart
African, Lives – I think Alan was only trying to steer things, not censor them. I also think there’s an important distinction here. There have certainly been times when racism was relevant to the topic in previous blogs. Because it was tied to the basketball issue that launched it. It may have been Isiah’s treatment in the press, or whatever. I don’t think anybody would say that’s not an appropriate topic. But let’s face it, guys. There were also times on other blogs, when things descended into long arguments about the treatment of native Americans that had NOTHING to do with basketball. I should know. I was part of it at one point. I think all Alan was say was that there are more appropriate places for that sort of thing. And I would agree with that.
But, to be fair – you also don’t always know where a “conversation” is going to lead. And I certainly agree that should be OK, too. There have been times when things have just seemed to kick into another gear . . . it just takes on a life of it’s own . . . with a lot of people checking, back and forth. At that point, who’s to say what should or shouldn’t appropriate? This isn’t an argument for anarchy. I’m just saying . . . I don’t know . . . sometimes . . . stuff happens. And that’s good. I think, in general, if basketball gets us there . . . that's what we're here for. That's OK. At the same time, once you hang out there for a while, maybe it's time to try to steer things back to basketball . . .
By the way, Steady, the word you were looking for is:
Anthropomorphize: to give an inanimate object a human form or human characteristics.
God help me, but I agree with the point Marbury was trying to make. All kinds of animal torture is perfectly legal and on a much grander scale than dog fighting. We are all guilty of torturing defenseless animals for our food, clothing, medical experiments, etc. Why isn't Oscar Meyer in jail, or Farmer John?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1282796533661048967&q=earthlings&total=648&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
game on tonight fellas.
fiba. usa versus venuzuala (sp) 11pm. espn classic. it isn't nyk on msg, but at least it is all-star nba talent against other countries.
coach k says the only guys who have promised starting jobs are kobe, lebron and melo. the other two starters for tonight are rumored to be j kidd and d howard.
Thanks Trane.
I speak 4 languages and I don't know that word in either one. Heck, I'm going to type it in a speaking dictionary so that I can know how to pronounce it. Still, I'm steady on what I said about our host (as I steadily defend his tone and vision for this blog community) "don't start none, won't be none". I suppose that is why there is a rule about why we don't talk about sex, religion, politics and now "bloodsports" at other people's homes/blogs.
KFL
Yo John, thanks for posting that video. That part where the cow is thrown out of that contraption with its throat cut and its esophagus hanging out and left to die is some hardcore stuff. All because kosher meat is supposed to be untouched.
They let the animal writhe in pain and its tongue hanging out seemingly realizing that is dying. The throes of death, huh? Kind of makes you wonder what McDonald's has built it's enterprise on. How many cows are slaughtered in that exact manner in one day to feed these grossly obese population in America?
My point isn't that Vick is innocent. My point is that we are all guilty. No man can claim innocence just because "civilization" has allowed the murdering of animals to be confined to a certain cross section of the population. We have cow killing specialists which allows the rest of us to keep our hands clean and bellies full.
Don't sit there and claim ignorance. Don't sit there and claim someone who kills dogs is any worse than the person who consumes cows. There's a choice in what you consume just like there's a choice in the profession you lead. Own up to your slice of this "civilization" and stop demonizing those who you can't understand or relate to.
BIGPAY you said a mouthful @ 11:34. I couldn't agree with you more.
Everyone's out today:
Marbury did this. Sometimes it is better NOT to voice your opinion in public. People will tear you apart.I've never seen a dog fight so I will not cooment, for I don't know ALL the facts.I just hate to see MORE negative s--t around the Knicks. We have our own problems.
That being said, I agree with Jon's comment early Eddy should work on his "D". Yes he will need that "J" also.Now that we have Zach, we will score enough.Rebounding,"D" needed.If Artest comes aboard to add to Fred Jones,Balkman,Q(before he was hurt)we may be able to stop somebody.
And PLEASE keep D-Nick on the roster.
Write On BARF!!!!!
Hey Trane,
I hear you. I don't really have anything to add to my comments to Alan, except that I would restate to you what Steady said: "Don't start none, won't be none." Alan did initiate the conversation, so once you start a hot thread, you can't expect to control it when you have two or more people willing to discuss the issue. As you know from KK and stated above, you can't really control what people will agree to discuss. Of course, everyone can ignore a poster and his posts, but that rarely happens.
As I stated earlier, I would have been very happy not to deal with the Vick situation, but once a conversation is started I certainly expect to express myself until I am satisfied I have said all I needed to say and I have given every credible and respectful response it's just due.
I think the most we can expect of anyone is that we discuss matters civilly and collectively agree to ostracize anyone who wishes to defile the sanctity of this home. You really cannot control where discussions will go, especially after you start them.
If there is anything people should learn from this discussion is that there are certainly a wide range of opinion on dogfighting and to characterize any view as inferior or crazy begs fight.
Characterizations of Marbury as a crazy person with whacked opinions has far more to do with how people want to tear him down than the reasonableness of his positions. Given the attacks upon him as a star athlete,why shouldn't he be able to relate to how out of proportion Mike Vick is treated in accordance to the crime.
We all can try to steer the conversation, but we can't demand others to follow if they are not feel compelled to do so.
The current discussion is relevant because it regards our star basketball player and the relationship between the law, media, star athletes and the underground culture that has been created around dogfighting, a blood sport.
This entire Mike Vick situation is bulls**t....
I don't want to hear anything about animal cruelty.
I've seen pit bulls attack kids and entire family's.
He wasn't killing poodles or any other dogs...he was killing pitbulls.
I would've done the same thing. People actually raise and breed these dogs with the sole purpose of fighting other dogs.
Vick will have the last laugh in this situation.
the NAACP and the Player's Union will be sure of that.
He will serve his time and come back stronger than ever.
Oh yeah...
I forgot to mention that if this was Tom Brady or Brett Favre...they would not go to jail...
Let's not make this a racial thing LOL....
You know I'm telling the truth guys !!!!
Z-Bo has spent most of his off-season at his house in the Indianapolis area and likely won't come to NYC until as late as possible.
This is America where we are supposed to be civilized.Not some screwed up country in the Orient, or some unevolved third world nation.
Do you see dog on the menu at your local restaurant?
Dog fighting is cruel and inhumane as is drowning or electrocuting any animal.Remember,animals don't have intentions, and their behavior is learned.I blame the subhumans who raise dogs to fight or who condone that crap.
If your parents raised you to do nothing more than to fight, you might also have limited opportunities in life like some of the extremely ignorant idiots blogging here who find who could find this garbage to be acceptable.
I'll debate anybody on this subject,but first you must prove that your IQ is higher than the number on Marbury's jersey.
PS I believe in hunting when it is for survival, not for sport.
Imagine if animals could be armed?
How many pu**ies would still want to hunt for sport?
Sorry Alan,next time I PROMISE to talk about basketball only!!!
Gotta love BARF'S take on we are all guilty. How many of you eat Veal? I don't! They tie calf's legs together so they can't move and keep them void of light, so each moment of breath here on earth is pure agony..all for the sake of makeing the meat tendor! So all of you who who woof down veal and call out Vick, your glass house has a big crack in the attic!
Artest or Bust 2008!
Lives in NJ loves NY
Poodles could be raised to be vicious if that is all they are tought.
Don't blame pitbulls, there are plenty of people who have them as pets,and when raised compassionately, they are pretty much harmless.
You made one interesting comment when you said "people actually raise these dogs with the sole purpose of fighting other dogs" the key word being PEOPLE.
People are the problem.
And Steady,
Although the idea doesn't thrill me, cows are raised as farm animals for the purpose of being consumed.
Dogs are intended to be pets or companions here in this country.
If Michael Vick worked at a slaugterhouse during the offseason and followed the law while killing cows he would not end up in jail, but he did something very different.
If you study criminals,particularly murderers, you might be suprised to learn that many had started with cruelty to animals, and killing animals while they were young and all of that evolved into killing people.
"This is America where we are supposed to be civilized."
Tell that to the countries we've been invading and occupying. Over 600,000 human animals killed and counting.
"Do you see dog on the menu at your local restaurant?"
No, but in Jersey City there is this Chinese restaurant that I heard of that...
"you might also have limited opportunities in life like some of the extremely ignorant idiots blogging here who find who could find this garbage to be acceptable."
hey, welcome to our blog. now which of the aforementioned garbage do we find acceptable again? I don't ever recall stating that dog-fighting is an acceptable activity in this country or any other. So when you said idiots, you must have meant some others on this blog, as opposed to this here idiot.
"I'll debate anybody on this subject,but first you must prove that your IQ is higher than the number on Marbury's jersey."
So you work with the good people at Mensa, do you? That is, when you're not spending your spare time attacking people in the streets with fur coats on, like the rest of the fanatical nutjobs at PETA. Hey, where do I sign up to take your free IQ test so I can blog about the knicks again? I never knew that expressing opinions in America could be so painstakingly difficult, to have to take some schmoe's IQ test to qualify to write an opinion on a blog.
"Imagine if animals could be armed?"
Okay. I've got the picture in my mind, now what? I was having a hard time with the armed sea creatures until I thought back to when I watched the movie Austin Powers with the sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads. Oh wait it was ill-tempered sea bass.
"How many pu**ies would still want to hunt for sport?"
As far as I know it's very rare that women like to go hunting, but I live in the northeast. I have no idea how you guys run things down in the bible belt.
"Sorry Alan,next time I PROMISE to talk about basketball only!!!"
You'll have to do better than that, buddy. This is a knicks blog, so if you don't know your stuff, people will see right through you. Next time you come here, talk about the knicks, or take your nazi ass back to the sticks where they're still proud they voted for Bush in 2004. Better yet, just stick to the Ann Coulter blog and leave this knicks blog to the fans.
You act like we're all fighting dogs around here. We write about the knicks. From the looks of it, you don't belong here.
We all loved "Ol Yeller" and we all wish Vick would of owned da Dog that told the "SON OF SAM" to Kill People! Enough!
Time for some serious Knick emergency chat! Until Thomas Clarifies that it is his position to pass on Nichols, I will give him the benefit of doubt. I will say that if this speculation comes to be true, I will not support Thomas if this move blows up in his face! Davonn, I'll pull the trigger on your earlier proposal, and be happy with that senario! It sucks that no beat writer can come out and ask Zeke WTF? Don't we as hard core fans deserve an answer or update on speculation reguarding the Knicks? Is it affecting National security(besides us)? Alan, please be the first with the inside pass to what we as Knick fans want and deserve to know!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/21/AR2007082101977.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR
John,
Interesting post and I watched it thoroughly. I stand by my previous post. I'm human and a NYer. On both counts, I'm top of the heap and King of the F'n hill.
Is it me, an olp photo or does EC look heavier this summer and I don't mean muscle?
KFL
Steady
I had the same exact thought when I saw the photo of E city. I wonder if Alan just got it from last year, because he looks well over 300lbs in that photo. The nichols photos wasn't new, he's still wearing the syracuse jersey there.
Malik and Q both said he's in good shape, but it could just be lip service. Jerome James was supposed to be in shape coming in to camp last year and everyone knows how that went.
I wonder how the hypocrites of the world who want to humanize the reality that is blood sport in America, will act frpm their perch after reading this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2986955
I loved the last phrase.
KFL
Seems like it is narrowing down to Dickau, James, Cato not reupping and Green in the NBDL. Of course, all of this is fanatic speculation and not coveting other teams' stars or problem childs.
KFL
"Welcome to Gary and Mark. Get comfortable, get a feel for the place and if you don't like what you see, you're free to go."
Alan,
As per your direction above, I had chosen not to comment further on this blog site. A friend notified me about your most recent post, which clearly indicates that you cannot extend to me the same civil courtesy.
It seems rather apparent that, as the scribe who runs this blog, you have chosen to impose standards on your readers but to ignore those standards yourself. That, Alan, is called hypocrisy and, it should be noted, an outright abuse of the authority given to you by Newsday as the dean of the editorial content of this blog.
Since you seem rather enamored with the street thug lingo, which I find abhorrent, juvenile, and nothing short of atrocious journalism, I had taken your direction and ceased any and all comments about your writing style, or lack thereof, on this site. Please extend to me the same decency by no longer mentioning me, directly or otherwise, on this blog.
Quite frankly, I doubt that you have the strength of character to display such courtesy and basic professionalism, but perhaps you will prove me incorrect in my assessment of you in this instance.
If you cannot walk the veritable walk yourself, Alan, one suggests that you do not demand that others adhere to such requirements.
I believe this concludes our conversation on this matter.
Big ups Alan--in the BLOG.
Steady as it goes. Stay the course. Brings da news when you get it good.
KFL
Bottom line: Vick did this to himself
By Jemele Hill
Dear young, black men:
Today, many of you are angry. You are angry at a society that has swiftly and vigilantly punished a superstar quarterback for dogfighting, but often looks the other way as a grotesque number of black men die in the streets. You are angry at the NFL, which has punishments some of you feel unfairly targets those who look like you. You are angry at Michael Vick's buddies and criminal cohorts for "snitching" on Vick, noting that trainer Greg Anderson, a white man, sits in federal prison with his lips sealed, protecting Barry Bonds and refusing to cooperate with authorities.
AP Photo/Haraz N. Ghanbari
Michael Vick heightened the stereotypes of black men instead of eroding them.
You are feeling a lot of things -- some possessing merit -- but I caution you not to make Vick a martyr. Do not applaud him for taking his comeuppance like some modern-day gangster. Do not blame others for Vick's predicament when he alone should be held accountable for his actions.
Let this historic unraveling be a wake-up call for the young, black men caught up in the same lifestyle that claimed Vick. Let his prison sentence send the message that a continued allegiance to street culture successfully keeps young, black men frighteningly behind in American society.
As the Vick case shows, millions of dollars are little protection if a certain mentality remains. Until now, Vick was considered one of the lucky ones. He rose out of poverty to become one of the most mesmerizing athletes of our time. He went from nothing to millions. He wasn't the American dream, but the American reality. He had the support of a city, of a people and he struck a chord with many young, black men because they saw themselves in him -- rebellious, strong and heroic.
But Vick let you down. He betrayed you. He heightened the stereotypes of black men instead of eroding them. Racists certainly will feast on Vick, but he was the one who made himself an entrée.
You can say Vick was persecuted unfairly by the white media, say we should be more concerned with the war in Iraq than an illegal dogfighting ring or say his downfall wouldn't be a 24-hour news event if he were the highest-paid white quarterback.
But it's impossible to stand on moral high ground while trying to defend something so low. Vick did something wrong, something against the law, something disgusting and vile. Even worse, he appears to be the financial backer and mastermind behind the dogfighting ring.
I understand Vick's guilt is a tough, humbling thing to swallow because the one thing black men in this society understand is the feeling of being piled upon, discounted and discarded. Last year, several studies showed that American black men are failing at an alarming and heartbreaking rate. More than half of black men in the inner cities don't have a high school diploma. There are more black men in prison than in college. Everyone else in society -- whites, Latinos, women -- is gaining ground, but black men are falling further and further behind in virtually every category.
Black men have a history of being marginalized and demonized in the mainstream, so although your rush to defend Vick was misguided, it also was understandable.
But now that we know of his guilt and complicity, let's be honest and not use racism as an excuse. Let's not point to Rae Carruth, Ray Lewis and Leonard Little and cite their crimes -- as if wrongs can exonerate other wrongs. Racism isn't putting Vick in jail. Awful decisions did that.
Instead, let's attack this poisonous idea in the black community that equates only negatives with success. Surely, one reason Vick kept his circle of friends is because successful black people are pressured into keeping their toxic buddies around for the sake of "keeping it real" -- even though they've spent most of their lives trying to escape the street lifestyle in which many of those friends remain.
Of course, what's forgotten is that if Vick's "friends" truly cared about him, they never would have allowed him to jeopardize his freedom, NFL career and family for an illegal enterprise. A $100 million man involved in dogfighting isn't keeping it real. That's keeping it stupid.
I wanted to address this letter to young, black men because they fall victim to this mentality more so than any other group. It's not just black athletes facing a crisis but black men, period.
Vick was in a position to show that young, black men are not something to be feared. But instead of leading the Falcons to the playoffs this fall, Vick will be among the nearly 800,000 black men in prison -- which sadly constitutes half of the nation's prison population. Instead of wrapping himself in the support he received from millions of fans -- many of whom look like you -- Vick aligned himself with a destructive culture that is being indirectly endorsed as long as some African-Americans continue to make pathetic excuses for an immature millionaire.
You may not believe this, but I hope Michael Vick recovers. I hope he plays in the NFL again. I hope his comeback is just as good, if not better, than Ray Lewis'.
But mostly, I hope that, through Vick, other black men learn that society is quite capable of gobbling them up. No extra help is needed.
Page 2 columnist Jemele Hill can be reached at jemeleespn@gmail.com
She's talking to black, dirty, evil, sinister, law breaking individuals who come in all colors, religions, gender, or ethnic origins of the human race. If the shoe fits, wear it. But all sakes alive folks, get off those platitudes and holier than thou perches. As a NYer and human, however, you're allowed to be King of the F'n hill, Top of the Heap, A number one. Remember to keep it real while you're there.
BTW--This young lady is an up-and-comer. She can't write any open letter until her employer valorizes her with an e-mail address on their platform. I wonder if Linda or Betsy has an ESPN email account?
KFL
Alan - you know we all think highly of you. So I'm not trying to diminish that. But you should also know that another reason so many people are showing up is to avoid Mark. You've just got to ignore it. Don't mean nothin'.
And one sincerely hopes this condludes his conversation on this blog.
Anyone else notice that Stephon's been at the center of the most hot discussions this offseason.
Forget basketball. Forget Italy. Alan, you should tell Stephon to go the Oprah route. The Montel Williams route. The Tyra Banks route.
He's one of the more controversial and provocative personalities in basketball. You may think he's dumb. You may think he's outspoken. But his name's on the tip of your tongue like spit.
I know the Vick thing has been talked to death but I'm getting sick of hearing that he is being treated unfairly because he's black. Do you reverse-racists actually think if Steve Nash was busted for funding illegal dog fighting ( a disgusting "sport" if you ask me ) he wouldn't be in the same trouble ? It is in no way the same as hunting. Are we in fear that dogs have become overpopulated ? What Vick did was on a par w/ electrocuting a boxer for losing a fight !
Don't be blinded by color when it comes to judging someone for being a sh*theel. You all who defend him so vehemently are probably the same idiots who cheered when they freed OJ ! Wake up morons, Vick is no pillar of society.
Wow great comments .. all the way from Alan Hahn to the commenters. Good to see not everyone is suckered into the medias (and perhaps even the publics popular view oint of things).
I'm gonna have to save this blog in my favs.
PS - Doesn't KFC like really cruelly kill chickens, snap their necks or something?
PSS - Don't we boil Lobsters alive, before we eat them? (I would never do that by the way)
If people can't see the difference between dog fighting and hunting... they lack a shitload of insight. That's on them.
Steph is an idiot.. he should of kept his mouth shut... this is just another reason so many fans are waiting for this idiot to go to Italy or be traded
Posted by: Dano
----------------------
Wow! Hey it's Dano and his favorite word for Marbury.. Idiot!
Wow, strong word for a basketball player (one of the best in the league), a man with an opinion and a heart to do really good things for kids and low/middle income families.
But I do agree, we should ALL know the difference between Dog-fighting and Hunting!
One dog fight with each other! the other men kill animals for sport! It's pretty obvious.
What Vic did was not ok. But I agree with Steph in principle. It's not about Dogfighting is OK (especially some of the things Vic is accused of _ though we don't know what he pleaded guilty to exactly yet) it's about the "other sideline issues" all the other things that are done to animals and accepted as ok.
Dog fighting is against the law and Vick should be held accountable the same as everyone else, not more. What really gets me is Sen. Bryd's comments. How many hunting ranges are there in VA.? How about those ranges that fence in the animals and feed them and charge "hunters" to shoot them for "sport"?
xpezckb vxdf zeidctshw irnmeda acgueylp aipmvujde ahmujxt