The Knicks Fix

Steph...what kind of argument is that? People shoot game because they eat it afterwards...he is not eating the dogs, he is purposely killing off animals because of poor performances...that is not sport, it is cruelty and illegal. Maybe if he brandished his license claiming he can execute dogs in an inhumane manner he would be not guilty, however as far as I know those do not exist.

I wish all the sleazy reporters would cut back on the stephon interviews. they're doing this on purpose now because of some of the other interviews he's given.

quite frankly, the guy is a basketball player. You don't go asking him questions about quantum physics, PETA, or the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Stephon needs a new publicist, because although its good that he feels free to speak about any and every subject, he's only hurting himself after all the good work he's been doing lately. The guy makes a remark like that and people will treat him like he's the one hosting the dogfights.

I think he was just trying to stick up for another athlete but I think this one is going to hurt him.

D-Nick should fire his agent.He has a nice stoke that will only get better.Why waste it overseas.I was hoping he would be our 15th man and learn this year to be ready in the future.We need to drop 2 guys (not counting Cato)I'm thinking Dickau(trade-expiring contract) and JJames(cause he is useless).Not D-Nick!!!

what a dumbass!? it is the cruelty behind dogfighting is what made it a crime..it's not a sport coz it's forbidden by law, if you know what that means..they're not shooting dogs here, they're letting them bleed to death..starbury should be fined heavily, like 5million dollars by the knix so that he will think or consult someone who does before he opens his mouth..

Marbury should feel lucky NBA owners arent allowed to put down their players who dont perform well or win games. Otherwise, "Starbury" wouldve been a goner years ago.

I've said before please do not ask Marburry any question, please. He's just going to say something stupid. Let him continue to do his good deeds, but don't ask his opinnion on anything. I say forgive him and just judge him on basketball matters.

As far as D-nice, I hope we're making the right decision with this kid because he may be the player we're looking for a legite three with both offense and defense skills.

Yeah at one time being a gladiator was a sport and feeding christians to the lions was quite enter-taining. We live in a civil society where domestic animals are cared for not brutalized. Perhaps Mr. Marbury should live in a third world country where dog fighting is acceptable. Its not here.

Davonn
I'm on the fence about Nichols and Jeffries. I can't fathom that we are too deep to give Nichols his due! This Kid has potenial STAR written on his forehead, in BOLD type. The Big East's leading scorer has merit alone, with that single statement! It would comeback to haunt us if this kid blows up on some other team! I don't believe Zeke will part with him as I can think of 5 knicks I would personally move before him!

Steady,starburyfan, African, Md boys from Da York,
Good looking out for Da Blog! Gott sure backs! I'm glad we are not all hooked on "Phonics!"

this proves my point.stef is losing his mind

Hunting is a sport because it is man challenging himself by pitting himself against nature. If he wins, he eats the animal for sustenance. Hunting is also highly regulated to protect the overall population of the wild animal.

Dogfighting is pure blood lust that serves no other purpose than to placate a barbaric instinct that should have died with primitive man. There is no comparison here.

Its really a pity. I was just beginning to respect Stephon as a person. Now I just see him as an ignoramus.

Greendoc
How you can state that "WE" are civilized and make Marbury out to be a tyrant because of a stupid statement, when our very own Leader of this country
is currently the Star of " Gladiator 2" filmed in Iraq! Opps! My bad...you must live in Canada? Mexico? Sweden? Opps! My bad again! Your statement Must be out of Poland!

The ONLY difference between what Vick did and what hunters do was the METHOD of killing. Both are murderers, but Vick tortured them first.

steph is da man. i got vick's back too!!!

Wow. Marbury, just play basketball like a good man and don't talk about things that are beyond your comprehension. Jeez.

hate to be the one to shed light on this... but i have to inform you a whole bunch of hunters DO NOT eat their kill when they get one. alot of em dont even do anything with it, they just make the kill. and continue huntin'.

vick is a dogfighting champion. stop hatin!

vick is a dogfighting champion. stop hatin!

Peace, Steady, Bronx, S

Way to make the bloggers "respect our house." We need to print some bylaws, YO.

Although I agree with Steph to some extent, he is making a bad move with this comment. The laws need to be respected by everyone, but this is getting ridiculous. I'm sure when the total story is told, MV will be guilty of holding on to the past, rather than the image of a killer.

I agree with Starburyfan: Marbury has to be quiet. Put a muzzle on it! He didn't major in Communications or PoliSci, you know? Regardless, the media sharks are in the water waiting. No more ambassador soliloquies, Steph. Pick up a ball and earn that $20 mil! Stick to your expertise!

"Hunting is a sport because it is man challenging himself by pitting himself against nature. If he wins, he eats the animal for sustenance. Hunting is also highly regulated to protect the overall population of the wild animal."

Dan,

Are you serious? Hunters eat their prey for nourishment? Are you speaking from the prey's perspective? Aren't both the dogs and deer dead at the end of the event?

Knicks are screwed as long as Marbury is the "captain", Isiiah is in charger of personel, and most importantly, that POS Dolan is the owner.

Dan, Greenbloc

So Vick is the Son of Sam, right? You guys are sheep.

I'm tired of hearing the following: "this is the greatest tragedy in the history of sports." I've been hearing this statement so often, I want to throw up at the TV screen. The Information Age has good points, but sensationalizing stories is not one of them. Yes, he is guilty. NO, HE IS NOT JEFFREY DAHMER!!! GIVE ME A BREAK ESPN AND ALL YOU SHEEP!!!

Note to Steph: Shhhhhhh!

The guy's bought some good will with his hoes and his other good works with the people of New Orleans.

Nothing will make peopple forget all that faster than Steph shooting his mouth off.

Dag. Typo.

I meant his shoes, not his hoes.

Note to self: The Preview button is your friend.

True dat. Stephon, Ron, Michael V, you are all humans. It means that you and we can make mistakes. "Let s/he without sins cast the first stone". On that tip, I've got ya'll backs. When it comes to breaking the law--now that's another thing. That's a whole nother level and ya'll kno wassup. Do da crime do da time!

When D!ck C shot his buddy in the face, how much deer, quail, or hound do you think they ate that weekend? The HYPOCRISY of some of my fellow Americans as it relates to this issue and the whole animal "rights" debate gives me PAUSE. On that note I side with you wholly Peaceman. Meanwhile, I see your point greendoc about the law being the law. STOP there.

greendoc, you go overboard and lose me with the perchy platitudes about our society versus the third world. More than ever, our image in your so-called third world is being ridiculed. We have too many double standards. The ASPCA "destroys" animals humanely (Oximoron?). Culling is the process of killing excess animals for population control. The difference in those situation is that some "power-that-be" established that rule of law. Granted, it must be respected. Dogs are groomed for consumption in places like China and the Phillippines. Those societies have culturally accepted the destruction (for feed or game) of canines to which we reserve a domesticated cache'. The debate, as I read Stephon should not be about destroying Vick but having a debate about the extent to which this society can accept dog-fighting or c@ck-fighting as a sport. Stop the hypocrisy of glamorizing the warrior who is Vick or Artest or MJ or Zach and then demonizing them the moment they show a human foible by piling on. Don't be a fair-weather fan, be a real fan according to your own values. Don't destroy your team or heros; just move on. Steady as it goes, stay the course, don't pass judgement. And if you must vent, start another forum all the while minding the hypocrisy in our positions/convictions. Meanwhile, this is a b-ball blog and we're all bloggin' for sakes alive.

And on that note, Nichols ain't palyed a lick-a-ball yet to be coming out making demands. He was the 53rd pick. He realized that he was a pawn in a bigger game of (player/GM) gamesmanship. He should be happy that his former agent did what he had to do to get him signed and in NY. Now he needs to get grown quick and lose that prima dona posture.

KFL

Don, Mark, Dross, whoever you are,

Great play on words.

Way to show the visitors what makes KF (formerly KK) unique.

I would rather Steph keep his thoughts to himself on issues like the Vick case, because he sounds like an uneducated moron. But as long as he can break down the D and hit the open 3, I could care less about his opinions on this matter.

And to anyone who think Vick "deserves" a second chance, would you knowingly hire a convicted felon? If everyone "deserves" a second chance, why are there constant outcries from urban communities about the lack of employment opportunities for ex-cons?

Why should this man have to say " I wonder what Dolan would think" everytime he answers a bloody question. Part of being your own man is that you speak YOUR mind not your bosses or anyone else's for that matter? If that is what Steph felt so be it! What do you want? Robots or individuals?

Perhaps the genius with the psuedonym "Ron Artest" is referring to the following article in ESPN.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2884063

ALthough I checked out this other blog to see if I could access the HBO real sport clip, I saw a short blurb on Vick and a video with some pretty graphic footage of what sort of harm these dogs suffer from dog fighting.

http://westsideslant.blogspot.com/

Am I "hatin" ask me. I don't think so. I suggest people look into the ASPCA blurbs on dog fighting for some perspective.

I thought PETA was insensitive in its post Vick plea deal statement while the SPCA statement on Sports Center was more measured and compassionate towards Vick, which is ok with me since I'm for second chances and rehabilitation.

The distinctions between dog fighting and hunting. well i'll take a stab:
1) Hunting is done seasonally in prescribed areas for the purposes of population control.
2) Hunters-- at least responsible and law abiding ones-- are licensed comply with the regulations in terms of season and geography of the animal hunted.
3) Hunting, ideally, is undertaken for the consumption of food with the bi product of population control- note that when prey animals overpopulate they become a danger to themselves and humans, because of the incereased likelyhood of human interaction.
3) Dog's, generally, unlike animals hunted or used for comercial consumption as foodstuff, have for over milenia been cultivated by humans to fill a wide range of useful social niches and utilities-- e.g., herding dogs, sled dogs, bomb sniffing dogs, dogs that assist police in anti narcotics at the airports, dogs that helped to sniff out the people in the context of catastrophes ala 9-11, dogs that help the blind, that are being trained to sniff out cancer, that provide companionship for the elderly etc., etc. I don't say what I am saying to be a bleeding heart but what has made the whole Vick story disturbing to me and perhpas many americans, whether dog lovers or familiar with dogs, is that it is the systematic nature of the dog fighting operations perpetrated on an animal that has and continues to have a pervasively positive degree of interaction with human society.

All that said, do hunters put use bait animals that are made defenseless so that the pit bull can strenghten its jaws? after a dear is shot if its still alive I believe its put killed instantly not electrocuted, drowned etc. Low level dog fighters will steal animals a bait animals and use and make them defenseless so that their "dawg" can become tougher.

Lastly, there are public safety concerns over dogs bred for the sole purpose of fighting, their agresssion if they are ever let loose, or even were to stray poses a danger to people and especially to children who may be seen as a bait animal to a large fighting dog.

I hope people understand that untill Vick decided to plea guilty. I was all for the innocent untill proven guilty line. I currently hope Vick learns from this experience. Perhaps the likely added suspension that Roger Goodell will likely place upon him once he returns from prison may give him time to prepare to make a come back. This is a country of second chances after all.

Lastly yes Marbury needs a publicist. I was one of the few people who interpreted his whole conversation on channel 5 about a month ago to be his an ill fated attempt at spoken word, and thought it was good for him to open up to the media. I hope he will think before he speaks, and hope that no dog fighting allegations ever come his way. For his sake.

Peace to all the intelligent fellow bloggers on this site. I hope we keep Nichols!

Ciao!

RIP to Eddie Griffin. I just read on Yahoo that his truck collided with a train. Terrible.

Next time one of you geraldo-worshipping foxnews reporters interviews steph and baits him with questions he has no business answering, be sure to ask him about the significance of hybrid SUV's, 2nd-order homogeneous linear recurrence relations, and his thoughts on high fidelity the movie versus high fidelity the novel by nick hornby. After all, we all wish to know what Steph has to say on those matters, forget about the game of basketball or cheap sneakers.

Alan, the above is not directed towards you, but to all those who exploit for the sake sensationalizing. The people whose careers advance by INITIATING the downfall of others. Since when was following sports akin to being on the Jerry Springer show?

these are new roman times we are living in. Reporters are the ones who would have shouted out for people to hung to dry; the ringleaders of the circus of the absurd.

"Do the crime, do the time." I completely agree. The entire story is embarrassing and stupid. I don't like pits or the egomaniacs who train them to attack and/or kill.

$60 million lost for this? Insane. The NFL stories just seems to have too much attention. Hopefully Vick will go away quietly and serve his time in his posh facility, jail.

The NBA season cannot start soon enough. This will put a damper on the entire NFL season. I don't know how the Falcons can perform with answering “Vick” questions every day.

HarlemBoyinMD,

I'm not Mark or Dross (who I assume are guys from some other blog).

My name is Don, and I'm using 'a different one' to differentiate myself from another guy named Don who posts here.

And the typo was actually a typo. No ulterior motives here, just a habit of punching the 'Post' button too fast.

Don,

My apologies. Still, a great typo.

agree with harlem, don, that was a pun and a half.

wonder if know what we're talking about?

i went over to isola's blog today, because I knew he'd be giddy that stephon messed up. he's still talking about the "hoe" interview. it is no surprise he's still trashing steph, isiah, dolan, he blames everybody for the loss of his precious MSG courtside press seats. i don't feel sorry for him, he still gets to go to the games. I remember last year during the away games he was sitting courtside, so that's 41 games of special treatment for being a talentless professional hater. not too shabby isola.

If humankind learns to leave well enough alone, I'm convinced that nature has a way of balancing things out. People who do heinous crimes and then end up as victims in some revenge-inspired jailhouse retribution are commonplace. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Who amongst us would wager that Eddie Griffin's life could end in nothing but tragedy? Such a talent and so many chances! The guy was rebounding from a drug suspension and turned down an offer to play with the NYK. The fact that folks want to come here now speaks volume to the work IT has done. EG is now in a place where he will need no more second chances.
If Nichols goes Ciao bella, watch for a Houston comeback in NY. Steady as it goes!

KFL

KFL

Guys,

Glad you liked it. It was still an accident, I swear!

(BTW - I haven't been active in a web-based NYK community since the days back on the Knicks newsgroup on USENET. I'm happy to see that there are so many people here who love the team through thick and thin like I do. I thought I was alone.)

Thanks to Alan for this community. It truly does rock.

Way to take the high road Hahn. Mark IS the reason KK lost its appeal. Now he's as pathetic and alone as ever trying to spark interest. I can't imagine a community attracted to a piece of shyte like him. Flies have a life span of 15 to 30 days so...

Don A.D.O. aka Don Ado...sweet use of italics. I think I mentioned my desire to sport some italics before and your use of them popped out for me. Thanks. Good pun by the way, intentional or not. Hope you like the name.

Steph really needs to keep quiet. The Vick ship is going down and there's no use in any one other than the captain to go down with it.

SOAPBOX ALERT

American society's freedom opens itself up to a lot of contradiction. There's a huge gray area between the ideals of morality and the practicality of survival. I would defend Vick if he were some poor guy in the Bronx who managed to take his family out of a bad situation as a dogfighting entrepreneur. I might defend him against the unfairness of the system if , once he made it "out the hood", the cops bagged him and threw his story at the local newspapers to speed the process along. But Vick is no poor dude. His dog-fighting business was no saving grace. He didn't use it to feed his family. And in this situation, other than having snitch ass buddies, he's not much of a victim.

I'm not much of an animal lover either but the law is the law. For as hypocritical, outdated and impractical as some laws can be...Vick has no legal out.

For as much as I understand what Steph means -although his answer is neither eloquent nor informative and his point is not exactly what he's saying- dogfighting is and remains against the law.

Vick was a leader on his team, a millionaire and had his city in the palm of his hand. Why he decided to head an illegal enterprise is beyond explanation. Be it dogfighting, c@ckfighting, hemp manufacturing, selling rigged cable boxes, re-distributing fake Tide detergent, selling fake Colgate to bodegas, importing impostor LouisVuitton bags, panhandling on the subway, etc. Do the crime, do the time.

For as innocent as some see it and victim-less ("it's just dogs") as others believe it to be, the law is the law.

That's the bottom line.

Still, I think, Vick is in this situation more because of the outrage over the cruelty than because of the law. I find it funny that the ESPN homepage's video player has a "Vick" tab alongside tabs for "NBA", "MLB", "NFL". Kind of sucks to be famous if you ask me.

Personally, I think dog-fighting reflects as much on a human being as growing industrial hemp and selling the leaves as medicinal canibus (sic) on the black market. It may not be the same thing but the parallels are close enough for me.

Just 50 years ago, this country had some embarrassing tolerances. 100 years ago was a nightmare. I'm all for progress but let's not pretend there are that many folks who are much further along than others. If that poster from earlier thinks we are SO civil then why is he labeling countries as "third world" and saying that Vick supporters should take dog-fighting there. How civil can we be if people in this country still use that sort of rationale? Kind of sounds like "Go back to your own country". Just a clever twist in language but the logic is the same. I'm cool for striving for an ideal but once Vick pays his price, there should be no further judgement. As far a moral price to be paid, no one on this Earth should expect payment. Too many folks on TV are using this as a chance to show off their brand of morals. Remember, all things are still not equal in this great country of ours.

If you stand on moral high ground and are willing to punish a man for the sins of many, I wonder what it is you're standing on. There's got to be room for forgiveness and redemption. And there's plenty of things in this world worse than one dog-fighting business. Some of them are in this country.
OFF THE SOAPBOX

Yo, Steady! Stay groovy!

BARFesque? That's like JORDANesque, correct?
Or more like MIKETYSON, I'LL EAT YOUR EAR IF YOU DON'T DIE FAST ENOUGH-esque.

Here's to keeping the blog-cancer(s) under control. Oh, and although I'm a new me in Mr Hahn's Knicks Fix, I'm not too civilized to hand out a lumping. Be a real fan. You can like the blog experience, love it and stay. Or you can hate and leave. Your choice. Your time. Your life. In the meantime, all's fair in love and war.

D'Nichols
Nichols is right for firing his agent. The guy is supposed to work for who? Nichols or the Knicks? If there was a deal in place and D-Knick did not know about it...what's up with that?

The summer's not over, the roster isn't finalized and his agent is already planning to stash him away in Europe? That's grimy.

His new agent is putting in a trade demand? That's what it sounds like to me. Albeit a tentative sounding one with conditions. I don't know how much demand is out there for a guy who was passed up 53 times in the draft before a team picked him to trade him. That doesn't sound like the path of a guy who will have a ton of team's knocking down doors to get him.

I like him. Obviously, Isiah likes him. As an agent, if you move your client to Europe, you are taking pressure off the coach and management to find him time. Be a smart agent and keep your client where all the pressure is on the team to use him. You send him to Europe and the pressure is then on your client to make it back to the NBA. I don't think your client will like that.

Just a thought. Good night fellas!

WE CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH Part I

This is one of those times that I have turned off the television and refused to watch even SportsCenter, which I view almost religiously, or worse,” fanatically”, three times a day even while working. This is a time when there is a negative story that I know will be reported and opined about ad nauseam and in the most simplistic and banal manner; I refuse to watch. It is a painful time for me as our society, led by the opinion merchants, tries to reduce complex issues to common denominators that destroy the true meaning of the events reported upon. And worse, it is a time that one can feel hopeless as the tsunami of public opinion rolls so quickly over all reason that only time can bring some sense of balance to the situation.

In a word, it is a time that “sucks.”

However, I have been emotionally and intellectually drawn into the morass by the reporting upon Stephon Marbury’s comments about dog fighting, comments which we refuse to acknowledge as accurate because they come from a man commonly portrayed as intellectually deficient by reporters. I believe Marbury’s comments do not support that depiction.

When I first got wind that Marbury made a comment, I prepared myself for some idiotic response that would allow the reporters, who have been waiting for a “gotcha’ moment,” to heighten their attack on the recently outspoken, and perhaps overspoken, point guard. Most athletes aren’t geneticists (or Arthur Ashe or Jackie Robinson) and when they are asked to be spokesman, politicians or American idols-role models, they sound as ignorant as most of us would while hanging ourselves by a rope over a reporter’s microphone. So I just knew that they finally got Marbury, who I silently wished would shut the f’k up.

But then I read what Marbury said in Albany and I read the responses. If Marbury was quoted correctly, he spoke the truth. If the responses were to the quotes I read, it is clear that certain reporters are intent on discrediting Marbury instead of understanding him and many people who see the world like him. It is clear that these people are caught up in the reactionary wave of public opinion and that there is no interest in addressing the issues beyond the media faux-morality. This reporting and our acceptance of it should make us fearful and ashamed of ourselves and our neighbors; very ashamed because it is just more evidence that we cannot handle the truth.

According to blog reports (I have not seen the video) Marbury told a local television crew: “I think it's tough. I think, you know, we don't say anything about people who shoot deer or shoot other animals. You know, from what I hear, dogfighting is a sport. It's just behind closed doors. I think it's tough that we build Michael Vick up and then we break him down. I think he's one of the superb athletes and he's a good human being. I just think that he fell into a bad situation."

On one hand, you would think that as Marbury tries to build a brand and improve his own stature, he would cover his mouth with a basketball and stay away from controversial issues a la Michael Jordan (Mike received heavy criticism for being an “invisible man.”) On the other hand, I’ve got to applaud Marbury for stating his views and then wonder why his opinion is portrayed as so far out the box – especially since what he said is true.

The contradictions inherent in convicting a prominent Black man for being involved in the violent culture of dogfighting make it hard for anyone to take a reasonable position. It is clear that Vick broke the law. It is clear that he engaged in activity that he knew was against the law. It is very difficult to defend someone who breaks the law whether it is gambling or prohibition laws. It was difficult for many (forget the lying revisionists) to support Dr. King, who was as reviled as Al Sharpton by many, for breaking Jim Crow laws rooted in our cultural history. It is hard to support someone who breaks the law, period.

Yet, one cannot escape the harshness and apparent unfairness in the prosecution of the law against this one man, who happens to be a Black celebrity. Marbury is correct, dogfighting is considered a sport and has been considered a sport in many countries for centuries. In this country, it is now an illegal sport, a felony in 48 states and a misdemeanor in two. It has not always been illegal in this country and it has not always been illegal in each of the several states. It has recently become more notorious as an illegal economic and entertainment activity for gangs who recently discovered the leisure and financial benefits of the sport. According to the Humane Society of the United States as many as 40,000 people participate in dog fighting either as spectators, organizers or breeders of dogs, and tens of thousands of dogs are bred for the ring.

A recent Chicago Sun-Times article informs us that dogfighting , while illegal, is very popular amongst athletes and entertainers. The same article states ”Magazines and Internet sites openly sell training gear and display the "Cajun Rules," an intricate, 19-point system for adjudicating dog fights. Videos depicting dog fights are available for sale online, including recently at Amazon.com, according to a suit filed against the retailer by the Humane Society.”

In 2003, Vick’s Nike released a pro-dogfighting ad and explained that the company was catering to an edgy, hip-hop youth culture.

WE CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH, Part II

Most often dogfighting crimes are not prosecuted to the full extent of the law. “Dog fighting thrives in part because prosecutions are infrequent and penalties can be light. Prosecutors often plead dog fighting cases down to misdemeanor charges of animal cruelty to dispose of them quickly. Instead of jail time, probation and small fines are the norm -- hardly deterrents to an activity that has become increasingly lucrative,” writes reporter Steve Malanga. One cannot help but wonder how many white men who are engaged in dogfighting have been persecuted and jailed under similar circumstances and for the length of time Vick will be jailed. This is still America, so we need not wonder for long. Arguably they need some test monkey to make the anti-dogfighting law work, so why not start with the life of a black man?

So here comes Michael Vick, a lucky prosecutor’s dream. Vick, because of his equally stupid brother, gets caught and penalized for promoting dogfighting from the wrong state. Definitely, his bad. But does that justify the penalty (12 to 18 months) he is about to receive. I don’t think so.

The question of Vick’s penalty (sentence) becomes even harder to deal with when one considers how much violence we allow against humans and animals in this country. Marbury is correct again; we allow men and women to shoot deer and other “wildlife” for sport, not for food. Yes, for the sport of killing. In America, we torture animals for luxury (i.e furs), experiments and food and pretend that we have no alternatives to accomplish alleged public benefits such as clothing, feeding and developing medicines. Simple lies and distinctions without a difference. We legally sanction the murder of animals for our own amusement. We allow the same animal rights organizations that claim to support domesticated animals to kill those animals virtually unchecked and unregulated in mass.

I grew up with a television-nutured love for dogs. I didn’t own a dog but my love extended to Lassie, Rin Tin Tin, Bullet (Roy Rogers), Old Yeller, Tramp (My Three Sons), Toto (The Wiz), Astro Underdog. and Huckleberry Hound. The image of someone hosing down dogs (especially Lassie and Pluto) and electrocuting them is as repulsive to me as the actual act. Still, it begs the question, what does one do with a vicious animal that cannot exist in our society in accordance with human concepts of civility and domesticity? What do we do to animals that are trained to be vicious and dangerous? What would we do with such animals if they are physically damaged and in pain? Yeah right, we kill them. We may not hang or electrocute them, but we kill them.

It is amazing that critics hang their hat on the visceral impact of the horrible and violent torture of these animals when the truth is that we support and promote the most brutal violence in world history. For one, football is a violent sport that leads to the permanent damage of men and one may say it is by choice, but one may also ask what are the participants’ options and how are they compensated for their aggression in relationship to owners, agents and mass media stockholders. In hockey, we root for paid men to swing sitcks at each other and to intentionally do bodily harm to an opponent. One may question, as William Rhoden has, whether they are merely new-era slaves. But let’s get beyond sports and question the murderous violence we are heaping upon entire nations in Iraq and Afghanistan as we have across the globe. Let us reconcile how a dog’s life can be more important in policy terms than the human lives, uniformed and civilian, that we sacrifice for no credible reason whatsoever in other countries . Let us face the truth about how sad, sadistic and apathetic we are as a nation. Here is where Ed Drossman and I agree about the ridiculous reverence we have of animals over human life. Silly people.

Those who do not want to focus on the charges of animal cruelty, point towards the gambling as actionable because Vick’s money funded the entire enterprise. Our nation’s categorization of legal versus illegal gambling is so screwed and self-serving for the State that it is difficult to have a sensible discussion about it. Professional sports intentionally makes itself accessible to gambling. It seems that major media outlets have been publicly supporting illegal gambling ever sense Jimmy the Greek became a media star. But amazingly, today New Jersey prosecutors announced that former hockey coach, Rick Tocchet, who in a media frenzy created to make the State AG look as aggressive as the US AG, was accused of running a gambling ring was given only two years probation for gambling. How much time does one get for gambling on dogs?

Marbury is correct again; Vick is in a bad situation, of course in large part because of his own risky ill-considered decisions. Not only did he break the law, but he broke a law that is zealously protected by a very vocal animal rights group. In this regard, Vick unwittingly and unexpectedly would challenge animal right activists whose media relations skills would shake up the marketplace by frightening Roger Goodell and the image conscious NFL and giving public, career-making thrust to ambitious prosecutors. It sort of reminds you of Imus’ unwitting challenge to Black women when he called them “nappy headed hos.” It helps to have a better understanding of your situation.

Vick is unquestionably hard to defend, but so is our hypocritical society. Vick is in a bad situation because he has set himself up as a sacrificial lamb to be used as an example for anti-dogfighting activists and prosecutors. He is the poster boy and poster boys attract more attention than normal joes. And famous black poster boys attract more than non-black poster boys.

Unquestionably, Michael Vick is wrong but that doesn’t make how we prosecute him and persecute him right. Fortunately for Mr. Vick, we like redemptive success stories and he will be embraced the same way Martha Stewart and Muhammad Ali were embraced. He will do his time, take responsibility for his actions publicly, perhaps genuinely accept some common sense, finally, and he will be embraced wholeheartedly after his first touchdown as a redeemed man/quarterback. He will never regain his pre-electric-dog marketing possibilities, but he will be used as an example of how Roger Godells’ policies are redemptive and strengthening for the NFL. And in a couple of years all will be good with the NFL and dogfighting will still be a major sport.

Personally, I don’t care about sending Michael Vick to jail; he is a fool. But the truth is that most of us are not too much better than him. But we can’t handle the truth, can we?

I genuinely don’t know what’s up with Stephon. I actually don’t think he’s a bad guy, but there are so many times he just doesn’t make any sense. It’s almost as though he’s talking faster than he’s thinking sometimes because he’ll say something crazy then totally contradict himself a minute later.

I don’t think this is the forum for this discussion, but what Vick did can't be compared to the ASPCA putting down animals or game parks culling herds. Yes, the animal dies each time. But how it’s done and why it’s done make ALL the difference in the world. A, it’s humane and B, it’s necessary and ultimately for the good of the other animals. Neither of which can be said of what Vick did.

And a quick note about the guys who don’t like Alan’s writing. They have every right to drop by and voice their opinion. And I hope they find what they’re looking for. By the obvious population explosion on this blog, there are at least a few of us who feel differently.

Why can't everyone be as compassionate as Stephon. Of course, we should all ease up on Vick. He just "fell into a bad situation". It could happen to anyone of us. You never know when you'll fall into a bad situation where you beat your wife, or torture animals, or maybe stumble into abusing some children, or accidently possess some drugs with intent to sell, or not realize that its ok to empty a weapon outside a night club. You know, these things happen to all of us from time to time. Give the guy a break. He's obviously a good human being.

Wow! Lives...stoic, as usual. Take out the Ed Drossman reference and send it to the publishers (lol). All this depth and meaningful introspection? In a blog? Newsday? We're not worthy.
The "B"s were noted and appreciated.
You are indeed a gentle person AND a scholar.

And now,the battle is officially on as to which blogger will prevail in the Essay Contest between BARF and LINJLNY. Cast your votes and raise the traffic hit count for our own AH.
Professors African, Tman, Willis, what have you to say on this sordid matter? NY Boys in MD, Starbury fan, Anti--we still have the key until AH comes back with what's good from the Nate lil' big man camp.

BTW, you will all note that we have diasgreed with our host regarding the take on Stephon's words without being disagreeable. I'm reminded of when MX said "This is a case of the chickens coming home to roost." Now Stephon M is no MX. However, if we can take a moment to look beyond our lofty idealist PC-perches, we would see the truth in Marbury's words. If Vick was a sn!t(h-a$$ b!t(h like his former leeches or a turn-coat like Warrick Dunn, then we would be evaluating him now for the other stupid things he did while revealing America's ugly underbelly.

KFL

Dog fighting is a sport. The NFL and PETA are not going hard on Vick because of the dog fighting.

It's what Vick did to the dogs that lost. That's the reason why they are jumping down his throat. He killed the dogs that lost.

If any of you remember maybe a month ago on that other blog...I mentioned that if Vick is convicted or he pleas...he should get a lifetime ban. Well I have to stick with that statement because he lied in the face of the commish. He actually killed dogs...that's something we can't forgive. I am the biggest Vick fan in the world but he has to go. I would love to see him play again and I hope the commish will bring him back. The gambling is the biggest part of this entire scenario. If Vick didn't take that plea deal...he was going to get hit with a rico charge.

Stephons comments were not out of line. If you don't want him to give those type of answers....don't put the reporters in his face asking him the questions. Stephon can say what he wants and there's nothing the Knicks or the NBA can do about it. Don't get me wrong..he can't go out on a tirade and say any old thing...but the comments he made about dog fighting being a sport...you can't do nothing about that.

If the Knicks or the NBA or anybody tries to fine him.....the Players Union would have a field day dealing with this.

Dog fighting is not that serious...killing dogs is very serious.

Peaceman I agree about D-Nice (great nickname)....I would buy out James and trade Jones and Dikau before I send Nichols over seas.

I really hope he's apart of our team next year.

Hey Stephon...keep speaking your mind buddy.

You don't need a new publicist...all you need to do is be yourself. Your not looking for approval....with all the good your doing within the inner cities across the country.....you can say and do whatever you want. As long as it's not against the law....

Live Your Life !!!

Just make sure you get us some more wins next year LOL...

Great stuff Alan !!!!

You guys remember old Qyntel Woods, right? He was involved with that stuff too. I had a hard time trying to convince my girlfriend to cheer for him while he was a knick.

Makes you wonder how much of a parallel there may be between pro sports worlds. Qyntel COULD have been the only guy in the NBA doing it, but who knows what these guys do behinds closed doors with their money. Your guess is as good as mine.

Could it be, two witch hunts in one off season? Watch out for PETA, they're still furious at the NBA for switching back to the leather ball. I heard they egged Shaq's house because of it (fake eggs of course).

In all seriousness, I agree with the law, it should be illegal to breed dogs to fight each other. I don't regard it as a sport, its definitely animal cruelty. Like many of you have already said, there is a lot of cruelty goin' on all over this world, and I'm not just talking about the fact that they moved Frank Isola's seat back at the garden.

If rich guys like to bet, they can go to vegas, ac, play texas holdem or go to the track (where there is more animal cruelty, incidentally).

Lives in Jersey is right, UFC, boxing, football and hockey are all pretty violent. self-inflicted cruelty for fame and fortune. The question must be asked, are these sports really just manifestations of our unavoidably violent nature? Is the war?

I don't think dog fighting should ever be legalized despite our currently and historically violent society. Not sure what, but hopefully, some good can come from all of this.

...yo how many want to bet Alan could beat up Berman or Isola in a fight?

Just kidding. But he could.

Orange and Blue--thanks for that sensible and reasoned look at the issue.
Trane--This blog will treat what the community members within it values as a topic. The host has set the tone for a "hip", colloquial, relaxed exchange among NYK fans which we're loosely calling the KF community in the Newsday blogsphere. From time to time, he throws the keys to us bloggers. It's sink, swim or go blow air in the inner tube.

BARF claims "all's fair in love and war." ANY CANCEROUS CELLS WILL BE PROMPTLY EXTRICATED leaving the host and community cancer free. Consier this our SOP or By-laws.

KFL

Steph has no filter, and someone in the organization or his PR people need to help him understand the need for one.
It's unfortunate that he makes comments that detract from the good he is doing with Steve and Barry's.
Dog fighting involves inhumane training techniques to get the dogs to be combative. Anyone who attempts to rationalize or legitimize it as a sport just doesn't get it.
Enough of this; let's get back to the reason why we are here, the blue and orange.

LOL. Steady, I actually agree that a good midnight editor would have helped me cut that essay by at least five words.

Man, Starburyfan, I don't know how I forgot boxing. For centuries we have supported legally throwing men in rings to beat the sh*t out of each other for our entertainment and financial gain and we act like dogfighting is so much more abhorrent. Yeah, right.

DJ is right. It is about killing the dogs. That is why their is no sense of proportionality in this prosecution. Just thinking about it evokes anger and repulsion.

News flash for those who believe that we can come up with a more rational basis for killing dear, I live in a town where animal rights activists have paint bombed cars and homes because of municipal efforts to cull dangerous deer counts that create more auto accidents. They don't think you have a rational reason to kill bambi any more than you do Lassie.

I never really saw the attraction in Michael Vick. But everybody talked about what a good human being he is before he got caught killing dogs. So what was it that turned him into Mussolini as opposed to a person who committed bad acts. And now somebody, Marbury specifically, sticks by the guy and we want to use that as ammo for our contiuing attempts to castrate Marbury.

We're so full of sh*t it's nauseating.

I don't care for Vick (I have always seen him as a person with a deluded sense of his importance), but I rather see people like Marbury stand up and speak their mind than act like hypocrites and run and hide because of public pressure and fear of being ostracized.

But, if Stephon or any other Knick has participated in dogfighting like many other athletes and entertainers have, he does need to shut up and get rid of those graves in his yard. I'm just saying. LOL.

I was very impressed by the Sports Reporters discussion about this on Sunday. I was surprised that they were not sanctimonious and tried to hit the issues from several reasonable angles. Mike Lupica being reasonable? Go figure.

Good discussion. I look forward to it being yesterday's news.

Peace.

Don,

With all due respect, there is no need to rationalize dogfighting as a sport. It is a sport. Your comment assumes that all sport is civilized and legal. Some sport is barbaric and uncivilized. Remember your world history classes in high school. Better yet, if you research dogfighting you will find it is no less a competitive sport than horseracing and the X-games. The real point is that it is an ILLEGAL, BARBARIC SPORT regardless of what you think and the media now tries to pretend.

Amen!

KFL

Steady:

Why is Warrick Dunn a "turncoat?" Because he abides by the law? Why can't black people have REAL role models like Warrick Dunn, Dick Parsons, Larry Elder, State Sen. Ron Rice, etc?

I totally agree with Starbury. People don't think of deer hunting bad, but a dog-fighting is bad??? Nonsense. They are both animals and you can't say one activity is good and the other is bad. They either gotta be both bad or both non-bad. I've eaten deers and dogs before and they are all the same for a human being... Let's not get carried away here folks, at the end of the day, people die from carbombs and children starv to death... THIS IS JUST A DOG FIGHT FOR PETE SAKES.

WOW!
Just caught up with my blog reading. WOW!
Lives:
I keep seeing why I demand you become a senior professor at FIT. That was deep...er...Ground shaking!
You hit on some very interesting issues, and so eloquently. I particularly loved the Iraq war perspective. I'd love to add to that, the drugs and brainwashing that our youth is subjected to in order for our so-called leaders to perpetrate their ideologies.
One major mis-step though. You don't write a piece so thought provoking, and include the word Dross. You lost major points, but great none the less.
I suggest(seriously) that you make a case to the commish on behalf of Vick, so that after the jail time, he does not get suspended for any marked period of time. I really thnk you can pull it off. Vick would then compensate you on a percentage basis, once he gets a new contract.
I'm being dead serious! That was one of the better reads of the year. Congratulations!

I think he is being made an example of...(Mike Vick)
Everyone has an opinion on this subject. Believe me, Stephon Marbury's opinion is shared by more than just him. People act as if Vick murders "humans". I don't recall this type of outrage when Blacks were hung, lynched, beat and brutalized for hundreds of years. I really believe some people think more highly of animals then they do humans... I applaude Marbury for his Starbury movement. People need to chill and understand everyone has an opinion....

huh? Part 1:

I haven't posted here yet, or anywhere in a few weeks, and I'd rather stick to basketball and the Knicks. Lives I am usually on the same page as you in general, but a few things you have written, it seems to me are pure rationalization and reach.

I'm going to piss some people off now and probably alienate a few people so skip past this post if you don't want to be offended. That's the way it is and so be it. I really don't want to get into this discussion, but here it is anyway, then I am out and you can pick apart my arguments and rationalize the crime all you want. It won't change my opinion.

Let me get this straight. Mike Vick is a victim now? People are tearing down Mike Vick? Mike's just getting a bad rap? That's hilarious. There's no way all the negative press he's getting lately could have anything to do with Mike Vick's actions could it? Tearing him down? If he receives any punishment for these crimes, it will be too lenient, but much deserved. Gary Fannon is serving a mandatory life sentence for being set up and railroaded by a corrupt cop into setting up a dope deal. Not selling dope, mind you just setting it up. For all the people who favor leniency in the face of smaller sentences for more heinous crimes, how about they use Fannon's sentence as the measuring stick when they mete out Vick's sentence. The reason his actions are illegal is they are wrong. In this country the people (by vote of their elected representatives, for the most part), still decide what is legal and what is not.

"Still, it begs the question, what does one do with a vicious animal that cannot exist in our society in accordance with human concepts of civility and domesticity? What do we do to animals that are trained to be vicious and dangerous? What would we do with such animals if they are physically damaged and in pain? Yeah right, we kill them. We may not hang or electrocute them, but we kill them."

Who bred and trained these animals to be vicious and dangerous Lives? And isn't that in and of itself another form of cruelty?
In Vick's case, (and by no means is he alone) a large degree of sadism is involved also. F#k Mike Vick, and f*k anyone who fights dogs or sponsors dog fights, or "breeds" fighting dogs, or tortures animals, the cowardly bas-turds. And yes, there is a difference between killing animals for food or euthanizing and torturing them to death for fun. Why would anyone in their right mind think that there is nothing wrong with slamming an animal on the pavement repeatedly until it's dead because it doesn't want to fight or is scared? Or wetting an animal, then electrocuting it? Or hanging it by the neck until it asphyxiates? If you feel a need to kill an animal that you deem useless to you, why can't you just shoot it in the head? Why not? Because that's no fun. It's much more fun to come up with sick sadistic ways to hurt the animal as badly as you can before it dies. That'll show em. Let that be a lesson to all the other stupid animals that come after (who of course still won't understand why their master is hurting them).

No. Vick and his merry band of "sportsmen" felt it necessary to torture these animals, who by the way were bred and trained by their tormentors to become more vicious and dangerous, before ultimately killing them. The reason these animals had to be killed was not because they had become vicious and dangerous, it was because they were not vicious and dangerous enough to give these criminals entertainment and make them more money.

- This blog will treat what the community members within it values as a topic. - Steady

I totally agree. And being part of that community, I was contributing my point of view on the subject. Animal cruelty, etc. is important. It’s just not why I, personally, come here. There are lots of other outlets in my life for that kind of time, energy, thought, etc. So: personal opinion. I’d rather worry about Nichols getting cut . . . which I really hope doesn’t happen.

Wow, the "author of the blog", is holding my comment (part 2). I guess I may be done offending the masses for the day. No bad language, so maybe it's just the content.

The B-Ball season can't start soon enough for me. Maybe I'll see you guys then.

Bok,

You should know well enough by now that I respect disagreement and I am very pleased to read yours. Welcome. I too look forward to B-Ball. I also see that my comment on sentencing did not make it through.

Anyway, I know the piece was long, but I don't think you got my point despite all the words. I won't rehash here. I'll just suggest you reread when you get a chance.

Still we do disagree on some important points, but I think my most important one is about applying some realistic proportionality here and about our own hypocrisy admidst our outrage.

In any event, thank you for your response. It is certainly appreciated as always.

African, my bad really. I don't know what the f**k I was thinking last night. It must have been the vino.

I love the US but I can't understand the people that occupy this country sometimes. Whenever there are Racial implications in a situation everyone hear throws there hands up and says not again.. that has nothing to do with it. For example Horse Racing is a sport in which beloved animals are breeded. trained, abused and put down when the become of no more use to the owner. There is gambling involved every minute of the day and just because a politian declared this acceptable and not illegal is it not the same thing. Only differnce is it is a High Society event ie Mostly White. Someone brought up Qyntel Woods who was directly and more involved in Dog fighting than Vick but because he was not a prominet star, not making Michael Vick money he got a slap on the wrist. ie what usually happens in dog fighting cases, Was suspended for like 1 game and there was no outrage. Now that someone who is making enough money to make White people feel uncomfortable is being accused we persicute him. Where is the outrage for the goverment who allowed 911 to happend and also Hurricane katrina which my friends is far worst than dogfighting. Where is the outrage for martha stewart and all of these big business companies taking billions from employees. Where is the outrage when the vice president can shoot someone and not go to jail.Where is the outrage when are (white) celebs and get a DWI every other week and just go to rehab, when they finally kill someone, they still will ot be as villaified. I have not even metion Iraq. I do believe that Mr Vick should be punished for his actions. I just can't understand how people are making this bigger than the many real issues we have going on is this country. I hope someone has an answer because I don't

I love the US but I can't understand the people that occupy this country sometimes. Whenever there are Racial implications in a situation everyone hear throws there hands up and says not again.. that has nothing to do with it.
For example Horse Racing is a sport in which beloved animals are breeded. trained, abused and put down when the become of no more use to the owner. There is gambling involved every minute of the day and just because a politian declared this acceptable and not illegal is it not the same thing. Only differnce is it is a High Society event ie Mostly White.
Someone brought up Qyntel Woods who was directly and more involved in Dog fighting than Vick but because he was not a prominet star, not making Michael Vick money he got a slap on the wrist. ie what usually happens in dog fighting cases, Was suspended for like 1 game and there was no outrage. Now that someone who is making enough money to make White people feel uncomfortable is being accused we persicute him. Where is the outrage for the goverment who allowed 911 to happend and also Hurricane katrina which my friends is far worst than dogfighting. Where is the outrage for martha stewart and all of these big business companies taking billions from employees. Where is the outrage when the vice president can shoot someone and not go to jail.Where is the outrage when are (white) celebs and get a DWI every other week and just go to rehab, when they finally kill someone, they still will ot be as villafied. I have not even metion Iraq.
I do believe that Mr Vick should be punished for his actions. I just can't understand how people are making this bigger than the many real issues we have going on is this country. I hope someone has an answer because I don't

Wow, after reading this blog entry, I'd say that on the whole, Knicks fans are as f'd up as their team.

Don ADO, eh?

Think I'll keep it! Thx, BARF!

Darren,
You forgot Charlie Ward from your list of role models.
Why is Dunn a "turncoat"? See definition of TEAM and the code of ethics (written and unwritten) that goes with the concept. From my vantage point, as a member of a team, my approach would be to embrace, inspire and lift as opposed to retaliate, reject, and ostracize. Sad thing is those are the same "crimes" that Vick pleaded guilty to committing against the animals. I hope that as a society of HUMANS, we do not allow our collective values (expressed as laws) valorize the treatment of animals over humans. We are not to treat criminals as animals. The former are humans. Someone more knowledgeable than me can find the word for the attribution of human emotions, values and perspections to inanimate, non-humans, non-sentient beings and things. Hey, I'm a human and a NYer. I have a world view, values, freedom and not domesticated. On all counts, I'm top of the heap, King of the F'n Hill, A number ONE!!

Trane,
You are most agreeable in the disagreement. Thanks for sharing.

bokonon,
I would have enjoyed reading part 2 of your post. There was nothing sensational in your part 1 (at least not for this reader).

We went on this topic because the web host threw us the keys. Steady as it goes, IT has this under control and when the people must revolt for not winning, we will ALL RISE.

KFL

And as far as "building up" Vick first and then "tearing him down". Thats the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. VICK DID THIS TO HIMSELF. Vick was admired for his skills on the football field, not because he's some saint or great person. He's being vilified now because he tortures animals like some serial killer pagan barbarian, but make no mistake, ITS HIS OWN FAULT that this is happening to him.

Ambush jounalism at it's best. Ask a loaded question when you know the athlete will put his foot in it. It's not the first time that has happened here in Albany. A reporter from the Times Union got into a "casual" conversation with Albany's CBA coach ex-Knick Michael Ray Richardson a few months back. During the conversation the Reporter got Richardson to say that in a certain situation you need a 'Jewish lawyer'. The reporter went with the interview and succeeded in branding richadson as Anti-Semitic even though as I understand Michael Ray spent time playing in Israel and has a daughter raised in the Jewish faith. Michael Ray has been fired and replaced with Vince Askew. and we wonder why players like Barry Bonds are suspicious of writers even before the latest steroids issues. I know, they just have a job to do.... The reporter that ambushed Micahel Ray now ( B. Etkin) now has a steady byline (and new color picture) in the Sunday Times Union. Whatever works I guess.

And blaming reporters for asking questions is asinine. That's what reporters do last time I checked. And when they fail, we wind up in quagmires in Iraq.