The NBA Pre-Draft Camp is like an NBA mixer, far more than all-star weekend, which is mostly over-run with marketing and corporate types. This place is pure basketball people; coaches, scouts, executives. Just about everyone is here and all at an arm's length and no PR people to intercept you and no restricted access places they can hide.
I got in last night and went straight to the Milk House Gym, which is in the Disney Wide World of Sports complex. It's a pretty cool set-up and I think I might have explained it last year in the blog. Not really a place you can take the kids if you're down here, but it's more of a complex where events can be held -- the Atlanta Braves hold spring training here, for instance. Last night was just two hours of drills for the players who were participating (the projected lottery picks don't show until later in the week for physicals), but it was a great opportunity to mingle with NBA people. When the night ended around 8 p.m., the gym empties into a plaza between the different sports facilities and you can find just about anyone -- even Danny Ainge was here, despite his team's Game 5 tonight in Boston -- from every team in the league.
I liken this event to the Final Four in that this is like a convention for coaches and executives who are looking to make conncetions and, perhaps, find another job to climb the ladder. At the Final Four, you have hundreds of coaches from all over Division I who arrive to swap cell phone numbers and touch base with the power coaches. Here's it's quite similar. Younger assistant coaches come here to get to know other NBA people and get face time with the power brokers -- you should see the receiving line at Larry Brown's seat -- and executives do the same, so, as we wrote today, you can expect Donnie Walsh to be a popular man when he arrives Thursday.
The Knicks have a small contingent here, led by Glen Grunwald, but it is mildly surprising that Walsh is waiting until Thursday to show. The Knicks only have a lottery pick, so it's not like they're trying to decide on someone among the players who are in the drills and games. Walsh will be here to see the lottery picks when they get their physicals and are available for interviews.
Mike D'Antoni isn't showing up at all. I find that interesting, but not nearly as interesting as Chad Ford's latest piece on ESPN.com. Ford has been pairing Danilo Gallinari with the Knicks in his mock drafts, but today writes "a Suns source swore to me Tuesday night that when they showed D'Antoni tape of Gallinari during the year, he wasn't a fan.
"Mike said he's just not sure the kid has what it takes to make it in the NBA," the source told Ford. "He said he'd be very nervous picking him in the mid-first round. I doubt he's become converted since he joined the Knicks."
Another source made an even more compelling argument: "Whether Mike loves him or hates him, Donnie Walsh is making this pick. He's the guy who has to take the heat and he's not going to pass that decision on to anyone else. What matters most is whether Donnie likes him."
I think we all agree that Walsh would take a high-end point guard first -- if, somehow, Jerryd Bayless slips by the Seattle/Oklahoma City Sonics -- and if D'Antoni isn't in love with Gallinari then he would pass. I would trust D'Antoni's opinion on international players.
Stay tuned there . . .
* *
Of course I sought out Patrick Ewing, who is here to watch his son, Patrick Jr., try to impress enough teams to be drafted. We asked him about the Knick job and he was clearly disappointed, but did not come off angry.
The Knicks don't own a second-round pick this year -- more on that in a minute -- but if they happen to come across one between now and the June draft, Ewing, Jr. would be a fun pick (they could also make him a training camp invitee if he doesn't get drafted). I asked Big Pat if his son wound up with the Knicks would he wear No. 33, like he did at Georgetown?
“He can wear anything he wants," Ewing said. "He is me. He wore it at Georgetown and they can take it down from the [Garden] rafters and put it on his back.”
Ewing just wants to see his son make it, but in many ways he already has.
“My proudest day was when I went down to Washington to see him graduate," Ewing said. "That was my proudest moment.”
Obviously there is no Isiah Thomas this year, but he is still very much in any conversation when you discuss the Knicks. I spoke with two executives who told me about how Thomas' overzealousness screwed the Knicks out of making a few moves last year.
The first was last year's draft. The Zach Randolph trade was a complicated one and part of the deal - though it was not directly connected - was an agreement that the Knicks and Blazers would work out their second-round picks so they would wind up with Taurean Green (remember we kept pushing that name last year). But Thomas kept tweaking the Randolph side that Portland brass got fed up and when it came time to talk about Green, they told Thomas they were done dealing with him.
The bigger of the two came hours before the trade deadline. Thomas had a deal to move Zach Randolph to the Denver Nuggets in another complicated trade, but there is no disputing a trade was ready to be made. But at the 11th hour, Isiah was at it again trying to tweak and adjust and squeak a little more out of the Nuggets, who eventually got fed up and called off the deal.
There are games today starting at 11 a.m. I'm sure most of you aren't interested in hearing too much about the obscure players, but if anything stands out I will be sure to present it here. In the meantime, I will continue to mingle with the NBA peeps. Maybe I should ask Chris Mullin about Monta Ellis . . .
Comments (29)
Repost from the last thread
A lot of good discussion on this thread.
I would take Mayo in a heartbeat if he's available. Other than Rose and Beasley he probably has the highest ceiling in the draft - except maybe De Andre Jordan, but how often do physically gifted big men with with questions about their skills or attitudes really make it?
About Lee - Old School Oakley mentions his production which is key to why the stat guys love him. Lee is the type of player whose excellence is more apparent statistically than to the eye. Statistically, he is a top 40-type player in the league Lee's per 40 minute rebound rate is one of the best in the league. He also shoots a high percentage at a low usage rate, which means that he doesn't have the ball in his hands much but produces points efficiently. He is actually among the best in the league at this, which makes him extremely valuable because he can get numbers on a team where other scorers dominate the ball. He is not putting up points as the default option on a crappy team - his kind of efficiency remains effective as the team around him improves. He also has a good plus/minus - the Knicks are much better when he is on the floor (part of that is due to how terrible the other forwards are). He runs the floor well and is an improving defender. He is an unusual player which makes comparisons hard, but I could easily see his development taking him somewhere between a Kurt Rambis and Horace Grant (closer to Grant - A. C. Green?) role on a contender. I don't think he is untouchable, just the most valuable player currently on the Knicks, and one who would continue to be an asset on an improved team. The Knicks can't afford to just give him away - if he is traded, it has to be a deal that is too good to pass up.
Alan,
Can you post what the Denver/NY trade was that Isaih messed up at the deadline?
Just curious... I simultaneously want to daydream about what could have been, and also become more enraged at what was...
Thanks!
btw agree if Mayo is available we take him. It'd be a steal. Though really why would Seattle not take him to pair with Durant in a HUGE backcourt?
i would like to note that in the last blog, we had 50 postings, and not one of them was a digression into self-aggrandizement or pithy name calling.
congratulations to all of us!
Alan - I've seen that you've been writing a lot about how badly the Knicks need a GM. It seems though that Walsh is really going to be making most of those calls ... Has he been talking a lot about the need for another decision maker in a GM?
I'd almost rather have less chefs in the kitchen, and let Walsh and the coach work together to figure out what roster moves to make.
What is the upside of bringing in a new GM? Is it for another Rolodex, more relationships with other teams' officials?
Yea, I'm curious to hear what Denver was giving up. Was Linas part of the deal?
I'm sorry Mayo never impressed me in any game. I thought Bayless went out of his way to make an impression in games were as Mayo seem to disappear.
I like Monta Ellis, he remind me of Starks.
Swap the pick to get rid of Zach and his contract. There are some good players down in the draft that are less risky.
forget mayo!!! THE KNICKS NEED SIZE AND ATHLETICISM AT THE FORWARD/CENTER POSITION. c'mon people. why don't u die hard fans see that?? i don't get it. how many more guards are we gonna add to tha roster. we can't block shots or reb tha friggin' ball at all w/ fatso, zbo, malik rose, lee, jerome james combo and all you ppl ask for is mayo mayo mayo. i am all for derrick rose but it's clearly not gonna happen unless a miracle trade takes place. we need to get anthony randolph in here...end of story !!! or i'm gonna abuse donnie walsh his entire tenure here for passing him up. i swear.
almost forgot, while you're there - alan plz ask someone from the kings' organization if by any chance ron artest is somehow likely available via trade if the right offer is made.
Knicks shouldn't go anywhere near Ron Artest. Didn't make sense last offseason, would make even less sense this offseason.
The Knicks can't take on any additional contracts that go longer than 2 years. A deal like T.J. Ford for Jamal Crawford would be OK because they both have 3 years left, so you're not adding anything there.
Thank Isiah Thomas for the Knicks inability to land Monta Ellis. The most they could offer him would be the MLE (Golden State isn't doing a sign-and-trade for any Knick players), and the Warriors would match anyway. The primary goal is to get under the cap for 2010 - so the Knicks are forced to pass on Ellis. If Thomas didn't make so many poor moves, the Knicks could strongly pursue Ellis this offseason and still be able to land James in 2 years. Ellis and James ? You're competing for the title every season.
Jon from NJ, I haven't post on Alan's in a NYC minute...But you need to explain how IT'S moves have put us in a terrible position to go after Mr. Ellis. Who by the way was an unkonown three years ago and this season is on the verge...Where's the parallel!
But please explain...Please connect the dots for me...No BS! Pure unadulterated FACT!
The Alphabet Boys are peeping and you're on the clock!
AZ, the way to hang in their Homie...Does the Wifey like the kitchen?
Peace! One Love!
Keep it POPPIN!
Jon, if I could, I'll answer that.
By signing the Knicks to $95 million in contracts, many of which are long-term, there's no way the Knicks could sign a mid-level exeption contract (which I think maxes at 6 mil) if they want to get under the cap by 2010.
Walsh has made it clear that that's his goal, so if he's true to it, they are not in a position to sign a rising star like Ellis, with their MLE (a clause in the NBA's salary cap rules that lets teams over the cap bring in free agents at a restricted amount. Isiah used this previously for Jerome James and Jared Jeffries). You basically have to choose one or the other - Ellis or a shot at LeBron/Wade/Paul/Bosh
If they didn't have so many large, long-term deals, they could have a shot to get under by 2010 and still have chances to improve their team along the way without being overly concerned about bringing on too hefty of a contract.
Thanks Matt. Very well put.
Surprised to see there are still some Isiah cool-aid drinkers out there. You must learn to tune Stephen A. Smith out.
Good points in the previous thread Trane. I will make myself available to discuss Isiah's legacy as a GM by the middle of next season. As I said before, there is no need to discuss his legacy as Knicks coach -- it is what the final record says it is. This time the stat doesn't lie.
Would someone hire Isiah again to run the show? I have no idea Trane. D'Antoni consistently tried to make an important point about being a coach, an owner or an exec in this league. You are not always going to be a winner. This is a profession with ebbs and flows. Being a coach is hard. There is so much more than we get to see with our naked eyes because this is first and foremost a business. For most of us this is simply entertainment and we tend ot judge based on our own entertainment values. But this is a business.
The fact of the matter is that Isiah still has a job. He works in the NBA which is an old boys club and he is part of the network just like Larry Brown is. Isiah is a young man who has met success and has failed. Not all of the NBA defines him by this past season. So who knows who might hire him especially after the press dies down. Who knows? How in the world did they keep hiring Bill Fitch and Lenny Wilkens? How does Franks keep his job? Larry Brown is a great teacher but has been villified in the media (except by his friends at the Daily News) for years for being a travelling snake oil salesman.
Heck, did you know that Walsh was on the Olympic Committee that decided not to put Isiah on the dream team. And now they work together? Go figure? Wsn't one of Isiah's assistants an owner in the CBA that popular opinion has him utterly destroying? And they worked together. Go figure.
Now Isiah's boys are hanging out in Orlando and we are supposed to be surprised the Walsh is not there until Thursday. Pleeeese.
The Knicks "braintrust" wants Rose. They will try ot go through Riley, Isiah's mentor and good friend, to get him. Chicago is going to beat them to the punch.
Finally, on Isiah. Funny how he is being criticized for asking for more in deals on one hand and he is being criticized for giving up too much in deals that actually happened. Some people make absolutely no logical sense -- but I understand the emotionality of it all. You go guys. Good for you.
lives in nj - No way around it -- He was a bad GM. It's logical. He messed up in a few different ways, both by being too push, rubbing other managers the wrong way and by giving up too much.
In fairness though, every GM in the league will have some of those types of mistakes.
Here's the problem with Isiah - He never had a plan. It's simple. He tried one quick fix after another, one big name "talent" after another, and none worked. None fit. In doing so, he killed the Knicks in the salary cap, destroyed any semblance of chemistry, and apparently damaged relationships with other teams by being too brash.
Recap...
In 05 draft, the Almighty Zeke’s foresight, eye for talent, and Mr. excellent evaluator of potential chose Frye.
2005:
Channing Frye over A.Bynum, Danny Granger, Monta Ellis, Jason Maxiell
We all know why he passed on A. Bynum. It’s so sickening that it’s not even funny.
Lives – you must admit that Isiah “works in the NBA” only in the most tenuous of senses at this point. Yet that, too, is something we won’t know for a while. Maybe he’ll have Walsh’s ear, and exercise some influence over the future of the franchise. Maybe he’ll be completely ignored. We don’t know. But he only “works in the NBA” because the franchise didn’t sever all ties with him after taking away the two jobs he had. (He’d be receiving his money either way.) A sports executive without portfolio? I suppose crazier things have happened.
I’ve argued often here that if Isiah had been lucky enough to be fired two years ago, his tenure in NY could be characterized as a “failure.” And, as you say, many GMs fail. And rise again. I would argue the order of magnitude has gone way beyond “failure.” And it’s specifically because this is a business that I would be surprised to see him in a similar position of responsibility with another franchise. Most owners would have fired Isiah years earlier. He was lucky (?) enough to have an owner who didn’t mind writing checks to make his mistakes disappear. Most owners wouldn’t have been so understanding, or so profligate.
To your last point, I find no contradiction there at all. They are completely different situations. If, in fact, Isiah gave away the store in some trades (hard to argue), those are in the books. Those facts stand. I doubt you would argue otherwise. But you’re saying it’s a contradiction to say he blew other trades for different (even, opposite) reasons? You’re obviously referring to Alan’s blog about the two non-deals last year. There can be many reasons why a deal falls apart. Or why a GM would walk away from the table. Good ones. And bad ones. Certainly, Alan is suggesting Isiah botched those deals. I don’t know the particulars. I suppose it’s possible Isiah walked away from the table when HE decided the deal wasn’t good enough for the Knicks. That would be a favorable reading (in his regard) for why the deal didn’t happen. Alan, on the other hands, seems to be implying Isiah blew the deals. (That it was a good deal for New York and Isiah “negotiated” Denver into leaving the table.) That’s also possible. But it’s not, by definition, a contradiction with other deals that were botched for other reasons. I don’t see why the same GM can’t blow some deals by giving away too much, and others in the way Alan suggests. Again, I’m not arguing that’s what happened. Just that it’s not necessarily illogical to criticize different situations for different reasons. There’s no prima facie contradiction there.
From the Miami Herald:
"One Heat official expressed concern that Knicks coach Mike D'Antoni will try to ingratiate himself to Dwyane Wade (and LeBron James) as a U.S. Olympic assistant coach this summer in case the Knicks can clear cap space to pursue either as free agents in 2010."
We can see practice of the art of strategy here: Walsh sets a goal of being under the cap and a player in the market for the three mentioned above. He waits to find his coach until after the smoke clears on some important playoff series ("why doesn't he hire Mark Jackson already?"). D'Antoni shakes free (by the way, saw earlier blind comments by a source with knowledge of the coaching search in Phoenix that there is "alot of baggage" with the coaching job, including meddling owners). D'Antoni fills the bill for "attractivity" with future FA's and has the coveted coaching position at Team USA where he will break bread with these FA's-to-be daily.
LeBron is nice, D Wade is nice, Bosch is nice. Multiple players coming out fosters competition, not every guy can get over the moon money as the feeding frenzy doesn't center on one player, equalizing all offers other than those of the current teams. All money is fungible regardless of the city its spent in. If you were a FA, where would you want to go?
That's how you use synergy in the organization. The bottomless pockets of Dolan are only ONE aspect of the Knicks organization that can be used. Checketts did it quite well. Making and re-making the team around Patrick. Layden and Zeke seemed only to use the keys to the vault. Like Layden, Zeke was consistently the highest bidder against himself (Curry - who else was really in that hunt? two Lottery picks? Jerome James? Nobody was bidding for him!). The team that wins in the summer of 2010 is the one that makes a good FA signing and has something left for more horses. Cleveland looks to lose the King and the Kingdom for want of just such horses.
Or maybe Walsh is a senile old fool and we project our dreams on him to our sorrow.
nice post willis, thank you.
Love that last line in Willis' post. I hope it's not true, but poetry doesn't have to be true to be beautiful!
I too would love to see what Denver was offering for Zach. They only have 3 players who have contracts that run through the 2010-11 season. Nene, Kenyon Martin, and Carmelo. I would imagine from Denver's perspective that one of those three had to be invovled and I doubt it was Melo! Martin and Zach's salary match up pretty close. Don't know if I would do a deal centered on either Nene or Martin. Doesn't help much with cap in 2010 nor are either of those guys healthy often. Of course I'm just guessing about who was invovled and I bet Alan won't be able to divulge who was without ticking off his souces.
Trane, again I am not sure what to say to a couple of your comments. They are loaded with implications and definitions that don't match any facts I know of.
Isiah works "in the most tenuous of senses?" What does that mean? That he has no titles? That he is not the coach? That he has no influence on Walsh? That he has no influence on Dolan? That he has no influence on Grunwald and Suhr? Or that his current job is tenuous in that he has no visible place on the organizational chart? Is it more tenuous now than it was three months ago? And so what? -- many jobs in the NBA are "tenuous" but he still works in the NBA. That's the bottom line. He gets paid more to be in the NBA than either of us (I am assuming that you don't work for Dolan).
"Beyond failure?" I'm curious as to the facts behind that definition. What is "beyond failure?" I assume you mean failure so bad that no one would ever want to hire a person again. Whatever your definition, I guess if it is shared by all of the owners and the league, the man will never work again or have any influence in the league again.
But, I tell you that "beyond failure" to me connotes the absolute destruction of a thing or opportunity where no redeeming features can be found or benefit realized. Like Enron. Maybe like the Iraq War.
"Beyond failure?" O.K. Perhaps Isiah won't be as redeemable as Carlesimo (who supposedly would never coach again) or Kobe (who would never sell another product again) or Crawford (who would never ref again). Perhaps, no one who has been in the foxhole with this man for years and who continues to sing his praises will hire him again or recommend him for another job in the NBA. Perhaps people like Magic and Dumars or a crazy owner like the unpredictible Mark Cuban won't even give this guy a light to look up his own ass. Perhaps one of his former players won't get a job like Chris Mullins and hire him like Chris hired a troubled Nellie. Perhaps he won't be like Barkley (once considered the scourge of the league, the epitome of non-role models) but now a top NBA analyst. Perhaps you are right. And perhaps everybody was right that Isiah would be gone from the organization by now, just collecting a paycheck and sippin Mojitas on a beach right now. Funny thing is that the only one in the organization that says Isiah is simply collecting a paycheck is NO ONE.
And Trane, the contradiction I am referring to is not that "the same GM can’t blow some deals by giving away too much." The contradiction is that based on no information about the deals mentioned by Hahn, commenters want to criticize Isiah for working hard to get more out of a deal, but for the deals he made they want to criticize him for not asking for enough. However someone, John K, took it to the next level to at least figure out who on Denver could possibly make a deal with Denver worthy enough to improve the Knicks -- he's right, if the deal did not include Carmelo, what's the big deal? (So, without more information, it is possible that it was a good thing that he did not make a deal when, especially when our assets are undervalued.)
The contradiction is that typically you want your GM or negotiator to negotiate hard for a deal. Not every deal should be made. But because Isiah negotiate hard you want to criticize him for a deal you know nothing about except that it was with Denver or Portland. Did Alan give you enough details for you to think that the deal he is referencing should have been made? Do you have any idea whether those execs were trying to fleece a team that showed no value?
C'mon, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. Some of you are just making things up to fit how you feel. That's your perogative. I'm just interested to see who will admit he or she just doesn't like him because of how he makes you feel and you will invent facts to bolster how you feel. For you, it's not enough that he failed. It has to be "beyond failure." It's not enough that he gave up to much, but he also lost deals where he asked for too much.
People do the same thing when there is a family member, ex-girlfriend, ex-spouse, former employee who they once liked that they now detest. All of a sudden everything that ex-spouse or ex-friend did is wrong and even some things they didn't do. I suggest that folks don't want to admit it because it is petty and emotional. But we do it all the time. So just own it and move on. You're pissed and Isiah is still a very rich New York Knick with influence, today.
Lives – I think this is pretty much played out. And since we don’t seem to be interesting anybody except ourselves, I’ll make this my last post on the subject.
Thank you for finally putting your cards on the table. You’re obviously working very hard to suggest/invent some kind of predisposition and emotional over-reaction to Isiah personally. I would suggest that you are the one making things up to fit how you feel. For example: You don’t KNOW that Isiah has ANY influence in the organization today. (I don’t either.) But you claim it as a fact.
I reject the suggestion that this is about some kind of predisposition or emotional reaction. At some point you may just have to come to grips with the idea that he did a TERRIBLE job as GM of the Knicks. This isn’t about Isiah personally. It’s about his JOB PERFORMANCE.
And, yes -- I specifically chose the language “beyond failure” and your definition seems about as good as any – namely, a “failure so bad that no one would ever want to hire a person again.” That works for me. Yes, I believe that’s the order of magnitude here.
But your comments start getting a little too bizarre for me when you try to create analogies with real-life situations. Let’s be clear: basketball is mindless, meaningless entertainment. How can you possibly try to create analogies with Enron and the Iraq War, where families lost their futures, and tens of thousands of lives have been lost, respectively? I can’t even begin to respond to that kind of association. It seems out of place to me.
I find other comments somewhat disingenuous, as well. Do you REALLY see little difference between his “job” and that of many others in the league? Fine - name me two other high management officials in the league without any title or specific job or responsibilities. Can you? Do you really think Isiah would still have ANY association with the Knicks if Dolan still didn’t owe him so much money? Isn’t that really what Isiah’s current so-called “job” is all about? I think so. You obviously believe otherwise. If you have any specific facts to back that up, I’d be interested to see them. I don’t think any of us do. It’s all supposition.
You also neatly side-stepped the entire point I was making about the contradiction you allege. I wasn’t criticizing Isiah for anything. (Please find where I do, as you allege.) My only point was that you’re claiming it’s illogical to even suggest a GM could have blown different deals in different ways. That’s wrong. It’s not. It’s not illogical, or, BY DEFINITION, a contradiction. He COULD HAVE given away too much in some deals, and blown others by asking for too much, as Alan seems to be suggesting he did with Portland and Denver. I never said that’s what happened. Just that it could have. Read it again.
But again, you’re working over-time to invent motivations without any real basis in fact for them. Obviously, it rankles you no end that some of us are frustrated in the extreme with the mistakes he’s made and the current state of our favorite team. At some point, perhaps, you’ll be able to acknowledge that it’s his job-performance that motivates our criticism. Nothing else. With the colossal failure he’s presided over, I find it strange that you’d work so hard to deny seemingly all foundation to the criticism leveled against him.
(The interesting rhetorical exercise at this point would be to have you make the case against Isiah, and have me make the case for him. If anybody else on this blog had registered interest in our dialogue, that might have been fun. Perhaps for another day . . . )
But there you are. Reasonable people can disagree. I promise you, the day he’s hired to run another franchise, I’ll post in all caps how wrong my assumptions in these posts have been. I think we’re done.
From HoopsWorld:
The word at Orlando Pre-draft Camp is that many of the lottery picks and middle first round picks can be had for the right price. Rest assured that if a deal can be made, the Rockets will make it. And one way or another, they'll find a diamond in the rough in their quest to push past the first round next season.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=8868
Donnie, time to start picking pockets you old scoundrel! Time to call in the marks!
This could break out favorably for us; it seems every team is linked to a piece about willingness to move picks, move up, move down.
Can't wait to hear the scuttlebutt Alan.
I'd have a tough time rationalizing the waste of my time even discussing whether Isiah was a terrible GM or not. There are few things in life, let alone sports that are less debateable. Just look at our current team and salary cap position. It's comical!
In fairness to Isiah (and maybe I would be a terrible GM) at the time he was making deals, I thought some of them were going to work out. But in fairness to myself I don't work in the NBA.
For example,
1.) I thought the Marburry deal was a steal for all those bums he gave away. But I didn't realize it included a 1st round pick down the road. And I didn't know he was such a jerk.
2.) Curry appeared at the time to be the next Shaq, for Sweetney, Thomas, a 1 first round pick and a swap of picks. Mind you losing Naoh and Thomas wasn't that big of a deal. I didn't think he'd eat his way out of shape/NBA.
3.) Zach for Soft Frye and done Franchise seem to be a steal at the time, put them both inside to dominate was the sales pitch. I should have known EZ pass wouldn't work; we should have let Francis come off the books, now we're stuck with Zach.
4.) Jerome we didn't have a Center, Jefferies seem to be a good defender, Jamal seem to be a young stud.
5) I'm not blaming him for Jalen and Francis; I'll put that on Brown.
Maybe he was just a horrible coach and maybe D'Antonio can do something with these guys. His GM status whether good or bad is still yet to be determined.
One (more) major problem with Isiah's performance as both GM and coach: a complete lack of improvement over time.
From the beginning, he drew criticism for trading away assets (picks, prospects) and shorter term deals for bad contract, poorly fitting players who crapped the bed in for the Knicks. His last crummy decision (Randolph) was exactly the same kind of blunder he he's made continually all along. As a coach, even in Indiana, his weaknesses included lack of preparation, poor game management and disadvantageous roster decisions. Exactly what he was slammed for here last season. And he always tries to spin his failures rather than demonstrating that he learned anything from them. As an owner, his horizontal professional development curve is much scarier than any specific blunders he made.
I have no problem with him hanging around because Dolan is on the hook for 8 figures and making suggestions like "take another look at that Lee kid from Florida," so long as someone else has the final say on all decisions (like "nah, lets not make Curry our franchise centerpiece).
Good AM! I knew I stopped coming by here for a reason. Matt & Jon, your reasoning for the Knicks inability to not sign Mr. Ellis is ridciulous. The 95 Million in contracts you attribute to IT is based on what your word! Facts supported by legitimate information. Plus Mr. Ellis made less than a million per year and tripping if he thinks he is worth more than the Mid-Level Exception with his injury history and one solid year.
Secondly, you know very little about me Jon and you talk about drinking IT Kool-Aid. I was a NY KNICK FAN when you were using your two pinky fingers to urinate as a little boy. I'm a FAN OF THE KNICKS not IT... It is obvious IT has made mistakes, like the Regime before him, like so many other NBA teams, and he he has done some good, like others too. When you are incapable of being balanced in your assessment of a situation, it shows a lack of breathe and width of the situation. In other words a very shallow perspective. OUR FRANCHISE IS IN BAD SHAPE FOR MANY REASONS...
ONE LOVE
Keep it POPPIN
Trane, you crack me up. I agree that I am working overtime to show you respect by responding to you and your effort to pass off as logic what absolutely is not. (By the way the only evidence I have that Isiah has influence is that Walsh says he has it, according to the media Dolan has been insistent that Isiah remain a part of the organization, Isiah was recently in Europe scouting Europeans and possibly meeting with D'Antoni's agent (until someone explains otherwise), Isiah's people including Grunwald, Tripuka and others are still providing the info for the draft and Isiah still is paid more than Walsh. Is that enough evidence for you or do I need to read between the lines for you too).
But this is the real deal and why I have engaged in this little tet-a-tet. This discussion has not been as much about Isiah as it has been about you and your arguments about Isiah and the lack of fact to support much of what you arguing. I stand by everything I said about your emotionality which jumps at me like a locomotive.
I have no problem ending the discussion with you because we absolutely disagree. There is no debate about Isiah's tenure. I said that before and offered to end the disussion at that, but you persisted.
I have read you long enough to know where you are coming from and your argument has remained the same for a very long time. I was just being respectful by responding in the first place.
And if you can't handle a methaphor or a simile, then just give what I write a skip pass. I won't complain.
Lives – You see, I would say this discussion is about your indignation at criticism of Isiah Thomas. And your need to ascribe pernicious motivation to it . . . rather than simply acknowledging that some people might just be of the opinion that he did an AWFUL job. (After enough bad trades, enough squandered assets, enough losses . . . over enough time . . . and obviously I’m not the only person who’s come to the conclusion that his was a failure of colossal proportions. Are we all out to get isiah like you obviously think I am? Because I've heard a lot worse about him, in pretty high-profile places. So everybody is emotional and making it up?) You’re inventing facts and emotional states you know nothing about . . . and couldn’t possibly. You make a lot of grandiose claims, but never bother to back them up with any arguments. (So all that so-called “evidence” proved what exactly? That Isiah is still a power broker in the Knicks organization? It “proved” it? You’re kidding, right? At best it suggests it's possible. Something that was never in dispute.)
Exactly what metaphor can’t I handle? Exactly what arguments of mine aren’t supported by facts? Show me exactly where my logic doesn’t follow, don’t just claim it. I explained, in detail, why the so-called contradiction you found doesn’t hold up - logically. I invite you to do the same. Or, if you allege I’ve criticized Isiah in a specific way (as you did in your last post) and I challenge you to provide it, you don’t. Again, just assertions – claims that aren’t backed up by a reasoned argument.
And you say I’m the one presenting arguments without facts to back them up? On the contrary . . .
I suggested we were done for two reasons. A) it’s not going anywhere. You’re certainly not showing me anything that comes close to changing my mind. And I’m not changing yours. And B) obviously, nobody else could care less about this discussion. So we shouldn’t be taking up so much blog space with it.
And I guess a third reason – I’d assume at this point we both have better things to do.
But, I’ll make this offer . . . I have an anonymous e-mail account from my old hobby of scamming scam artists from the 419/Nigerian Scam. To maintain the veil of anonymity, I’d be happy to use it to continue this dialogue when we’re not in everybody else’s way. I’m game if you are . . . or, we just can shake hands (metaphorically, of course) and wish each other well. I’m happy either way . . .
all I can say after taking the time to read this long running dialoge between trane and lives is:
1. Thank you both for being cordial. It drives me nuts when teh blog degenerates into name calling.
2. You both have agreed to disagree a few times. Now would seems like a good time to change the topic back to the present and future of the team. Draft, Trades, who to keep, who to let go, who's going to be the new GM and what role they will play, etc...
@ john k – maybe, in the end, some good can come of the way some have abused these blogs. Both Lives and I have seen, first hand, how bad it can get. I know that guides me, and continually reminds me: respect first, opinions on what are, ultimately, silly topics like basketball . . . always should come second. Thanks for the good advice.
@ Lives – he’s right . . . I wish I knew something about the draft, so we could argue about that. But let’s give it some time. I have no doubt we’ll have ample opportunity to go at it in the future, looking forward, not back.
Peace.