The Best Damn Post of the Summer Period.
From Bokonon, a fellow Fixer and Knicks fan since the 70s. Worth a re-post here in big print. Bokonon has found Zen in his fanhood.
His words:
* *
It doesn't matter if I am willing to give the Walsh/D'Antoni regime a chance or not. It's not up to me. Knicks management couldn't care less if I approve and that is the way it should be. They should be in it to contend and win for the long haul, not to appease some fans with a win now or else attitude.
I'm a fan though and and I have to give them a chance. I gave Isiah and Stephon about three years. I was so ecstatic when they got rid of Layden that I didn't care who they hired. I don't recall a lot of Isiah-bashing going on right after he was hired, but maybe that's me. I recall the papers talking about how Isiah brought the Knicks back to being relevant again. They were on the back page for the first time since Van Gundy left. Then Isiah brought Marbury home and it was like a love-fest.
What happened?
Losing, and lots of it, on a scale that dwarfed even the Layden years. (yes Eisley, and Shandon Anderson had a better winning percentage than Steph and Eddy, go check, I'll wait...).
I still stuck by them until it became apparent that Isiah either didn't have a plan, or didn't have a clue. Every other week we got a new direction for the team. It was Phoenix Suns style East, then it was power ball, then it was you can't rebuild in the NBA you have to go for it now instead of waiting for the guy you want. Then it was you have to be patient, we're rebuilding.
I personally don't mind genuine incompetence as much as I mind someone trying to snow me. Either way it meant he had to go. He had his chance, he blew it. You didn't make us any prouder Isiah.
Now it is Walsh's turn. I will give him a chance whether it matters or not. I'm sure J.Dolan doesn't care one way or the other if you and I give him a chance.
Donnie seems to have a plan. So far he has followed through on what he has stated he would do. You could say that he went back on his first promise of more emphasis on defense, but how can you even tell? From the coach he hired?
How do you know D'Antoni won't stress defense? Riley was a defensive coach before he came to NY, although he wasn't known for his teams' defense, but for his wide-open run-and-gun style. With a different type of group, he changed it up and came up with something else that was successful. I'm not saying D'Antoni is going to suddenly turn into Greg Popovich or Chuck Daly. But how does anyone really know how he will coach this bunch? They haven't even been to camp, or even all been together in the same place yet.
I think we can all assume they will try to run on offense, but every coach knows you can't fast break off of baseline inbounds passes after opponents made shots. You have to play some defense to run, and some would be more than none which was what kind of defense we had under Isiah. Other than that, you can assume nothing. They haven't played one game, not even preseason, and some people are ready to give evaluations on not only Walsh's, but D'Antoni's jobs with the Knicks.
As for Duhon, they paid him the same per year that the Sonics gave Earl Watson three years ago when Earl had comparable numbers with the Grizzlies to Duhon's with the Bulls. The Sonics already had a starting point guard at the time.
Maybe D'Antoni sees something in the kid. He's the coach. Shouldn't he be able to choose the guy who he thinks can run his team on the floor at least as a stop-gap until they can acquire a permanent point? What did they give him a two year deal? Sorry but that's a lot different than the JJames or Jeffries deals.
As for Marbury, he has to go. It's not about his talent level, or who is a better player than who, or who has better stats. He is a culture. He is the face of the hapless laughing stock New York Knicks and he needs to go, preferably quietly after this season with his contract expiring.
As for his stats; stats can be misleading. They don't keep a Games gave up on stat. Or a disregarded the coaches instructions and decided to freelance per game stat. Or a seconds dribbled off the clock while pounding the ball looking for his shot per possession stat. Or a stats per game on the second day of back to back games stat. Or a you guys go practice, if you need me I'll be getting my massage stat. Maybe they should, it tells a lot more about the player than assists per game.
Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
* *
E-mail
Facebook
Digg
Delicious
Comments (25)
i agree almost to the letter. great post.
i agree as well. Just one thing: "They don't keep...a stats per game on the second day of back to back games stat." I think they do actually, but agreeing with your implication, Steph's is probably bad.
Yeah, that post essentially sums it up. Nice job, Bokonon.
I'll restate an earlier argument which applies here: We need every transaction to be solid. Not a "hoping this works out like the Yankees" type of transaction.
When we signed Jerome, we had no center. Our tallest player was 6'9". James had a good playoff run with Seattle. He wasn't totally interested in coming to New York, so we overpaid him. But we needed a center.
When we signed Jeffries, we had no small forward who could play defense on the perimeter. We were getting torched for 3-pointers (still are). Jeffries was playing great defense for the Wizards, allowing stars to play their offensive games. When Jeffries was signed, we thought we had a defensive specialist. Yes we overpaid (we always do), but we all thought we would at least be able to defend 2's and 3's on the perimeter.
The Duhon transaction for the MLE was unnecessary. This team needs a shotblocker/rebounder more than it needs a 4th PG (Marbury, Robinson, Collins).
Great coaches utilize their talent, not force a square peg in a round hole. You think quick shots will work with a team that doesn't have an Allan Houston or a dominant post player like
We are all Knicks fans, not Isiah (the executive) fans. I'm not criticizing the new regime because of a dislike for them. I'm criticizing the current management because our roster (as currently constructed, and it is getting late in the offseason) is not going to beat Duke or North Carolina. I'm also criticizing because it's been 35 years since the last championship and we are not anywhere close to that level.
Get rid of current players or be competitive with marginal talent. Walsh said we will be competitive while prepare for 2010. His words. Seems like that will be very tough to do. The mainstream media states he had an opportunity to get rid of a player with a huge salary if he gave up a first rounder. We waited all season to get in position for a stud. We got Gallinari.
Duhon
Crawford
Chandler
Randolph
Curry
It's going to be another long season with that lineup. Anyone here think this starting five will be competitive?
aww gee alan, i was kind of hoping that you would repost a compilation of NYC2INFINITY'S whining rants.
BOKONON'S post was very good reading, but i have to tip my hat to WILLIS for consistently posting interesting and astute analysis.
and one more thing: i'm really looking forward to a having a president who's got some game. they should just settle the damn thing with a game of one-on-one or H-O-R-S-E. to make it fair we can spot the senile old white dude the H-O-R-S.
@Sec11rowH
i don't think making observations
about the moves the knicks make
should be considered "whining"
i call it how i see it
i am no zealot willing to follow
without asking questions
i didn't follow zeke blindly
and i will not follow walsh blindly either
if i disagree i will say it
and if i agree i will say that as well
but i will never be a "homer"
or a "yes" man
pointing out different points of view
is what makes america AMERICA
thats like saying "anything you say
negative against the government
makes you anti american"
so if i say anything that disagrees with the knicks
then i am anti knick?
i am a paying season ticket holder of 6 years
so by being a customer
don't i have a right to my point of view?
i gave walsh credit for signing Duhon
(although i thought he was over paid)
i understood the signing
i disagreed on picking Gallo
and the zach non trade
the balkman trade was a non issue for me
so i have not just been anti walsh
but being a knick fan does not 'mean
i have agree with everything walsh does
i am entitled to my opinion
and you are entitled to yours
@nyc2infinity
thou doth protest too much.
having said that, no hard feelings dude, all in fun, we are dedicated knick fans and have that and i'm sure much more in common (you're not voting for mcbush are you?)..
but seriously, you can't be serious that you would really pull the trigger on z-bo and a #1 for a #2 and brevin knight? that is just STUPID. what's the rush? it's not like cap space needs to be cleared this year.
finally, as for america being AMERICA, tell that to the prisoners being tortured in abu ghraib and guantanimo, and to the hundreds of thousands of our hard working citizens who face foreclosure, or to the prison population in the country with the world's highest rate of incarceration, or to our elderly who have to choose between paying for food or medication, or to the 42 million AMERICANS who can not read at all, or to the AMERICAN baby's who were victims of the second highest infant mortality rate amongst developed nations.
so please, skip the lectures, i know what country i live in.
yeah yeah, i know, love it or leave it.
Another solid post from Harlem..
Look at the lineup he has spelled out above...it cant win..
So if we arent going to be able to win, lets find away to move some 2010 contracts by any means necessary(randolph,jeffries,crawford)and hope somehow that Curry and Q opt out(which they wont because nobody else would pay them half of what they make)
So that leaves Gallo, Chandler, whoever we pick early in next years draft, and we have room to sign some young and talented players in 2009, and then go after one or maybe two big dogs in 2010..
You know Lebron and Dwade would want the big stage of New York together if we could make it happen...
I know alot of you think i'm crazy but am i?? Or am I right to think if we are gonna lose either way, we might as well go younger and less expensive..
Keeping 2010 alive
with my Bulljive
Alan, how much did Bokonon get paid for writing your column?
Nice job anyway!
Along the same lines as you and Tom Sawyer used, perhaps some of the Knicks could talk some talented amateurs into to play in place of the lazy and inept pros. I bet the replacements could have won more than 23 games that way last season. And I bet Jerome (Jessy) James' replacement would have played more minutes than the Big Snacks bank robber he would have replaced.
Alan, I have not commented in a while... same ole nothing. StarBerman is garbage...We are still waiting on that big big deal to return hope and respect back to the Knicks. You keep us up to date especially the old school fans like myself who live out of the state and depend on you to keep it real. Big Ups to Bohonon for the psost .. this is what makes NY the best sports city in the world. Our city never sleeps and neither do OUR FANS. Keep it flowing. Peace!!!
Alan, I have not commented in a while... same ole nothing. StarBerman is garbage...We are still waiting on that big big deal to return hope and respect back to the Knicks. You keep us up to date especially the old school fans like myself who live out of the state and depend on you to keep it real. Big Ups to Bohonon for the psost .. this is what makes NY the best sports city in the world. Our city never sleeps and neither do OUR FANS. Keep it flowing. Peace!!!
@Sec11
well i never said america is perfect...LOL
but you know what i mean.
differences of opinion are good
and no i am not voting for mcsame...LOL
the reason i said i would do that deal
is because i don't trust zach
and i don't even think zach wants
to be a knick...so with that said
i hope he proves me wrong and pulls
down 20 double doubles this year
and we trade him for some useful parts
but if i am right
and he does not flourish
in d'antoni's system and he becomes
frustrated not being on the court enough
and his numbers drop
i want people to admit they were wrong
and if zach proves me wrong
i will admit i was wrong
its all love
@Harlem
good post man.
you made some real good points
@bulljive
i totally agree
and i have been saying the same things
the frontline we have now is a disaster
zach and curry don't scare anyone
Bokonon - like I wrote before - nice post man.
In his interview with Boomer of WFAN, D'Antoni said he sees Zach basically making the leap next year - 20 and 10 guy on a winning team. That's something a lot of posters here don't feel so confident about. I'm not completely sold on this - we can play wait and see, but projecting Zach as an all-star makes for a stressful wait.
@ Harlem - rebuilding and being (or becoming in the Knicks' case) competitive is hard enough to pull off that any promises to accomplish this are basically hopes. To me, rebuilding is essential, even if it means uncompetitiveness at first, so I am on board with your "get rid of them" philosophy. Even if there is no big free agent score in 2010, dumping the bloated contracts and underachievers leads to the financial flexibility to do something. But I'm reluctant to dump drat picks - a flow of good young players is the lifeblood of a rebuilding team. One of Isiah's worst habits was dealing away picks while piling up salary. Utah has one of the next two picks, and odds are the other one will be lotto. Here's the question: what is more valuable to the rebuilding effort - dumping Zach or having at least one pick over the next two drafts?
As for the Duhon signing - I'm sure D'Walsh have their reasons, but splitting the mid-level for a cheap shot blocker like Chris Anderson and a different back-up point guard makes more sense to me.
that's "draft" picks above
@HarleminMD
I think it's ok if we're terrible next year. In fact, in some ways, I think it's preferable.
It seems to me that we all mostly agree that in order to have a shot at Lebron in 2010, or any other top-level free agent, we not only need to have the cap room, but we'll have to have a halfway-decent team in place.
And, as you just justifiably pointed out, there is a good chance that our team next year could be pretty atrocious.
If we agree on those points, I ask you this: what are we going to do in between now and 2010 to make our team that much better? Do you think we're going to pick up a real impact player through a trade? As we've discussed in this blog over and over again, nobody wants our players. At least, they don't want them in a way that would help us net a stud in return. When GMs see our trade chips (either this year or next), the only thing they see is a bunch of anthropomorphized, mafia-don sized, walking, talking wads of cash. They have contracts that can come off the books, and that's it.
We’re not getting back a stud in return for an expiring contract. If you can really carry a team, and are worth a max-type deal, your team doesn’t trade you, unless the GM is a hall of fame player from the team that he’s trading with and has no integrity whatsoever.
Maybe you could trade for a pretty good secondary player (which I still personally think is stretching it), but even if we trade for a pretty good secondary player, is that going to make us that much better? Is that so much of an upgrade from what we have already?
We already have guys who can become pretty good secondary players -- but the Wilson Chandlers and Jamal Crawfords and David Lees of the world, no matter how much they improve, aren't really the kind of players that other guys will get excited to play with. Let’s be honest with ourselves.
But then you have someone like Gallo. Now I know that Gallinari has taken some flack in this blog and many other places, but he has the potential to be a special kind of player. By all accounts, he's a great teammate. By all accounts, he really cares about getting everyone involved in the game, and by all accounts he really wants to win. If he can up his strength a little bit, which looking at his frame, I think won't be that difficult, and grow an inch or two, a player of that size with that purported set of skills has a chance to be something special, the kind of player that other players want to play with.
If we stink out the Garden for one more year, we have a chance to bring in another special talent. Then you make Crawford or Chandler or yes, even a Curry or Randolph, your third best player (before you add Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc.), and you're starting to have a team that someone might be excited to play for.
Now I'm not a huge college fan, so I don't know if there's a perceived lack of star-quality players in this year's draft, but I'm of the mind that there's almost always 1 or 2 enormous talents in every draft, so I don't particularly believe in that argument. At least, I won’t hear any of it before the college season even starts.
I know it's a painful thought, and I hope that this team at least plays with pride, effort, and smarts (now I'm starting to push it) this year, but I don't think it would be that bad if we gave major minutes to the young guys, worked through the growing pains a little bit, trotted out some not-quite-optimal lineups, and got a premium draft pick in the process.
I gotta give it to all the fixers. Disputations we have, but aside from occasional incursions by potty mouths, its always about arriving at the truth. That's what makes it so fun to be a part of. Guys don't just assert something, they use logic, critical thinking, craft their arguments well (Boko!), and when they may have overlooked an angle, or put too much emphasis on this or that, their brothers tell em so.
Just like the playground, win and stay on, lose and you get to sit and reflect.
But the Game's always waiting for you for when you return.
That indeed is a great post. One of the best I've read, and I've been around these blogs for a few years now. It feels like such a breath of fresh air to be in the offseason without Isiah running the ship. Remember with him, we would never have access to the team like this. Everything he did was closed mouth and under wraps. That was probably Dolan's doing but at the end of the day it sucked. Yeah our players aren't the most sought after players out there, but we have to wait and see what the situation looks like at the trade deadline. There may be some teams because of injuries that may need a player like Zach, Jeffries or whoever. What if we made that deal for Zach, then around late January a team in playoff position was in hot pursuit of a role player like Zach. Don't get it wrong guys, there are coaches out there that can handle players like Ron Ron, Zach and Sheed. Let's just keep doing what we're doing.....and that's making sensible moves one by one to reduce this pay roll and stay as competitive as possible. Right now we're probably looking at:
Duhon
Crawford
Chandler
Jeffries
Zach
Countdown to training camp has begun!!!
Alan, you should have a countdown clock till training camp.
@ Across the Hudson - you've spelled out why I don't want to see the Knicks trade away their first rounder, even if it means dumping Zach's albatross of a contract.
I enjoy reading the posts on this blog. I live in Australia and also have coached basketball at a Sydney high school for 30+ years. You can't make judgements on how the team will perform in the upcoming season based on their current personnel. You can have the same roster as last year and have an entirely different team. That's because players relate and respond differently to different coaches. It would appear that D'Antoni will be more organised than his predecessor and that he will provide clear direction to the team. This is the sort of atmosphere where players thrive. They don't want to be going in one direction only to reverse direction a few weeks later. I think we could see a few suprises in terms of the performances of players currently on the roster. This is a fresh start for the team and I believe it will be invigorating for many of the players currently here. Don't judge the D'Antoni/Walsh partnership until the season is finished and even then you have to look deeper than just the team's won/lost record.
Also I wanted to add that we have to package DLee with Zach to get someone to take Zach. Which works out good for us because we cant afford to sign a 10-10 guy to a huge 9 or 10 million dollar bloated contract anyways..
Also I dont think we should trade Steph and Malik unless we add someone with only a one year deal or a younger guy with a friendly contract. There is a reason why these guys have a trade value and its the same reason we need them, they come off the books..
I agree with not trading picks unless we just have no other way...I would hate for us not to be players in 2010 just because we wouldnt package a pick with zach to get rid of him..
Keeping 2010 alive
with some Bulljive
With all due respect to Bulljive and Harlem, I've got to agree with Pete. I detest Zach Bo, but giving up a 1st round draft pick just to eleviate ourselves from his gargantuan contract is subtraction, well, by subtraction.
And while big moves are fun and exciting for the fans, the smart moves take a long time to work out. In fact, I'm quite pleased that Walsh hasn't done anything that "splashy" thus far. Isiah defined the old Knicks with "splashy" moves, which is why the other GMs in the league continue to low ball Donnie on the trade front.
By playing his cards incredibly close to the vest, he's changing the management culture of the team, which, will have a profound effect on the team's overall culture later on down the line.
FYI,
For bokonon....who was one of the origional crew @ Knicks Knation....he posts like that every time and I've read even better posts from him these past years....... However, this quote is wrong and bokonon will agree " Knicks management couldn't care less if I approve and that is the way it should be."
This is not true bokonon ....... you remember when ed drossman made a call to MSG and Poof.....Charley Ward was gone..remember? LOL
Alan
The week you're bought by MSG, out comes this "it doesn't matter what I think" type of post?
A clue for a Knick fans: It DOES matter what you think, especially if what you think makes it to David Stern's desk (which is how WE got Zeke reassigned to Siberia in the first place).
This is a great post because it articulates the accumulated angst and anger of Knicks fans who are tired of a deck seat on the JDS (James Dolan Ship) Knicktanic.
A wise man learns from his mistakes. A fool makes the same mistakes over and over again. What is worse than a fool? We not only make the same mistakes over and over we dream up new and unique mistakes to make. Are we over that hump with Donnie Walsh and Mike D'Antoni now in charge? Normally I'd give a resounding "Yes!!!" but the last 7 years have turned an eternal optimist into a Heath Ledger/Joker Type A+ Cynic. My Knick glass is not half empty! It's broken and I stepped on a shard and it got infected and now they will have to amputate my whole foot! ; ) Thanks Knicks for making me as gimpy as Frederic Weiss and as venomous as Pete Vescey (who by the way also posterized Fred ; ).
I place all the blame for every dismal thing we have done and all the good things we could have done on the stooped shoulders of James Dolan. All I can think of for the reason why Dolan has let Knicks fans have it right between the eyes is he must be a closet Celtics fan.
I'm pretty much over paying players and coaches NOT to play and coach for the Knicks. I am rapidly getting over the Isiah (Watch Me Fondle While the Knicks Franchise Burns) Thomas Regine [SIC] although I still wonder why he can't get someone to seam up the shoulders of his suit jackets properly. ; ) The last 7 years have hardened my heart to almost anything Knick related but I do have one request for James Dolan that does not involve taking a walk till his hat floats.
Don't let LeBron James go to the Nets! Do whatever it takes to bring King James to Madison Square Garden. Offer him Derek Jeter's Little Black Book. Offer him ARod's Little Black Book. Offer him Marv Albert's Little Black Book. Get D'Antoni's contacts in Italy to offer him Ciccolina to play with Marbury for Benetton Treviso. Do what needs to be done but LBJ playing in Brooklyn will be the saddest moment of all for this Knick fan in the 42 years I have been a fan. Stop the madness!