Will Oscar De La Hoya knock Manny Pacquiao off the top of the P4P list?
Now the other shoe drops.
On Sunday we wrote that a defeat to Manny Pacquiao could jeopardize Oscar De La Hoya's hall of fame status. Here is the post.
Today, we ask if a loss to De La Hoya drops Pacquiao from the top of boxing's pound-for-pound ratings. Again, it's a legitimate question. This one is a little easier to answer, because P4P ratings are all about the present. Really, any loss would knock you from the top spot. So the answer is yes, a loss to Oscar would drop Manny from the top spot.
But does Manny deserve to be there to begin with?
Just remember that his biggest wins have come against faded superstars Erik Morales and Marco Antonio Barrera. In the opinion of this corner, Manny is there by default, a fighter to fill the void when Floyd Mayweather Jr. retired.
A quick glimpse at The Ring magazine's pound-for-pound ratings has Manny first, Juan Manuel Marquez second, Joe Calzaghe third and Bernard Hopkins fourth. Fair enough. But the question remains, is Manny there for lack of a better idea?
Here's a note regarding the Oscar De La Hoya hall-of-fame post. Don in Yuma left an interesting, spirited response to the question, Can Manny knock Oscar out of the hall of fame. Don compared Oscar losing to Manny like Sugar Ray Robinson and Jou Louis losing late in their career. To Don's point, Oscar losing to Manny is like Joe Louis losing to a middleweight or Sugar Ray Robinson losing to a lightweight.
And no, even if Louis had lost to a middleweight in his final fight and Robinson lost to a lightweight in his final fight, it would not preclude them from the hall of fame. But Don, can you really compare the career of Oscar to that of Louis or Robinson. Name the hall-of-famers that Oscar has defeated? A faded Pernell Whitaker? A shot Julio Cesar Chavez?
Don -- and all those who post comments -- thanks for reading and keep the comments coming.
-- CASSIDY
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Comments (94)
It never surprises me how when someone questions Manny's place as the undisputed P4P king that they begin to discredit all his achievements preceding to this fight. First, Morales and Barrera were faded superstars (no mention of Marquez whom Manny dropped three times in the first round and due to a judging error resulted in a draw). Second, the insinuation that Marquez won those fights against Pacquiao without noting that Marquez ran away from Pacquiao for FOUR YEARS before he agreed to fight him again and not surprisingly...lost! Thirdly, you laud other fighters like Hopkins and Calzaghe who you yourself, by placing Barrera as faded when Manny first beat him (Barrera was 29 in 2004), would in reality regard as relics. Fourthly, Floyd Mayweather Jr. may have been the P4P king before Manny, but can you really say that without thinking Miguel Cotto, Antonio Margarito, and Paul Williams hanging over that sentence? Nothing hangs over Manny when you say he's the P4P king because he beat everyone he's faced and he's faced all of them.
And Cassidy, you bring it to a whole new level when you denigrate de la Hoya's achievements just so you can ultimately bring any level of achievement by Manny, if he wins this fight, as unimportant. You bring up Louis and Robinson: were you even born at that time and do you really know the caliber of their opponents the way you downgrade Sweet Pea or Chavez?
Manny and de la Hoya are the type of boxers that Louis and Robinson would welcome with open arms: 1) they didn't stay in one or two divisions and most importantly 2) they didn't shy away from the best of the best, win or lose. Name me any other boxer that can claim that honor.
Hey talisaypoppit.. Great post and thanks for writing. My purpose with those two posts is to stirr debate among boxing fans. You have your opinions and I think it's great that Manny has so many loyal fans... Let me address a few of your comments. No, I was not born when Louis or Robinson fought, but yes, I can unequivocally say that Louis and Robinson both had better careers than Oscar, and, for that matter, Manny too... You are right, they have not shied away from the best fighters around, and I applaud them for that. But each time Oscar fights another star, he loses. And yes, the biggest names Manny fought were already guys on the downside of their careers. Barrera turned pro at the age of 16. Thanks for writing. I enjoy the posts.
Crazy write-up. It's a very biased article. Just don't wite anymore.
I believe that Manny is always discredited because of his rabid fans. Manny's accomplishments couldn't be achieved by fighters his size and they're still trying. Sasakul was a monster puncher champion and undefeated when Manny went to his home country of Thailand to challenge him. Sasakul tasted his first knockout loss. Ledwaba was highly touted to challenge the best in his weight level and at his peak when Pacquiao knocked him out cold. Barrera was just recently fresh from humiliating the best featherweight in Haseem Hamed when he was TKO'd in the 11th by Pacman. Marquez did a disappearing act after his first fight with Pacquiao and resurfaced after 4 years because the money is just right. He turned down a $750,000 offer for the rematch. For 9 years Manny is still making a name for himself. How many fighters can say that of himself? Just a handful. I believe Manny deserves the accolades. The solid proof of it is all in the box office, not news articles.
Indeed a very biased one. Chatchai Sasakul then was faded, Ledwaba was faded too, how about Gabriel Mira? Or Oscar Larios who is once again a champion right now in his division....they are all faded too.
The highly touted Ullysis Solis who is now making waves in Mexican Boxing scene is indeed very faded. Barrera in 2004 was faded too, but the first Morales-Manny fight detractors keep mum on the very reason Manny got headbutted and sported a nasty cut all through out the fight. Ok he was faded too. Emmanuel Lucero "The Carnicero" whom the Mexicans call he was faded too when Manny faced him. Hector Velasquez I feel was also faded.
People who don't know a thing or two want Manny to fight the likes of Humberto Sotto, Joan Guzman, Edwin Valero. They don't know their boxing. You want Manny to face Humberto Sotto whom Bobby Pacquiao almost knocked out? Manny deserves to be in that skill level you guys think?? We have a gem here and don't let him waste his time in training just to fight B-fighters. People scoff at the idea when an undefeated Juan Diaz then was being talked about being Manny's next opponent, then suddenly Diaz gets his ass kicked by Nate Campbell(is he faded too?) and now Manny has his chances.
Almost all boxing pundits laughed at the idea of Pacquiao being Matched up against the undefeated Ricky Hatton then, and after he got an ass-whooping from FLoyyd, now they give Manny a slim chance, hahaha. It's you people who are the problem here. For once in your lives be among the first. Be a believer.
And come December 6th Manny will show you how. Peace.
Indeed a very biased write-up. Chatchai Sasakul then was faded, Ledwaba was faded too, how about Gabriel Mira? Or Oscar Larios who is once again a champion right now in his division....they are all faded too.
The highly touted Ullysis Solis who is now making waves in Mexican Boxing scene is indeed very faded. Barrera in 2004 was faded too, but the first Morales-Manny fight detractors keep mum on the very reason Manny got headbutted and sported a nasty cut all through out the fight. Ok he was faded too. Emmanuel Lucero "The Carnicero" whom the Mexicans call he was faded too when Manny faced him. Hector Velasquez I feel was also faded.
People who don't know a thing or two want Manny to fight the likes of Humberto Sotto, Joan Guzman, Edwin Valero. They don't know their boxing. You want Manny to face Humberto Sotto whom Bobby Pacquiao almost knocked out? Manny deserves to be in that skill level you guys think?? We have a gem here and don't let him waste his time in training just to fight B-fighters. People scoff at the idea when an undefeated Juan Diaz then was being talked about being Manny's next opponent, then suddenly Diaz gets his ass kicked by Nate Campbell(is he faded too?) and now Manny has his chances.
Almost all boxing pundits laughed at the idea of Pacquiao being Matched up against the undefeated Ricky Hatton then, and after he got an ass-whooping from FLoyyd, now they give Manny a slim chance, hahaha. It's you people who are the problem here. For once in your lives be among the first. Be a believer.
And come December 6th Manny will show you how. Peace.
Wow, what an article. How could pacman be there by deffault since he beat champions and who do you recomend the p4p king right now is? Marquez? i think they are about tie but since pacman beat him in a very close fight i would give a little edge to pacman.
A very biased article indeed
this is biased, i wonder why this is posted in the so-called "The NEUTRAL Corner"
A very biased write-up!
Just don't write again fagot! You're so fucking stupid!
JUst try fight barrera your self if you can call him fadded...
STUPID!!!
Now this guy is a stupid moronic writer!!!!! Why this people cannot accept the fact that Manny Pacquiao is the P4P now? You know why people? because they cannot believe that an Asian hero conquer the best fighter that they can offer for the Pac.. When Pac defeated Ledwaba for the IBF super bantamweight nobody cares because he is just a up coming boxer then Pac defeated Barrera now the "sour graping" people cannot accept again and more excuses they said theirs a problem with Barrera's camp and then they have there rematch and still Barrera look like a c level boxer!!! Who can forget the epic trilogy of PAC and Morales? Morales defeated PAc in there first encounter did you hear us sour graping and delivered some excuses? No because we are man with balls to accept that sometimes a great boxer will win some and may lose some fights!!! and because Pac has a heart of a champion they have there 2nd fight and l00k what happen to Morales for the first time on his career he hit the canvass and take a lose and also in there last fight still the same happen....the bottom line her guys when Manny defeated any fighter that they can offer these morons always say's the ff: are 1. he is just a washed up boxer 2nd. he past his prime already 3rd. they cannot accept the verdict of the fight(remember the gay marquez)!!! Cassidy just watch on Dec. 6 you will see why Manny is the P4P king!!! your such a moron....
by default? have you forgotten that there were time that manny took and even shared that position from active floyd. Therefore this is not the first time manny have his P4P King position.
Yup if thats gonna happen. But i dont see that on this Fight!!!
Stupid one-sided write up but congratulations you've attracted boxing people to read...
Will Oscar De La Hoya knock Manny Pacquiao off the top of the P4P list?????
didn't u had a second look on this crap???
and u call this the NEUTRAL CORNER???
WHATS SO NEUTRAL ABOUT THAT???
maybe, but i don't think so, because manny on his prime time..and hoya's is on his down time..there's possible hoya might win by disession, but not knock out...
Very shallow reasoning by the writer.
If he's a newbie writing about the sport, i would understand.
Default because the top boxers an upcoming beats just because they lost are faded?
Of course, whenever a younger and better fighter comes the reigning fighters at the top are perceived to be fading when they lose.
Very bad writeup and not well thought of.
Me, oh my.
I wasted my time reading your article.
Crap.
Who hired you?
The writer is faded!!!! not the pacman.
eh...sira ulo ka pala e! boknong! tungak! botroy!
translation: biased article
LOL, writer gets owned by his readers ^_^
quote:"LOL, writer gets owned by his readers ^_^"
the writer could be faded too... lol
they should take this article down and put TalisayPoppit's post in it's place, it's written better and actually has valid points.. LOL
quote from Cinco: "they should take this article down and put TalisayPoppit's post in it's place, it's written better and actually has valid points.. LOL"
you should have considered mine, it's way far better...lol
Indeed very biased. When Manny beat Morales, Barrera, Marquez, etc.. pundits will say he beats old fighters.. But when Marquez beats Cassamayor, Calzaghe beats B-Hop, they all say they beat fighters in their prime (huh! am i dreaming here? 37 or 43 is still prime? maybe because Pacman is not the opponent.. hehehehe) and gave their praises and skyrocketted them in their P4P listings. I'm a fan but not a Pacnut, but I think there's something wrong with boxing. Come Dec 6, the whole family or clan will be watching the Dream match with eating and drinking beers, win or lose! This must be boxing all about, fun and excitement!!!!! Racism has no place in boxing or even in the world! Peace!
Indeed, it's really a biased article. I wonder who hired this
senseless writer? All he has do on this is to discredit what manny
has accomplished. It's a racist article. a racist writer.
This coming dec. 6 you will be enlightened and hopefully
you will give respect to any boxer regardless of his nationality.
Yeah then lets replace the title to "Will TalisayPoppit knock out Robert Cassidy off the Neutral Corner?" What a biased article.. Come play date you will see that you are wrong and that you dont deserve to write articles. And dont go writing apologies or something like you realizing you where wrong after the match. A few more weeks... Lets see..
cassidy,
comes dec. 6 and you'll see with your very own big retina OCA will kneel down to the KING PACMAN. And DON'T EVER SAY pac's prevail over the FADED warrior from mexico.
You are in UNneutral corner. You bitch!
Hey Mr. Cassidy,
PAGKA WALAY AYO ANANG IMONG ARTIKULO BAY! KLARO KAAYO KA NGA NASINA NGA TAGA ASIA ANG POUND FOR POUND KING!
Please don't be racist when writing an article in a web site! You may lose readers of that bad attitude. By the way, are you black or white?
Regarding the first paragraph please find some Filipino-Cebuano friends of yours to translate it to you. Don't dare to ask Filipino-Tagalog to translate it to you. Tagalogs doesn't know the Cebuano dialect too. You are both racist!!! Tagalogs hate Cebuanos because Cebuanos are the best boxers to come from the Philippines, MANNY PACQUIAO, NONITO DONAIRE, GERRY PENALOSA, AJ BANAL, REY BAUTISTA, Z GORRES ETC., ETC.
Some people just hate loosing. Much more if the the person they hate keeps winning. Its not fair to say that Morales, Barrera, and every fighter pacman faced where all faded after they were beaten. The statistical probability of your claims are just too low, meaning, there's a very small chance of you saying the truth. If we make claims, it should be accompanied by evidence. Just look how many of the fighters where champions, or at the top in their weight divisions by the time they faced Pacman. Also look at the mean age of the fighters pacman defeated when they faced him. You are totally wrong if you say that they were all faded when they faced the pacman. It is just that pacmans blows speed up their aging process. Their adrenal glands stopped secreting adrenaline and their testicles stopped producing testoterone after they were all badly beaten by the king.
Let Mayweather, Hatton and all the best available for pacman, then you'll have all your doubts forgotten, and you'll have all the time to write more articles of faded, drained and hormone-less mammals who were "co-incidentally" dominated by the Asian hero. If JuanMa was the sour looser on the ring, you are the sour looser on paper. Just accept the fact that there's already a new KING. and all we have to do is wait for the time that all who thought were better fighters than him, and all who thought were wiser boxing writers, fold their knees and bow their heads, one by one, in respect to the the new KING.
To maxi of Danao:
Bro., don't be obscure by saying Filipino-Tagalog hates Filipino-Cebuano, we have common denominator and that is "FILIPINO" why hate each other? kaya naman di tayo umaasenso because of this attitude.
Why Marquez has the no. 2 spot on P4P list?? coz is beats a 37yo Casamayor. WOW!!! plain stupidity don't you think writer?
What if Manny beats Casamayor... maybe you would say... oh coz Casamayor is a faded fighter and i wont give Manny credit for defeating an old and faded fighter.. hahahaha. you are stupid!
to Maxi of Danao: Please dont call yourself a Filipino! You accuse people of being racist yet you want to know if someone is black or white? Get a life you hypocrite!!
Dugay ka na sa siyudad, tonto ka pa! Stupid!!
Ferdie.
nice Ferdz.. ang puso mo..
this guy is a moron! how could he write something like that?!! morales barrera faded?! faded my ass!! i hope u get beat up on the street and get your faded brain tune up a bit and please don't write anymore you are nothing but a "kupal" I hope you're not a mexican cuz you're a big disgrace dudes. robert cassidy you got your picture showing up there not a good idea really..
Hey Mr Robert Cassidi, are u a writer with ur own imaginition.I think you are lossers when pacman faces those guys you are mentioning.If you need to recover your money then send me an email walskiete@yahoo.com. For your information, your idol Marquez is a real faded boxer who are murmuring when he lost to pacman. Did you notice that Marquez was knockdown by pacman everytime they box inside the ring. Why are you telling that marquez is number 1 candidate for P4P. Oh shit man. for me I convince Marquez win the P4p spot if there are only four (4) persons involved for voting. First you, second Marquez, 3rd Marquez Manager and third marquez father...Oh shit.
People usually discredit pacquiao's achievemt by saying he beat "faded" fighters. But look, the "faded" Barrera, who was demolished by pacquiao, eventually beat Erik Morales in their rubber match who in turn defeat pacquiao in a classic 12 round war. That is the chronology of events. Okay, I admit, morales was never the same after the Rahim upset but remember el terrible is getting the best of the exchanges in the earlier rounds but it was pacquiao's relentless power that made morales"old overnight" as some sports scribe described. Oh, and by the way, I don't think Marquez is a faded boxer, he's just way too crafty for pacman, but look, after two grueling fights, and very competitive one at that to score, I guess the man who scored 4 knockdowns can at least validate his victory, maybe not as the more dominant man, but the better fighter.
cassidy is a RACIST!
FUCK the RACIST!!!
As-salaamu ‘alaikum to all muslim brothers!
We would like to declare all out war to this fucking Racist!!! Robert Cassidy!!!!! $%#@&*^%$
Lets bomb thier house, kidnapped his family and torture them!!!
and give him what he deserved....
This man deserve to die!!! Die you BITCH!!!!!
As-Samu 'alaikum wal-la'na to you ROBERT!!!!
We know you Robbie, son of a former middleweight contender who never had the chance to become a champion - no wonder where you got your genes- a loser. Fucking BIG LOSER!!!
As-salaamu ‘alaikum to all muslim brothers!
We would like to declare all out war to this fucking Racist!!! Robert Cassidy!!!!! $%#@&*^%$
Lets bomb thier house, kidnapped his family and torture them!!!
and give him what he deserved....
This man deserve to die!!! Die you BITCH!!!!!
As-Samu 'alaikum wal-la'na to you ROBERT!!!!
We know you Robbie, son of a former middleweight contender who never had the chance to become a champion - no wonder where you got your genes- a loser. Fucking BIG LOSER!!!
DID YOU KNOW THAT HIS DAD?
Former middleweight contender Bobby "Irish" Cassidy is a big loser just like his son. His pop was indeed a contender but cant pull the trigger so he nerver got the chance to become a champion.
Robert like his father was also a frustraetd boxer himself, just like his pop only worse since he never made it to pros...
What a loser!!!!
I'm Mexican and for people to keep saying that Barrera, Morales, Marquez or any other Mexican champion that they are faded fighters really hurts me as a boxing fan. Sure, they were beaten, but there is no shame is saying that they were beaten by a great boxer in Pacquiao. And these Mexican greats admitted being defeated by the Pacman (except Marquez of course). I will also admit that I love the way Pacquiao fights, he's aggressive, and his fights are not a waste of money. So please do not discredit the Pacman for your own biased opinion. Now I wonder why you still have a job as a writer, you should be one of those people who wear white cone shape hoodies you know, racist dumb shit.
Anonymous/Ferdie
Maxi Danao is hypocrite indeed. Well, either that or he's just too naive to realize what he just said.
biased corner perhaps???
Wahahahahahaha!!!!!!
Nagpapadalaang mga tangang Pac-Nuts dito. Sakay naman kayo.
Wahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
Nalalaman kung sino ang marunong sa boxing at hindi. Alam lang halos ng naandito na nagpost e si Pacquiao.
Wahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
Do your homework people.
Di lang si Pacquiao ang magaling sa boxing.
Wahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
Wahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
Wahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
Wahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
Nice way of getting hits in your blog. Using the stupid Pacmaniacs' idolization to increase your hits. It's good tactics, a little cheated, but whatever floats your boats man.
Keep in mind though, I've dealt with a lot of Filipinos. If you piss one off, they will never forget you and try to get even with you. Most likely, getting stabbed while walking out. If you value your lives a little, be sure they can never find you IRL. It's a suggestion for you people here at The Neutral Corner.
It may seem a tad illogical but Filipinos are not logically adept. Especially when they are pissed off.
Take care.
hey ROBBER cASSidy! I think you're still fixated to your anal phase....did you notice your last name....remember during the debut of pacman in US with Ledwaba...pacquiao was a last minute replacement with only 2 weeks notice prior the fight... pacman was the underdog on that encounter... but he made Ledwaba looked like an old man with cataracts on both eyes amigo....he never did see the straight lefts of pacman coming...next there was barrera...he was a p4p boxer at that time...but I DONT believe you cASSidy that barrera was wasted during their bout but instead Pacman made barrera looked like a toddler sitting on his wet diaper trying to figure out if he's gonna call out his mom or not... when he felt the smack of manny's straight left on his face...he acted more of toddler in tantrums than an old man....did you remember his bro bring a lollipop atop the ring for his little bro while he himself was also weeping.....before I forget cASSidy...this mama marquez whom you consider macho coz he beat down a "young"? Casamayor but even a second grader could say that he might be a grandpa already coz of his hairless apparel.... but when marquez licked the left straights of pacman....4x ...4x...4x... cASSidy.... marquez never looked old to me... but he looked more of an muchacha spreading her legs for a "toro" (try to watch the third ko of marquez).....now you made all praises and accolades for marquez coz he beat down casamayor which I guess is much, much older than barrera and morales whom you considered washed up grandpas......anyways.....if you happen to see all the fights of Manny Pacquiao since his amateurs days here in the Philippines until he came across elite fighters of mexico,etc...... which I happened to luckily seen it all in DVD's....I will say that all the opponents/adversaries of pacman looked-like a sluggish, old, wasted, washed-up fighters....because of Pacman's blinding speed, power, relentless assault, agility, athletism....amen
Stay cool guys....... as what this writer said he wrote for the purpose of a debate ok... plain and simple... there is nothing to argue about it. we are all entitled to our opinions ok... JUST BE COOL LET OUR PACMAN DO THE TALKING OK..
cool and peace brothers
The writer is right. I also did the same opinion when I become the third man between Barerra and Pacman's first fight. Shame on me. huhuhuhuhuhuh. hey writer I think we dont have place in this world. Lets go back to the place where we belong.
-biased article!!. . cassidy, tikman mo ang KAMAO ni PACMAN!!. . hehe
hey bob:
I think, should klitscho and manny pacquiao ever meet and manny eventually comes out victorious, your perspective would always remain steadfast. Well, I can't blame you, you're just too bright to explain to us the meaning of myopia.
a neutral write up should not have any opinions but just facts. what a dumb writer.
robert cassidy looks like loser...
and oh, a fagot.
if morales and barrera are faded by the time they fought pacman then can you name a better boxer on their division that the pacman should fight?
fuck
this is a crazy one sided write-up,, this fuckin writer doesnt know about boxing, a very shallow reasoning and a hell of racist...go home and plant kamote!! on Dec. 6 you will see Mr. Cassidy that ODLH will kiss the canvass and have a very painful ang bitter defeat,,
Do not ignore the fact that barrera and morales were on top of their division and belongs to top 10 of p 4 p list when they were overwhelme by manny out of the list...like vasquez and marquez of present. Ledwaba was se emingly unbeatable a legend to his country when manny dispatch him almost out of the ring.JMM was beaten black and blue and was even brought to hospital during their first bout and w/o the help of the judge JMM is a no commodity now. Now JMM was bragging that he won the second fight how can he won that.remember that when he rocked by manny he manage to hold on by holding on to the ring before the bell ring out. the referri failed to call it a knockeddown. Remember Larios now who he is now. hopkins should settle first his defeat to jones jr. and taylor b4 claiming the no. p 4 p slot.. JMM is being overated because of his win against an aging warrior like cassamayor...calzaghe must not retire after beating former p 4 p king Jones jr. he must beat first Taylor and Margarito to claim the no. slot. Also take note that JMM moves up because Cris John also moves up...Also take note that the ranking of ivan calderon is relatively low..
Robert... When Manny fought Lebwaba, majority of the boxing experts picked Lebwaba to win the fight. When Manny fought Barrera, Barerra was I believed the number 5 P4P (correct me if I’m wrong). When Manny fought Morales, Morales won the first fight (can you consider him faded?). When Manny fought Marquez, it was a draw but the judge admitted that he scored the fight wrong (Manny won).
Now, Manny is fighting Oscar who is 36 years old. How about if Manny win the fight, are you going to say that Oscar is faded fighter too (knowing that majority of what you call a boxing expert like you keep on saying that it is a mismatch)?
Robert who is your top 10 P4P lists? If Manny is there on defaults?
PEACE!PEACE!PEACE!PEACE!PEACE!PEACE!PEACE!PEACE!PEACE!PEACE!PEACE!PEACE!
PEOPLE, IT'S ONLY BOXING!!!!!
IT'S ONL;Y BOXING.ANYWAYS,WHO EVER WINS ON THIS FIGHT,YOU CAN'T GET ANYTHING.NOR PACMAN OR DELA HOYA WILL GIVE YOU SHARE OF THEIR WINNINGS.IDIOTS!!
WHEN PACMAN BLASTED LEDWABA, BARRERA MORALES AND OTHERS, AGED 27 TO 30, YOU CALLED THEM FADED. WHEN MARQUEZ DEMOLISHED A 37 Y.O. CASAMAYOR, MARQUEZ WAS PRAISED TO HIGH HEAVENS! IN REPLY TO THE FIRST POST ABOVE, YOU SAID THAT BIG NAME FIGHTERS PACMAN FOUGHT WERE ON THE DOWNSIDE BECAUSE USING BARRERA AS AN EXAMPLE, HE STARTED FIGHTING AT AGE 16. BARRERA WAS 29 WHEN DESTROYED BY PACMAN. PACMAN STARTED FIGHTING AT 15, SO YOU MEAN TO SAY, PACMAN NOW 29 Y.O. IS DOWNHILL? IN YOUR ARTICLE YOU IMPLY THAT PACMAN IS P4P KING BY MISTAKE. SO WHO'S YOUR CHOICE? MARQUEZ WHO BRAVELY DESTROYED 37 Y.O. "YOUNG" CASAMAYOR? YOUR LOGIC IS QUESTIONABLE BUT YOU YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO SHAMELESSLY QUESTION THE RANKINGS. YOU GIVE RECOGNITION AND CREDIT ONLY AS YOU WISH EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY AND IN THE WRONG PROFESSION. YOU EVEN HAD THE TEMERITY TO WRITE AN ARTICLE EVEN THOUGH YOUR FIRST PRIORITY IS TO HAVE YOUR HEAD CHECKED FIRST BY A PSYCHIATRIST.
ONE MORE THING, IN YOUR REPLY TO THE FIRST POST ABOVE, YOU ALSO THINK THAT ITS GREAT PACMAN HAS MANY LOYAL FANS---- AS IF IT WAS A SURPRISE ! WHY, WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? DONT YOU KNOW WHERE YOU ARE? DO YOU NEED HELP? no no not me I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm just a janitor in a mental hospital here in the Philippines
I've enjoyed reading all the comments and thanks for leaving them. It's sad that some of you have to resort to vulgarity and violence. I am going to do my best to address some of the questions people have left for me. I do believe that when Floyd Mayweather Jr. retired,it left a huge void at the top of the P4P rankings. Personally, I really don't put much stock in P4P rankings. But I would put Joe Calzaghe at the top of my list. With that said, I am not a wild fan of Calzaghe. But it's hard to pick againt a fighter who has never lost or has never had a draw. I do believe that Calzaghe will lose to Roy Jones. I think stylistically, the matchup favors Jones. I have never said Marquez should be rated ahead of Manny, I have never written that Marquez deserved the decision against Manny and I've never heaped praise on Marquez for beating Casamayor. So many of you are misinformed. The reality is that Barrera and Morales were both past their primes when Manny beat them. This is an opinion shared by many boxer writers. Barrera was on the downside of his career before he fought Morales the first time. That was three years before he fought Manny. As for Morales, he has six career losses. Five of them came within his last six fights. Two of those were against Manny. Do you really believe he was still in his prime? I look forward to corresponding with you again after the fight.
Hi Bob. About the vulgarity and "violence"comments here. Don't worry, I am vouching that pinoys never walk the talk in that sense, it's just in the culture especially in "talk" that we say things we don't really mean, just to impress. My apologies for them.
Now to boxing, it is my first time to hear Barrera not at his prime when he fought Manny Pacquiao the first time. And now you even go further by saying Barrera wasn't even at peak when he fought Morales the first time around! Wow! I've been with pundits more than a decade now and what a revelation that was my dear Bob.
So when was Morales' peak then? When was Marquez'? Or better when was Pacquiao's? I smell bias in your statement. A cop-out from admitting the truth. Too many "ifs" to make a fighter appear better than he really is. The sad reality is the "faded" debate really is used as a cop-out to save an obviously nut-hugged fighter from admitting a legitimate loss. Want someone faded? Casamayor to me was really "faded" when he faced Marquez.
Look, another factor in determining the "fadedness" of a fighter is the level of opposition which YOUR Calzaghe is highly a suspect of. Come on I am waiting for you to defend him on the level of opposition he faced against that of Pacquiao, "faded" or not, just give me names that can stand up to the likes of Ledwaba or Sasakul.(I am not mentioning Morales, Barrera or Marquez because to you they are "faded"). Just give me names of that caliber.
So never, and I say never base your Pound for Pound ratings on whether he has zero losses or not. If you do that, it shows how unobjective and amateurish you are even when one has "cherry-picked" opponents to a zero-loss record.
Know what Bob, even ESPN does not give De La hoya the "faded" label as he only fought four times this last six years or more! And Pacquiao makes sure he always makes three fights every year!! No that's wear and tear for you!! So remove six years from Oscar's current age and he actually is in boxing terms "younger" and "fresher" that Pacquiao!
As I said above please be a believer as the Asian's best ever boxer tries to be one of the best boxers ever come december 6.
Hello Sweet Science. Thanks for the note. No, I don't rate Calzaghe's quality of opposition very high. In fact, if you look at that story that I posted about him trashing Kelly Pavlik, I wrote that Pavlik has indeed faced better opposition than Calzaghe. My choice of Calzaghe at the top spot is really for lack of a better idea, as I stated earlier. I believe Mayweather was miles ahead of everyone else. The first time Barrera fought Morales, he had already had over 50 fights. He had already been a champion for five years and had been beaten very soundly twice by Junior Jones. Let me ask you this. Most people remember Sugar Ray Robinson as a middleweight, as a great middleweight champion, because that's where he had all his big and famous fights. But do you realize he lost only once when he was fighting as a welterweight. I believe he was something like 90-1. Now, even though Robinson fought on and had a great career at middleweight, his prime was at welterweight. Many, many experts say the same thing about Ezzard Charles. Some historians say he was the greatest light heavyweight in the history of the sport. But we all remember him at heavyweight because of his fights against Louis and Marciano. I tend to believe more that a fighter is in his prime at a younger age, when he's fighting at his more natural weight. Meaning, I believe Morales was in his prime at 122 pounds. Look at those fights. Please go back and look at those fights, he was devastating. 10 title fights, 8 ending by stoppage. Same with Barrera. Do you remember why the Jr Jones fights were considered such colossal upsets? It was because Barrera was so dominant. Interesting that you say that Manny is the Asian's best boxer ever. That may end up being true. But I am far from biased. Every year when I get my hall of fame ballot, the first two names I vote for are Pone Kingpetch and Myung-Woo Yuh (Korea). Sorry, I am probably spelling his name wrong. Thanks for writing, I hope to continue the dialogue.
Writer lets admit it we were wrong. I already did(admit) and i feel better. I can now sleep well and rest well. Ok!
You obviously lack knowledge on your topic. It's all babble....with no substance.
stupid moron! How can someone be on the top by default? Unless that someone has shown he can do it he deserves to be on the top of the p4p list. The pacman has shown everyone and blind people like just dont see. Get a life.. or better yet.. get another writer to write for you.
Robert..... So you consider Manny as faded fighter because he was a natural 130 lbs or Cotto because he dominated 140 before he loose at 147? or Palvik because he was a 160 lbs fighter or Hopkins because he is 40+ years old fighter?
If Manny loss to Oscar, Manny should be off the TOP (#1) P4P list. But you write that Manny is on the P4P number 1 list because he was there by default..... your reasons to back it up is so weak. I'm not a boxing expert but It will be more sence when you write that Manny is on the number one p4p list beacause Mayweather retired but don't write because the fighters Manny fought are faded fighters.
if you really don't want to offend anyone, you have to think first before you write...
cause it that way, you won't look like a faded writer.
that is, if you are one....
Quit it guys, were just here to debate...and objectively as possible that is. While I disagree with many of his views, he has some valid points in my opinion.
Barrera fighting Morales the very first time when he already has 50 fights under his belt is one valid point. We should be open with the facts first before we voice our opinion and debate. Avoid being too personal Pac fans or not, let's know the facts, and fact is we are here reacting to HIS article so when you come to think of it he cannot be the loser here, ok?
Cool arguments you raised. We look forward to your next article Bob. PEACE man.
ROBERT I DID NOT SAY YOU WROTE ACCOLADES ON MARQUEZ WHEN HE MAULED "YOUNG" 37 Y.O. CASAMAYOR. BUT MOST SPORTS WRITERS DID. WE WERE HAPPY FOR MARQUEZ BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH HE'S A TURN OFF SOMETIMES, AT LEAST HE IS A WORTHY OPPONENT OF PACMAN. BUT WE FILIPINOS ARE WONDERING WHY PACMAN COULD NOT HAVE THOSE ADULATION ENJOYED BY MARQUEZ . BECAUSE EVERY TIME PACMAN BEATS 27-30 Y.O. CHAMPS, IT WAS DISMISSED HE BEAT OLD AND FADED FIGHTERS. WE ACCEPTED IT AS THE WAY IT IS. BUT YOU BROUGHT UP AGAIN IN THIS ARTICLE THE SENSITIVE ISSUE BY CHIPPING AWAY AGAIN AT PACMAN'S CREDENTIALS. HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN YOUR SEPT.15 ARTICLE WHERE YOU QUESTIONED PACMAN'S GREATNESS COMPARED TO OTHER FILIPINO BOXING LEGENDS? OUT OF NOWHERE YOU BROUGHT OUT A FORTHCOMING BOOK " THE ARC OF BOXING", AND QUOTED ITS AUTHOR MIKE SILVER... WHOSE IDEA OF THE HERE AND NOW AND OF FACING THE FUTURE, IS BY TIME TRAVELING BACKWARDS!!! YOU REALLY WILL DO EVERYTHING TO SELL US YOUR WEIRD IDEA THAT PACMAN IS MEDIOCRE. YOU QUESTION PACMAN'S HARD EARNED ACHIEVEMENTS AND YOU NEVER QUESTIONED YOURSELF WHY YOU DO THAT AND FOR WHAT. PACMAN EARNS MILLIONS IN A SINGLE FIGHT, SOMETHING YOU WILL NOT EARN WORKING HARD IN A LIFETIME. WAS IT ENVY THAT DROVE YOU TO DO THIS DEMOLITION JOB? OR WAS IT SOMETHING CALLED "IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT." IT'S TRUE YOU DID NOT WRITE MARQUEZ TO BE RATED AHEAD OF PACMAN. BUT IT'S THE DRIFT OF YOUR ARTICLE BY QUESTIONING PACMAN'S EXISTENCE AS P4P KING. SO LET'S OVERTHROW PACMAN ...AND THE SUCCESSOR IS...MMMMMAAAAARRRRQUEZ!!! SEE?
Hello zdrx.. Thanks for the note back. If you go back and read that article, I did not say that the older Filipino fighters were better. I just asked the experts. And I thought it would be a good article for Pac Man fans to find out a little bit more about Filipino boxing history. It was the historians who offered their opinions. Not me. I believe 2 of 3 said Pac Man was the best of all time. Mike Silver was the only one who offered lengthy explanation to support his opinion, that's why his answer was the longest. Thanks. Bobby
IN REPLY TO BOXING-_SCIENCE OPINION THAT PACMAN IS THE BEST ASIAN BOXER, YOU ANSWERED THAT'S NOT TRUE BECAUSE THE FIRST 2 NAMES YOU VOTE FOR HALL OF FAME IS PONE KINGPETCH AND MYUNG WOO YUH. HA HA HA. WHO THE HELL ARE THEY? BECAUSE IF THEY ARE THAT GREAT TO EVEN MERIT YOUR PRECIOUS VOTE, YOU SHOULD KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND NOT DOUBT IF YOU SPELL THEIR NAME RIGHT!!! OH DON'T WORRY ABOUT SPELLING, THAIS AND KOREANS USE DIFFERENT ALPHABETS ANYWAY. HA HA HA! YOU HAD BEEN HARSH ON MANNY PACQIAO, WHY NOT BE KIND AND GENEROUS ENOUGH THIS TIME FOR A CHANGE BY VOTING FOR HIS YOUNGER BROTHER BOBBY PACQIAO? HA HA HA THIS IS INSANE. I KNOW IT'S MIKE SILVER'S OPINION AND YOU USED IT AS BATTERING RAM IN THE HOPE OF DAMAGING PACMAN'S STATUS AS A BOXING GREAT. DON'T THINK YOUR A CLOWN. BUT YOU'RE A BIG JOKE, MAN. .
Hello Zdrx, thanks for the note back. If you don't know who Pone Kingpetch and Myung-Woo Yuh are, then I would have to question whether or not you are really a boxing fan. The reason I put that I may have mispelled his name is that I've been told that some Korean names - when translated to english -- appear backward. Say -- "Smith John" -- instead of -- "John Smith." That's why I did that. Look forward to chatting with you again some time.
Bob there's an article in Eastside Boxing just now about this issue on Asian boxers being inducted to Hall of Fame. And the two names you mentioned are being floated there.
The writer Ted Sares must have read your article. Very timely. Nice.
Hey Sweet Science. Yes, I saw that. And I thought it was timely as well. I'll tell you, one of the coolest interviews I ever did was with Khaosai Galaxy from Thailand. That guy was intense. It's good chatting with you.
YOU MISSED MY POINT. DIDN'T YOU NOTICED I MENTIONED THAI AND KOREAN ALPHABETS? IT'S NOT AS IF I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THEM. ITS ABOUT HOW YOU WROTE ABOUT THEM, WONDERING IF YOU SPELL THEIR NAME RIGHT. I NEARLY FELL OFF MY CHAIR LAUGHING! THAT'S THE REASON I ASKED YOU THE QUESTION "WHO THE HELL ARE THEY"? BECAUSE THE POINT IS: IF YOU KNOW THOSE TWO FIGHTERS YOU ARE ROOTING FOR, YOU CAN WITH OUT A DOUBT SPELL THEIR NAME RIGHT---EVEN WITH YOUR EYES CLOSED AND ONE HAND TIED AT YOUR BACK!!! LOL. PONE IS GOOD AT WINNING TITLES WITH A VERY BAD AND HORRIBLE RECORD KEEPING IT. BIG DEAL! MYUNG-WOO YUH IS GREAT BUT SECOND BEST TO "MEDIOCRE" PACMAN BIG DEAL PART 2 HOO-HUMMM. WELL IT'S YOUR CHOICE. YOU ARE A WRITER, IT'S OKAY FOR YOU TO CRITICIZE OR DON'T GIVE CREDIT OR RECOGNITION. WHAT WE CANNOT UNDERSTAND AS FILIPINOS, IS WHY YOU HAVE TO DOWNGRADE AND DISCREDIT PACMAN'S HARD EARNED CREDENTIALS THAT HE NOW LOOK RIDICULOUS AS P4P KING. WHAT WRONG HAS HE DONE TO YOU TO DESERVE SUCH MOCKERY? OR WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU? YOU KNOW WRITERS HAVE RESPONSIBILITIES LIKE CHEFS. THEY MUST COOK GOOD FOOD. IF YOU SERVE FOOD THAT CUSTOMERS CANNOT STOMACH AND SEND THEM STAMPEDING TO A TOILET WITH DIARRHEA, YOU WILL BE KICKED AROUND THE KITCHEN UNTIL YOU LOOK STUPID.UNDERSTAND?
if all the fighters that pacman had beaten is fading then why the h**l are they in the ring. they should have retired earlier to end their career with an exclamation point! now they will use the issue of they are not in the prime of their careers when pacman beat them. in a world where fame & recognition is on your number 1 list, the name is that what matters and age is not an excuse, everyone wants to be on the top so you must always be prepared for someone dethroning you. if someone does, then he is the better man, accept it. it is just like michael jordan ending his career with the chicago bulls with an exclamation point, then he came back but cannot bring the wizards to the finals. the writer should have known this, this is just too bias.
according to this genius writer, 29 years of age is a fading age. this is not the case for the filipinos. do not put violent comments on this genius writer coz this writer is also fading, he dont know what he's saying.
to robert cassidy: tell to barrera, morales & marquez's promoters and would be promoters for pacquiao's opponent that if their bet is already fading do not, I REPEAT DO NOT PIT IT AGAINST PACMAN SO IT WILL NOT BOTHER YOU AT THE LEAST AND WILL NOT MAKE YOU WROTE BIAS OPINIONS.
you wrote this for the benefit of debate. if i can join all the forums on the net i would tell this: the promoters of barrera, morales & marquez agreed to pit their bet on pacman, they knew their bet is better than pacman, they also knew their bet is older than pacman.
this is the catch: if barrera, morales & marquez beat pacman on their fights, they would brag that "oh i beat a rising star who want to make a name at my expense, no chance in hell". on the other hand if they lose to pacman they will make an excuse "you know what i'm already past my prime, i'm old, my back aches, my legs are weak, my tooth aches, and most of all i cannot pull the trigger, hope they understand". IT BECOMES DOUBLE STANDARD FOR THEM!!!
if pacman beat ODLH i wouldn't be surprised if the headline the day after the fight will be: pacman has beaten another fading legend.
you know cassidy, pacman is very humble and wants himself to be a bridge to help his less fortunate fellow countrymen. what he achieved, HE DESERVED IT.
now you think i'm the one becoming bias?? no.
this not only applies in the world of boxing, but in other fields as well; like in basketball, baseball & hollywood, there always comes a better one. fame is not permanent.
i shouldn't be teaching you about this you are already old.
To iloss2pacmancoziamold... Thanks for the post and thanks for reading. What all of you fail to understand is that I have nothing personal against Pac Man. I am sure he is a great hero to all Filipinos. But only one person on this string has looked at this objectively, and that's Sweet Science. I stated my facts about Barrera and Morales. You guys can choose to ignore them. That's OK. I have no problem with that. But these questions are asked by many journalists in America about Pac Man. That is the job of a journalist -- to question. As for fighters competing past their prime, yes, it happens all the time. Do you know why, because they can still make a nice living and, their promoters make a nice living too. It's a free country, they are free to compete for as long as they are able. And yes, you are right about your Michael Jordan analogy and you are right about the cycle of boxing, eventually the younger lion overpowers the old lions. For Pac Man beating Barrera and Morales are very good achievements. They are future hall-of-famers. But in my opinion, they were past their prime and in my post to Sweet Science, I've demonsrated with fact and record why I feel that way. I look forward to continuing the debate.
ILOSS2PACMANCOZIAMOLD, READING HIS ARTICLE, IT SEEMS ROBERT CASSIDY WROTE TO MAKE PACMAN LOOK IRRELEVANT AND RIDICULOUS. JUST READ WHAT HE WROTE:
1) DOES MANNY DESERVED TO BE THERE(P4P KING) IN THE FIRST PLACE?
2) MANNY IS THERE BY DEFAULT.
3) IS MANNY THERE FOR LACK OF A BETTER IDEA?
BECAUSE OF THAT, I THINK HE DESERVES A DOSE OF HIS OWN MEDICINE. IT'S JUST LIKE A MIRROR PUT IN FRONT OF HIM BECAUSE WE JUST WANT HIM TO BE FAIR, NOTHING PERSONAL. I KNOW HE WILL BE A GREAT WRITER IF GIVEN THE CHANCE TO LEARN HIS LESSON LIKE WHAT HE IS GOING THROUGH NOW. I HOPE THOSE COMMENTS I POSTED (THOUGH HARSH) WILL MAKE HIM OPEN HIS EYES, MEND HIS WAYS AND HELP HIM AVOID MISTAKES IN THE FUTURE.
cassidy's opinion: they were past their prime.
this is too much to be repeated:
in a world where fame & recognition is in your number 1 list,
the name is what matters, the age is not recognized.
WHO BEAT WHO??
i am not blood thirsty, but it is the way it is.
the younger lion overpowers the old lions.
i do not know barrera & morales' boxing history but let me say that
is these two legends hasn't fought fading legends during
their (barrera & morales) time that they made a name for themselves?
is pacman the only fighter who has beaten fading legends?
has mayweather hasn't beaten a fading legend to be the
p4p king?
most of all, has mayweather hasn't beaten a fading legend
so as to retire with an unblemished record?
journalism is asking the right questions.
what you are doing is you are only
making pacman popular and
you are making the filipinos be recognized.
thanks though.
cassidy's opinion: they were past their prime.
this is too much to be repeated:
in a world where fame & recognition is in your number 1 list,
the name is what matters, the age is not recognized.
WHO BEAT WHO??
i am not blood thirsty, but it is the way it is.
the younger lion overpowers the old lions.
i do not know barrera & morales' boxing history but let me say that
is these two legends hasn't fought fading legends during
their (barrera & morales) time that they made a name for themselves?
is pacman the only fighter who has beaten fading legends?
has mayweather hasn't beaten a fading legend to be the
p4p king?
most of all, has mayweather hasn't beaten a fading legend
so as to retire with an unblemished record?
journalism is asking the right questions.
what you are doing is you are only
making pacman popular and
you are making the filipinos be recognized.
thanks though.
To ilosstopacmancoziamold... Thanks for the note back. Well, if you don't know the records of Barrera and Morales, then there is not much I can say to you. You just want it all one way. You would just prefer that every journalist says Pac Man is the best ever and leave it at that. So that's where we'll leave it... Of course Morales and Barrera beat old fighters on their own march to greatness. But no one is saying Morales deserved to be in the hall of fame or at the top of the P4P list because he beat a future hall-of-famer Daniel Zaragoza at the end of Zaragoza's career. Just like no one saying that Rocky Marciano is great because he knocked out a shot Joe Louis and Larry Holmes is great because he knocked out a faded Muhammad Ali .... Just admit it, you are not interested in debating you just want everyone to say that Pac Man is great, no questions asked.. You know what? He is a great fighter. But he is not the be-all, end-all of boxing. Please do yourself a favor and go back and look at the fighters that Mayweather easily defeated -- Hatton, De La Hoya, Baldomir, Judah, Gatti and then go back and look further when he was even younger -- Jose Luis Castillo, Diego Corrales, Angel Manfredy, Genaro Hernandez... You look up the records and you tell me who was better -- Pac Man or Mayweather???? Are these the right questions to ask? If not, please tell me what are the right questions?
the four questions in my last note is not what i am saying
is the right question. i wrote them to express that pacman
is not the only fighter who had beaten fading legend.
pacman is an excellent fighter but not the all time great.
the right question is a question
that will not make your subject look irrelevant and ridiculous
to quote zdrx.
if i will answer your questions about boxing's greatness
we will only go too far. i do not care who is the p4p king.
what i am saying in all the notes that i had is that
in the realm of greatness the name is what matters and
age is not recognized (we all knew that).
i also give credit to marquez for beating casamayor,
i don't give a damn on age.
if i will be age conscious then let the other filipinos
in the other forums them telling back a pacloser beat an old guy
also join your forum.
i am not saying that all journalists say pacman is the best ever,
you made that not me.
i'm only in the beating fading legends?? thing.
To iloss2pacmancoziamold ... yes you are right.. every fighter needs great names on his record and Pac Man does have them .. no arguement there .. I'm not trying to make Pac Man look irrelevant ... If he were irrelevant, I wouldn't be writing about him and all these people wouldn't be commenting about him ... He is very relevant.
Cassidy do you consider Hopkins is a faded fighter?
Barrera was on the P4P list when he lost to pacquiao. Is Barrera a faded fighter during that time? Morales won the first fight, is he faded fighter too? I'm not saying that Pacquiao can bit everybody I even think that Oscar will win this fight but I will still pick pacquiao.
ROBERT I'D LIKE TO COMMENT ON YOUR "STATEMENTS":
1) every fighter needs great names on his record and Pac Man does have them...no argument there..
COMMENT: ....but you forgot "FADED"(your favorite label)
2) I'm not trying trying to make Pac Man look irrelevant..
COMMENT: ...yes you are not TRYING, because you are already DOING it. (see evidence below)
3) If he were irrelevant, I wouldn't be writing about him
COMMENT: ...maybe. Perhaps you won't write about a fighter you don't know. But that's no assurance. Remember those two you vote for?
4) He is very relevant.
COMMENT: That's the reason why you downgrade and discredit his achievements. (see evidence below)
EVIDENCE:
A) Does Manny deserve to be there (p4p king) to begin with? (then whose your choice)?
B) Just remember that his biggest wins have come against FADED superstars Erik Morales and Marco Antonio Barrera (forgot 29 y.o. Ledwaba)?
C) Manny is there by DEFAULT, a fighter TO FILL THE VOID when Floyd Mayweather jr. retired. (you won't mention successor as if he don't deserve the throne.)
D) Is Manny there for lack of a better idea? ( As if Pacman was there by mistake).
YOU KNOW ROBERT IT'S OK WITH US FILIPINOS, IF YOU CRITICIZE PACMAN OR COMMENT ON SOMETHING WRONG WITH BOXING. BUT YOU HAVE TO DO IT RIGHT BECAUSE AS A WRITER YOU HAVE THE DUTY TO BE RESPONSIBLE. IT'S ALSO OK WITH US IF YOU WON'T RECOGNIZE OR DON'T GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE. IT'S YOUR SICK AND PERSONAL CHOICE ANYWAY, AND THEREFORE NOT IMPORTANT. BUT WE CANNOT ALLOW YOU TO MAKE OTHER PEOPLE, FOR NO APPARENT REASON, LOOK RIDICULOUS. WE CAN NOT LET IT PASS. IF YOU WANT TO MEET OR JUST EVEN SEE A STUPID PERSON, GO IN FRONT OF THE NEAREST MIRROR, YOU'LL FIND HIM THERE.
its confusing why mr. cassidy has been insisting this article to be a debate or a dialogue of some sort when he himself started a very biased premise and arguments inking discredit to the pacman's place in the highest echelons of professional boxing?
to my mind, should it be rather proper to begin a neutral thesis if your purpose was truly to initiate a debate?
certainly, yours was a multitude of lambast mate.
its inevitable that the legion of pacfans would react strongly, lest violently, given the tenor of your claims.
my respect for you mate. good luck.
No offense to Oscar but his days (as a champ) are numbered. Manny will put that question to rest.
ha ha ha!!!!!
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